Starting to regret going to an osteopathic school

[docbill]

I must finish my work now and go pick up dinner and prepare it before girl friend gets home... then back to working on article.. till then.. Adieu

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[medic170]

I must finish my work now and go pick up dinner and prepare it before girl friend gets home... then back to working on article.. till then.. Adieu

Have fun.

I was looking at the link, and seriously, based on that study, it does not look like Canadians have it any better health wise than Americans, yet you pay out your arse (compared to our taxes) for health care. Did I miss something? I still believe that America'a answer lies somewhere in the middle, and certainly far away from A canadian like socialist system.

 

[docbill]

trueeee.. so trueee.. the surprise came with the people satisfaction.

We pay more taxes not just for health care.. we have a larger land to be taken care of by 10% of US population. Roads and other services have to be payed by less people. So in US 10 people would pay for the area designated to one person in Canada... okay maybe a bit over estimated.. but nothing that Bush or Kerry did not do. hehehe

I come from a country that had NO health care.. when I was born I needed surgery and my parents payed through their nose for my surgeries... equal to the cost of an appartment at those times.

Others who did not have that luxury ... could not afford it... thus the kids turn out to be handicaped/disabled.. because a simple club feet operation could not be performed.

You never know when one will be on the loosing end. So I will fight for maintaining a social/universal medicaire system ... maybe along side a private system. Dual is not necessary bad.... but we don't want things to go too far to the private / numbers only side.

 

[medic170]

trueeee.. so trueee.. the surprise came with the people satisfaction.

We pay more taxes not just for health care.. we have a larger land to be taken care of by 10% of US population. Roads and other services have to be payed by less people. So in US 10 people would pay for the area designated to one person in Canada... okay maybe a bit over estimated.. but nothing that Bush or Kerry did not do. hehehe

I come from a country that had NO health care.. when I was born I needed surgery and my parents payed through their nose for my surgeries... equal to the cost of an appartment at those times.

Others who did not have that luxury ... could not afford it... thus the kids turn out to be handicaped/disabled.. because a simple club feet operation could not be performed.

You never know when one will be on the loosing end. So I will fight for maintaining a social/universal medicaire system ... maybe along side a private system. Dual is not necessary bad.... but we don't want things to go too far to the private / numbers only side.

Remember, America was founded on the premise that volunteerism could take care of social welfare that taxes does not, and I truly think that, as in your example, a kid with club feet here in the U.S. would either be able to find a physician to donate the time, or find a charity to pay for it. Kids are going without primary and preventive care (as are adults), but very few people are going without emergency care or care that can prevent a major disability or death.

there is nothing wrong with the Canadian system if that is what the people want, but Americans have a very different history and somewhat different values as far as government is concerned (i.e. we want that necessary evil as small and powerless as possible while balancing things with social welfare).

 

[Docgeorge]

Just for info there was a good article on OMM in The DO. Apperantly OMM is being offered as a Class I CME at Harvard.

 

[Ypo.]

Just for info there was a good article on OMM in The DO. Apperantly OMM is being offered as a Class I CME at Harvard.

Thats cool If its 'proven' enough for Harvard to be teaching it, then it ought to be good enough for the rest of the country.

 

[Shinken]

Further proof that the people at Harvard are among the smartest around. The only thing that sucks is that some smart cookie at Harvard will figure out why and how OMM works and Harvard will get all the credit for "inventing" OMM.

Can you imagine? People already don't know what a DO is. Next thing you know you'll tell people what a DO is and they'll say "Oh, yes! You guys specialize in that treatment invented at Harvard med school!"

 

[Goofyone]

Now that I am in my 3rd year of DO school, starting my fourth rotation, I think I have a decent perspective.

I believe the main issue comes down to OMT.

1. I think we all agree that OMT has valid uses, especially for musculoskeletal aches, pains, strains, etc.
2. I think 95% of us agree that cranial, cranio-sacral, and other variants are pretty much bunk.
3. I think 75-90% of us agree that OMT has, at best, a limited use in the management of medical (non-musculoskeletal) conditions.

Subsequently, I think that OMT belongs in four places:
1. with OMT specialists by referral or self-referral
2. with PT,OT, PM&R, and other physical rehab settings
3. with primary care physicians who like to use it for adjunctive tx of musculoskeletal conditions
4. as adjunctive treatment for medical conditions, where it has been discussed with the patient, the patient and the physician are both in agreement that they would like to try it, and the patient understands that it is experimental and unproven effort to try.

