Elizabeth Raine Auction

[Kaputt]

I forgot about that. I bet the bidding fees were the only reason she did it in the first place (well, that and the attention), and she never actually intended to go through with it at all.

I'm sure she hoped she'd get more than 27 bids though.

She was getting bids before she posted her face, though, right? It was so incredibly stupid to post her face. That immediately outed her and put her medical career in jeopardy.

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[DocVapor]

She was getting bids before she posted her face, though, right? It was so incredibly stupid to post her face. That immediately outed her and put her medical career in jeopardy.

Yes. But how many? Maybe she showed her face in an effort to drum up more bids? I have no idea. Unless she logs onto SDN and proves her identity and her though processes, this is all wild conjecture.

 

[Lucca]

Well, some man out there is 801,000 dollars richer.

Also who the hell cares what she does with her body. There are worse, less professional things she could be doing off the clock like being inebriated/high on duty. I can understand why auctioning your body is unbecoming of a medical professional but then womanizing should be just as frowned upon. God who cares.

 

[croak]

Maybe the TV appearances, book deal, and movie option will suffice. Medicine in the US in these times? Ha. Prostitution and a walk-on Oprah, an reappearing on the fuzzy Kardashians may be the ticket. However, being an Oz, she seems to have this gig wrapped up very nicely. That's called "good representation." —She's managed to capture enough media attention to write her own ticket. Seriously, medicine in America, today? Please.

 

[MedWonk]

I forgot about that. I bet the bidding fees were the only reason she did it in the first place (well, that and the attention), and she never actually intended to go through with it at all.

I'm sure she hoped she'd get more than 27 bids though.

Must've been the sharp knees.

 

[coffeesnob]

http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/elizabeth-raine-auction-canceled/

She's lying. I bet she is just pretending like the auction got called off to please her med school administration. She probably is still getting the money from the highest bidder in exchange for sex somehow. Now she can do whatever she wants without media attention/school pressure.

OR

She is just really, really dumb. She is acting like she didn't see these coming after revealing her face?

I think she's tricking everyone here. Now she is famous, has received global attention, gets to continue MD/phD, pockets 800k… Win win win win situation. Crafty b-word

 

[Arkangeloid]

Oh wow, I haven't really paid much attention to this since the first day it came out. Since she's a US student, I'd say it's worthy of dismissal. I mean, prostitution is prostitution from the US perspective- If some male med student wrote about his love of overseas prostitutes openly in the on the web, he'd probably be dismissed.

Yeah, this is what I heard too. I was considering patronizing a prostitute on one of our medical mission trips abroad, but I talked to one of my close friends about it, and he said it would be grounds for dismissal, so I decided against it.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Sorry but it's absolutely valid to get her on a professionalism charge, as her actions of prostitution reflect on the profession as a whole. Medicine is a relatively conservative profession. People will hold those who hold people's lives in their hands or save their lives (physicians) to a higher standard than they do their auto mechanic.

Not valid at all. If it was, then 60% of the behaviors of med students would also be valid grounds for professionalism charges. She chooses to sleep with someone for money. So what? How is it any different than half the first-year class gets sloshed and hooking up after every test? How is it different from students sleeping with professors or hooking up on mission trips? If we're going to kick people out for professionalism related to sexual behavior, then the rule should apply to everyone.

Wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing was some sort of social experiment for her MD/PhD project.

Wouldn't surprise me either. Probably the smartest conjecture.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Not valid at all. If it was, then 60% of the behaviors of med students would also be valid grounds for professionalism charges. She chooses to sleep with someone for money. So what? How is it any different than half the first-year class gets sloshed and hooking up after every test? How is it different from students sleeping with professors or hooking up on mission trips? If we're going to kick people out for professionalism related to sexual behavior, then the rule should apply to everyone.

Because Raine's actions are illegal.

Also, I'm not sure where this hooking up happens, but certainly not at our school. If it did, then over 20% of our men are homosexual, because there are far more men than women.

 

[DermViser]

Not valid at all. If it was, then 60% of the behaviors of med students would also be valid grounds for professionalism charges. She chooses to sleep with someone for money. So what? How is it any different than half the first-year class gets sloshed and hooking up after every test? How is it different from students sleeping with professors or hooking up on mission trips? If we're going to kick people out for professionalism related to sexual behavior, then the rule should apply to everyone.

Drinking or having sex in one's privacy of one's home doesn't make one unprofessional. And you can bet if a student is sleeping with a professor and it's brought to the attention of medical school administration, both will be in trouble, with the professor being in more trouble since he is an employee of the institution. Such a relationship can easily turn into a sexual harassment claim, which brings liability for the institution itself. The same reason high school teachers can't have relations with their students even if that person is 18 yrs. old.

Get one thing clear, this has NOTHING to do with her having sex. This has everything to do with her engaging in what is effectively prostitution, which is why she said it would take place in Australia.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Because Raine's actions are illegal

No, it isn't.

Also, I'm not sure where this hooking up happens, but certainly not at our school. If it did, then over 20% of our men are homosexual, because there are far more men than women.

