WUSM vs. University of Michigan vs. Baylor

[carlosthescientist]

Before I begin, I just want to say that I am so grateful for the opportunities I’ve been offered during this application cycle. I never expected that I would have this many options at this time last year when I was starting my applications.

I would really appreciate any input that y’all could offer regarding my current options. I’ve been accepted at a handful of schools, but I’ve narrowed the final choice down to WUSM, University of Michigan, and Baylor. Here are my thoughts thus far:

Cost: I am lucky that my parents are both willing and able to fully cover the cost of my tuition. Cost is a non-issue in the eyes of my parents, but I personally do not want to put a huge financial burden on their shoulders. I will not qualify for any financial aid, so the only tuition cuts I will see will come from merit scholarships. With regard to the schools: WUSM has a fixed tuition of about $56,000 per year throughout the four years. I doubt that I will receive any merit scholarships, but it’s still a possibility. I believe that Michigan’s tuition (including fees) is somewhere around $48,000, and there seems to be no chance at scholarships anymore. On the other hand, Baylor is a significantly cheaper option. Between in-state tuition and a scholarship offer, tuition and fees average out to about $7,000 per year.

Location: I hail from a town near Houston and have family around the area. I currently go to WUSTL as an undergrad, so I’m also familiar with St. Louis and have friends here (if I go to WUSM, I will be rooming with my current roommate). I know STL the best of the three cities, and I really like the area around the medical school where I would be living as far as grocery shopping, nightlife/restaurants, safety, and proximity to the medical school are concerned. I’m not entirely sure about the fine details of the living situation at BCM or at U of M, but I couldn’t be happier with the situation at WUSM.

Weather: I’ve discovered over the past four years in STL that I’m not exactly keen on cold weather. I wouldn’t mind staying here for another four years, but I’m worried about the weather in Ann Arbor. On the other hand, Houston weather is my ideal! I’d take the heat and humidity of a Houston summer over the cold and dryness of an STL winter any day of the week.

Curriculum: I am a huge fan of BCM’s 1.5-year pre-clinical curriculum, with the extra six months spent on specialized rotations, rotations abroad, and research. There seems to be flexibility in when students can take Step 1, which I like. WUSM and Michigan both have two-year pre-clinical curricula, and all three schools split their curricula into normal and abnormal organ systems.

Pass/Fail: Both Baylor and Michigan’s curricula are entirely pass/fail, which I appreciate. WUSM is only pass/fail for year one; year two is honors/high pass/pass/fail.

Hospitals: WUSM and BCM have amazing hospital systems, especially with regards to cancer research—you can’t beat Siteman and MD Anderson. BJC and the St. Louis Children’s Hospital are world-class hospitals that serve the STL area, and Baylor has eight amazing associated hospitals in the Houston area. Michigan has the University Hospital and the C.S. Mott Children’s Hospital, but I’m not sure how good they are as teaching hospitals. I’m worried that, as a smaller college town, Ann Arbor won’t have the same diversity of patients that is present in a large city like Houston and St. Louis.

Residency matches: I’m not sure what I want to specialize in at all (although I’m pretty sure I can rule out pediatrics), so I’m just looking for a solid school that has good residency matches in general. I take this criterion as composed partly of Step 1 scores and partly of the school’s reputation. This is probably the most important factor for me, and it looks like WUSM is the winner in this respect; however, any other thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

I would really appreciate any advice, especially if there are important factors that I’m forgetting or downplaying. Writing this post has made it pretty apparent to myself that I don’t know much about U of M, so any insight into life in Ann Arbor or as a med student there would be greatly appreciated. At this point, I’m pretty sure this decision is going to boil down to WUSM or BCM, with WUSM’s living situation and success with residency matches pitted against Baylor’s cost, curriculum, and weather. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

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[SN12357]

The way you're written this (April fools pirate-speak aside) indicates that you prefer Baylor, so you should go to Baylor. The fact that it is cheapest is icing on the cake.

 

[trino]

I think you're right to narrow it down to WUSTL and BCM. I'll keep this short and sweet.

WUSTL if you are dead set on a top residency no matter what. (ie, you wouldn't be happy settling for second place) or if you want to go into academic medicine

BCM if you would be willing to take a slight chance at not matching to a top residency

My train of thought is, given WUSTL's match list, you can be in the bottom half of the class and still go to a fantastic residency. There is a very good chance that you could go to a top residency from BCM (especially given their Step 1 average). However, less of their match lists go to top residencies (relative to WUSTL)

Disclaimer: I don't actually know what top residencies are in each categorical match. I'm just going with my gut feeling. I could be completely wrong with WUSTL having a "better" match list than BCM

Both are great schools and you sound like you would be happy either way. You can be successful at both.

 

[DermViser]

I think you're right to narrow it down to WUSTL and BCM. I'll keep this short and sweet.

WUSTL if you are dead set on a top residency no matter what. (ie, you wouldn't be happy settling for second place) or if you want to go into academic medicine

BCM if you would be willing to take a slight chance at not matching to a top residency

Disclaimer: I don't actually know what top residencies are in each categorical match. I'm just going with my gut feeling. I could be completely wrong with WUSTL having a "better" match list than BCM

Both are great schools and you sound like you would be happy either way. You can be successful at both.

Trino
Status: Pre-Medical

 

[DermViser]

Before I begin, I just want to say that I am so grateful for the opportunities I’ve been offered during this application cycle. I never expected that I would have this many options at this time last year when I was starting my applications.

I would really appreciate any input that y’all could offer regarding my current options. I’ve been accepted at a handful of schools, but I’ve narrowed the final choice down to WUSM, University of Michigan, and Baylor. Here are my thoughts thus far:

Cost: I am lucky that my parents are both willing and able to fully cover the cost of my tuition. Cost is a non-issue in the eyes of my parents, but I personally do not want to put a huge financial burden on their shoulders. I will not qualify for any financial aid, so the only tuition cuts I will see will come from merit scholarships. With regard to the schools: WUSM has a fixed tuition of about $56,000 per year throughout the four years. I doubt that I will receive any merit scholarships, but it’s still a possibility. I believe that Michigan’s tuition (including fees) is somewhere around $48,000, and there seems to be no chance at scholarships anymore. On the other hand, Baylor is a significantly cheaper option. Between in-state tuition and a scholarship offer, tuition and fees average out to about $7,000 per year.

Location: I hail from a town near Houston and have family around the area. I currently go to WUSTL as an undergrad, so I’m also familiar with St. Louis and have friends here (if I go to WUSM, I will be rooming with my current roommate). I know STL the best of the three cities, and I really like the area around the medical school where I would be living as far as grocery shopping, nightlife/restaurants, safety, and proximity to the medical school are concerned. I’m not entirely sure about the fine details of the living situation at BCM or at U of M, but I couldn’t be happier with the situation at WUSM.

