medstudents entering the match

[PleaseRemainCalm]

In fairness - I thought I would go into IM and end up in Cards/GI when I was in the first 2 years of med school. This was after exposure to Rad Onc.

Then I rotated through IM as a 3rd year medical student, realized I would have to do 3 years of caring about CHF and COPD and DM and all those other IM things and noped the hell on out of there. It was a process of elimination for me in regards to what I ended up in.

In regards to the bolded - I really don't think I would enjoy anything else in medicine nearly as much as I enjoy the day-to-day of Rad Onc. Heme-onc is just IM for a cancer patient. I was never going to be a surgeon. Radiology is not enough longitudinal patient contact.

I'm cognizant that others may feel how you feel, Ricky, but there are some (likely a low percentage of the current population) that maybe wouldn't be happy doing something else.

I think it's totally fair to say rad onc is the best fit for someone by far but it does seem crazy to say that no other kind of physician or no other kind of oncologist could possibly be your career path! Remember that the vast majority of highly educated professional people, although highly invested in their careers, still see their job as a means to an end and have good parts and bad parts to their day to day work. Let's keep some perspective here.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[OTN]

Being tongue in cheek as I am oft wont to do, I couldn't help but think that we all like to think "I had a completely thorough discussion with the prostate cancer patient." As in, "I have optimized my discussion with the prostate patient covering all possible forms of treatment, side effects, etc." See also: when the dosimetrist tells you the plan is as good as it's gonna get. Reminds me of Webb:

What do we really mean by optimization? Something that is optimum cannot be bettered by definition. Therefore the optimum plan is the best that could ever be obtained for treating a particular patient with a particular external shape, location of disease and arrangement of internal organs. I propose the view that this optimum plan is unachievable and that in practice this does not matter. To arrive at the optimum plan one would have to investigate the use of: (i) all types of irradiation (protons, carbon ions, photons…); (ii) of all energies (continuous not just those we have available); (iii) all possible numbers of beams from 1 to infinity; (iv) all possible ranges of fluence levels; (v) all possible beam geometry shapes; (vi) all possible fractionation schemes …and so on. It is totally apparent that as ‘‘optimizers’’ we cannot and do not do this. We are constrained by: (i) the beams available on our machines; (ii) the need to keep the number of beams deliverable within some specified delivery timeslot; (iii) the delivery mechanics available to us (which links in to the fluence level issue); (iv) the collimation available from the machine; (v) the need to treat in the daytime not at night; (vi) the time available for planning…and so on.

From one viewpoint a 90 minute consult slot is not enough time for a prostate cancer patient. Or maybe a 10 minute consult slot can be. Depends on how much info you want to download and your own personal biases as the treating physician.

In my experience some patients are a better fit for a ten-minute consult, others require 90 minutes. Highly patient-dependent.

 

[MegaVoltagePhoton]

Being tongue in cheek as I am oft wont to do, I couldn't help but think that we all like to think "I had a completely thorough discussion with the prostate cancer patient." As in, "I have optimized my discussion with the prostate patient covering all possible forms of treatment, side effects, etc." See also: when the dosimetrist tells you the plan is as good as it's gonna get. Reminds me of Webb:

What do we really mean by optimization? Something that is optimum cannot be bettered by definition. Therefore the optimum plan is the best that could ever be obtained for treating a particular patient with a particular external shape, location of disease and arrangement of internal organs. I propose the view that this optimum plan is unachievable and that in practice this does not matter. To arrive at the optimum plan one would have to investigate the use of: (i) all types of irradiation (protons, carbon ions, photons…); (ii) of all energies (continuous not just those we have available); (iii) all possible numbers of beams from 1 to infinity; (iv) all possible ranges of fluence levels; (v) all possible beam geometry shapes; (vi) all possible fractionation schemes …and so on. It is totally apparent that as ‘‘optimizers’’ we cannot and do not do this. We are constrained by: (i) the beams available on our machines; (ii) the need to keep the number of beams deliverable within some specified delivery timeslot; (iii) the delivery mechanics available to us (which links in to the fluence level issue); (iv) the collimation available from the machine; (v) the need to treat in the daytime not at night; (vi) the time available for planning…and so on.