Trust me, it's happening. This isn't Little House on the Prairie.

Drinking or having sex in one's privacy of one's home doesn't make one unprofessional

I wasn't talking about drinking in the privacy of one's home. That isn't where post-exam drinking happens. Or are pub crawls not a thing at your school? As for having sex in the privacy of one's home, that's what she was planning to do, no?

And you can bet if a student is sleeping with a professor and it's brought to the attention of medical school administration, both will be in trouble, with the professor being in more trouble since he is an employee of the institution

Ok, seriously, do you think people don't know this happens?

Such a relationship can easily turn into a sexual harassment claim, which brings liability for the institution itself

Yes, I'm well aware of that. That isn't the issue.

Get one thing clear, this has NOTHING to do with her having sex. This has everything to do with her engaging in what is effectively prostitution, which is why she said it would take place in Australia.

Right, in Australia, where her actions are legal. So again, how is this unprofessional?

 

[DermViser]

No, it isn't.



Trust me, it's happening. This isn't Little House on the Prairie.



I wasn't talking about drinking in the privacy of one's home. That isn't where post-exam drinking happens. Or are pub crawls not a thing at your school? As for having sex in the privacy of one's home, that's what she was planning to do, no?



Ok, seriously, do you think people don't know this happens?



Yes, I'm well aware of that. That isn't the issue.



Right, in Australia, where her actions are legal. So again, how is this unprofessional?

Again - drinking at a bar is not unprofessional. Unless, you're having sex in public - having sex isn't unprofessional. She was going to have sex in one's home after a monetary transaction. That = prostitution. Like I said, if a professor sleeps with a student and this is brought formally to the attention of medical school administration they will take action. Again, did you miss the part where I said professionalism has nothing to do with the legal standard?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Again - drinking at a bar is not unprofessional

Drinking and getting sloshed are two different things.

Unless, you're having sex in public - having sex isn't unprofessional. She was going to have sex in one's home after a monetary transaction. That = prostitution

I fail to see how legal prostitution is unprofessional, unless one is on the clock.

Like I said, if a professor sleeps with a student and this is brought formally to the attention of medical school administration they will take action. Again, did you miss the part where I said professionalism has nothing to do with the legal standard?

I'm not arguing legal standard except in that the school doesn't have it to fall back on to make their professionalism case. I'm saying that professors DO sleep students and everyone, including administration, knows this happens, just as they know that half of any given class will hook up and trade partners throughout the years.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I'm not arguing legal standard except in that the school doesn't have it to fall back on to make their professionalism case. I'm saying that professors DO sleep students and everyone, including administration, knows this happens, just as they know that half of any given class will hook up and trade partners throughout the years.

Look, I'm not sure what school you go to, but at our school, most professors are over 3 times the age of their students. I can't possibly imagine them sleeping with each other.

 

[DermViser]

Drinking and getting sloshed are two different things.



I fail to see how legal prostitution is unprofessional, unless one is on the clock.



I'm not arguing legal standard except in that the school doesn't have it to fall back on to make their professionalism case. I'm saying that professors DO sleep students and everyone, including administration, knows this happens, just as they know that half of any given class will hook up and trade partners throughout the years.

Again, getting sloshed is not unprofessional. Prostitution is not legal in this country. She was going to participate in prostitution in Australia only to avert legal consequences here. Medical students having sex with eachother is neither illegal nor unprofessional.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Look, I'm not sure what school you go to, but at our school, most professors are over 3 times the age of their students. I can't possibly imagine them sleeping with each other.

Yes, and you didn't think your classmates hooked up either.

Again, getting sloshed is not unprofessional. Prostitution is not legal in this country. She was going to participate in prostitution in Australia only to avert legal consequences here. Medical students having sex with eachother is neither illegal nor unprofessional.

Why is it unprofessional to exchange sex for money in a country where it's legal, yet it's not unprofessional to get sloshed or play musical beds? Explain the difference.

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah, this is what I heard too. I was considering patronizing a prostitute on one of our medical mission trips abroad, but I talked to one of my close friends about it, and he said it would be grounds for dismissal, so I decided against it.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Yes, and you didn't think your classmates hooked up either.

Many women in our class don't even drink or party, let alone "hook up." Of the women who do, the super buff dudes in the class have a monopoly over them.

Why is it unprofessional to exchange sex for money in a country where it's legal, yet it's not unprofessional to get sloshed or play musical beds? Explain the difference.

Musical beds,and I'm always eliminated first...forever alone...

 

[DermViser]

Why is it unprofessional to exchange sex for money in a country where it's legal, yet it's not unprofessional to get sloshed or play musical beds? Explain the difference.

Let me explain this again.

• Getting intoxicated is neither illegal (unless you sit in a car and start driving) as alcohol is not an illegal substance. Drinking is a common activity among human beings.
• Having sex is not illegal nor unprofessional as that is what human beings do. Sex is a common activity among human beings.

