Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

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A few years ago (maybe 2) RVU said they were going to create hundreds of residency spots in Colorodo and in the South West. Any news on that?
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current applicants must make decisions now and do not have the luxury to wait a couple years to see matches and board scores. How should this and other newer schools be compared? for-profit colleges in general have earned a poor reputation does the first for-profit DO school deserve to be filed in with them or is medical education or this particular school some how different?
 
From what I have gathered (from SDN and other sources) it seems that the Caribbean for-profit schools offer a pretty good education, at least as good as US schools. I mean, let's face it, US schools have some pretty crappy instructors, and many, many med schools don't go to class anyway. A lot of med school is self-taught. What puts one at a disadvantage by attended Caribbean schools, then, is not their quality of education, but the fact that, regardless of the Caribbean quality of education, Residency directors OFTEN DO discriminate against caribbean grads. However, that holds true for any IMGs, even if he/she went to the most prestigious (non-profit) school in some wealthy European nation.

Only time will tell if similar discrimination will affect Rocky Vista. I, for one, lean towards letting them have a shot, and when I apply, I will probably apply to Rocky Vista, but not as one of my top choices. (Well, who really knows what will by my top choices once I actually see the schools, talks with their people, etc?)

Rocky Vista's biggest crime, by the way, is not their for-profit status. Its that freaking name.
 
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NurWollen said:
From what I have gathered (from SDN and other sources) it seems that the Caribbean for-profit schools offer a pretty good education, at least as good as US schools. I mean, let's face it, US schools have some pretty crappy instructors, and many, many med schools don't go to class anyway. A lot of med school is self-taught. What puts one at a disadvantage by attended Caribbean schools, then, is not their quality of education, but the fact that, regardless of the Caribbean quality of education, Residency directors OFTEN DO discriminate against caribbean grads. However, that holds true for any IMGs, even if he/she went to the most prestigious (non-profit) school in some wealthy European nation.

Only time will tell if similar discrimination will affect Rocky Vista. I, for one, lean towards letting them have a shot, and when I apply, I will probably apply to Rocky Vista, but not as one of my top choices. (Well, who really knows what will by my top choices once I actually see the schools, talks with their people, etc?)

Rocky Vista's biggest crime, by the way, is not their for-profit status. Its that freaking name.
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Not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 
NurWollen said:
From what I have gathered (from SDN and other sources) it seems that the Caribbean for-profit schools offer a pretty good education, at least as good as US schools. I mean, let's face it, US schools have some pretty crappy instructors, and many, many med schools don't go to class anyway. A lot of med school is self-taught. What puts one at a disadvantage by attended Caribbean schools, then, is not their quality of education, but the fact that, regardless of the Caribbean quality of education, Residency directors OFTEN DO discriminate against caribbean grads. However, that holds true for any IMGs, even if he/she went to the most prestigious (non-profit) school in some wealthy European nation.

Only time will tell if similar discrimination will affect Rocky Vista. I, for one, lean towards letting them have a shot, and when I apply, I will probably apply to Rocky Vista, but not as one of my top choices. (Well, who really knows what will by my top choices once I actually see the schools, talks with their people, etc?)

Rocky Vista's biggest crime, by the way, is not their for-profit status. Its that freaking name.
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If you're serious, I don't think there is a single thing in your entire post that is right.
 
Instatewaiter said:
If you're serious, I don't think there is a single thing in your entire post that is right.
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Aw come on... you at least have to admit that the name sucks. But having never attended any medical school myseld, I will admit that I could be completely wrong about the other stuff.
 
cbrons said:
Who cares about for profit status. Lets see what their scores/match lists are in the next few years, compare them to scores/lists from new non-profit institutions and draw our conclusions. Until then, shut the **** up.
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I think PDs might care about the for-profit status. I'd imagine there wouldn't be too many students from RVU matching into competitive specialties.

I'm not saying that it's fair or unfair. RVU is a new school, a DO school, and a for-profit school. Without looking at long-term outcomes (at least 5-10 years from now, IMO), it'll be hard to see how this turns out for the students. With such long-term considerations in mind, I would be hesitant to attend this school over others (if I had a choice).
 
Anyone else wonder if this thread will actually ever die or just keep getting revived every few months or so?
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
Anyone else wonder if this thread will actually ever die or just keep getting revived every few months or so?
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EVEN if the match list comes out and every graduating MS4 matched into Derm, Ortho and Rad, people will still revive this thread somehow.
 
isn't the new MD school opening up in fl, florida atlantic university also supposed to be "for-profit?"
 
patel2 said:
isn't the new MD school opening up in fl, florida atlantic university also supposed to be "for-profit?"
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Palm Beach Medical College is the one in FL that's going through the review process but for all intents and purposes is a for profit model.
 