From one viewpoint a 90 minute consult slot is not enough time for a prostate cancer patient. Or maybe a 10 minute consult slot can be. Depends on how much info you want to download and your own personal biases as the treating physician.

Don’t forget to add in a discussion of whether the attending needs to be present or not for the treatment and what would happen if that changed.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

What i think about all this is medstudent canaries will see the bad twitter posts by chairs and PDs and respond accordingly. chair involved in failing many residents (Lk and SP)? Canaries will take note. Zeitman said so, folks.
This will be a very entertaining match. Mayo had a 100 apps. Buckle up folks!!!

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Lot of attendings gonna have to put contours in when they haven't in a while at programs that don't have independent attendings who are used to working without residents.

You ever see Lisa Kachnic try to contour an anal cancer IMRT case alone? Not gonna happen, son!

 

[deleted573262]

Lot of attendings gonna have to put contours in when they haven't in a while at programs that don't have independent attendings who are used to working without residents.

You ever see Lisa Kachnic try to contour an anal cancer IMRT case alone? Not gonna happen, son!

This is why programs will soap.

 

[OTN]

Just found this on Twitter.

If you want to go into private practice radiation oncology, know that radiation oncologists like Dr. Gillespie* from MSKCC and others are actively working to eliminate private practice radonc. I didn't realize the level of animosity towards pp until I was in residency, as we didn't have Twitter to illuminate us back then.

Our private practice provides world-class care at a fraction (1/5th of the cost, according to insurance data, as I've posted before, no it's not published, you can believe it or not) of the cost of MDA/MSKCC. Our outcomes are equivalent, again based on their claims data. We get to lead our own practice and make our own decisions about the direction it will be going. We have phase I trials, genetic counseling, multispecialty care, we hypofractionate, etc. I'm proud of what we have built and will continue to build. However, because the dollars don't ultimately flow to a hospital corporation or academic entity, we're somehow inferior to Dr. Gillespie's practice and shouldn't exist.

My personal opinion is that academic satellite jobs are the worst of the worst- you get to work like a private practice physician, but without much clinical autonomy and for far less pay than you would make in private practice. As a result, I would say, yes, elimination of private practice jobs in favor of academic satellite clinics is very much a bad thing for some interested medical students, like myself 15 years ago.

Not everyone wants to go into academic medicine. Our academic community needs to realize this if they wish to maintain medical student interest in radiation oncology, and instead of being antagonistic, they need to work with the entire radonc community to help push our field forward.

*She posted this publicly, is a public figure in our field, and I am only addressing her statement. I am not maligning her as a person or her as an oncologist.

Edit: Accidentally hit enter before I was done, so I went back and finished

 

[thecarbonionangle]

MROGA!!! It begins with everyone being the change they want to see, the pp and the “academics”.

 

[Corgi4Prez]

View attachment 283569

Just found this on Twitter.

If you want to go into private practice radiation oncology, know that radiation oncologists like Dr. Gillespie from MSKCC and many, many others are actively working to eliminate private practice radonc. I didn't realize the level of animosity towards pp until I was in residency, as we didn't have Twitter to illuminate us back then.

Haha the conspiracy theories on here are entertaining AF

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Service always improves when markets are managed by monopolies. Employees are never exploited when no other practice options exist.

 

[OTN]

Haha the conspiracy theories on here are entertaining AF

What conspiracy theory?

 

[Corgi4Prez]

What conspiracy theory?

Junior faculty at memorial are "actively working" to end rad onc PP. You're on to them. Keep up the strong work!

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Junior faculty at memorial are "actively working" to end rad onc PP. You're on to them. Keep up the strong work!

She is "actively working" at Hackensack Meridian Health in Middleton, NJ, which presumably used to be staffed by a private practitioner, like the rest of the doctors at that hospital. So, in a way.....

The broader issue is the thought process, or lack thereof.

Beyond the obvious problems that monopolies cause for patients, payors, physicians.... I think the attention given to reaping technical reimbursement from satellite clinics has distracted academic departments from literally any innovation stateside to further our field this past decade.

 

[OTN]

"Junior faculty at memorial are 'actively working' to end radonc pp" - what about this statement is false, given what she wrote?