Engaging in prostitution is illegal in this country, and you're not absolved of the ethical or professional implications just bc you choose a different venue in a different country. If you are involved in having sex with minors in Thailand through child trafficking, you can be arrested here for that crime.

The threshold for professionalism is not the legality of it. Good grief, it's like you're purposefully being obtuse.

 

[Dmr6186]

Good grief, it's like you're purposefully being obtuse.

Thank you.

As students, we represent the school. The school has EVERY right to have the desire to be portrayed in a certain manner. They will have no problem canning you if you deviate from their standards. My school stressed to us over and over again during orientation to act properly in the public eye, and that if pictures are being taken and being put on Facebook, to not look like you're in some obviously drunken state.

This girl was clearly brilliant and supposedly good looking, and had her entire present life taken care of for her. Her life was set. But she wanted more. She was willing to defy the very school that gave her an opportunity people would do anything to have. That says a lot about her true character. Would you want this type of person as your doctor?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Let me explain this again.
Getting intoxicated is neither illegal (unless you sit in a car and start driving) as alcohol is not an illegal substance. Drinking is a common activity among human beings.
Having sex is not illegal nor unprofessional as that is what human beings do. Sex is a common activity among human beings

Ah, so the fine line is whether or not it's a common activity. If it's common, it's not unprofessional. If it's not, it's unprofessional. Got it.

Engaging in prostitution is illegal in this country, and you're not absolved of the ethical or professional implications just bc you choose a different venue in a different country

So if someone smokes pot on spring break in Amsterdam (or Colorado), they should be dismissed when they return to school in Louisiana? Considering what she's doing is legal in the country in which she does it on her own time, I don't see how the school is justified in reprimanding her, let alone dismissing her. Will they? Probably. Should they? Absolutely not.

If you are involved in having sex with minors in Thailand through child trafficking, you can be arrested here for that crime. The threshold for professionalism is not the legality of it

Are you seriously comparing this to child sex trafficking??? Seriously? That's the most absurd comparison I've read on this site in a very long time.

Good grief, it's like you're purposefully being obtuse.

That's funny because I was thinking the exact same thing about you.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Thank you.

As students, we represent the school

Only if we mention the school. As human beings, we're our OWN people who happen to PAY for a medical education. Unless we have a banner on our bodies with our school name, we do not represent the school in our own time.

The school has EVERY right to have the desire to be portrayed in a certain manner

Ah, MS1 syndrome. I remember it well.

That says a lot about her true character. Would you want this type of person as your doctor?

Someone remind me. Is it Burnett's Law that's being invoked here or does it not count when it's not directed at a specific poster but rather a public figure?

 

[Dmr6186]

Only if we mention the school. As human beings, we're our OWN people who happen to PAY for a medical education. Unless we have a banner on our bodies with our school name, we do not represent the school in our own time.

I think it's safe to say that if people know who you are, they will find out the school you go to. It's only a matter of time. In the case of this girl, it was eventually revealed but soon omitted for her protection. The school doesn't want this, and why should they? It's their right, just as it's her right to prostitute herself in another country. They can say, "We don't care about your money. We can fill your spot with someone who will represent us how we want." As humans, they OWN their school. It's not her school. It's a service she is receiving through money, but they can terminate the exchange for unprofessional reasons. Why should they have to tolerate behavior they find repulsive?

How about a very un-extreme comparison: Some jobs don't allow moonlighting. You may not like the rule, so you get a 2nd job anyway. 1st job eventually finds out you've been moonlighting. Even though moonlighting isn't illegal, they still have the right to fire you because you broke their policy.

EDIT: Or another simple comparison: Employers use Facebook before hiring an applicant to get a possible idea of who they are outside of work. In some instances, they come across applicants as wild partiers, promiscuous, etc. Employer has every right to deny the applicant a position at his company based on what he found. Even though the applicant did nothing illegal in those pictures, it does not matter. You may not like it, but again, it doesn't matter what you like or don't like. It's their choice, not yours or anyone else's.

Ah, MS1 syndrome. I remember it well.

You're telling me. Less than 3 weeks to go.

Someone remind me. Is it Burnett's Law that's being invoked here?

Godwin's law is what you're referring to.

 

[DermViser]

Ah, so the fine line is whether or not it's a common activity. If it's common, it's not unprofessional. If it's not, it's unprofessional. Got it.

So if someone smokes pot on spring break in Amsterdam (or Colorado), they should be dismissed when they return to school in Louisiana? Considering what she's doing is legal in the country in which she does it on her own time, I don't see how the school is justified in reprimanding her, let alone dismissing her. Will they? Probably. Should they? Absolutely not.

Are you seriously comparing this to child sex trafficking??? Seriously? That's the most absurd comparison I've read on this site in a very long time.

That's funny because I was thinking the exact same thing about you.

Again - having sex and getting drunk are neither illegal nor unethical.