I don't believe that OMT should be used to treat EVERY patient. I wouldn't do a AFP level to r/o liver cancer on every patient I see, and I don't see why I should do an osteopathic structural exam to rule out somatic dysfunctions on EVERY patient I see .

I think the vast majority of DOs (and MDs) would agree with my beliefs. I back this up with the opinions I have heard from my peers in real life and on SDN, and also by the fact that this is essentially how OMT is practiced in the real world.

However, the fact is that the DO world has to justify its existence, especially with Harvard now teaching OMT, by propagating the idea that OMT cannot be separated from medical management of diseases. Hogwash. That's also why we have another liscensing exam with OMT "integrated" into the questions. More hogwash.

You can't really blame the old DOs. They have worked hard to make our profession the way it is today. You don't really expect them to admit that there is really no difference now between DOs and MDs (even though there isn't) do you???

Fortunately, the whole DO/MD issue is of far greater importance on SDN than it is in real life. I haven't performed OMT on a single patient yet. The only SNAFU I'm starting to see is with residency and liscensing issues, and I think the DO think can work to our advantage if we play our cards right.

Peace.

 

[Ypo.]

Further proof that the people at Harvard are among the smartest around. The only thing that sucks is that some smart cookie at Harvard will figure out why and how OMM works and Harvard will get all the credit for "inventing" OMM.

Can you imagine? People already don't know what a DO is. Next thing you know you'll tell people what a DO is and they'll say "Oh, yes! You guys specialize in that treatment invented at Harvard med school!"

Nah, I think the general public already believes that chiropractors invented OMM, don't worry

 

[medic170]

and the patient understands that it is experimental and unproven effort to try.

but many facets of it ARE proven and are NOT in the experimental stage. Again, check out the otitis media study in JAMA for one of many examples.

 

[jhug]

Fortunately, the whole DO/MD issue is of far greater importance on SDN than it is in real life.

 

[Old_Mil]

I will say, though, in parting, that humility is a wonderful quality that will endear you to patients and others.

...the force is strong in this one.

 

[pathdawg]

Hey Frustrated DO-

I will be honest and frank (even though I may get shunned for this..I really don't care)- I am sitting at a DO school because I did not get into any allopathic schools. That's the honest truth. Am I happy-YES! I am grateful and happy that I have the chance to become a doctor. Do I like OMM? Again to be honest-not really. I tend to dread Tues afternoons horribly! However, I recommend going to your OMM classes with an open mind and see what happens. I have learned some techniques that I think really do work, and I do see my self using someday. Then again there are some other things that I think are complete bull$hit and I don't think will ever use again.

To sum it up-don't be bitter that you didn't get into an allopathic school. Just be happy with what you are doing and stick it out with the OMM. Just remember that you don't have to use it ever again if you don't want to. But keep and open mind with it-you never know!!

Thank you for your honesty. Its kinda funny how everyone says they "chose" to go to a DO school and could have gotten into all sorts of allopathic schools. Interesting.
The harsh reality is that the vast majority of DO's did not get into MD schools. And that is OK. We shouldn't be so insecure and ashamed. Be comfortable in your own skin.
I am a DO. I am also a very good physician. I did not get into an MD school when I was 22 years old. So what.

 

[pathdawg]

First off, let me make it abundantly clear that I am NOT trying to start a flame war. I know how touchy these subjects can be. I really want a chance to vent and see if there are others out there who share my opinions.

I'm a first year DO student. While I was in undergrad, I was very, very enthusiastic about going to a DO school. I looked at it as a place where the alleged 'gunner-ism' and competitive atmosphere of the allopathic schools would be absent. My main reasons for wanting to be a DO was a more patient-centered thinking that the schools encouraged. My GPA and MCAT were competitive for MD and DO schools, so its not like I was forced into choosing a DO school because I couldn?t get in anywhere else. I genuinely wanted to be a DO.

But since the beginning of the year, I am getting more and more disgusted and dismayed at the attitudes of some of my classmates and of the faculty. Actually, not all of the faculty, just the OMM department.