 

[RickyScott]

View attachment 283569

Just found this on Twitter.

If you want to go into private practice radiation oncology, know that radiation oncologists like Dr. Gillespie* from MSKCC and others are actively working to eliminate private practice radonc. I didn't realize the level of animosity towards pp until I was in residency, as we didn't have Twitter to illuminate us back then.

Our private practice provides world-class care at a fraction (1/5th of the cost, according to insurance data, as I've posted before, no it's not published, you can believe it or not) of the cost of MDA/MSKCC. Our outcomes are equivalent, again based on their claims data. We get to lead our own practice and make our own decisions about the direction it will be going. We have phase I trials, genetic counseling, multispecialty care, we hypofractionate, etc. I'm proud of what we have built and will continue to build. However, because the dollars don't ultimately flow to a hospital corporation or academic entity, we're somehow inferior to Dr. Gillespie's practice and shouldn't exist.

My personal opinion is that academic satellite jobs are the worst of the worst- you get to work like a private practice physician, but without much clinical autonomy and for far less pay than you would make in private practice. As a result, I would say, yes, elimination of private practice jobs in favor of academic satellite clinics is very much a bad thing for some interested medical students, like myself 15 years ago.

Not everyone wants to go into academic medicine. Our academic community needs to realize this if they wish to maintain medical student interest in radiation oncology, and instead of being antagonistic, they need to work with the entire radonc community to help push our field forward.

*She posted this publicly, is a public figure in our field, and I am only addressing her statement. I am not maligning her as a person or her as an oncologist.

Edit: Accidentally hit enter before I was done, so I went back and finished

Her institution and others like MSKCC are destroying health care and the us economy with their prices.

 

[Corgi4Prez]

She is "actively working" at Hackensack Meridian Health in Middleton, NJ, which presumably used to be staffed by a private practitioner, like the rest of the doctors at that hospital. So, in a way.....

The broader issue is the thought process, or lack thereof.

Beyond the obvious problems that monopolies cause for patients, payors, physicians.... I think the attention given to reaping technical reimbursement from satellite clinics has distracted academic departments from literally any innovation stateside to further our field this past decade.

Hahaha "in a way". Hilarious. She might have been asking "is an academic conglomerate worse than a private non-academic conglomerate?" Because you know that is a thing too. Dunno. But surely Dr. Gillespie has no active role in those kinds of decisions. Who do you work for?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I thought the initial portion of my post was self-evidently tongue-in-cheek. Guess not.

Fully stand by the rest. Options are good. Monopolies bad. Given the choice between One Huge Academic Conglomerate (OHAC) and Two Large Private And/Or Academic Congolmerates (TLPA/OAC), I'm taking the latter.

 

[medgator]

Junior faculty at memorial are "actively working" to end rad onc PP. You're on to them. Keep up the strong work!

She clearly has zero issue with pp joining dinosaurs and the dodo bird.

You don't see a problem with that?

 

[evilbooyaa]

"Junior faculty at memorial are 'actively working' to end radonc pp" - what about this statement is false, given what she wrote?

I mean, I agree with your thought process but I don't think that she, herself, is the impetus for killing private practice.

She is just a junior faculty who (at least publicly) agrees with her bosses. Her bosses (along with most if not every major academic institution) are the ones 'actively working' to end radonc pp and make everybody a hospital employee so as to create a viable monopoly.

It's like one of those things that, technically, she's not driving the ship that is trying to kill private practice. She is simply a happy passenger on that murderboat.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Pp docs need to be more involved and join comittes etc. don’t be surprised if these things are done without you by “academics”

 

[Corgi4Prez]

I mean, I agree with your thought process but I don't think that she, herself, is the impetus for killing private practice.

She is just a junior faculty who (at least publicly) agrees with her bosses. Her bosses (along with most if not every major academic institution) are the ones 'actively working' to end radonc pp and make everybody a hospital employee so as to create a viable monopoly.

It's like one of those things that, technically, she's not driving the ship that is trying to kill private practice. She is simply a happy passenger on that murderboat.

Not sure what you expect her to do, not work? There are a lot of murderboats out there and many are not academic. I guess if you remain anonymous it's easy to criticize someone without having to admit that maybe you are a "happy passenger" too.

