Tufts vs. SUNY downstate

[ahuh227]

I was accepted to tufts but recently received a letter of acceptance from downstate as well. There is about 10k/year difference in tuition (cheaper for downstate). I know Tufts has a better pre-clinical education and reputation outside of nyc, but I was wondering how its clinical experience/exposure compares to that of downstate.

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[CytokineStorm]

Sorry, don't know much about these schools, but you might have better success if you post this in the 2009-10 application forums

 

[GoSpursGo]

Sorry, don't know much about these schools, but you might have better success if you post this in the 2009-10 application forums

Indeed. Moving to 2009-2010 School Specifics

 

[ahuh227]

oops, wrong forum
could you pleas move this to 09-10? thx

 

[justinbaily]

I think that the SUNY's allow you to gain IS residency after your first year, in which case it's probably significantly cheaper than Tufts. Tufts is just absurdly expensive.

 

[cpants]

Downstate is a pretty solid school. I doubt Tufts would be worth the extra 10k/year, let alone the difference if you get in-state residency.

 

[ahuh227]

well aside from the costs, I am wondering which program would provide better clinical exposure

 

[cpants]

Both probably provide excellent clinical exposure. Downstate is located in a much bigger city and a much more dangerous city, so you will probably see a lot more trauma there. I'm sure Tufts provides good exposure too, though they do compete with Harvard and BU, which may siphon off some of the more crazy and interesting stuff.

 

[gujuDoc]

Both probably provide excellent clinical exposure. Downstate is located in a much bigger city and a much more dangerous city, so you will probably see a lot more trauma there. I'm sure Tufts provides good exposure too, though they do compete with Harvard and BU, which may siphon off some of the more crazy and interesting stuff.

Its not really a competition with the other 2 Boston schools.

Boston University is in Southend and tends to see a lot of the african american and latino patients whereas Tufts is in Chinatown so gets to see a greater demographic of Asian patients. This is the way that one professor put it at BU this past year when he taught us for a clinical biochem lecture and were talking about stroke patients and different demographics amongst such.

Both of these schools are inner city schools.

Harvard is harvard, its the premiere research university. Where you see probably a lot of the rarest of rarest cases like at Hopkins by virtue of what it has the ability to do because of its many well known centers but it is often research focused and some of the hospitals affiliated with it also have affiliations with schools like BU such as the VA.

I don't think its a competition. Patients will be sent either where they are closer to or where the people with the best expertise in their problem is. So if a better say trauma surgeon is in BMC they will go there then say MGH. If things happen closer to that side then they will go to BMC then MGH, and vice versa. you get the idea.

 

[cpants]

Its not really a competition with the other 2 Boston schools.

Boston University is in Southend and tends to see a lot of the african american and latino patients whereas Tufts is in Chinatown so gets to see a greater demographic of Asian patients. This is the way that one professor put it at BU this past year when he taught us for a clinical biochem lecture and were talking about stroke patients and different demographics amongst such.

Both of these schools are inner city schools.

Harvard is harvard, its the premiere research university. Where you see probably a lot of the rarest of rarest cases like at Hopkins by virtue of what it has the ability to do because of its many well known centers but it is often research focused and some of the hospitals affiliated with it also have affiliations with schools like BU such as the VA.

I don't think its a competition. Patients will be sent either where they are closer to or where the people with the best expertise in their problem is. So if a better say trauma surgeon is in BMC they will go there then say MGH. If things happen closer to that side then they will go to BMC then MGH, and vice versa. you get the idea.

Like I said, I'm sure you get a good clinical experience at Tufts. However, the greater Boston area including suburbs is smaller than Brooklyn by about a million people and there are 3 major medical schools there compared to one in Brooklyn. Just by simple mathematics, you are going to see a wider variety of disease at Downstate, especially when you consider that people with something rare or very serious are more likely to choose Harvard due to sheer reputation.

I've never heard of someone choosing a hospital based on the rep of a trauma surgeon. In trauma, you usually go to the closest place.

 

[JJMrK]

I'd go to Downstate because of the cost.

 

[gujuDoc]

Like I said, I'm sure you get a good clinical experience at Tufts. However, the greater Boston area including suburbs is smaller than Brooklyn by about a million people and there are 3 major medical schools there compared to one in Brooklyn. Just by simple mathematics, you are going to see a wider variety of disease at Downstate, especially when you consider that people with something rare or very serious are more likely to choose Harvard due to sheer reputation.

I've never heard of someone choosing a hospital based on the rep of a trauma surgeon. In trauma, you usually go to the closest place.

I think you are missing my point. And I never answered the original quesstion of where I would go.

The answer to my original question would probably be SUNY downstate actually because I like a few things about the school and its location.

My main point was that someone made it sound like Tufts and BU and Harvard are competing for patients. They are not competing because people either go based on where the best specialists are in the area or where the closest hospital is to where they are at. That was my point. The patient demographics are different at the different hospitals. 2 are relatively inner city hospitals although with decent amount of research and one is a more research focused hospital. I've heard it described this way to me many times before.