I've never been a big fan of alternative medicine, so when my classmates started to talk about acupuncture and herbs and junk, I remained silent. So many of them were so excited about it. I'm skeptical, but I wanted to give OMM a chance. I began the year with an open mind, but at this point, I'm disgusted.

OMM is the sacred cow of the DO world. And the OMM faculty are the ones who enforce the religion. And they treat it like a religion - as if you have to 'believe' in order for it to work. I'm so sick and tired of being forced to 'drink the kool-aid' of a OMM. The fact that cranial osteopathy is even taught nowadays is enough to make me gag. Its embarrassing and frankly, it makes us look like fools as a profession.

The other thing that bugs me is the superiority complex that I see very often. As if in allopathic schools, they tell the student to focus on the symptoms and ignore the patient.

And the constant prattling about "treating the patient, not the symptoms" got very old, very quickly. I got really tired of explaining to friends and family what a DO is. I'm got very sick of pretentious people telling me that I'm an 'O'MS1, rather than a MS1. As I looked the AOA, I got even more discouraged. Here is an organization that seems bound and determined to keep us marginalized. Look at the nonsense they waste OUR money on: Postcards to TV shows, begging them to insert a DO character. Need I say more.

New DO schools open every year. Yet, the number of osteopathic residencies dwindles, and the ones that stay open are regarded as of questionable quality at best. I'm really starting to feel like I made a mistake in coming to a DO school. I can see people thriving here if they have a personality that leans towards alternative medicine, but I find it oppressive.

The DO world has some major issues that it needs to deal with. Here are my suggestions for change.

1)Eliminate the COMLEX. Why in the world should we have 2 distinct medical licensing exams? If the DO education is equivalent to an MD, then we should take the same test. Make OMM an add-on module just for us.

2)All medical schools, DO & MD should be accredited by the LCME, with oversight on the opening of new schools. It's not fair that we share the same profession as MDs, yet we can open schools left & right without any input from them. Its their future also.

3)Get rid of the osteopathic residencies. Either close them, or bring them up to par with allopathic programs, and open them to everyone.

4)Change the freakin name. There should be ONE set of damn initials for medical professionals, and it ought to be the one that 99% of the lay population recognizes. This is solely a pride issue of the old school DOs who run the AOA.

5)RESEARCH - Osteopathic medicine had leeched off of allopathic medicine since we accepted the use of drugs to treat illness. It's about time we started to contribute something back to the development of medicine.

6)OMM should either by backed up by peer-reviewed research or dropped. Let's shine some light on this - if it works, and can be proven, great. But why am I learning to manipulate the skull bones in one class, but in anatomy class, I'm told they are permanently fused?

I know the odds of any of these reforms happening is almost zero. And for me, I'm stuck and I'll have to make the best of my schooling. I can't transfer out or begin again, for personal reasons. But I sure wish someone had posted something like this when I was applying. I may have thought twice.

You are 100% right. I felt the exact same way when I was in school. My advise is just grin and bear it. You can "mainstream" later on during your residency and career. The whole "DO identity" nonsense really only comes into play during your first two years of med school (and on SDN forums).

 

[Ypo.]

Thank you for your honesty. Its kinda funny how everyone says they "chose" to go to a DO school and could have gotten into all sorts of allopathic schools. Interesting.
The harsh reality is that the vast majority of DO's did not get into MD schools. And that is OK. We shouldn't be so insecure and ashamed. Be comfortable in your own skin.
I am a DO. I am also a very good physician. I did not get into an MD school when I was 22 years old. So what.

The reality is that the students who enroll in osteopathic schools after having been unsuccesful at entering MD schools are in the minority (albeit it is a significant minority). Quite different from vast majority. Most of the students at DO schools are knowledgeable about the osteopathic profession. Many of them have had DOs as their physicians.

You are correct that you shouldn't be insecure or ashamed that DO schools were your second choice. I'm sorry for those who were really hoping for an MD admission and are turned off during their first two years of osteopathic medical school.

 

[pathdawg]

The reality is that the students who enroll in osteopathic schools after having been unsuccesful at entering MD schools are in the minority (albeit it is a significant minority). Quite different from vast majority. Most of the students at DO schools are knowledgeable about the osteopathic profession. Many of them have had DOs as their physicians.