 

[deleted1002574]

Not sure what you expect her to do, not work? There are a lot of murderboats out there and many are not academic. I guess if you remain anonymous it's easy to criticize someone without having to admit that maybe you are a "happy passenger" too.

She said what she said publicly on twitter. There was no smiley face, no LOL, no "what I meant to say was ... "

I'm not in private practice, but that type of statement that she said is another shot at the bow, a la Ralphie boy. Again, if you're not enraged by this, you are also the enemy. If I misunderstand her comment, my apologies. Can you clarify what she means when she responds with: "is this supposed to be a bad thing?"

It is not conspiracy. What she is saying is that she thinks it would be better if private practices are eliminated and replaced by academic satellites. Dem sounds like fighting words to me.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Some of these academic programs that routinely produce more “academics” definitely have an anti pp culture. Residents are basically indoctrinated and shamed into going away from pp and that pp docs don’t follow standards of care, etc, and quality of plans is terrible etc etc. if you come from this background and stay within the bubble As many do, it is not surprising that you think pp going away may be a good thing.

what we have to change as a field the rampant elitism by the same programs and the old boys club mentality that keeps and promotes the same people or types of people to power. Why should the MSK chair and Vandy chair decide to fail a bunch of residents? the system is just messed up and has to be uprooted

 

[evilbooyaa]

Not sure what you expect her to do, not work? There are a lot of murderboats out there and many are not academic. I guess if you remain anonymous it's easy to criticize someone without having to admit that maybe you are a "happy passenger" too.

No she is more than welcome to work. She is welcome to post her opinions publicly, and if she chooses to exercise that, it means she opens herself to be criticized for those opinions by those who disagree with her.

You have a number of PP docs who are proud of their jobs (as I certainly would be if I were in their shoes) who take it as a personal affront that an ivory tower junior attending would be OK with the casual extinction of radiation oncology private practice.

 

[medgator]

No she is more than welcome to work. She is welcome to post her opinions publicly, and if she chooses to exercise that, it means she opens herself to be criticized for those opinions by those who disagree with her.

You have a number of PP docs who are proud of their jobs (as I certainly would be if I were in their shoes) who take it as a personal affront that an ivory tower junior attending would be OK with the casual extinction of radiation oncology private practice.

Not to mention many of these "siloed" folks would probably be unable to function in a full spectrum private practice after treating 1-2 sites exclusively in their respective Ivory towers for a few years.

Physicians on the front line in smaller communities don't have the luxury of picking and choosing who they treat that comes through the door

 

[deleted1002574]

You’re going to trigger some people with the phrase “Old Boys Network”

Maybe don’t focus on their age and gender. It’s not their fault that they are old and boys. Thank goodness you didn’t say white.

Hahahahaha

Some of these academic programs that routinely produce more “academics” definitely have an anti pp culture. Residents are basically indoctrinated and shamed into going away from pp and that pp docs don’t follow standards of care, etc, and quality of plans is terrible etc etc. if you come from this background and stay within the bubble As many do, it is not surprising that you think pp going away may be a good thing.

what we have to change as a field the rampant elitism by the same programs and the old boys club mentality that keeps and promotes the same people or types of people to power. Why should the MSK chair and Vandy chair decide to fail a bunch of residents? the system is just messed up and has to be uprooted

 

[Corgi4Prez]

She said what she said publicly on twitter. There was no smiley face, no LOL, no "what I meant to say was ... "

I'm not in private practice, but that type of statement that she said is another shot at the bow, a la Ralphie boy. Again, if you're not enraged by this, you are also the enemy. If I misunderstand her comment, my apologies. Can you clarify what she means when she responds with: "is this supposed to be a bad thing?"

It is not conspiracy. What she is saying is that she thinks it would be better if private practices are eliminated and replaced by academic satellites. Dem sounds like fighting words to me.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about her and many in academics. Most patients in most communities are treated by PP docs. The connection needs to be strengthened, not weakened through insults and false assumptions. I am involved with ASTRO and working on this with junior academics and PP docs that are passionate about our field. Send me a DM if you are interested. There is no downside to getting more perspective. The juniors do not hate SDN, which is why people like Dr. Tsai reach out. If you want to throw insults and chase everyone away, good luck to you.