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TheSeanieB said:
I am from Colorado and ultimately decided not to apply to RVU this year. The school has a lot of red flags. The main one for me was the lack of effort towards creating residency programs in CO. The school has been "all talk" about this since they opened. However, they are still accepting 180+ students, without any action towards this. There is a already a shortage of osteopathic residency programs (2 for every 5 graduates) and RVU is in the process of flooding the system with as many students as the governing bodies will allow them to accept.
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Please educate yourself before you speak. They do not accept 180+, the class size is around 160. And why would they start a residency program before they graduate any students? The plan is to have a couple programs as soon as the first class graduates, that way their students can fill up these residencies!
 
SUPERMAN128 said:
Please educate yourself before you speak. They do not accept 180+, the class size is around 160. And why would they start a residency program before they graduate any students? The plan is to have a couple programs as soon as the first class graduates, that way their students can fill up these residencies!
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To be fair that would be in ~1 more year. One would think if they were opening residencies they would be going through some sort of accredidation process and if that was the case you know Rocky Vista would be letting people know about it.
 
Doing things like building a medical center on campus, pumping a bunch of AOA residencies into CO, etc, would have really put a totally different spin on RVU IMO. It seems like they either a. missed the opportunity (costs, time, headaches, etc) or b. really had no intention of doing so or were simply following the pathway of some of the other new DO schools that seem to fill up classes and cash deposits wayyyy before considering rotations/residency positions. Like someone else said, maybe this will happen in the future, but it seems like there should be more concrete plans now if that's the case.

OH and if that 'nursing school' on the proposed medical center campus involves an NP program or DNP program ... another layer of serious heat is going to fall down on RVU.
 
TheSeanieB said:
An administrator of an allo residency program in CO said that they would accept applications from RVU students. However, several insiders, who I was on a more conversational basis with, said that they were really not looking for RVU students.


The residency problem is just the tip of the iceberg with RVU.
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I'm not sure which residency program you contacted, but I know that Colorado Family Medicine residencies program has an office at RVU. Last year they shot a infomercial for their program at RVU with some current residents and some RVU students.

Check it out at http://www.cofammedresidencies.org/

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNurXngnjic
 
TheSeanieB said:
In "educating" myself on RVU, I contacted the admissions office starting two years ago, spoke to several students attending the school (not the students in the admissions office), and spoke to several people involved in the residency programs at University of Colorado Hospital and Denver Health.

...

An administrator of an allo residency program in CO said that they would accept applications from RVU students. However, several insiders, who I was on a more conversational basis with, said that they were really not looking for RVU students.
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I had the exact same experience. I am from CO and really wanted to stay at home for medical school but the people I talked to at UCH and Denver Health (on both official and unofficial terms) said the same thing- that residencies there would prefer to see the name of a school they know and trust. I still definitely believe in the students of RVU- I know a few of them as friends and know they will be great colleagues later on- but also know 100% that they face an uphill battle if they want to stay in CO for residency.
 
TheSeanieB said:
You are correct. I meant to write that RVU accepts 160+ students each year. They are only approved for 160. However, they are able to get it up to 162 or 163 by making students from the previous year repeat their first year (surprise they get more $$).
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Gosh, you mean the for-profit school has students repeat just like the non-profit ones? Color me shocked!


The residency problem is just the tip of the iceberg with medicine
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FTFY

I have nothing really for nor against RVU. I honestly couldn't care less about the school. I honestly don't even care about for-profit vs non-profit status (there are plenty of non-profit entities that act like a for-profit entity). However, at least if you're going to sling mud at the school (and I will neither say that mud should or shouldn't be thrown), at least make sure that it's actually specific to that school instead of, "ZOMG STUDENTS ARE REPEATING FIRST YEAR."
 
TheSeanieB said:
I'm not sure what the policies are at other medical schools. However, I think it is interesting that the main topic of this latest string of posts has been the residency problems associated with RVU and how the admissions office makes optimistic statements that are misleading. This seems very relevant to people who are considering going $350K into debt to go there. Yet, you are trying to make the conversation about something that is not relevant.
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The cheerleading going on here is fascinating. :corny:
 
TheSeanieB said:
I'm not sure what the policies are at other medical schools. However, I think it is interesting that the main topic of this latest string of posts has been the residency problems associated with RVU and how the admissions office makes optimistic statements that are misleading. This seems very relevant to people who are considering going $350K into debt to go there. Yet, you are trying to make the conversation about something that is not relevant.
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There are no residency problems with RVU...why? They have yet to put anyone in residency, everything is pure speculation at this point. And for the love of all that is holy, where did you get 350K from?
 