You are correct that you shouldn't be insecure or ashamed that DO schools were your second choice. I'm sorry for those who were really hoping for an MD admission and are turned off during their first two years of osteopathic medical school.

I do not agree. My point is that many of the DO's that claim they got into allopathic schools are being less than honest.
Are there those who truly love osteopathy and apply only to DO schools despite stellar academic records? Of course. I just do not believe they represent the majority.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

 

[PublicEnemy]

There is a lot of subtelty in this debate.

I think there's actually a difference between words like backup, second choice, preference, suitable alternative. There are differences, sometimes big, but mostly Semantics. This is what we're talking about.

I think its a perfectly fair assesment to say that many if not most DO students applied to or at least considered allopathic schools. Many people who end up at DO schools perhaps went there because they did not get into an MD school, but that does not mean they don't want to be at a DO school. Again, semantics. Likewise, not all people that choose to apply to both MD and DO schools will choose any MD school over any DO school. I think there's a significant number of applicants myself included that make their preferences based on many many factors aside from just MD or DO. Most people don't apply to all 119 allo schools and all 22 or so DO schools. We pick and choose combinations of which we would like to go to and many times they overlap.

Basically, I think it is impossible to make any kind of generalization whatsoever. But as a general commentary, I feel like pathdawg you're somewhat annoyed by the people who maybe come to really embrace DO only when they realize that is their only option, and they became all gung-ho pro-DO? thats what you're talking about right?

honestly, i see nothing wrong with this. i don't even think these people are really disingenuous. im not talking about people flat out lying about their past, but in general, there's nothing wrong with taking pride in what you've achieved, where you are, what you're studying. its probably not just a pseudo, fake portrayal of pride, it might actually be a realization and acceptance. although, i will admit, there are some DO students that are insecure about their situation and have to manifest attitude.

 

[medic170]

There is a lot of subtelty in this debate.

I think there's actually a difference between words like backup, second choice, preference, suitable alternative. There are differences, sometimes big, but mostly Semantics. This is what we're talking about.

I think its a perfectly fair assesment to say that many if not most DO students applied to or at least considered allopathic schools. Many people who end up at DO schools perhaps went there because they did not get into an MD school, but that does not mean they don't want to be at a DO school. Again, semantics. Likewise, not all people that choose to apply to both MD and DO schools will choose any MD school over any DO school. I think there's a significant number of applicants myself included that make their preferences based on many many factors aside from just MD or DO. Most people don't apply to all 119 allo schools and all 22 or so DO schools. We pick and choose combinations of which we would like to go to and many times they overlap.

Basically, I think it is impossible to make any kind of generalization whatsoever. But as a general commentary, I feel like pathdawg you're somewhat annoyed by the people who maybe come to really embrace DO only when they realize that is their only option, and they became all gung-ho pro-DO? thats what you're talking about right?

honestly, i see nothing wrong with this. i don't even think these people are really disingenuous. im not talking about people flat out lying about their past, but in general, there's nothing wrong with taking pride in what you've achieved, where you are, what you're studying. its probably not just a pseudo, fake portrayal of pride, it might actually be a realization and acceptance. although, i will admit, there are some DO students that are insecure about their situation and have to manifest attitude.

you are right. The thing is, Pathdawg is saying that many DO students LIE, saying they also got into allopathic schools, because they are insecure about going to a DO school. That is just rediculous. What is that even based on, can you prove it?

 

[Ypo.]

I do not agree. My point is that many of the DO's that claim they got into allopathic schools are being less than honest.
Are there those who truly love osteopathy and apply only to DO schools despite stellar academic records? Of course. I just do not believe they represent the majority.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Perhaps not. However, I obtained my information from Norman Gevitz' book on DOs, and he is probably more researched on the subject than either of us. I am sure that the students who are disastisfied with their DO school and who originally wanted to go to an MD schools are in the minority.

If you want to believe that most of your classmates are liars, feel free. I prefer to believe in a less cynical view of osteopathic medical students.

 

[pathdawg]

Perhaps not. However, I obtained my information from Norman Gevitz' book on DOs, and he is probably more researched on the subject than either of us. I am sure that the students who are disastisfied with their DO school and who originally wanted to go to an MD schools are in the minority.

If you want to believe that most of your classmates are liars, feel free. I prefer to believe in a less cynical view of osteopathic medical students.