 

[medgator]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about her and many in academics. Most patients in most communities are treated by PP docs. The connection needs to be strengthened, not weakened through insults and false assumptions. I am involved with ASTRO and working on this with junior academics and PP docs that are passionate about our field. Send me a DM if you are interested. There is no downside to getting more perspective. The juniors do not hate SDN, which is why people like Dr. Tsai reach out. If you want to throw insults and chase everyone away, good luck to you.

Nothing in your post addressed RO's point so I guess I will just ask it again. Do you think Dr Gillespie's comments were appropriate/fine?

Facts matter, especially in this day and age. Crap like that should be called out for what it is.

 

[deleted1002574]

@Corgi4Prez

Say if I and others in power positions said, because treating patients is of utmost importance, we need to dismantle the academic arm of radiation oncology.

Or, if a large corporate takeover occurred of academic satellites, and I said, “What’s wrong with that?”

You are not debating in good faith. She said something that threatens my good friends here in private practice livelihood. I quite surprised you are saying I am throwing insults when I clearly stated that if I’m misunderstanding something, I’d love a clarification.

This type of “let’s not address the actual argument” and just say SDN people are insulting, etc., is the problem.

Address the comments, don’t turn us into the bad guy.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about her and many in academics. Most patients in most communities are treated by PP docs. The connection needs to be strengthened, not weakened through insults and false assumptions. I am involved with ASTRO and working on this with junior academics and PP docs that are passionate about our field. Send me a DM if you are interested. There is no downside to getting more perspective. The juniors do not hate SDN, which is why people like Dr. Tsai reach out. If you want to throw insults and chase everyone away, good luck to you.

 

[Corgi4Prez]

Nothing in your post addressed RO's point so I guess I will just ask it again. Do you think Dr Gillespie's comments were appropriate/fine?

Facts matter, especially in this day and age. Crap like that should be called out for what it is.

Cool. Call it out, you win. Yes, I do not agree with what she said as pasted above. I do not know the context, and context is important. It doesn't really seem like you are interested in a nuanced discussion of this issue or trying to fix it. You are delusional if you think SDN is pedaling in facts and not hurling insults. "Academics cant treat more than 1 or 2 sites and turn away patients". Categorically not true for many, many academics.

Its clear to me that nothing productive is coming from engaging SDN. Good luck going forward.

 

[KHE88]

View attachment 283569

Just found this on Twitter.

Wow. How could someone be so uninformed/brainwashed by the academic leaders?
They've been fed this lie about the honor and prestige of big-institution academic radiation oncology and taught to turn their noses up at the private practice doctors (presumably because they are stupider and all in it for the money). When the reality is they have been manipulated into letting their superiors make millions off their labor. These "non-profit" institutions all cherry pick the best insurers, routinely deny treatment for illegal immigrants or indignant patients (seen it multiple times), charge multiples of what private practices do, and underpay staff.

I have personally heard a chair say "why are we paying these older docs $700k when we can get a new grad for $350k?"
Hint: They are not losing money by paying the doc $700k or letting him/her do his own professional billing. Are the patients seeing this 50% discount in labor costs?
So what happened? Gobbling up private practices, making everybody employees, then a few years later cutting their pay resulting in a mass exodus and replacement with ignorant new grads at half the price desparate to live anywhere near a big coastal city because they've created a pipeline of homogeneous rad onc residents with a totally imbalanced supply/demand curve. Of course, this is happening everywhere. Because it's a stupidly easy way to increase margins.

Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

 

[KHE88]

Its clear to me that nothing productive is coming from engaging SDN. Good luck going forward.

No, you just are unable to rationally defend your position with factual information that we are peddling "conspiracy theories" so are resorting to "you all are just a bunch of meanies!"

 

[deleted1002574]

No, you just are unable to rationally defend your position with factual information that we are peddling "conspiracy theories" so are resorting to "you all are just a bunch of meanies!"