TheSeanieB said:
I'm not sure what the policies are at other medical schools. However, I think it is interesting that the main topic of this latest string of posts has been the residency problems associated with RVU and how the admissions office makes optimistic statements that are misleading. This seems very relevant to people who are considering going $350K into debt to go there. Yet, you are trying to make the conversation about something that is not relevant.
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I find it funny that a bunch of pre-meds thinks that all of these problems are somehow unique to RVU because it's for-profit. How many schools, MD or DO, have enough residency spots at their teaching hospital(s) to insure that every student has a residency at those hospitals?
 
I normally don't respond to threads that are like this, and I ask that you avoid flaming people who disagree with you, it doesn't further the discussion....

Here is the argument I think that people against for-profit eduction (MD, DO, undergrad, w/e) are attempting to make...

For-profits like RVU have no interest in assuring their students do well - their only concern is making money. They want to students to pass (because low pass rates is not going to attract any "students", I'm sorry, customers.) but beyond that have no interest in their students well-being (it's simply not profitable to hire staff to make sure students get successful residencies, etc. Because it's not profitable (beyond assuring they're not below average, as I stated earlier).

This isn't true with a not-for-profit school where any profits beyond a certain amount (I don't know what the number is other than it's fairly low, I believe it depends on the institution), have to be put back into the school. That is, lets say a random school - Purple University after tuition and expenses, etc. has 1 million in profits, they're required to put this money back into their school (better computers, new buildings, more programs, etc.). This growth is not seen in for-profits for the obvious reasons.

For-profits have no interest in doing anymore than mediocre at best, that's not something that I don't look for in a program. When I pick a school I want it to strive to be the best program, whereas programs like RVU simply strive to not be the worst.

I'm writing this in between classes so I apologize for the poor grammar. I also want to reiterate what others said - We need to make a distinction between the school that's at fault, and the students that aren't. Although, one could make the argument that students of RVU are just as responsible as the school as they willingly attended a for-profit school (owned by the same fellow who owns AUC), and are responsible for any repercussions - but that's another arguement all together.

My question for all of you who are against RVU's existence is what is your solution? Should we revoke RVU's credentials? Or should we just stop allowing any more for-profit institutions?

Give me a moment while I put on my bulletproof vest...

CF
 
CascadaFan said:
I normally don't respond to threads that are like this, and I ask that you avoid flaming people who disagree with you, it doesn't further the discussion....

Here is the argument I think that people against for-profit eduction (MD, DO, undergrad, w/e) are attempting to make...

For-profits like RVU have no interest in assuring their students do well - their only concern is making money. They want to students to pass (because low pass rates is not going to attract any "students", I'm sorry, customers.) but beyond that have no interest in their students well-being (it's simply not profitable to hire staff to make sure students get successful residencies, etc. Because it's not profitable (beyond assuring they're not below average, as I stated earlier).

This isn't true with a not-for-profit school where any profits beyond a certain amount (I don't know what the number is other than it's fairly low, I believe it depends on the institution), have to be put back into the school. That is, lets say a random school - Purple University after tuition and expenses, etc. has 1 million in profits, they're required to put this money back into their school (better computers, new buildings, more programs, etc.). This growth is not seen in for-profits for the obvious reasons.

For-profits have no interest in doing anymore than mediocre at best, that's not something that I don't look for in a program. When I pick a school I want it to strive to be the best program, whereas programs like RVU simply strive to not be the worst.

I'm writing this in between classes so I apologize for the poor grammar. I also want to reiterate what others said - We need to make a distinction between the school that's at fault, and the students that aren't. Although, one could make the argument that students of RVU are just as responsible as the school as they willingly attended a for-profit school (owned by the same fellow who owns AUC), and are responsible for any repercussions - but that's another arguement all together.

My question for all of you who are against RVU's existence is what is your solution? Should we revoke RVU's credentials? Or should we just stop allowing any more for-profit institutions?

Give me a moment while I put on my bulletproof vest...