For right now, marijuana is illegal. If you get drug tested, as you will when you're an intern and you are found to be positive for marijuana, the hospital has every right to kick you out. Before entering 3rd year rotations, some hospitals make you undergo a drug test. If you are positive for mj, they have every right for you not to set foot in their facilities for rotations, which bc you are then unable to complete the curriculum, the med school has every right to kick you out. You don't have a "right" to be a doctor.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I think it's safe to say that if people know who you are, they will find out the school you go to. It's only a matter of time. In the case of this girl, it was eventually revealed but soon omitted for her protection. The school doesn't want this, and why should they? It's their right, just as it's her right to prostitute herself in another country

What is their right? She didn't reveal the name of the school nor did she reveal her own name. The school's rights shouldn't overstep the rights of individuals to do what they want with their free time.

They can say, "We don't care about your money. We can fill your spot with someone who will represent us how we want."

Hon, that isn't what they say. Trust me, you'll learn in your later years. To begin with, they can't fill the seat. It's an MD/PhD position. It's not like qualified transfers are just lining up from other schools. Secondly, if it was as easy as the school just wanting someone they like better, then I dare say a good percentage of every class from every med school would be replaced. Schools dismiss for unprofessional behavior. They don't dismiss for someone not representing them how they want.

As humans, they OWN their school. It's not her school. It's a service she is receiving through money, but they can terminate the exchange for unprofessional reasons. Why should they have to tolerate behavior they find repulsive?

Because it's a slippery slope. Some schools may find homosexuality repulsive. Do they have the right to "terminate the exchange" because their student isn't representing them how they liked? Some schools find abortion repulsive. Do they have the right to "terminate the exchange"?

How about a very un-extreme comparison: Some jobs don't allow moonlighting. You may not like the rule, so you get a 2nd job anyway. 1st job eventually finds out you've been moonlighting. Even though moonlighting isn't illegal, they still have the right to fire you because you broke their policy

Unless this school had a policy against legal prostitution, I fail to see how the above is relevant. Had this been in their policy, then fine. But it wasn't. What they'll get her on is the vague professionalism (and make no mistake, they will eventually get her on it), but it doesn't mean they're justified in doing so. Totally irrelevant to your example.

EDIT: Or another simple comparison: Employers use Facebook before hiring an applicant to get a possible idea of who they are outside of work. In some instances, they come across applicants as wild partiers, promiscuous, etc. Employer has every right to deny the applicant a position at his company based on what he found. Even though the applicant did nothing illegal in those pictures, it does not matter. You may not like it, but again, it doesn't matter what you like or don't like. It's their choice, not yours or anyone else's

Again, totally irrelevant to this discussion. In that case, you're talking about an employer denying an APPLICANT. A med school has every right to deny admission to someone like this. BUT once they've accepted the person, they are entering into a "contract" with the person for 4 years (or 7-8 in her case) and they should not be allowed to terminate that contract when the person does something they don't like.

Again - having sex and getting drunk are neither illegal nor unethical

Just because you keep saying something doesn't mean it's true. You have yet to explain why having sex with multiple partners is any more ethical than what she's doing besides saying that it's a common human practice.

For right now, marijuana is illegal. If you get drug tested, as you will when you're an intern and you are found to be positive for marijuana, the hospital has every right to kick you out

Marijuana is legal in CO and that's what I was talking about. If you smoke pot in CO on your time and the pot is out of your system (i.e. not on a drug test), the hospital does not have every right to kick you out.

Before entering 3rd year rotations, some hospitals make you undergo a drug test. If you are positive for mj, they have every right for you not to set foot in their facilities for rotations, which bc you are then unable to complete the curriculum, the med school has every right to kick you out. You don't have a "right" to be a doctor.

This is the flaw in your argument. No one said you had a right to be a doctor, but you DO have a right to be treated fairly once you're accepted to a doctoral program. Fairness means not being dismissed because the school disagrees with your PERSONAL choices that in no way affect your education or the education of others and safety of patients.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dmr6186]

What is their right? She didn't reveal the name of the school nor did she reveal her own name. The school's rights shouldn't overstep the rights of individuals to do what they want with their free time.

By publicly displaying yourself, it goes beyond doing something in your own private time. It involves very large numbers of people, and the school's name will get splayed all over the place. She isn't an island unto herself. The world doesn't work like that. We are talking about the Internet here. And again, it's the school's right to dismiss her for flaunting herself the way she did. She has it coming. We could all smell it light years away. She will possibly get kicked out, and there is literally nothing she can do about it. Why? Because it's the school's right.

Hon, that isn't what they say. Trust me, you'll learn in your later years. To begin with, they can't fill the seat. It's an MD/PhD position. It's not like qualified transfers are just lining up from other schools. Secondly, if it was as easy as the school just wanting someone they like better, then I dare say a good percentage of every class from every med school would be replaced. Schools dismiss for unprofessional behavior. They don't dismiss for someone not representing them how they want.

I know it's an MD/PhD position, and it is way safer to say they can fill the position much more than not. I'm not saying people are lining out the door. However, all they need is one. And misrepresentation can be deemed as unprofessional. I'm not saying this for my own health. This is how schools this day and age operate.

Because it's a slippery slope. Some schools may find homosexuality repulsive. Do they have the right to "terminate the exchange" because their student isn't representing them how they liked? Some schools find abortion repulsive. Do they have the right to "terminate the exchange"?