Weather: I’ve discovered over the past four years in STL that I’m not exactly keen on cold weather. I wouldn’t mind staying here for another four years, but I’m worried about the weather in Ann Arbor. On the other hand, Houston weather is my ideal! I’d take the heat and humidity of a Houston summer over the cold and dryness of an STL winter any day of the week.

Curriculum: I am a huge fan of BCM’s 1.5-year pre-clinical curriculum, with the extra six months spent on specialized rotations, rotations abroad, and research. There seems to be flexibility in when students can take Step 1, which I like. WUSM and Michigan both have two-year pre-clinical curricula, and all three schools split their curricula into normal and abnormal organ systems.

Pass/Fail: Both Baylor and Michigan’s curricula are entirely pass/fail, which I appreciate. WUSM is only pass/fail for year one; year two is honors/high pass/pass/fail.

Hospitals: WUSM and BCM have amazing hospital systems, especially with regards to cancer research—you can’t beat Siteman and MD Anderson. BJC and the St. Louis Children’s Hospital are world-class hospitals that serve the STL area, and Baylor has eight amazing associated hospitals in the Houston area. Michigan has the University Hospital and the C.S. Mott Children’s Hospital, but I’m not sure how good they are as teaching hospitals. I’m worried that, as a smaller college town, Ann Arbor won’t have the same diversity of patients that is present in a large city like Houston and St. Louis.

Residency matches: I’m not sure what I want to specialize in at all (although I’m pretty sure I can rule out pediatrics), so I’m just looking for a solid school that has good residency matches in general. I take this criterion as composed partly of Step 1 scores and partly of the school’s reputation. This is probably the most important factor for me, and it looks like WUSM is the winner in this respect; however, any other thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

I would really appreciate any advice, especially if there are important factors that I’m forgetting or downplaying. Writing this post has made it pretty apparent to myself that I don’t know much about U of M, so any insight into life in Ann Arbor or as a med student there would be greatly appreciated. At this point, I’m pretty sure this decision is going to boil down to WUSM or BCM, with WUSM’s living situation and success with residency matches pitted against Baylor’s cost, curriculum, and weather. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

See red bolded in your quote. No question for your particular situation - Baylor College of Medicine - one of the best deals in medical school education both in terms of quality and price. Ask @jturkel , as he'll be able to fill you in on the specifics. Just to correct you though, Baylor has P/F for the first 2 years, but internally ranks you during those years, for AOA. Not sure about Michigan. WUSTL in the first year, which is P/F, doesn't internally rank you during that year.

 

[trino]

Trino
Status: Pre-Medical

should have bolded the part about disclaimer as well. Since OP was concerned about residency matches, I responded in kind. Do you really think I'm wrong saying WUSTL would give a slight advantage over BCM when matching to top residencies?

EDIT: I'm also assuming cost is a non-issue

 

[DermViser]

should have bolded the part about disclaimer as well. Since OP was concerned about residency matches, I responded in kind. Do you really think I'm wrong saying WUSTL would give a slight advantage over BCM when matching to top residencies?

Yeah, I bolded that part too. That's what I was laughing at. The "advantage" that WUSTL might give you is a lot smaller than you think. Baylor College of Medicine (which is private, not a state school) has spectacular matches in the specialties esp. at great institutions. You're proof that even a "smart" 4.0 GPA/39 MCAT premed student can be SO WRONG when it comes to extrapolating the name of an institution to it's students' residency matches.

 

[kevinus]

If I were you, I'd go to WUSTL. It sounds like your family is well-off, and your parents are supportive of your education.

 

[trino]

Yeah, I bolded that part too. That's what I was laughing at. The "advantage" that WUSTL might give you is a lot smaller than you think. Baylor College of Medicine (which is private, not a state school) has spectacular matches in the specialties esp. at great institutions. You're proof that even a "smart" 4.0 GPA/39 MCAT premed student can be SO WRONG when it comes to extrapolating the name of an institution to it's students' residency matches.

Funny, my uncle is the associate dean for a department of neurology. Talked to him just this weekend about Penn and BCM (if I get in). He said to go to Penn because like OP, cost is a non-issue in my family. Is he wrong too? Do you qualify to say that he's wrong?

No doubt BCM is a great school at a great price with spectacular matches. I'm not saying the advantage of WUSTL is large. You inferred that. In fact, I even said "slight." However, if everything were equal and OP can put away the guilt of having his/her parents pay for the education, then I would argue for WUSTL. Otherwise, BCM.

 

[DermViser]

Funny, my uncle is the associate dean for a department of neurology. Talked to him just this weekend about Penn and BCM (if I get in). He said to go to Penn because like OP, cost is a non-issue in my family. Is he wrong too? Do you qualify to say that he's wrong?

No doubt BCM is a great school at a great price with spectacular matches. I'm not saying the advantage of WUSTL is large. You inferred that. In fact, I even said "slight." However, if everything were equal and OP can put away the guilt of having his/her parents pay for the education, then I would argue for WUSTL. Otherwise, BCM.

#1 - the comparison of freakin' UPENN (an Ivy League institution) and WashU is so starkly different it's not even funny.

#2 - You will learn when it comes to applying to residency that rarely (a.k.a. never) are things equal between 2 applicants when it comes to comparing class rank, board scores, comments on the Dean's Letter, quality of LORs (esp. from big wigs in the specialty of application), personal statement, activities during school, research, etc. This is no where on the plane of medical school admissions.

 

[DermViser]

If I were you, I'd go to WUSTL. It sounds like your family is well-off, and your parents are supportive of your education.

kevinus
Status: Medical Student (Accepted) (a.k.a. hasn't started medical school yet)

 

[sourdoughllama]

kevinus
Status: Medical Student (Accepted) (a.k.a. hasn't started medical school yet)

View attachment 179948

Chillax brah, he's just giving an opinion . He's not claiming anything besides his own personal preference

 

[mcloaf]

A lot of the stuff ITT is BS, but based on what you wrote I'd go with Baylor. Cheaper, you like the curriculum, and you like the weather.

TBH it sounds like you slept through your interview day at UM.

 

[trino]

#1 - the comparison of freakin' UPENN (an Ivy League institution) and WashU is so starkly different it's not even funny.

#2 - You will learn when it comes to applying to residency that rarely (a.k.a. never) are things equal between 2 applicants when it comes to comparing class rank, board scores, comments on the Dean's Letter, quality of LORs (esp. from big wigs in the specialty of application), personal statement, activities during school, research, etc. This is no where on the plane of medical school admissions.

Well if you believe that, then I'll take your word for it. Although, I would think the difference between UPenn and WashU would be a lot smaller than WashU and Baylor given the applicants each school draws (thats a nonconfrontational comment, so before you draw up another meme, enlighten me and I'll believe you).