Yup. And sometimes we are meanies. And sometimes some people peddle in conspiracy. However, it’s far less than the amount of gaslighting on radonc twitter. Far, far less. Having actually engaged in real life - the end of the argument goes like this - “Radonc has been overvalued for years. It’s time for a drastic change” = you grads that were told a specific set of facts are now going to have to accept a completely set of different set of facts. And, if you complain, then we will not address the prior facts we told you. We will just call you malcontents and then call you the G word, because we know that hurts you the most. “Greedy”. All of their words come down to calling us greedy.

 

[deleted1002574]

On a secondary note, to fresh grads out there. Academic satellite does not have to equal terrible salary. I know for fact - Mayo, UPMC, MDACC - pay their mid career people very well. To many on this board, these three are the axis of evil, and that’s fine. I won’t address that part. But, they take care of their docs financially.

 

[medgator]

"Academics cant treat more than 1 or 2 sites and turn away patients". Categorically not true for many, many academics.

Its clear to me that nothing productive is coming from engaging SDN. Good luck going forward.

Have you ever talked to an academic subspecialist more than a few years from training and boards? I've talked to several. Maybe you should too

 

[Corgi4Prez]

No, you just are unable to rationally defend your position with factual information that we are peddling "conspiracy theories" so are resorting to "you all are just a bunch of meanies!"

Ha, I was waiting for you to show up. Now things are gonna get real productive! Ill just put this here again in case you need, uh, another try: I do not agree with what she said as pasted above.

"Have you ever talked to an academic subspecialist more than a few years from training and boards?" Haha yes. All the time. Good thing there are more than several academic subspecialists out there. Ive also talked to and seen several PPs who do really bad radiation. Clean up their messes all the time. The key point is that most radiation oncologists are great doctors. Highlighting the worst of both groups helps no one.

 

[medgator]

. The key point is that most radiation oncologists are great doctors. Highlighting the worst of both groups helps no one.

Absolutely, which makes Dr Gillespie's comment all the worse. Not sure how there was any other way to interpret it.

Plenty of academic ROs, many big names, feel zero shame about only knowing how to treat their 1-2 sites. They aren't embarrassed about it, and neither should you be

 

[KHE88]

On a secondary note, to fresh grads out there. Academic satellite does not have to equal terrible salary. I know for fact - Mayo, UPMC, MDACC - pay their mid career people very well. To many on this board, these three are the axis of evil, and that’s fine. I won’t address that part. But, they take care of their docs financially.

Correct. I know a couple of recent grads at satellites making around 450-500k.

If you are at a busy satellite and being offered a take-it-or-leave-it salary of 300-350k, you are being exploited, period. If they want you because you're a good fit, then they should be happy to negotiate a fair market rate near MGMA median with you. If the organization only cares about staffing a linac with a warm body and are leveraging being in a desirable location to do this as cheaply as possible, do you really want to be there? That's a harbinger of things to come. Caveat emptor.

And of course the exploitation isn't limited to academic centers. Some PP groups are notorious for it as well. But it seems to be much more common in the pseudoacademic satellite model.

I've done what a lot would consider career suicide and pigeonholed myself as a country hillbilly doctor, but it is literally impossible for the hospital to exploit me because they can't easily replace me. It's nice to be valued. Med students, unless you are incredibly lucky, if you don't want to be exploited in this field you have to be ok with living in the middle of nowhere. And understanding that you'll probably be there for your entire career.

 

[DukeNukem]

I've been straight up laughed at by a half dozen academic places over the phone (and more recently in person) for asking for MGMA median. My most recent offer was about half of MGMA median. Please let me know who is hiring at that salary with a reasonable RVU target so I can apply. Thanks

 

[deleted774703]

On a secondary note, to fresh grads out there. Academic satellite does not have to equal terrible salary. I know for fact - Mayo, UPMC, MDACC - pay their mid career people very well. To many on this board, these three are the axis of evil, and that’s fine. I won’t address that part. But, they take care of their docs financially.

UPMC may have decent pay but not good to work for in terms of benefits

0 parental leave for residents.

Only in January of this year did they start offering any leave for non resident employees. Guess how much, 2 weeks...

Impt to look at benefits as well.

I know you weren’t getting into non salary talk but just pointing out to make sure others informed

 

[deleted774703]

I've been straight up laughed at by a half dozen academic places over the phone (and more recently in person) for asking for MGMA median. My most recent offer was about half of MGMA median. Please let me know who is hiring at that salary with a reasonable RVU target so I can apply. Thanks

That’s ridiculous! I know PP pays better but this is embarrassing.