CF
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Don't worry, my gun is out of bullets ;). I think you may have overgeneralized the goals of RVU. They are definitely striving to be the "best" school because it is in their best interest to do so--possibly even more so than not-for-profit institutions. If they are seen as the "best" they will receive more private investors, more applicants, and possibly expand by opening more campuses in other areas of the country. This will ultimately allow them to make more money. Striving "not to be the worst" is ill thought out rhetoric that many people associate with capitalistic entities in a socialistic educational system. Investing in their students is absolutely the best investment they can make, their cabins in Jackson Hole, WY depend on it.

I totally for a school trying to turn a profit. I am not for the potential stigma it may place on me (yes that is shallow, but honest), or for their current lack of students being able to receive federal loans. Those are the main reasons I chose not to attend RVU.
 
Siggy said:
I find it funny that a bunch of pre-meds thinks that all of these problems are somehow unique to RVU because it's for-profit. How many schools, MD or DO, have enough residency spots at their teaching hospital(s) to insure that every student has a residency at those hospitals?
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I find it funny how a medical student is telling a resident how things in residency should work. See how ad-hominems are stupid. Drop the pre-med schpeil.


A better question for you is how many schools don't have enough slots for all of their students? My med school had enough, as does my residency as did every single hospital I applied to for residency. You act like it is a rarity for a school to have that many residency slots. In actuality, most academic centers have more than enough slots for all of their students- of course not all the students choose stay.
 
kuanileqa said:
Don't worry, my gun is out of bullets ;). I think you may have overgeneralized the goals of RVU. They are definitely striving to be the "best" school because it is in their best interest to do so--possibly even more so than not-for-profit institutions. If they are seen as the "best" they will receive more private investors, more applicants, and possibly expand by opening more campuses in other areas of the country. This will ultimately allow them to make more money. Striving "not to be the worst" is ill thought out rhetoric that many people associate with capitalistic entities in a socialistic educational system. Investing in their students is absolutely the best investment they can make, their cabins in Jackson Hole, WY depend on it.

I totally for a school trying to turn a profit. I am not for the potential stigma it may place on me (yes that is shallow, but honest), or for their current lack of students being able to receive federal loans. Those are the main reasons I chose not to attend RVU.
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To be honest, I couldn't disagree with you more. First, " If they are seen as the "best" they will receive more private investors, more applicants, and possibly expand by opening more campuses in other areas of the country." Why work so hard spending money on being the best when it's much easier to cut corners and make a profit. Also, I would be hesistent at best to "donate" to this school as an alumni or a private investor - donating to your alma mater is supposed to be to better the program, not pay for the CEO's fancy cabin the middle of god-forsaken Wyoming. Donating money to RVU is much like donating money to Exxon-Mobil... what's the point? They aren't going to make better or more efficient gas - just more money for the shareholders.

Let's get this straight - For-profits have zero interest in their students success beyond having them match, then they advertise on TV about the one or two big success stories (like Jenny Craig, not that Jenny Craig doesn't work... don't sue me....).

Investing in their students is just not worthwhile - investing in costing cutting like say, more students per cadaver, etc. is worthwhile.
 
I'm not sure if you guys realize, but the argument you are having regarding RVU's for profit status, and whether it is a plus or minus, is actually a much larger argument which pertains to your feelings regarding the "free market".

For the hardcore "free-marketers", they would argue that since RVU is for profit, they have the most incentive to create the best "product" possible. They would argue that RVU offers a product (a medical education), and that consumers (applicants) have choices regarding which school to attend. Therefore, RVU has more incentive to create an amazing institution in order to attract applicants, whereas a non for profit has no real financial incentive to attract strong applicants (this is the argument).

Of course many believe that when the free market goes unchecked and things are purely profit driven, the result is corner cutting, lack of quality, and other practices which are detrimental to the school, and serve only to pad the pockets of those who stand to gain.

So....this is a very old argument and I don't believe any consensus has really been made. Personally, my beliefs are much more aligned with the latter group.

I believe that for profit institutions have the incentive to create something that APPEARS to be of great quality in order to attract applicants, but does not really encourage actual improvements in quality. I feel that it is human nature to cut corners and that the safer bet is to attend a school which does not put to the test this unfortunate human trait.
 
Instatewaiter said:
I find it funny how a medical student is telling a resident how things in residency should work. See how ad-hominems are stupid. Drop the pre-med schpeil.
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I find it funny that you're pulling the resident card to a post where I'm quoting someone who's profile says they're a pre-med.

Additionally, one of the big points I made was that RVU isn't the only school to have students repeat first year. I figured as a resident you'd understand that.