I wasn't talking about in matches. I meant in OPs choice. OP has their preferences about weather, but it doesn't sound like they would be significantly less happy there. Also they may find in time that parents paying for school doesn't bother them. If these things don't outweight the living situation and eensy weensy advantage of match, then WUSTL. If they do, then BCM. Everythings a continuum and its really hard to judge where OP stands. I'm not advising OP to go anywhere, merely giving my opinion of what I would do in his/her shoes

 

[DermViser]

Chillax brah, he's just giving an opinion . He's not claiming anything besides his own personal preference

With no associated experience, as he hasn't started med school yet, contrary to his status stating "Medical Student".

 

[sourdoughllama]

With no associated experience, as he hasn't started med school yet, contrary to his status stating "Medical Student".

Well, yeah, but neither does 99% percent of practicing physicians or residency directors? Unless someone attended both for med school somehow, everyone's opinions are largely "with no associated experience" and based on hearsay and personal preferences

No qualms about the "medical student (accepted)" thing though, I don't understand it either

 

[DermViser]

Well if you believe that, then I'll take your word for it. Although, I would think the difference between UPenn and WashU would be a lot smaller than WashU and Baylor given the applicants each school draws (thats a nonconfrontational comment, so before you draw up another meme, enlighten me and I'll believe you).

I wasn't talking about in matches. I meant in OPs choice. OP has their preferences about weather, but it doesn't sound like they would be significantly less happy there. Also they may find in time that parents paying for school doesn't bother them. If these things don't outweight the living situation and eensy weensy advantage of match, then WUSTL. If they do, then BCM. Everythings a continuum and its really hard to judge where OP stands. I'm not advising OP to go anywhere, merely giving my opinion of what I would do in his/her shoes

• "Baylor is a significantly cheaper option. Between in-state tuition and a scholarship offer, tuition and fees average out to about $7,000 per year."
• "I’ve discovered over the past four years in STL that I’m not exactly keen on cold weather."
• "Houston weather is my ideal!"
• "huge fan of BCM’s 1.5-year pre-clinical curriculum, with the extra six months spent on specialized rotations, rotations abroad, and research. There seems to be flexibility in when students can take Step 1, which I like."
• "Baylor and Michigan’s curricula are entirely pass/fail"
• "WUSM and BCM have amazing hospital systems"

Seems like costs and weather aren't the only things...

 

[HelpMeChoosePlz]

I think you have to choose Baylor here. 1) Cost 2) Minimal differences in the eyes of residency directors 3) Weather 4) If you want to stay in Texas as a resident, Baylor might actually carry more weight than the WUSTL name 5) The way you wrote the original post makes it seem like you are favoring Baylor.

Two things you need to look into are 1) the living situation at Baylor and 2) if you want to go into academic medicine. If you do, that might tilt the scale a bit towards WUSTL but in my opinion, not by much.

 

[trino]

• "Baylor is a significantly cheaper option. Between in-state tuition and a scholarship offer, tuition and fees average out to about $7,000 per year."
• "I’ve discovered over the past four years in STL that I’m not exactly keen on cold weather."
• "Houston weather is my ideal!"
• "huge fan of BCM’s 1.5-year pre-clinical curriculum, with the extra six months spent on specialized rotations, rotations abroad, and research. There seems to be flexibility in when students can take Step 1, which I like."
• "Baylor and Michigan’s curricula are entirely pass/fail"
• "WUSM and BCM have amazing hospital systems"

Seems like costs and weather aren't the only things...

I could have typed everything out, but I was just giving an example of how OP should weigh both sides. If one side is greater than the other, go with that school. Who knows, living situation might be 100x more important to them than everything else. They're smart, they can figure it out.

I'm not arguing for WUSTL or against Baylor. I'm just encouraging OP to consider the factors before they make a decision because someone said to go to Baylor no questions asked

 

[DermViser]

Well if you believe that, then I'll take your word for it. Although, I would think the difference between UPenn and WashU would be a lot smaller than WashU and Baylor given the applicants each school draws (thats a nonconfrontational comment, so before you draw up another meme, enlighten me and I'll believe you).

I wasn't talking about in matches. I meant in OPs choice. OP has their preferences about weather, but it doesn't sound like they would be significantly less happy there. Also they may find in time that parents paying for school doesn't bother them. If these things don't outweight the living situation and eensy weensy advantage of match, then WUSTL. If they do, then BCM. Everythings a continuum and its really hard to judge where OP stands. I'm not advising OP to go anywhere, merely giving my opinion of what I would do in his/her shoes

I was referring to it, with the comparison of UPenn vs. Baylor (your example) vs. WashU vs. Baylor. Obviously in the first case, it would make sense to pick UPenn over Baylor.

 

[DermViser]

TBH it sounds like you slept through your interview day at UM.

 

[jturkel]

ok. so full disclosure. i interviewed at wustl and bcm for medical school and matched to michigan for residency a week or two ago. i'll give you my honest opinion.

BCM: 1.5 yrs preclinical curriculum. 1 yr of rotations. then step1. you essentially prepare for it twice since at the end of the 1.5 yrs since you prepare for (the same way as step) and take a similar test at that time written by NBME (called CBSE). A whole yr of rotations gives you tons of practice taking shelf exams and seeing many questions. step1 is becoming more and more clinical (kind of opposite how step3 is starting this summer gonna be adding more basic science stuff) so all this practice helps. it isn't a coincidence that BCM has the #1 or 2 avg step1 score every yr (not sure what it was for my class, but last yr's was 243 or 244....and if you have any idea what that means...that's a HIGH number).

yes it's p/f. first 1.5 yrs. i remember interviewing at wustl and not liking the fact only the first yr is p/f. honestly, all schools internally rank whether they tell you they do or not...that's how they determine AOA and that's how they determine your overall class standing for your dean's letter when you apply for residency. i do feel that a p/f curriculum for those preclinical yrs makes for a more friendly, collegial environment, but i haven't experienced it another way, so take that for what it's worth.

as far as hospitals, i dont care if you're at hopkins, duke, penn, stanford, etc (i interviewed at all these and more for residency), there is NOTHING like the texas medical center. period. fwiw, i canceled my wustl interview b/c i just hate st louis and location is imortant to me...but you (the op) like it so that's something to think about.
Medical students rotate primarily at these first four for core rotations
1) Ben Taub General Hospital - Houston's county hospital...imagine doing rotations at the county hospital in the country's most diverse city. My favorite hospital to rotate at and the favorite of most other students. Hands on, very diverse pathologies, things you legitimately don't see elsewhere (and i think better/crazier than Grady...you can quote me on that)
2) Michael E DeBakey VA - the largest VA in the country, 2nd largest government building after the Pentagon
3) St. Lukes Hospital - private hospital associated with Texas Heart Insitute (big time Cards/CT program), site of first successful heart transplant
4) Texas Children's Hospital - largest children's hospital in the US, ranked 4th in the contry in 2013 (haven't seen the most recent ranking) but it's usually top 5
5) Methodist - less students rotate here, but you CAN do selectives/electives here such as urology, ent, psych
6) MD Anderson - very few rotate here...4 each rotation do psychiatry, but other than that, i dont think anyone else rotates here
- also we some do clinical rotations as well as some preclinical clinical experiences at a variety of outpatient clinics

so with our hospitals, you get clinical experience with all patient populations and pathologies (county, veterans, children, private) and you see how medicine is practiced in different settings. if i can make one plug that isn't just for baylor, i'd recommend that all pre-meds strongly considering going to a medical school with a county hospital...you get so much more hands on experience/training...i met no one on the interview trail who had done as many procedures (if any at all) as i did

Cost? yah you said cost doesn't matter...but maybe your parents deep down care. looking back at it, i'm so happy i dont have as many loans as some of my other friends at other top notch schools.