Sexuality is protected under law and abortion is legal. So, no, they don't. Prostituting yourself over the Internet isn't protected by law, so they can terminate the exchange.

Unless this school had a policy against legal prostitution, I fail to see how the above is relevant. Had this been in their policy, then fine. But it wasn't. What they'll get her on is the vague professionalism (and make no mistake, they will eventually get her on it), but it doesn't mean they're justified in doing so. Totally irrelevant to your example.

I agree with what you said above; it's a slippery slope in this day because this new generation needs institutions to spell out every single thing that attendees can and can't do anymore. Common sense is literally lost in this country and it's sad. I'm sure the school will draft up a list of rules for future classes in order to properly and legally nail students on behavior they deem unacceptable and nip it in the bud. There's a reason why schools don't specifically list every single behavior known to man. It's cumbersome for everyone, and they trust students to make the right choices. But this case proves that students won't be trusted with the choices of their behaviors. So more rules, yay.

Again, totally irrelevant to this discussion. In that case, you're talking about an employer denying an APPLICANT. A med school has every right to deny admission to someone like this. BUT once they've accepted the person, they are entering into a "contract" with the person for 4 years (or 7-8 in her case) and they should not be allowed to terminate that contract when the person does something they don't like.

There may be a "contract" but there are also Honor Codes, Codes of Conduct, etc. We pay them, we are given the privilege to follow their rules and pass their classes to get a piece of paper saying we did a good job.

 

[Dmr6186]

This is the flaw in your argument. No one said you had a right to be a doctor, but you DO have a right to be treated fairly once you're accepted to a doctoral program. Fairness means not being dismissed because the school disagrees with your PERSONAL choices that in no way affect your education or the education of others and safety of patients.

Schools make rules all the time that don't affect our education, the education of others, or the safety of patients. This is nothing new. For example, LECOM DO school is notorious for their strict dress code. Many students don't believe it is fair. They believe dressing has absolutely no bearing on education. And I agree with them, to an extent, as long as the way people are dressing are not distracting. But does it matter what we think? No, it doesn't. Does it matter if we think the rule is fair or not? [Insert rhetorical answer here]. Why? Because the school believes it does matter, and that it fosters a more professional environment, makes for better doctors, yadda yadda yadda.

The school can easily come to the conclusion that what Raine is doing will hurt the reputation of their program, which can hurt the trust of patients that are being entrusted by these future doctors graduating from their institution, further damaging the esteemed doctor-patient relationship. It doesn't matter whether we think it's true or not. It matters what they think. They are in charge, not us.

People have even gotten in trouble by their schools with how they acted on this very website! Why do you think anonymity is so important to maintain? Because if you screw up, you could be sitting in Academic Affairs the next day.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's why I'm never going to change my status. That goes for FB or any other social media. Honestly, the only people I meet that I plan on telling I'm a med student or physician to are my patients. I can already spot the douchey kids in my class by all their med school related crap.

Lol one guy posted a pic of himself in a white coat and said " just call me dr xxx ". I lold.

Non-student4life

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

She will possibly get kicked out, and there is literally nothing she can do about it. Why? Because it's the school's right

According to whom, you? You're using the word "right" an awful lot, which usually means you don't know how to accurately apply it.

I know it's an MD/PhD position, and it is way safer to say they can fill the position much more than not. I'm not saying people are lining out the door. However, all they need is one

That isn't how medical education works. If a 2nd year dropped out, the school doesn't just plant an ad in the paper for a transfer. That isn't how it's done. More often than not, when a school loses a student, that seat is vacant for the duration. Again, something you'll learn in your later years.

I'm not saying this for my own health. This is how schools this day and age operate

Thank you. As a graduating fourth year, I desperately needed to be schooled on the climate of medical education in the U.S.

Sexuality is protected under law and abortion is legal

Legality is the excuse? Well, uh, prostitution in Australia is legal as well, as is her auction on the internet. So there goes that distinction.

Prostituting yourself over the Internet isn't protected by law, so they can terminate the exchange

But it's legal, just like abortion.

It's cumbersome for everyone, and they trust students to make the right choices. But this case proves that students won't be trusted with the choices of their behaviors

Wow, I'd get a nosebleed if I was sitting up that high and looking down my nose at everyone below me. Kudos to you for doing it without flinching.

There may be a "contract" but there are also Honor Codes, Codes of Conduct, etc

None of which apply here. Better check that student handbook.

We pay them, we are given the privilege to follow their rules and pass their classes to get a piece of paper saying we did a good job.

LOLOL, careful there. Now you sound more like a pre-med than an MS1.

Schools make rules all the time that don't affect our education, the education of others, or the safety of patients. This is nothing new. For example, LECOM DO school is notorious for their strict dress code. Many students don't believe it is fair. They believe dressing has absolutely no bearing on education. And I agree with them, to an extent, as long as the way people are dressing are not distracting. But does it matter what we think? No, it doesn't. Does it matter if we think the rule is fair or not? [Insert rhetorical answer here]. Why? Because the school believes it does matter, and that it fosters a more professional environment, makes for better doctors, yadda yadda yadda.