I also find it funny that you are failing to make the distinction between saying, "They're a pre-med, so they don't understand how (again, using the repeat first year as an example) medical school remediation works and how it doesn't work like repeating a failed course in undergrad" as some sort of personal attack. Pointing out that the level of one's experience is such that things aren't always how they appear is not an ad hominem attack.


A better question for you is how many schools don't have enough slots for all of their students? My med school had enough, as does my residency as did every single hospital I applied to for residency. You act like it is a rarity for a school to have that many residency slots. In actuality, most academic centers have more than enough slots for all of their students- of course not all the students choose stay.
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Interesting, hence why I asked that question.
 
theone1979 said:
For the hardcore "free-marketers", they would argue that since RVU is for profit, they have the most incentive to create the best "product" possible.
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Not necessarily. They have the most incentive to create the highest profit margins possible. If it's more profitable to keep admissions standards at an 'eh' level, work the PR/ad campaign a lot, and continually churn out 200 physicians at year with the lowest overhead possible, then this option will be selected above building an elite powerhouse in the hopes of attracting investors or something.

It's like a cheap car company - do you think Suzuki makes the greatest, well made, top-of-the-line car in the world? Probably not; it's more likely that you'd say "Mercedes," "BMW," "Rolls Royce," etc. However, it isn't that Suzuki doesn't have the capability to manufacture cars at this quality, it's simple that they've found the biggest profits churning out mass production of cheap, easy to make cars.

Although it's a stretch, the same can be applied to essentially any for-profit model. Not saying that it will, but my guess is that super high admission standards, spending a KILLING on medical centers, researchers, opening residencies, etc, etc, isn't the most profitable thing on the planet, so it won't be the course they'll chose (especially in a realistic timeline).
 
Instatewaiter said:
A better question for you is how many schools don't have enough slots for all of their students? My med school had enough, as does my residency as did every single hospital I applied to for residency. You act like it is a rarity for a school to have that many residency slots. In actuality, most academic centers have more than enough slots for all of their students- of course not all the students choose stay.
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Is this an LCME requirement? It's an odd assessment to me - enough "slots" (with regard to residency) for all their graduating students. It makes residencies sound like a equivalent, assigned type of situation where everyone enters the same, standard "residency" after medical school. Now, if you said the university medical center has 150 surgery spots; 150 FM spots; 150 Peds spots, etc, then it might mean something, but having 150 total residency spots available doesn't seem to correlate to much in my opinion. Like you said, people pick and chose fields and residency locations, so the whole analogy seems odd.
 
NurWollen said:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...dical-school-medical-degrees-medical-students

Apparently PBMC seems to be openly pursuing a for-profit model. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Their President and CEO worked with FIU and with the proposed UC Merced in California.
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It will pan out with rejection. Plenty of medical schools have been rejected for this exact reason by the LCME. Being for profit is *categorically* forbidden by the LCME by its accreditation standards. This is the same reason why the sneaky resolution the AMA is trying to pass (and i support) that would require overseas medical schools to get LCME accreditation if students spend a given amount of time in the US would be a poison pill for the caribbean. Those schools, like PBMC, are for profit and will never be LCME approved as long as they remain in that structure. Clearly PBMC believes it can be the first to be allowed an exemption to the rule, but its pretty clearly written right now as a reason for immediate rejection of an accreditation bid.

oh and btw, the whole argument of for or not-for profit is 1) very relevant and 2) pretty much being incorrectly argued by everyone here. A not for profit school can make tons of money. Thats not the issue. The issue is they have to invest so much of their earnings back into their own school to keep the status. This means that if they want to make more money the only way they can do it is by pumping the money back into their school to make it more appealing so the cut of the total earnings they get to keep as CEO pay is higher. Additionally there are sub-rules that they cant inflate prices of anything more than a very set amount per year reflecting demand, inflation and current trends in payment blah blah blah. Thats how you sometimes get $35,000 tuition and $500 fees and sometimes $10,000 tuition and $15,000 fees. THey are very limited in where they can collect money so they'll raise prices where they can best gain them.

For-profit institutions have no need to put money into their institutions. Now, they DEFINITELY will, since it is just as valid a way to increase profits as non-profits. Where it varies massively is that a for-profit institution can also change prices and make immediate business 'actions' as they see fit to respon to the market. Which means that, in theory (and there is no reason to not do this in practice) they can make tuition be $50,000 tomorrow. They can do that to students who are currently paying (im making this number up) $30,000. Just send a memo out that their tuition just went up 66% for next year.