Regarding city, I don't think there is much doubt that Houston is the best city of the 3. I LOVE houston....the rodeo, the food, the night life (downtown is growing, midtown is still great, the heights...i mean it's awesome). i'm not as familiar with AA or St Louis, but i know AA is a fun, college town with great night life, college sports, median age of 28, and every year is in the top 10 places to live and top 3 smartest cities in the country. i have a lot of friends there for udnergrad and business school and they love it out there, but yes it's freezing. As you said, you aren't a big fan of the cold so that might be a detractor from that program (and my only knock on the residency program there which is why i ranked it 1).

Match list? I haven't seen the WUSTL match list so can't comment on it. Havent seen the Michigan match list so cant comment on it either. Do Wash U and Michigan have better reputations nationally? Yes. But program directors actually view students from BCM much higher than their US NEws ranking because of a reputation (per a residency IM chair at a to 5 program not to be named) for being more clinically prepared than most other places due to increased responsibility, extra rotations, and the rigors of the condensed 1.5 yr preclinical curriculum....BCM is NOT an easy school. full disclosure. buddy at harvard is shocked at how much harder we have it...he also isn't as comfortable with his medicine...take that as an n=1. but i would say our match list rivals that of any other to 10 program due to many programs actively seeking BCM students. as ive mentioned in previous threads, i really dont think premeds should be looking at rank lists to try and figure out which school they want to go to. they only know big names and that's it. would you have guessed vandy is the to EM program? or the top ophtho program is in Miami, FL....or the top Neurosurg program is in Phx, AZ at Barrow? . Also, you never know the reasons for people's rank list. everyone has preferences. i know a girl interviewed at most of the top 20 prgrams but ranked a mid tier program 1 bc her fiancee is stationed there. or one that ranked his home instituion over WUSTL b/c he has a house here, even though WUSTL has a better prgram than we do. and then there is couples matching....further complicating things. So many things go into rank lists that they aren't easy to interpret. it would be beneficial to have a statitstic showing what percentage of students matched into their #1 or top3 or something.

"Why do you only have 1 or 2 plastics? Only 3 derm? So many going into IM or Medpeds or psych....must be a crappy program."...not true. you need to look at the institution for each specialty that someone matches into...someone matching ortho doesn't mean they are a better applicant than someone matching IM at a top ten program where everyone has step1 of 250s+. so much goes into the ranking. that being said (and sry for the tangent) bcm has an incredible match list and most people i spoke with matched in their top 2 choices. i have attached a copy.

if you only want a super competitive specialty, you can see we matched 7 to derm, 10 to ortho, 2 plastics, 8 ophtho, 9 uro, 4 ent, 3 rad onc. if you wanna do internal medicine at a top place, you can see we matched at duke, mass gen, stanford, several to ucsf, uw, michigan......peds we have the boston childrens and our own top 5 program. med-peds at CHOP/Penn? that's nuts. it's quite impressive

at the end of the day, you need to be happy though. if you're not going to be happy in cold weather, then dont go. if you're not gonna be happy with high tuition, then go elsewhere. if you have a draw to a certain program, then go. you can't make the wrong choice. all are great schools. i'm obviously biased and if i did it all over again (and i got into wash u and some other great programs), i'd still come back here no questions asked. going to bcm over michigan or wash u will in no way shape or form limit your options for residency. if you have any other questions about bcm, i'd be happy to answer them. and sorry for the super long post lol

edit: not sure if i mentioned this, but for those of you who have not heard of the texas medical center (TMC), it is the largest medical center in the world. google image it

 

[snowflakes]

I was referring to it, with the comparison of UPenn vs. Baylor (your example) vs. WashU vs. Baylor. Obviously in the first case, it would make sense to pick UPenn over Baylor.

Why is that? Is Penn really that much stronger than WashU? I was under the impression they were similar. Just curious.

Congrats on your choices, btw, OP!

 

[DermViser]

Why is that? Is Penn really that much stronger than WashU? I was under the impression they were similar. Just curious.

They're in the same tier - top tier of medical schools. But Penn is an Ivy League institution on the East coast. WashU is a non-Ivy League institution in the Midwest. The context was in reference to residency interviews.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

ok. so full disclosure. i interviewed at wustl and bcm for medical school and matched to michigan for residency a week or two ago. i'll give you my honest opinion.

BCM: 1.5 yrs preclinical curriculum. 1 yr of rotations. then step1. you essentially prepare for it twice since at the end of the 1.5 yrs since you prepare for (the same way as step) and take a similar test at that time written by NBME (called CBSE). A whole yr of rotations gives you tons of practice taking shelf exams and seeing many questions. step1 is becoming more and more clinical (kind of opposite how step3 is starting this summer gonna be adding more basic science stuff) so all this practice helps. it isn't a coincidence that BCM has the #1 or 2 avg step1 score every yr (not sure what it was for my class, but last yr's was 243 or 244....and if you have any idea what that means...that's a HIGH number).

yes it's p/f. first 1.5 yrs. i remember interviewing at wustl and not liking the fact only the first yr is p/f. honestly, all schools internally rank whether they tell you they do or not...that's how they determine AOA and that's how they determine your overall class standing for your dean's letter when you apply for residency. i do feel that a p/f curriculum for those preclinical yrs makes for a more friendly, collegial environment, but i haven't experienced it another way, so take that for what it's worth.

as far as hospitals, i dont care if you're at hopkins, duke, penn, stanford, etc (i interviewed at all these and more for residency), there is NOTHING like the texas medical center. period. fwiw, i canceled my wustl interview b/c i just hate st louis and location is imortant to me...but you (the op) like it so that's something to think about.
Medical students rotate primarily at these first four for core rotations
1) Ben Taub General Hospital - Houston's county hospital...imagine doing rotations at the county hospital in the country's most diverse city. My favorite hospital to rotate at and the favorite of most other students. Hands on, very diverse pathologies, things you legitimately don't see elsewhere (and i think better/crazier than Grady...you can quote me on that)
2) Michael E DeBakey VA - the largest VA in the country, 2nd largest government building after the Pentagon
3) St. Lukes Hospital - private hospital associated with Texas Heart Insitute (big time Cards/CT program), site of first successful heart transplant
4) Texas Children's Hospital - largest children's hospital in the US, ranked 4th in the contry in 2013 (haven't seen the most recent ranking) but it's usually top 5
5) Methodist - less students rotate here, but you CAN do selectives/electives here such as urology, ent, psych
6) MD Anderson - very few rotate here...4 each rotation do psychiatry, but other than that, i dont think anyone else rotates here
- also we some do clinical rotations as well as some preclinical clinical experiences at a variety of outpatient clinics

so with our hospitals, you get clinical experience with all patient populations and pathologies (county, veterans, children, private) and you see how medicine is practiced in different settings. if i can make one plug that isn't just for baylor, i'd recommend that all pre-meds strongly considering going to a medical school with a county hospital...you get so much more hands on experience/training...i met no one on the interview trail who had done as many procedures (if any at all) as i did

Cost? yah you said cost doesn't matter...but maybe your parents deep down care. looking back at it, i'm so happy i dont have as many loans as some of my other friends at other top notch schools.