Again, totally irrelevant. That's a rule that's STATED in black and white. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

It doesn't matter whether we think it's true or not. It matters what they think. They are in charge, not us

When did I say it matters what I think? When did I say it doesn't matter what they think? NEVER. In fact, what I said numerous times is that she WILL face consequences for this, most likely dismissal. I'm saying that it isn't right, not that it isn't going to happen.

I'm going to agree to disagree. It's clear that no matter what, you're going to continue to cite irrelevant points. Your view of med school is through the prism of an MS1 (it's our privilege to follow their rules?) and I just don't have the energy to argue that.

 

[acapnial]

Actually, because marijuana's still illegal federally, hospitals and schools in Colorado can kick you out for smoking it, even if you're not high on the clock

 

[BobbyB]

Actually, because marijuana's still illegal federally, hospitals and schools in Colorado can kick you out for smoking it, even if you're not high on the clock

"To have a license to practice is a privilege, not a right, and public safety supersedes an individual physician," she said. "If we get more sophisticated in correlating levels with safety, our policy may change, but right now it's conservative and it's honestly to protect the public but also the physician from making errors."

this rationale can be used on prostitution or marijuana whether it is legal or illegal

 

[Dmr6186]

According to whom, you? You're using the word "right" an awful lot, which usually means you don't know how to accurately apply it.

So because I was speaking of the right of a school to make a decision, I don't know what the word means? That... doesn't make sense. But it's your "right" to think that!

That isn't how medical education works. If a 2nd year dropped out, the school doesn't just plant an ad in the paper for a transfer. That isn't how it's done. More often than not, when a school loses a student, that seat is vacant for the duration. Again, something you'll learn in your later years.

Ok, I see what you were getting at and you're right on that.

Legality is the excuse? Well, uh, prostitution in Australia is legal as well, as is her auction on the internet. So there goes that distinction.

Yes, those laws protect the individuals who are getting abortions or are homosexuals that you brought up earlier.

Also, they are protected... rights.

But it's legal, just like abortion.

But it's not protected under law. Therefore, the school can deal with it as they deem appropriate.

None of which apply here. Better check that student handbook.

You're kidding yourself if you believe schools don't think you represent them outside the classroom.

LOLOL, careful there. Now you sound more like a pre-med than an MS1.

Uh, no. And really, every quote I have is of you making a snarky comment because you have nothing intelligible to say. If you don't, then just skip over it. You don't have to reply to every phrase.

To me and to many others, education is a privilage. Whether it's medical school or just a regular high school education. It's this backwards country that adopted the belief that everything is a "right" and that nothing is sacred or earned anymore. No responsibility or accountability for our actions.

Driving is also a privilage, not a right. If you don't follow the rules, you lose your lisence. It's a simple concept.

I may sound like an "MS1" but you sound like someone who can't appreciate the opportunities that have been placed before herself.

Again, totally irrelevant. That's a rule that's STATED in black and white. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

And schools state in black and white rules of proper conduct and representation outside of the classroom. I used LECOM as an analogy.

When did I say it matters what I think? When did I say it doesn't matter what they think? NEVER. In fact, what I said numerous times is that she WILL face consequences for this, most likely dismissal. I'm saying that it isn't right, not that it isn't going to happen.

I'm going to agree to disagree. It's clear that no matter what, you're going to continue to cite irrelevant points. Your view of med school is through the prism of an MS1 (it's our privilege to follow their rules?) and I just don't have the energy to argue that.

It's fine to not like the school's actions against her. But there are standards that we are expected to adhere to. I don't see that changing anytime soon. But if you want it to change, become in charge of some influential institutions to make change the way you want it.

Again, it has nothing to do with being an MS1. Rather, it has everything to do with appreciating and being responsible with what I worked for. If you can't handle that, that's your "right"

 

[deleted500612]

Who the hell cares? I don't get the obsession Americans have with other people's personal lives. It was ridiculous when people were trying to impeach Bill Clinton for having an affair with Monica Lewinsky. Did it make him less of a good politician or administrator? I don't understand what the issue is. Why do we have three threads about this? You making another thread about this so you can preach your uneducated premed opinion to us from your soapbox is an example of making poor choices and is hypocritical.

I love how your knee-jerk reaction to any opinion you disagree with is to point to someone's alleged pre-med status as if that immediately nullifies any opinion they might have on any subject, even unrelated to medicine apparently. You don't know him or what his qualifications are. How do you know he is uneducated? Even if he was a pre-med, he might have a MA in ethics and be in his 30s for all you know. But yeah simply because you are in med school you must be more qualified to speak about prostitution, ethics, and any other subject that might arise in debate than any "pre-med" could possibly be.

And for the record the other thread got locked because people were posting personal information.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

i'm not going to read all these posts. I'm sure i am repeating something someone said. I think she should get kicked out since prostitution is illegal. So if you do something illegal then yeah maybe get kicked out of medical school. But what you do outside of medicine is your choice. I wouldn't mind working/or getting treated by a prostitute, as long as it doesn't affect the patients health who cares.