And they will be able to do it not because they are "for-profit" but because they are competing with (sad but true) caribbean schools. and caribbean schools charge you around $50-60,000 a year (they disguise it by charging you 12-14,000 a session, but there are 9-10 sessions before you graduate in 3 years). As long as they are the same price as a caribbean school and on american soil they are in a better position and will get enough students to fill the seats. It also expresses itself in that there is a seperate leadership that wants only maximization of profits. So if you can cut corners you will. This could lead to some very unethical cuts, price changes, misleading charges, and staff shake ups just to make sure they can collect as much money at as little cost as possible.

now mind you... this whole thing above is only "can do"s. The simple fact is if you do these things too many times you get a bad rep and nothing can wipe that clean but a lot of years of paying for it. In a way being for-profit is a red herring since a school can really only do these things a few times and remain 'respectable'. of course by the "same price as grenada but its american" theory... you dont need respect if the students will come no matter what. Again... red herring... until it happens.

Thats why the LCME expressly forbids it. Its too damn much risk to the students incase the board of directors gets greedy and forces a price hike on them. And the LCME, as well as pretty much any legal entitity, can do nothing. The school is entitled to do that. So not allowing accreditation makes it much simpler for the LCME by plain out eliminating such concerns from possible student-school issues. Of course the AOA/COCA has no such scruple, but in a passing conversation with my dean about this (the Dean of TouroCOM did attempt to open a for-profit school in the midwest somewhere but decided against it and the people who went forward with it lost thier investment when the LCME denied them even initial attempt rights) and he said that COCA never honestly expected a for-profit DO school to be made. And once Rocky Vista applied as for-profit they had to make a quick decision and decided to let RV, and just RV, give it a shot to test the waters. His feeling is that it may be the only for-profit school we'll ever see, even if it succeeds, because COCA doesn't like the risks involved any more than the LCME does for allopathic schools.
 
Instatewaiter said:
I find it funny how a medical student is telling a resident how things in residency should work. See how ad-hominems are stupid. Drop the pre-med schpeil.
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Siggy said:
I find it funny that you're pulling the resident card to a post where I'm quoting someone who's profile says they're a pre-med.
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Please re-read my post above, especially the second sentence. Let me spell it out for you- I was saying that using the resident card or the medical student card is dumb. I used it ironically.

I didn't respond to the fact that RVU makes students repeat. Every school does that because some students aren't ready to move forward.

JaggerPlate said:
Is this an LCME requirement? It's an odd assessment to me - enough "slots" (with regard to residency) for all their graduating students. It makes residencies sound like a equivalent, assigned type of situation where everyone enters the same, standard "residency" after medical school. Now, if you said the university medical center has 150 surgery spots; 150 FM spots; 150 Peds spots, etc, then it might mean something, but having 150 total residency spots available doesn't seem to correlate to much in my opinion. Like you said, people pick and chose fields and residency locations, so the whole analogy seems odd.
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No it's not a requirement. It just happens that the LCME teaching hospitals tend be huge hospitals so they have large enough volume to sustain large programs and they tend to have residencies in basically every specialty.

It is somewhat important because if you want to stay at your home program, it is nice to know you can. For instance, we had 10 people who wanted to stay for medicine and they all matched. We had 2 who wanted to stay for Urology, they both matched.

A school that doesn't even have any residencies means that their students don't have that inside tract where they already know the program and the program knows them. Add to that the stigma that goes with RVU and it means that their students may have difficulty matching... Of course RVU would never publish the data of the percent that don't match. I mean look what they did for the boards. They stacked the statistics by publishing only the pass rate of the top 80% of the class... and that was still below average. Note that they haven't re-published the data of the entire class even though they definitely have that data now.
 
I just called the admissions office and the girl there told me they were definitely above the average for board scores and the dean thinks they will be in the 90th percentile next year because they are in the 75th percentile now...

I didn't know below average was 75th percentile. Perhaps what she meant is that they think 90% will pass the boards next year because only 75% did this year. I'm just speculating though.

If you don't have the data that says your school is good... might as well lie to applicants. Way to go RVU
 
Instate,

I definitely get what you're trying to say with the value of being associated with a big teaching hospital, but I think you're making some big stretches and being anecdotal. Just because ten people from your school wanted the spots there and got them doesn't mean that a superior applicant from a school that maybe didn't have a med residency has any lesser chance or that the spots would be reserved for individuals from your school.