Stop taking my example so literally rather then seeing the big picture of what I'm saying as you are doing.

Also I don't deny your points about brooklyn. I actually wouldnt mind getting into SUNY Downstate and really like what I've read about the program there. I don't doubt the thing about NYC if you say based on population being more and esp. in brooklyn for that reason.

But I don't want you to mislead people when you use words like COMPETING to describe Tufts, BU, and Harvard.

They are not competing and see different demographics. That was all my central point was.

Brooklyn though has a lot of advantages no doubt with the greater NYC population, some of their programs I like like this neuro program my friend told me about seems interesting, and their location in brooklyn the borough famous for having the places like little italy and little india and the middle eastern corner etc. etc. i.e. the best ethnic areas, makes it attractive as a place yet probably more dangerous no doubt.

 

[gujuDoc]

I'd go to Downstate because of the cost.

This is a good point. Cost of downstate after 1 year is significantly reduced. If you were comparing between buffalo and Tufts I'd probably have done tufts for the city atmosphere but brooklyn is one of the 5 boroughs of NYC so I feel like I'd go to Downstate over tufts myself.

I think both are good schools but living in brooklyn I think would be nice. My friend has this lined up as one of her top choices for the neuro program I alluded to in my last post.

 

[cpants]

I think you are missing my point. And I never answered the original quesstion of where I would go.

The answer to my original question would probably be SUNY downstate actually because I like a few things about the school and its location.

My main point was that someone made it sound like Tufts and BU and Harvard are competing for patients. They are not competing because people either go based on where the best specialists are in the area or where the closest hospital is to where they are at. That was my point. The patient demographics are different at the different hospitals. 2 are relatively inner city hospitals although with decent amount of research and one is a more research focused hospital. I've heard it described this way to me many times before.

Stop taking my example so literally rather then seeing the big picture of what I'm saying as you are doing.

Also I don't deny your points about brooklyn. I actually wouldnt mind getting into SUNY Downstate and really like what I've read about the program there. I don't doubt the thing about NYC if you say based on population being more and esp. in brooklyn for that reason.

But I don't want you to mislead people when you use words like COMPETING to describe Tufts, BU, and Harvard.

They are not competing and see different demographics. That was all my central point was.

Brooklyn though has a lot of advantages no doubt with the greater NYC population, some of their programs I like like this neuro program my friend told me about seems interesting, and their location in brooklyn the borough famous for having the places like little italy and little india and the middle eastern corner etc. etc. i.e. the best ethnic areas, makes it attractive as a place yet probably more dangerous no doubt.

I think it's a little ridiculous to say that Tufts, BU, and Harvard are not competing for patients. Of course they are, and I don't see how that statement is misleading. They are also competing with all of the community hospitals in the area. They are not only competing for patients, but for the best faculty, staff, and students. You do realize these schools are all within a few miles of each other, right? I think you mean to say that there is enough to go around, a statement with which I agree.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think it's a little ridiculous to say that Tufts, BU, and Harvard are not competing for patients. Of course they are, and I don't see how that statement is misleading. They are also competing with all of the community hospitals in the area. They are not only competing for patients, but for the best faculty, staff, and students. You do realize these schools are all within a few miles of each other, right? I think you mean to say that there is enough to go around, a statement with which I agree.

For faculty staff and students I would agree. For patients, again, they serve different demographics and again area and who is where will dictate where a patient goes.

That is like saying that someone in the bronx is competing with someone in brooklyn for the same patients. Or like saying UF is competing for USF's patients. I disagree completely on that one with you but we will agree to disagree.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think it's a little ridiculous to say that Tufts, BU, and Harvard are not competing for patients. Of course they are, and I don't see how that statement is misleading. They are also competing with all of the community hospitals in the area. They are not only competing for patients, but for the best faculty, staff, and students. You do realize these schools are all within a few miles of each other, right? I think you mean to say that there is enough to go around, a statement with which I agree.

I do realize that they are within a few miles of each other. That said, I also realize having actually lived in boston that my professors who made a very distinct point about the different demographics they serve had a point made after years within the school that was more valid.

I do agree that they are competing for best faculty, staff, and students. But I don't believe that they are competing for patients because as you pointed out there are enough to go around and as I pointed out the demographics in chinatown side vs. that in BMC vs. that near Harvard hospitals is different.

This is evident from everyone I've ever talked to in BMC who has done either medical or dental related training or teaching there.

Furthermore, the point about being in competition for faculty, staff, etc. is also true amongst schools in different cities in a given state

So just cuz SUNY downstate is isolated from AECOM in the bronx and Columbia and Cornell in Manhattan doesn't mean that all the NY schools aren't competing with each other for faculty, staff, and students as well.

So that point is kind of moot point.