Regarding city, I don't think there is much doubt that Houston is the best city of the 3. I LOVE houston....the rodeo, the food, the night life (downtown is growing, midtown is still great, the heights...i mean it's awesome). i'm not as familiar with AA or St Louis, but i know AA is a fun, college town with great night life, college sports, median age of 28, and every year is in the top 10 places to live and top 3 smartest cities in the country. i have a lot of friends there for udnergrad and business school and they love it out there, but yes it's freezing. As you said, you aren't a big fan of the cold so that might be a detractor from that program (and my only knock on the residency program there which is why i ranked it 1).

Match list? I haven't seen the WUSTL match list so can't comment on it. Havent seen the Michigan match list so cant comment on it either. Do Wash U and Michigan have better reputations nationally? Yes. But program directors actually view students from BCM much higher than their US NEws ranking because of a reputation (per a residency IM chair at a to 5 program not to be named) for being more clinically prepared than most other places due to increased responsibility, extra rotations, and the rigors of the condensed 1.5 yr preclinical curriculum....BCM is NOT an easy school. full disclosure. buddy at harvard is shocked at how much harder we have it...he also isn't as comfortable with his medicine...take that as an n=1. but i would say our match list rivals that of any other to 10 program due to many programs actively seeking BCM students. as ive mentioned in previous threads, i really dont think premeds should be looking at rank lists to try and figure out which school they want to go to. they only know big names and that's it. would you have guessed vandy is the to EM program? or the top ophtho program is in Miami, FL....or the top Neurosurg program is in Phx, AZ at Barrow? . Also, you never know the reasons for people's rank list. everyone has preferences. i know a girl interviewed at most of the top 20 prgrams but ranked a mid tier program 1 bc her fiancee is stationed there. or one that ranked his home instituion over WUSTL b/c he has a house here, even though WUSTL has a better prgram than we do. and then there is couples matching....further complicating things. So many things go into rank lists that they aren't easy to interpret. it would be beneficial to have a statitstic showing what percentage of students matched into their #1 or top3 or something.

"Why do you only have 1 or 2 plastics? Only 3 derm? So many going into IM or Medpeds or psych....must be a crappy program."...not true. you need to look at the institution for each specialty that someone matches into...someone matching ortho doesn't mean they are a better applicant than someone matching IM at a top ten program where everyone has step1 of 250s+. so much goes into the ranking. that being said (and sry for the tangent) bcm has an incredible match list and most people i spoke with matched in their top 2 choices. i have attached a copy. View attachment 179949

if you only want a super competitive specialty, you can see we matched 7 to derm, 10 to ortho, 2 plastics, 8 ophtho, 9 uro, 4 ent, 3 rad onc. if you wanna do internal medicine at a top place, you can see we matched at duke, mass gen, stanford, several to ucsf, uw, michigan......peds we have the boston childrens and our own top 5 program. med-peds at CHOP/Penn? that's nuts. it's quite impressive

at the end of the day, you need to be happy though. if you're not going to be happy in cold weather, then dont go. if you're not gonna be happy with high tuition, then go elsewhere. if you have a draw to a certain program, then go. you can't make the wrong choice. all are great schools. i'm obviously biased and if i did it all over again (and i got into wash u and some other great programs), i'd still come back here no questions asked. going to bcm over michigan or wash u will in no way shape or form limit your options for residency. if you have any other questions about bcm, i'd be happy to answer them. and sorry for the super long post lol

edit: not sure if i mentioned this, but for those of you who have not heard of the texas medical center (TMC), it is the largest medical center in the world. google image it

I'm true blue for Michigan, so here is the 2014 match list, U of M likes its own:

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/sites/medicine.umich.edu.medschool/files/2014MatchList-pdf.pdf

I grew up in Ann Arbor, went to undergrad at U of M, will matriculate at U of M Med school, and will probably die in A2. Great city for the midwest!! Best part, cheap to live here, and the international airport is only 1/2 hour away. You can afford to travel if you live in the midwest. Spring summer and fall are wonderful in Michigan. Can't lie, winters suck, but when the first nice day comes around, the town really sparks. Great college town, lots of stuff to do. As mentioned, lots of grad students around town, so average age is in mid-20s, so a lot of people to meet. Texas is absolutely miserable in the summer, so associate your summer indoors with winters indoors in A2. GO BLUE!

 

[jturkel]

I'm true blue for Michigan, so here is the 2014 match list, U of M likes its own:

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/sites/medicine.umich.edu.medschool/files/2014MatchList-pdf.pdf

I grew up in Ann Arbor, went to undergrad at U of M, will matriculate at U of M Med school, and will probably die in A2. Great city for the midwest!! Best part, cheap to live here, and the international airport is only 1/2 hour away. You can afford to travel if you live in the midwest. Spring summer and fall are wonderful in Michigan. Can't lie, winters suck, but when the first nice day comes around, the town really sparks. Great college town, lots of stuff to do. As mentioned, lots of grad students around town, so average age is in mid-20s, so a lot of people to meet. Texas is absolutely miserable in the summer, so associate your summer indoors with winters indoors in A2. GO BLUE!

gotta pick your poison. i prefer hot weather over cold weather (tho that's me...and this thread is about the OP ha). either way, i'm blue now and headed to michigan in two months.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

I'm true blue for Michigan, so here is the 2014 match list, U of M likes its own:

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/sites/medicine.umich.edu.medschool/files/2014MatchList-pdf.pdf

I grew up in Ann Arbor, went to undergrad at U of M, will matriculate at U of M Med school, and will probably die in A2. Great city for the midwest!! Best part, cheap to live here, and the international airport is only 1/2 hour away. You can afford to travel if you live in the midwest. Spring summer and fall are wonderful in Michigan. Can't lie, winters suck, but when the first nice day comes around, the town really sparks. Great college town, lots of stuff to do. As mentioned, lots of grad students around town, so average age is in mid-20s, so a lot of people to meet. Texas is absolutely miserable in the summer, so associate your summer indoors with winters indoors in A2. GO BLUE!