Additionally, while I understand that becoming familiar with the program is an advantage, it, again, doesn't imply that a subpar uro applicant from your program is going to have some huge advantage than a harvard gunner simply because your home hospital has the spots. Making these type of assumptions seems very anecdotal.

Finally, how in the hell, as a resident, do you have the time or care enough to take time out of your life and call the rvu admissions office? Really?
 
JaggerPlate said:
Finally, how in the hell, as a resident, do you have the time or care enough to take time out of your life and call the rvu admissions office? Really?
Click to expand...

I know, right? I mean making a phone call takes like 4 hours at least, not to mention all the paper work and choreography required. /sarcasm

Seriously? First, it takes all of 2 minutes to make a phone call. Second, he probably "care[d] enough" because he, like many other people on this forum, are devoted to the medical profession and education and finds RVU to be a danger to both. He's simply standing up for what he believes in and, unlike many people, is doing his research.

Also, I'm disappointed in you Jagger - I find you to be one of the most vocal and composed people on this forum, but making a personal attack on someone on the sole basis that they disagree with you?

sidebar - What medical school do you go to Jagger? Or at the very least are you a student at RVU?

To quote the great Ellen: Be good to one another.

CF
 
JaggerPlate said:
Instate,

I definitely get what you're trying to say with the value of being associated with a big teaching hospital, but I think you're making some big stretches and being anecdotal. Just because ten people from your school wanted the spots there and got them doesn't mean that a superior applicant from a school that maybe didn't have a med residency has any lesser chance or that the spots would be reserved for individuals from your school.
Click to expand...

I'm really responding to your whole comment, but ill truncate it to just the first paragraph for the sake of shortening it. I think you're missing what, i assume, he was implying. Having a big teaching hospital is nice because in most cases you really will have an advantage over the harvard gunner. Unless you're going for the most competitive of competitive things, you can assume that having 10 or 15 residency spots at one hospital means that the 5 or 6 people in your school who may really like that one program, and have spent all their time there, will get in if they are qualified.

residency directors will tell you. They'll take a (slightly!) less qualified person from the home institution over a normal qualified person they've rotated with over a the best gunner from some far away school that they've never met. You need to be qualified, but his point was that having these long standing connections with places that have a lot of residencies out there mean that the hospital can be a safe fallback because they will know you so well, you'll match there easily if you're qualified, even if more competitive people want to go there too.

obv: its a generalization. But i think its a pretty good generalization.
 
Cascada,

1. An md resident who is in no way affiliated with rvu doesn't just wake up one morning, take 30 seconds out of their life call rvu, and go about their day ... Think about the pre and after time, effort, and energy that goes into that. Additionally, how is detracting time from learning medical skill and taking care of patients to call the admissions office of a random school bettering the collective medical future? Seems like the opposite to me

2. Sorry to disappoint, wish I could tossle your hair and say I'm sorry for letting you down son, but the truth is that I don't care and you've completely missed the point. I'm not the one who started personal attacks, nor am I making them in any sort of defense of rvu. I'm making them and asking questions because the vendetta is odd and the argument here is unrelated and anecdotal. If he wants to argue the pitfalls of for profit education ... Great, let's do that. If he wants to make unrelated arguments and try to somehow related them to the rvu situation and explain this in the midst of admitting he called the school ... I'm going to raise questions. Doing anything else would be disappointing.

3. Since you're such a fan, I'm disappointed you didn't do you research ... I'm in no way affiliated with rvu and I'm against for profit education. If that was the issue that was even being argued in this case, then maybe it would be more apparent and this confusion wouldn't occur.

4. Please don't quote Ellen when we bicker for the next 6 hours over this pointless, tangent of a thread.
 
Espana,

Let me clarify ... I'm not saying a big hospital isn't a great thing, nor am I saying that having enough residency spots for your students isn't a great thing either ... What I am saying is that stating it's a big advantage to gaining those specific spots over the harvard gunner is just as anecdotal as me saying more of those spots are filled by those students because the harvard gunner didn't care or want them, not because the home pds are so biased that the students from that school can just "sign up" for their home derma residency. No way to really prove either ( an advantage via home hospital or a large percent because that's who applied and the harvard gunner spent his time focusing on programs at mgh).