 

[Brain Bucket]

Thank you.

As students, we represent the school. The school has EVERY right to have the desire to be portrayed in a certain manner. They will have no problem canning you if you deviate from their standards. My school stressed to us over and over again during orientation to act properly in the public eye, and that if pictures are being taken and being put on Facebook, to not look like you're in some obviously drunken state.

This girl was clearly brilliant and supposedly good looking, and had her entire present life taken care of for her. Her life was set. But she wanted more. She was willing to defy the very school that gave her an opportunity people would do anything to have. That says a lot about her true character.

Your reasoning is faulty. The reason she would be canned is practical and has nothing to do with 'defiance' or 'character'. Most sane rules and laws have to do with practicality over justice/morality.

Would you want this type of person as your doctor?

I value competence above everything else in my physician.


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[CherryRedDracul]

This thread has become tl;dr, so sorry if this hasn't been posted yet, but ...

Elizabeth has pulled out (so the highest bidder won't be pulling out of her).

 

[GC1000]

I love how your knee-jerk reaction to any opinion you disagree with is to point to someone's alleged pre-med status as if that immediately nullifies any opinion they might have on any subject, even unrelated to medicine apparently. You don't know him or what his qualifications are. How do you know he is uneducated? Even if he was a pre-med, he might have a MA in ethics and be in his 30s for all you know. But yeah simply because you are in med school you must be more qualified to speak about prostitution, ethics, and any other subject that might arise in debate than any "pre-med" could possibly be.

And for the record the other thread got locked because people were posting personal information.

I couldn't agree with you more, it's obvious from @Psai 's posts, the first argumentative tool used is often an insult.

 

[GC1000]

This thread has become tl;dr, so sorry if this hasn't been posted yet, but ...

Elizabeth has pulled out (so the highest bidder won't be pulling out of her).

Clever play on words

 

[Mad Jack]

Only if we mention the school. As human beings, we're our OWN people who happen to PAY for a medical education.

First off, she is a MD/PhD student with a full ride that has no medical school debt and isn't paying for any of her education herself.

Second, being a student at a professional school is a privilege, not a right. Paying for school is part of what is expected, while following school policies in regard to public image is another. No school wants to graduate a student that later reflects poorly on them, as this can limit opportunities for future graduates.

Your attitude reminds me of every kid I've ever known that landed their first "real" job and was expected to meet certain behavioral expectations. "They don't own my life, I can do what I want, blah blah blah..." That isn't how it works. As a professional, you are accountable for everything you do that might reflect poorly on your employer, and can be fired for whatever reason they choose, so long as it's not some federally protected characteristic.

The same goes for med schools. They can kick you out for doing drugs that are perfectly legal in your state (marijuana in the case of states whee it is legal, or alcohol in the case of LUCOM), being an overt racist on the internet, getting a DUI, landing yourself in the news for something that paints you in an excessively bad light, really whatever circumstances they choose. You are no longer just a student, you are a professional in training. Act accordingly.

 

[Mad Jack]

I acknowledge that while in public I represent the medical profession, Columbia University and the College of Physicians and Surgeons and will comport myself responsibly.

This is taken from Columbia's Honor Code as an example. Advertising the auction, being national news, and hiring a publicist certainly means she was doing this in public, and thus representing her medical school while doing so.

Take a student that was doing a good thing, like raising funds for cancer, that ended up on the news. They are considered to be representing their school, even though they are doing this activity outside of class with no school involvement. The headlines will read, "Medical Student Raises Funds for Cancer," and there will probably be a comment from the school staff saying how great it is to have them as a student.

Now we have "Medical Student Auctions Virginity, Has Blog Calling Self *****." This is certainly not something the school wants representing them. You cannot pick and choose when you are representing a professional organization- good or bad, your public behavior reflects back on them.

As an aside, this girl really must have been a gunner. She's even taken attention whoring to its highest level.

 

[Dmr6186]

Your reasoning is faulty. The reason she would be canned is practical and has nothing to do with 'defiance' or 'character'. Most sane rules and laws have to do with practicality over justice/morality.

I value competence above everything else in my physician.

It has everything to do with defiance and character. She is a reflection of the school, especially since she ID'd herself as an MD/PhD student. The school will see her as someone who can't follow one of the simplest common sense rules of all: Don't be a prostitute because it's illegal here in the states. Even if she went into porn, where it IS legal, the school will still can her because again, she represents the school. How do you not see this?

It stands to reason that she will have trouble down the line of respecting others, especially ones in authority. That's why they don't tolerate this behavior. They are trying to breed future doctors who are in line with their mission and beliefs.

 

[Dmr6186]

I acknowledge that while in public I represent the medical profession, Columbia University and the College of Physicians and Surgeons and will comport myself responsibly.

This is taken from Columbia's Honor Code as an example. Advertising the auction, being national news, and hiring a publicist certainly means she was doing this in public, and thus representing her medical school while doing so.