But that said, based on the bigger city aspect of NYC and diversity of Brooklyn especially, I'd imagine Downstate has a good clinical experience. And that point of your original post I agree with completely.

 

[mdeast]

I was accepted to tufts but recently received a letter of acceptance from downstate as well. There is about 10k/year difference in tuition (cheaper for downstate). I know Tufts has a better pre-clinical education and reputation outside of nyc, but I was wondering how its clinical experience/exposure compares to that of downstate.

40k isn't a huge difference. Ask yourself this question...where would you rather live for 4 years. At SUNY Downstate in Brooklyn or in downtown/Chinatown in Boston. These are much different areas with a much different social life.

Personally, I'd choose Tufts on location. Chinatown isn't eh greatest, but you're still in the city close to some cool things. Also, the opportunity to do away rotations at MGH or BU. Tufts has less of a academic isolation than Downstate might feel like...and certainly, a slightly higher reputation.

 

[MegaProjectile]

The clinical exposure at Downstate is usually overrated. As a 3rd/4th year there, be ready for lots of scutwork. This is common at new york hospitals but Downstate kinda takes it up a notch. These bring in very little educational value and take away from your studying. The students get to see a lot of interesting cases but they are usually overworked.

Tufts med school students get to rotate at other hospitals in the boston area besides the university hospital. So the clinical exposure is well covered.

 

[Vulcan]

The clinical exposure at Downstate is usually overrated. As a 3rd/4th year there, be ready for lots of scutwork. This is common at new york hospitals but Downstate kinda takes it up a notch. These bring in very little educational value and take away from your studying. The students get to see a lot of interesting cases but they are usually overworked.

Tufts med school students get to rotate at other hospitals in the boston area besides the university hospital. So the clinical exposure is well covered.

I've heard this a couple of times so let me correct this point of view. At Downstate, the third and fourth years get to do alot of scutwork such as placing IVs and such. This is a good thing, and here's why. After speaking with many doctors from various hospitals, it's been made clear that they can pick out residents who went to medical school at Downstate. These residents have incredible technical skill. Not to say others don't, but since downstate medical students get to do so much scutwork, as well as other procedures since the hospital is understaffed, they come out of it with very good clinical skills. As a premed, this sounded like BS to me, but I'm starting to see more and more how much of a blessing it can be...just look at the match list from Downstate this year, which is far better than expected for a middle-tier school.

Also Downstate students have the opportunity to do away rotations in major Boston area hospitals as well. That's not just for Tufts students.

 

[cpants]

I do realize that they are within a few miles of each other. That said, I also realize having actually lived in boston that my professors who made a very distinct point about the different demographics they serve had a point made after years within the school that was more valid.

I do agree that they are competing for best faculty, staff, and students. But I don't believe that they are competing for patients because as you pointed out there are enough to go around and as I pointed out the demographics in chinatown side vs. that in BMC vs. that near Harvard hospitals is different.

This is evident from everyone I've ever talked to in BMC who has done either medical or dental related training or teaching there.

Furthermore, the point about being in competition for faculty, staff, etc. is also true amongst schools in different cities in a given state

So just cuz SUNY downstate is isolated from AECOM in the bronx and Columbia and Cornell in Manhattan doesn't mean that all the NY schools aren't competing with each other for faculty, staff, and students as well.

So that point is kind of moot point.

But that said, based on the bigger city aspect of NYC and diversity of Brooklyn especially, I'd imagine Downstate has a good clinical experience. And that point of your original post I agree with completely.

I've actually lived in Boston as well. Therefore I know that these hospitals are literally 10 minute drives from each other, slightly longer on the T. If a patient in Boston wants to go to BU vs Tufts, there is very little barrier to do so. If a patient is coming in from the suburbs, these hospitals are basically equidistant. Traveling from Brooklyn to, say, Cornell, takes well over an hour on the subway. So, although they are in the same city, there is a significant barrier to going to Cornell over Downstate for a person living in Brooklyn. Nonetheless, these NY hospitals are ALSO competing with each other for patients, as are all hospitals within a given geographic area. This is a pretty basic concept. I don't see where the disconnect is.

I realize that these Boston hospitals have their niches, and thus serve distinct demographics. But don't think they wouldn't like to take patients from the other places demographics (at least the ones with insurance) away from each other. Competition for patients is real.

I'd like to point out something that you'll probably grow to realize later on in your medical career when you are applying for residency positions. While all medical schools and residencies in the US will provide you with adequate clinical experience (or they would lose accreditation), they won't all provide you with the same experience. Location of a school and proximity to other major medical centers are very important factors. If you want to go into a surgical subspecialty, for example, it makes a lot of sense to look for a program which has a virtual monopoly over a large patient population. That means you get all the cases, and you aren't competing with other programs for the more challenging and rare stuff. Think about it. This is simple supply and demand economics, and yes it applies to medical education. If there is more supply in an area, you get less experience. If there is less demand, you get less experience. Period.