What do academics expect you to ask for? Seems like work for free...

 

[medgator]

.

What do academics expect you to ask for? Seems like work for free...

Hard to do that when PP pays better.... But we all know what the academic motherships are doing these days in regards to their PP competition....

 

[scarbrtj]

It's not just about salary. It's also time off. I knew rad oncs that were making $400K working 2.5 days/week ~8-10y ago. The daytimeoffability of rad onc has really nosedived last 10-15y. Can't Google that metric anywhere so take my word for it or not (For example, most radiology groups offer generous time off, with eight to ten weeks of annual vacation being the standard range... down, however, from the 12, 13 and even 15 weeks that were offered... some years ago). Over the course of a 30 year career, 6 weeks vs 10 weeks annual vacation amounts to having 2 years more time off with 10 weeks a year. Not inconsequential.

Well known rad onc program I interviewed at for residency.. the chairman made a huge deal of telling every interviewee "We do not train people for private practice at this institution." Also even on their website they touted that they train rad oncs for academics only. I thought it was unwise to limit your career choices and possibilities in the small world of rad onc to an even tinier subset of that small world.

 

[metview]

If people want to know how much academic salaries really are just search for any Utexas (including MDA) and UCalifornia attending salaries. They are publicly available online. UCSD pays pretty well but makes sense since COL is insane in SD. UTSW surprisingly pays like crap. <300k for new grads and mid 300s for people > 4 yrs out, lol.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

If you want, I think you can find most any public university's salary somewhere online. They are public employees after all. However, when doing so, know you're only looking at base salary without bonuses, and benefits, etc...

When I was applying, I googled the 3-4 big public institutions that I may have some interest in and the pay was like 200-225k for their younger docs. Maybe 300k for mid career. I almost fainted. When I interviewed, it was clear I should expect (20-30%) more than that, including 403b match, bonus, etc... But obviously nowhere near a mid career PP salary.

 

[evilbooyaa]

If people want to know how much academic salaries really are just search for any Utexas (including MDA) and UCalifornia attending salaries. They are publicly available online. UCSD pays pretty well but makes sense since COL is insane in SD. UTSW surprisingly pays like crap. <300k for new grads and mid 300s for people > 4 yrs out, lol.

Yes that may be a good starting point and is valid for academic places that have zero incentive bonus, but if there is any incentive bonus then that number is just a minimum that the physician is getting paid. And yes, not including any benefits.

 

[FrostyHammer]

If you want, I think you can find most any public university's salary somewhere online. They are public employees after all. However, when doing so, know you're only looking at base salary without bonuses, and benefits, etc...

When I was applying, I googled the 3-4 big public institutions that I may have some interest in and the pay was like 200-225k for their younger docs. Maybe 300k for mid career. I almost fainted. When I interviewed, it was clear I should expect (20-30%) more than that, including 403b match, bonus, etc... But obviously nowhere near a mid career PP salary.

Not true... Starting salary for a new grad at MDACC is 350K, it's public info on the internet

 

[medgator]

Not true... Starting salary for a new grad at MDACC is 350K, it's public info on the internet

He's quoting data from when he applied, not now. Probably over a decade ago

 

[Mandelin Rain]

‘‘Twas a cool story that had nothing to do with what I posted

 

[deleted1002574]

Based on the Texas Tribune salary database it’s a tad higher than that.

Also, many of these institutions have quality “bonuses” that are automatic, so they don’t look like salary but if they come annually without fail, it’s not really a bonus, so that makes the real number higher than what’s listed.

He's quoting data from when he applied, not now. Probably over a decade ago

UPMC may have decent pay but not good to work for in terms of benefits

0 parental leave for residents.

Only in January of this year did they start offering any leave. Guess how much, 2 weeks...

Impt to look at benefits as well.

I know you weren’t getting into non salary talk but just pointing out to make sure others informed

That is factually incorrect. Like completely fake news about the maternity leave for residents, unless they got rid of it and are now re-instituting it. I know at least one former UPMC resident is on here.