I do not believe that most of my classmates are liars. I simply believe (and this is only an opinion, folks) that many DO's who claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing are a tad defensive and insecure.

 

[medic170]

I do not believe that most of my classmates are liars. I simply believe (and this is only an opinion, folks) that many DO's who claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing are a tad defensive and insecure.

Well, you SAID you believe that "many of the DO's that claim they got into allopathic schools are being less than honest". I'd say you are calling them insecure liars.

 

[pathdawg]

Well, you SAID you believe that "many of the DO's that claim they got into allopathic schools are being less than honest". I'd say you are calling them insecure liars.

Right. I'll stand by that.

 

[medic170]

Right. I'll stand by that.

What makes you believe that, did you research the backgrounds of people who said it and find out they were liars, or do you just project your own insecurities on to other people?

 

[cooldreams]

What makes you believe that, did you research the backgrounds of people who said it and find out they were liars, or do you just project your own insecurities on to other people?

"right, ill stand by that" heheh

 

[pathdawg]

What makes you believe that, did you research the backgrounds of people who said it and find out they were liars, or do you just project your own insecurities on to other people?

Um, no. It is just an opinion. It was not meant to be an ad hominem attack (unlike your quote above).

 

[medic170]

Um, no. It is just an opinion. It was not meant to be an ad hominem attack (unlike your quote above).

Obviously it is an uniformed and foolish opinion since you just agreed that you have no factual basis to back it up. My statement was no different than yours, it was my opinion, only I had some facts

 

[cooldreams]

Um, no. It is just an opinion. It was not meant to be an ad hominem attack (unlike your quote above).

but in your case, it is a libel/slanderous statement. i could say that MD students have to cut their finger and sign in blood that they do not believe in God in part of their initiation rite. from some of the religious conversations ive had with MD students, this seems plausable. however i have no factual basis to back that up.

in both cases (yours and mine), these are statements that hurt the social character of the attacked party, and we each would be happy if the other would discontinue in such unfounded statements.

cant we all just get along?

let me produce my story in direct conflict with your statement. my grandfather was a DO, went to uhs (kcumb). i want to go there, always have wanted to go there. i applied to it, kcom, and dmu. i was accepted to uhs and canceled my applications everywhere else. you see, in my case, no i never got accepted to an MD school, but i didnt want to either, and never even tried.

 

[pathdawg]

but in your case, it is a libel/slanderous statement.

Libel refers to a knowingly false statement against an individual. My statement was neither knowingly false nor targeted against an individual.

 

[medic170]

Libel refers to a knowingly false statement against an individual. My statement was neither knowingly false nor targeted against an individual.

He's got a point cooldreams. He never made a "knowingly false statement against an individual". He made a foolish and unfounded statement against a group of individuals. That is not illegal, just ignorant, and there is no law against being ignorant.

 

[pathdawg]

but in your case, it is a libel/slanderous statement. i could say that MD students have to cut their finger and sign in blood that they do not believe in God in part of their initiation rite. from some of the religious conversations ive had with MD students, this seems plausable. however i have no factual basis to back that up.

in both cases (yours and mine), these are statements that hurt the social character of the attacked party, and we each would be happy if the other would discontinue in such unfounded statements.

cant we all just get along?

let me produce my story in direct conflict with your statement. my grandfather was a DO, went to uhs (kcumb). i want to go there, always have wanted to go there. i applied to it, kcom, and dmu. i was accepted to uhs and canceled my applications everywhere else. you see, in my case, no i never got accepted to an MD school, but i didnt want to either, and never even tried.

How is your story "in direct conflict"? Your gradfather was a DO and you followed in his footsteps. That is perfectly fine. If you never even applied to allopathic schoos, then my statement obviously would not refer to someone with your story.
I don't think you really understand what I am saying. It was not meant to be a personal attack nor was it meant to make first year DO students unbelievably defensive. I am saying that I have encountered DO students and graduates claim, "hey, I could have gone to Harvard Med if I really wanted to, but I went to a DO school because of blah blah blah reason" and I don't believe most of them. Thats all.
I am also not saying that DO students are somehow inferior. I have taught at both MD and DO schools and I have found no appreciable difference in the quality of student.