President Obama is in Ann Arbor today, he just ate at our world famous Zingermans!! We got the best deli in the world in A2!! GO BLUE

 

[Asperphys]

at the end of the day, you need to be happy though. if you're not going to be happy in cold weather, then dont go. if you're not gonna be happy with high tuition, then go elsewhere. if you have a draw to a certain program, then go. you can't make the wrong choice. all are great schools. i'm obviously biased and if i did it all over again (and i got into wash u and some other great programs), i'd still come back here no questions asked. going to bcm over michigan or wash u will in no way shape or form limit your options for residency. if you have any other questions about bcm, i'd be happy to answer them. and sorry for the super long post lol

I totally second this. Best advice on this thread.

Also to help clear up some misconceptions, here are a few things I learned from the residency interview trail. Program directors and the resident selection committee look at your Step 1 scores, AOA status, clerkship grades and the quality of your evaluations and LORs (both WHO wrote them and how well they know you) above anything else to decide who to interview. Some specialties really care about your personal statement (don't you dare write about being psychologically scarred as a teenager because of acne when applying to derm!), others are okay even if it's bland as long as you don't seem crazy. You can compensate, if you're a little short of ideal in terms of grades or Step1 scores to some degree, by doing research, publishing papers or other accomplishments. Now here's an advantage to WashU: research and other ways to pad your resume are ridiculously easy to access. When ranking prior to the Match, how you did on your INTERVIEW is now weighed heavily, often over the objective numbers, because they are trying to find the BEST FIT in their program. WHERE you went to school hardly matters if you're an AMG (IMGs tend to need astronomical Step 1 scores to secure interviews at the most competitive placesin the first place) unless the program is comparing people who are identical in everything else-- which hardly ever happens. In short, if you were at the bottom 1/3 at WashU, you don't have a good chance against the AOA, Step 1 260+, all honors kid from other US schools. If you did really poorly on Step1/2, and your clerkships, even the WashU name cannot guarantee you anything.

You've glossed over all merits of UM, so I'm guessing you weighed the weather heavily against going to Ann Arbor. Nothing wrong with that. BCM is a fantastic school. I also think that the 1.5 years preclinical is a great idea (because Step 1 is becoming very clinical), and I'm taking the relatively high Step 1 scores are proof that it works. If you're happy there, you'll do great. I've met a number of BCM students/graduates (from the interview trail and from among the current residents at WashU) who are very sharp, intelligent and accomplished physicians who really got things together. Good luck!

 

[Asperphys]

They're in the same tier - top tier of medical schools. But Penn is an Ivy League institution on the East coast. WashU is a non-Ivy League institution in the Midwest. The context was in reference to residency interviews.

I might be totally misunderstanding your post but I hope you're not arguing that just because UPenn is labeled "Ivy-League" it's necessarily better than WashU. I thought that designation matters very little when you get past college. Maybe it's different for YOUR dermatology residency interviews, but attendings I've worked with during my rotations (even our attending dermatologists who trained at Vanderbilt, UPenn, WashU etc), my clinical advisers (who trained at Brigham, JHU, MGH etc) and even people who interviewed me this past season think UPenn, WashU and a whole slew of medical schools are totally equivalent.

I will admit that to outsiders, UPenn certainly has better name recognition. Some might even argue that Philly is a better city than STL. CHOP is certainly ranked higher than SLCH in the USNews listings. Would I cite them as proof that UPenn is better? Nope. The opinion of attendings matter to me more in this case. Having interviewed at both (I actually was blown away by UPenn's resources, buildings and bottomless money pit-- but it's like WashU), I still cannot tell which one is definitively better.

In any case, someone who is happier at BCM than either school, definitely should go to BCM.

 

[DermViser]

I might be totally misunderstanding your post but I hope you're not arguing that just because UPenn is labeled "Ivy-League" it's necessarily better than WashU.

Yes, you are "totally misunderstanding" my post, but thank you.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

gotta pick your poison. i prefer hot weather over cold weather (tho that's me...and this thread is about the OP ha). either way, i'm blue now and headed to michigan in two months.

Better get your hat, gloves and boots at end of season sale, as you'll need them next year. Congrats on U of M residency. We'll be nice to you Texas folks.
But beware, A2 is very liberal, and a blue state, none of that red state stuff in the Great Lakes State.

 

[mcloaf]

Better get your hat, gloves and boots at end of season sale, as you'll need them next year. Congrats on U of M residency. We'll be nice to you Texas folks.
But beware, A2 is very liberal, and a blue state, none of that red state stuff in the Great Lakes State.

Lol. Ann Arbor is pretty liberal, but the surrounding areas aren't particularly progressive. The state attorney general is on a crusade against gay marriage and people here now have to buy rape insurance. I'd say the state as a whole is somewhere in the middle, sort of a mixed bag. FWIW plenty of cities in the South are more forward thinking than you might expect.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

Lol. Ann Arbor is pretty liberal, but the surrounding areas aren't particularly progressive. The state attorney general is on a crusade against gay marriage and people here now have to buy rape insurance. I'd say the state as a whole is somewhere in the middle, sort of a mixed bag. FWIW plenty of cities in the South are more forward thinking than you might expect.

You mean all Texans aren't gun toting, bible thumping, football loving, cowboy boot wearer ****kickers?? LOL, too bad I took my cues from President Bush, Gov. Perry, et al.
Guess I'll throw out the stereotypes then and the elected leaders don't represent all southern folks.

True, outside of Ann Arbor is Lily white, and up north can be scary red neck, but Ann Arbor proper is pretty awesome for bleeding heart liberals!! U of M does lack a bit in diversity though, which is a sore spot for the U of M administration. Funny, we had 2 women at the top of the pecking order, who are leaving this summer, now we have a bunch of middle aged white guys in the interim. One step forward, two steps back. We'll see who they recruit permanently.

 

[jturkel]

Better get your hat, gloves and boots at end of season sale, as you'll need them next year. Congrats on U of M residency. We'll be nice to you Texas folks.
But beware, A2 is very liberal, and a blue state, none of that red state stuff in the Great Lakes State.

haha. honestly, the only other thing i'm sad about is that there isn't a chickfila nearby :/

 

[Psai]

Sounds like you want to go to Baylor and your pros for Wash U are not very good, especially since you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to match lists.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

haha. honestly, the only other thing i'm sad about is that there isn't a chickfila nearby :/

Ah, but happy hour at the Blue Tractor, breakfast at Angelos or Northside Grill, lunch at Zingermans, dinners at all the places on Main Street, Beers in the summer on the deck of Dominicks. Oh, the places you will go . . . we have some mighty fine establishments in A2.

 

[mcloaf]

Ah, but happy hour at the Blue Tractor, breakfast at Angelos or Northside Grill, lunch at Zingermans, dinners at all the places on Main Street, Beers in the summer on the deck of Dominicks. Oh, the places you will go . . . we have some mighty fine establishments in A2.

Stop telling people. It's crowded enough with you damn undergrads as it is.

 

[Great White Buffalo]

Stop telling people. It's crowded enough with you damn undergrads as it is.