However, what I'm really trying to say and the only point I truly will defend is that this has very little to do with the tax status at rvu, and extrapolating beyond that isn't helpful.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Cascada,

1. An md resident who is in no way affiliated with rvu doesn't just wake up one morning, take 30 seconds out of their life call rvu, and go about their day ... Think about the pre and after time, effort, and energy that goes into that. Additionally, how is detracting time from learning medical skill and taking care of patients to call the admissions office of a random school bettering the collective medical future? Seems like the opposite to me

2. Sorry to disappoint, wish I could tossle your hair and say I'm sorry for letting you down son, but the truth is that I don't care and you've completely missed the point. I'm not the one who started personal attacks, nor am I making them in any sort of defense of rvu. I'm making them and asking questions because the vendetta is odd and the argument here is unrelated and anecdotal. If he wants to argue the pitfalls of for profit education ... Great, let's do that. If he wants to make unrelated arguments and try to somehow related them to the rvu situation and explain this in the midst of admitting he called the school ... I'm going to raise questions. Doing anything else would be disappointing.

3. Since you're such a fan, I'm disappointed you didn't do you research ... I'm in no way affiliated with rvu and I'm against for profit education. If that was the issue that was even being argued in this case, then maybe it would be more apparent and this confusion wouldn't occur.

4. Please don't quote Ellen when we bicker for the next 6 hours over this pointless, tangent of a thread.
Click to expand...

its okay. i still think your dandy. Also, making great comments here (Despite me commenting you may have slightly misunderstood one comment from instate)
 
JaggerPlate said:
Cascada,

1. An md resident who is in no way affiliated with rvu doesn't just wake up one morning, take 30 seconds out of their life call rvu, and go about their day ... Think about the pre and after time, effort, and energy that goes into that. Additionally, how is detracting time from learning medical skill and taking care of patients to call the admissions office of a random school bettering the collective medical future? Seems like the opposite to me


4. Please don't quote Ellen when we bicker for the next 6 hours over this pointless, tangent of a thread.
Click to expand...

In response to 1. so an MD resident couldn't possibly care about DO's or medical education. I can't help but think you're on the defensive because he is an MD and not a DO. I feel if he was a DO this argument wouldn't exist. Furthermore, no one is going to die in 30 sec while he calls a school inquiring about their program. I wonder if you have the same concerns about people who spend time talking to friends on the phone while they're in their residency. People have free time, and as I said earlier he's probably an advocate against for-profits, who cares if he spends 30 seconds of his life calling a school to research his argument or 30 seconds talking about the latest episode of "Shameless".

Who are you to judge what anyone else does with their time? You don't know him or his life.

As for 4. Ellen is god, you're jealous! ;-)

I would also like to note I mean't no personal attack against you - however, you strike back with venom against me.

CF
 
DocEspana said:
its okay. i still think your dandy. Also, making great comments here (Despite me commenting you may have slightly misunderstood one comment from instate)
Click to expand...

Yeah ... I really don't want to go on record saying that there aren't a lot of advantages to a respected academic hospital relationship, or that there isn't some advantage to the home students, my whole point is that I think this is somehow being used as an argument against rvu which just doesn't make much sense when the discussion is about for profit med Ed.
 
Cas,

I don't care if he's an md or do ... I think it's odd for a resident who isn't highly involved with the situation to take the time out of their 80 hour work week to call a med school admin office and report the findings on sdn. To me, this doesn't sound like someone overtly concerned about the for profit issue or do education in general, it sounds like an odd personal vendetta. My guess is that if he cared, he'd be writing letters to the aoa and explaining to the admin office why he was calling. Let's call a spade a spade here.

Also, my point, which you missed again, is that this is not 30 seconds out of your life ... This is hourrrsss of time spent thinking, discussing, debating, etc. I'm not going to get into any of the more unrelated, emotional aspects of your post from here, but be assured that I'm not "spitting venom." Like my grandfather used to tell me every time I'd try to wrestle around and rough it with my older cousins ... "if you're going to play with the big boys, don't come crying to me when you get hurt."
 
JaggerPlate said:
Cas,

I don't care if he's an md or do ... I think it's odd for a resident who isn't highly involved with the situation to take the time out of their 80 hour work week to call a med school admin office and report the findings on sdn. To me, this doesn't sound like someone overtly concerned about the for profit issue or do education in general, it sounds like an odd personal vendetta. My guess is that if he cared, he'd be writing letters to the aoa and explaining to the admin office why he was calling. Let's call a spade a spade here.
Click to expand...

Doesn't make his argument any more or less valid. Also, like I said this reporting he's done maybe - realistically - took him all of 5 minutes. Also, it's probably not a great idea to make assumptions about what people do/don't do. For all you know he could be writing letters to the AOA.
 
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