 

[Elysium]

Um, I'm not sure what planet you all are living on, but I think almost all my classmates (and everyone I've ever spoken to that's at a DO school) applied to MD schools as well. A few choose DO school over MD school, but those people honestly are probably in the minority. If people had the chance to get into their state MD school (thereby saving thousands of dollard in tuition) do you not think they would have gone? If they got into, say, a top 20 med school do you think they would not have gone? It would be interesting to see the stats of people that chose DO schools over MD schools (and not this tired anecdotal evidence, some actual data). I suspect it's much less that you think. Hell, I'm happy to be in med school, I didn't care whether it was MD or DO. I will tell you though, that I would much rather be spending $7500 a year for tuition and not the have extra stress of OMM exams than spending $32,000 a year and studying 20+ hours for OMM practical exams. I think this is most people's experience. Not to be libelous or anything.

 

[pathdawg]

Um, I'm not sure what planet you all are living on, but I think almost all my classmates (and everyone I've ever spoken to that's at a DO school) applied to MD schools as well. A few choose DO school over MD school, but those people honestly are probably in the minority. If people had the chance to get into their state MD school (thereby saving thousands of dollard in tuition) do you not think they would have gone? If they got into, say, a top 20 med school do you think they would not have gone? It would be interesting to see the stats of people that chose DO schools over MD schools (and not this tired anecdotal evidence, some actual data). I suspect it's much less that you think. Hell, I'm happy to be in med school, I didn't care whether it was MD or DO. I will tell you though, that I would much rather be spending $7500 a year for tuition and not the have extra stress of OMM exams than spending $32,000 a year and studying 20+ hours for OMM practical exams. I think this is most people's experience. Not to be libelous or anything.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[pathdawg]

Um, I'm not sure what planet you all are living on, but I think almost all my classmates (and everyone I've ever spoken to that's at a DO school) applied to MD schools as well. A few choose DO school over MD school, but those people honestly are probably in the minority. If people had the chance to get into their state MD school (thereby saving thousands of dollard in tuition) do you not think they would have gone? If they got into, say, a top 20 med school do you think they would not have gone? It would be interesting to see the stats of people that chose DO schools over MD schools (and not this tired anecdotal evidence, some actual data). I suspect it's much less that you think. Hell, I'm happy to be in med school, I didn't care whether it was MD or DO. I will tell you though, that I would much rather be spending $7500 a year for tuition and not the have extra stress of OMM exams than spending $32,000 a year and studying 20+ hours for OMM practical exams. I think this is most people's experience. Not to be libelous or anything.

Apparently, some out there think your just being ignorant, right medic170?
Please.

 

[medic170]

Apparently, some out there think your just being ignorant, right medic170?
Please.

No, I don't think what he said was ignorant because he said something different from what you said. He talked about people choosing between MD/DO, and he gave some good reasons and situations where people may choose MD over DO. He also said he did not know any stats and would like to see something besides anecdotal evidence.

You, on the other hand, simply accused people who say that they chose DO over MD of being insecure liars. BIG difference.

BTW, Elysium, I for one, did choose DO over MD, but I live in Michigan, so I had the option of a state DO school, which most people do not have. Also, I am looking forward to the extra OMM training, although I am not in school yet, so I have no idea how many students are enthusiastic about it. I'd like to see some stats too. Also, are there really schools that only charge $7500 a year for tuition??? I paid that for undergrad at MSU.

 

[Ypo.]

My point is that many of the DO's that claim they got into allopathic schools are being less than honest.

I do not believe that most of my classmates are liars. I simply believe (and this is only an opinion, folks) that many DO's who claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing are a tad defensive and insecure.

Right. I'll stand by that.

Okay... whatever you say.

 

[bones]

wow a little bit of a flame war here eh?

the critics here have a good point. i think it is very true that there are a sizeable number of DO students that wish they were in allopathic school. It is unfortunate that some of these students have no interest in osteopathy at all- and yet chose DO as a backdoor into medicine. So long as there are students like this admitted into our schools, there will be insecure DO's out there- and DO's will be regarded by some as second rate MD's.

get over it.