Ah, been here since 1997, and that makes me an official "Townie" in the Ann Abor dialect.

 

[GABAergic]

You mean all Texans aren't gun toting, bible thumping, football loving, cowboy boot wearer ****kickers?? LOL, too bad I took my cues from President Bush, Gov. Perry, et al.
Guess I'll throw out the stereotypes then and the elected leaders don't represent all southern folks.

Haha! You do realize the mayor of Houston is a woman...and homosexual. And there hasn't been a republican mayor in Houston for over 30 years. And the gubna before "W" was a female democrat. Texas used to be a solid blue state.

To the OP, sounds like you should come to Baylor. It's a great place, and you'll be well prepared for residency. Any perceived difference in reputation between wustl, BCM, and UMich is easy outweighed by your own future performance during med school.

Alright I gotta go. The cows just got out!

 

[Great White Buffalo]

Haha! You do realize the mayor of Houston is a woman...and homosexual. And there hasn't been a republican mayor in Houston for over 30 years. And the gubna before "W" was a female democrat. Texas used to be a solid blue state.

To the OP, sounds like you should come to Baylor. It's a great place, and you'll be well prepared for residency. Any perceived difference in reputation between wustl, BCM, and UMich is easy outweighed by your own future performance during med school.

Alright I gotta go. The cows just got out!

Yes, I'm too young to remember Ann Richards, but during my time, it has all been RED from W. on.

 

[yuiness]

4th year WashU student here. I also got into both Baylor and UMich when I applied, so I had a similar decision to make. I chose WashU for nebulous reasons at the time, but I'm glad that I did. I went into medical with no idea about what I wanted to do and eventually found my way to a competitive surgical subspecialty. Given that I had no idea what I wanted to do when I started medical school, I think that I wouldn't have found my way to my dream specialty if I hadn't come to WashU. Our 3rd year curriculum allowed us to spend 1-2 months on subspecialty surgery during our surgery block, as well 1 month on an elective rotation, which gave us a lot of freedom to explore some of the more unusual specialties (in addition to your standard Gen Surg, Medicine, Neuro, Peds, OB/Gyn). As a result, I was able to spend a full month on service with the surgical subspecialty that I eventually decided to pursue. I know that, for example, most other institutions only have room for 1-2 weeks of subspecialty surgery rotations during 3rd year, and I don't think I would have been able to commit to a specialty based only on a week of experience. This kind of stuff won't matter for the majority of people, but it made a big difference for me, so I think it's worth mentioning.

For what it's worth, my classmates did match extremely well this year, though I'm sure Baylor and UMich also had impressive match lists.

 

[jturkel]

yuiness makes a good point. some curriculums allow you to explore specialties outside of your standard core rotations. this is another area where Baylor excels. you start rotations as a second semester second year...starting six months before everyone else in the country allows you to experiment with other non-core specialties sooner. For my one semester as a second year, I was able to do a month of radiology in elective, adddition, and then as a third year was able to do electives in dermatology, anesthesiology, GI (full month), research (full month), nephrology (full month). it's definitely nice to have the flexibility in scheduling since many programs do not allow you to take such electives until late third yr or even fourth yr when it's really too late

 

[DermViser]

yuiness makes a good point. some curriculums allow you to explore specialties outside of your standard core rotations. this is another area where Baylor excels. you start rotations as a second semester second year...starting six months before everyone else in the country allows you to experiment with other non-core specialties sooner. For my one semester as a second year, I was able to do a month of radiology in elective, adddition, and then as a third year was able to do electives in dermatology, anesthesiology, GI (full month), research (full month), nephrology (full month). it's definitely nice to have the flexibility in scheduling since many programs do not allow you to take such electives until late third yr or even fourth yr when it's really too late

Was just going to say that Baylor is almost geared toward having you experience other specialties: 1.5 years of preclinical (freeing up 6 months) AND the way they arrange their clinicals: https://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/?PMID=7463

 

[Asperphys]

I mostly agree with the above.

But it's gonna be a matter of taste. 8 weeks of psychiatry, OB-Gyn and Peds is enough to make me wanna shoot myself. Okay, I'm half joking. I did enjoy all 4 weeks in plastic surgery though (instead of just 2). So I prefer WashU because there is less that is required, making room for electives despite the shorter clinical segment.

It is nice though that BCM forces you to experience nearly all the surgical subspecialties. It's one of the reasons why I would love it if WashU cut out some of the 2nd year lectures and gave us more time to sample specialties early. In any case, I still got to do rotations in Derm, radiology, etc but as a 4th year. By then, I was pretty committed to whatever residency I was going for and was doing stuff for fun and extra learning.

 

[DermViser]

I mostly agree with the above.

But it's gonna be a matter of taste. 8 weeks of psychiatry, OB-Gyn and Peds is enough to make me wanna shoot myself. Okay, I'm half joking. I did enjoy all 4 weeks in plastic surgery though (instead of just 2). So I prefer WashU because there is less that is required, making room for electives despite the shorter clinical segment.

It is nice though that BCM forces you to experience nearly all the surgical subspecialties. It's one of the reasons why I would love it if WashU cut out some of the 2nd year lectures and gave us more time to sample specialties early. In any case, I still got to do rotations in Derm, radiology, etc but as a 4th year. By then, I was pretty committed to whatever residency I was going for and was doing stuff for fun and extra learning.

With the exception of Psychiatry, which is usually 1 month, OB-Gyn/Peds/IM/Surgery are usually 2 months long each, at nearly all medical schools. Much better than say at WashU where students do 3 months of Internal Medicne and 3 months of Surgery (seriously 2 months is enough). Ugh.

Where is Baylor "forcing" you to experience nearly all the surgical subspecialties? You only have to select 2 2-week rotations from the selectives, which you can select the non-surgical specialties from Group B (Anesthesia/Geriatrics/PM&R/Derm/Genetics). Adding their third year up, though, Baylor still has 5 months of "extra" time left.

 

[Asperphys]

With the exception of Psychiatry, which is usually 1 month, OB-Gyn/Peds/IM/Surgery are usually 2 months long each, at nearly all medical schools. Much better than say at WashU where students do 3 months of Internal Medicne and 3 months of Surgery (seriously 2 months is enough). Ugh.

Where is Baylor "forcing" you to experience nearly all the surgical subspecialties? You only have to select 2 2-week rotations from the selectives, which you can select the non-surgical specialties from Group B (Anesthesia/Geriatrics/PM&R/Derm/Genetics). Adding their third year up, though, Baylor still has 5 months of "extra" time left.

Like I said, it's a matter of taste. I'll take a whole month of surgery any day over 2 extra weeks of OB-Gyn, Peds or Psych. Obviously BCM's curriculum is better for you.