Take a student that was doing a good thing, like raising funds for cancer, that ended up on the news. They are considered to be representing their school, even though they are doing this activity outside of class with no school involvement. The headlines will read, "Medical Student Raises Funds for Cancer," and there will probably be a comment from the school staff saying how great it is to have them as a student.

Now we have "Medical Student Auctions Virginity, Has Blog Calling Self *****." This is certainly not something the school wants representing them. You cannot pick and choose when you are representing a professional organization- good or bad, your public behavior reflects back on them.

As an aside, this girl really must have been a gunner. She's even taken attention whoring to its highest level.

Good post. But they won't take you seriously because your status says "Non-student."

 

[Brain Bucket]

It has everything to do with defiance and character. She is a reflection of the school, especially since she ID'd herself as an MD/PhD student. The school will see her as someone who can't follow one of the simplest common sense rules of all: Don't be a prostitute because it's illegal here in the states. Even if she went into porn, where it IS legal, the school will still can her because again, she represents the school. How do you not see this?

It stands to reason that she will have trouble down the line of respecting others, especially ones in authority. That's why they don't tolerate this behavior. They are trying to breed future doctors who are in line with their mission and beliefs.

You have a very naive worldview, which only experience will change. There's nothing wrong with it, just means that it'd be a waste of both our time to debate this.

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[Dmr6186]

You have a very naive worldview, which only experience will change. There's nothing wrong with it, just means that it'd be a waste of both our time to debate this.

Ah, naive. Except... that's what happens, and is happening, in the real world. Good counter-point.

 

[GC1000]

You have a very naive worldview, which only experience will change. There's nothing wrong with it, just means that it'd be a waste of both our time to debate this.

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There really isn't a debate, prostitution does not represent her school well and she made no attempt to conceal her identity. I highly doubt any md/phd program wants to see a headline analogous to this, "Duke MD PHD student decides not to go through with plans to transfer herself from virgin to literal ***** through an online auction."

That type of publicity brings the whole institution down.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Ah, naive. Except... that's what happens, and is happening, in the real world. Good counter-point.

This. The real world is "naive" as you call it, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that. If your actions and your beliefs run against society's group-think, defend your convictions when challenged if you must, or drop them. In a Utopian society, we could eat our cake and have it, too.

But we aren't living in Utopia. And you aren't guaranteed to come out victorious when you defend your beliefs. Whatever decision you make, understand there will be consequences, a mix of good and bad, oftentimes weighing toward one side more than the other.

Life it ain't easy.

 

[CarlosDanger]

.

 

[NontradCA]

This. The real world is "naive" as you call it, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that. If your actions and your beliefs run against society's group-think, defend your convictions when challenged if you must, or drop them. In a Utopian society, we could eat our cake and have it, too.

But we aren't living in Utopia. And you aren't guaranteed to come out victorious when you defend your beliefs. Whatever decision you make, understand there will be consequences, a mix of good and bad, oftentimes weighing toward one side more than the other.

Life it ain't easy.

But in this view, there's no incentive to do good for others. You might as well ride life to the fullest, doing whatever means necessary to get ahead...

Just don't get caught doing it. That's the moral of this story.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I acknowledge that while in public I represent the medical profession, Columbia University and the College of Physicians and Surgeons and will comport myself responsibly.

This is taken from Columbia's Honor Code as an example. Advertising the auction, being national news, and hiring a publicist certainly means she was doing this in public, and thus representing her medical school while doing so.

Take a student that was doing a good thing, like raising funds for cancer, that ended up on the news. They are considered to be representing their school, even though they are doing this activity outside of class with no school involvement. The headlines will read, "Medical Student Raises Funds for Cancer," and there will probably be a comment from the school staff saying how great it is to have them as a student.

Now we have "Medical Student Auctions Virginity, Has Blog Calling Self *****." This is certainly not something the school wants representing them. You cannot pick and choose when you are representing a professional organization- good or bad, your public behavior reflects back on them.

As an aside, this girl really must have been a gunner. She's even taken attention whoring to its highest level.

Agreed. As our school always tells us, "you represent the profession." And we are at a time when our profession is undergoing a huge PR crisis, where the public's image of our lives is diametrically different from our actual lives.

To that end, our school has ordered everyone to act professionally at all times. Hell, they even threaten people with professionalism reports if they are caught going too crazy at a party. I went to a strip club with a few dudes the other day, but didn't tell anyone, because some gunner girl (and they're all girls) might file a report against me.

 

[NontradCA]

Agreed. As our school always tells us, "you represent the profession." And we are at a time when our profession is undergoing a huge PR crisis, where the public's image of our lives is diametrically different from our actual lives.

To that end, our school has ordered everyone to act professionally at all times. Hell, they even threaten people with professionalism reports if they are caught going too crazy at a party. I went to a strip club with a few dudes the other day, but didn't tell anyone, because some gunner girl (and they're all girls) might file a report against me.

Know what I just realized. You take on the persona of Taj from Van Wilder.