Surgery for us is 1 month gen surg, 1 month subspecialty, and 1 month electives that could be yet another surgery subspecialty or might not be surgical at all like PM&R, rheumatology (yeah, weird but justified bc it's ortho related) or even anesthesiology. It's not nearly as intolerable for the non-surgeons as it seems. I like spending 4 weeks per service because I got LORs as a 3rd yr-- plenty of time for attendings to get to know you in 4 weeks vs 2. And you misunderstood. I actually meant to compliment the system of having 2x 2weeks for Group A subspecialties. I would have liked to know what my peers in all surgical fields are doing and that system has the potential to give more exposure (up to 4!) than our 2x subspecialty surgery. But then again, I secured LORs early and that worked out better for me.

3 months of medicine was also more flexible than it sounds. 1 month was general inpatient. 1 month was inpatient cardiology or another general inpatient service (your choice) and the last month can be family medicine or outpatient medicine subspecialty (nephro, allergy, endo, geriatrics etc, cards, pulm etc)/private practice shadowing. That's more similar to what most med schools are doing than you make it seem.

And I did agree that the extra 5-6 months of electives in lieu of some of our lectures would have been preferable to me as well.

 

[yuiness]

With the exception of Psychiatry, which is usually 1 month, OB-Gyn/Peds/IM/Surgery are usually 2 months long each, at nearly all medical schools. Much better than say at WashU where students do 3 months of Internal Medicne and 3 months of Surgery (seriously 2 months is enough). Ugh.

Where is Baylor "forcing" you to experience nearly all the surgical subspecialties? You only have to select 2 2-week rotations from the selectives, which you can select the non-surgical specialties from Group B (Anesthesia/Geriatrics/PM&R/Derm/Genetics). Adding their third year up, though, Baylor still has 5 months of "extra" time left.

As I mentioned, WashU's schedule ended up working well for me because I had the opportunity to spend 4 weeks as a 3rd year on service with the surgical subspecialty that I eventually decided to apply in. This allowed me to see several different aspects of the specialty, which turned out to have much more variety and scope than I previously imagined, and I feel that this allowed me to make an informed decision before committing to scheduling away rotations, etc. for the beginning of my 4th year. I think that if I had only had 1-2 weeks worth of experience, I wouldn't have been comfortable choosing to pursue it.

This was something that ended up working out for me in a way that I didn't necessarily expect, and it certainly wasn't something that I knew would happen at the time that I chose to come to WashU. My only real point in sharing my experience is this: I never paid too much attention to the 3rd year curriculum at the time that I was applying to medical school, but I think that it's something that I should have paid more attention to and something that I now want to advise others to pay more attention to. I think that many people, even if they don't know exactly what they want to specialize in, usually have some idea of whether they want to do something more procedure-oriented vs. more cerebral, more specialized vs. primary care, etc. I certainly knew that I wanted to do something procedural and probably wanted to specialize. It's worth it to take a look at the 3rd year curriculum (and 4th year, for that matter) to see where they put their emphasis and whether it suits your interests.

Another point about the curriculum at WashU that I personally am grateful for: the all-elective 4th year schedule. As a future surgeon, I wouldn't be able to imagine being required to do a Medicine sub-I. I'm sure that many of my Medicine-oriented classmates feel the same way about Surgery. WashU trusts us, with the help of our advisors, to decide which rotations will be most useful to us based on our intended career paths.

 

[jturkel]

Another point about the curriculum at WashU that I personally am grateful for: the all-elective 4th year schedule. As a future surgeon, I wouldn't be able to imagine being required to do a Medicine sub-I. I'm sure that many of my Medicine-oriented classmates feel the same way about Surgery. WashU trusts us, with the help of our advisors, to decide which rotations will be most useful to us based on our intended career paths.

Yah I'm glad at BCM that if you are doing a medicine residency, you don't need to do a surgical sub-i and vice versa. i know some medical schools (not sure which )require their students to do both a surgical and a medicine sub-i

 

[jturkel]

for clarification on the required BCM rotations, we do

- 3 months of internal medicine: 1 mo at county, 1 mo at VA, and 1 mo at private
-2 months of surgery: 1 mo general; 2 weeks of EM; 2 weeks of either CT, congenital heart, transplant, vascular, or pedi surg; and
- after surgery, Group A selectives: choose 2 and do each for 2 weeks: ortho, ophtho, ent, uro
-2 months of peds - 2 weeks inpatient, 2 weeks pedi EM, 2 weeks neonatology, 2 weeks outpatient/clinic
-2 months OBGYN: 1 month of OB and 1 month of GYN (these are also broken down to a variety of nights L&D, days L&D, OBGYN consult, gyn onc, gyn surg, obgyn clinic)
-1 mo of neurology (either at VA, county, Neuro ICU, or pedi neuro at TCH)
- 1 mo of family medicine
- 2 months of psych, with one month at different sites (such as inpatient psych at VA or county, psych consult, drug addiction, psych clinic, pedi psych, psych at MD Anderson, EM psych)
- group B selectives: 2 weeks each of 2 of the following: anesthesiology (can be general, OBGYN, pedi, or cardiovascular), dermatology, PM&R, geriatrics, genetics (quite popular given our #1 genetics program), plastic surg, and neurosurg
- a sub-i (either in medicine, surgery, pedi, or family med)

Then of course you can take tons of electives and have 5-6 mo extra to allow you flexibility to take them earlier or just do more overall

 

[DermViser]

As I mentioned, WashU's schedule ended up working well for me because I had the opportunity to spend 4 weeks as a 3rd year on service with the surgical subspecialty that I eventually decided to apply in. This allowed me to see several different aspects of the specialty, which turned out to have much more variety and scope than I previously imagined, and I feel that this allowed me to make an informed decision before committing to scheduling away rotations, etc. for the beginning of my 4th year. I think that if I had only had 1-2 weeks worth of experience, I wouldn't have been comfortable choosing to pursue it.

This was something that ended up working out for me in a way that I didn't necessarily expect, and it certainly wasn't something that I knew would happen at the time that I chose to come to WashU. My only real point in sharing my experience is this: I never paid too much attention to the 3rd year curriculum at the time that I was applying to medical school, but I think that it's something that I should have paid more attention to and something that I now want to advise others to pay more attention to. I think that many people, even if they don't know exactly what they want to specialize in, usually have some idea of whether they want to do something more procedure-oriented vs. more cerebral, more specialized vs. primary care, etc. I certainly knew that I wanted to do something procedural and probably wanted to specialize. It's worth it to take a look at the 3rd year curriculum (and 4th year, for that matter) to see where they put their emphasis and whether it suits your interests.

Another point about the curriculum at WashU that I personally am grateful for: the all-elective 4th year schedule. As a future surgeon, I wouldn't be able to imagine being required to do a Medicine sub-I. I'm sure that many of my Medicine-oriented classmates feel the same way about Surgery. WashU trusts us, with the help of our advisors, to decide which rotations will be most useful to us based on our intended career paths.

I don't know of any schools that require EVERYONE to do a Surgery and Medicine Sub-I. They may just require a Sub-I period, and the student chooses which one.