There ARE quite a few students that CHOOSE osteopathy. Or are excited about it even if they liked a few MD schools better than their DO options. A good gauge is how many students choose to take the optional cranial class here at KCOM- which has been 40-50% of the class over the last few years. ~70 to 75 of 160 students. These are the people willing to lay down 20 hours out of their free time into learning cranial osteopathy. I'm sure that there are some who didn't take this class who like and use OMM as well, however.

Now that I am in my 3rd year of DO school, starting my fourth rotation, I think I have a decent perspective.

I believe the main issue comes down to OMT.

1. I think we all agree that OMT has valid uses, especially for musculoskeletal aches, pains, strains, etc.
2. I think 95% of us agree that cranial, cranio-sacral, and other variants are pretty much bunk.
3. I think 75-90% of us agree that OMT has, at best, a limited use in the management of medical (non-musculoskeletal) conditions.

1) true
2) my numbers listed above would indicate otherwise. Perhaps a vocal minority belive cranial is bunk, (of course, most of these people have never used it for themselves or shadowed docs who use it, so their only evidence is heresay). Another 20-40% of the student body don't feel like spending the extra time in lab. the rest probably don't think its bunk, since they are spending time to learn it.
3) This is probably true. But, just because 75-90% of people believe something- does this make it fact? hardly. all conditions have a musculoskeletal component, and often individuals have musculoskeletal factors that predispose them to the diseases they carry. It certainly isn't the primary mode of treatment for most diseases, of course- but may be an effective adjunct for most, and a critical adjuct for some very serious ones.

Subsequently, I think that OMT belongs in four places:
1. with OMT specialists by referral or self-referral
2. with PT,OT, PM&R, and other physical rehab settings
3. with primary care physicians who like to use it for adjunctive tx of musculoskeletal conditions
4. as adjunctive treatment for medical conditions, where it has been discussed with the patient, the patient and the physician are both in agreement that they would like to try it, and the patient understands that it is experimental and unproven effort to try.

OMT specialists, OB, and PM&R and anesthesiologists in pain management are perhaps the most obvious specialties where the vast majority of your patients require OMT as a critical mode of treatment to get the best outcomes possible.

However, it is very effective for many patients as an adjunct in FP, Peds, and neurology (if you are the only neurologist in town that can cure migraines for good... you are in high demand indeed).

Surgeons may want to be proficient if they want better outcomes.
Really, all specialties other than radiology, anesthesiology (of the surgical assist type) and pathology could benefit at least some of their patients in a significant way.

I haven't performed OMT on a single patient yet.

If you only skim the surface and learn to crack backs and do a little muscle energy- your skills wont help most people with a serious conditions or chronic symptoms. If you don't use it, you lose it (or maybe you never had it)- so if you haven't used it on a patient yet, you probably have lost most of what you spent all those hours learning in lab. It is unfortunate for your patients, and it is unfortunate for you- since you one day could bill for the service on top of whatever fees you charge for your specialty (unless you are in one of the 3 specialties I mentioned above where it would be pointless).

It is your choice though.

I appreciate your candor, and i always like hearing from people with more clinical background. Its hard to field criticism from those who have never had their own patients to manage. While it is unfortunate what you missed, you may still be a great physician regardless, and I wish you the best of luck.

Michael

 

[medic170]

the critics here have a good point. i think it is very true that there are a sizeable number of DO students that wish they were in allopathic school. It is unfortunate that some of these students have no interest in osteopathy at all- and yet chose DO as a backdoor into medicine. So long as there are students like this admitted into our schools, there will be insecure DO's out there- and DO's will be regarded by some as second rate MD's.

get over it.

bones, I agree with you here, but do you really agree with pathdawg that many, or even the majority, of DO's and osteopathic students LIE and say they also got into MD schools, but chose DO anyway because they are insecure???

 

[pappydo]

My friends and I went through episodes of "what did we get ourselves into" at our school. I would think most students ponder that at some time. But don't be discouraged, young fella. Now, in our fourth years, we're comfortable with our "D.O.ness" and understand if we want to get away from it, we can apply to allopathic residencies.

As far as evidenced based medicine: you do realize there are many D.O.s actively engaged in research? Further, we've all benefited from 'leaching.' Most of us aren't PhD's, and won't discover anything important anyway. Those who publish during medical school typically do to enhance their CV, not medical science.

As far as the COMLEX: it is very similar in scope to the USMLE. When you study for one, you study for the other (except the famous blue OMM book, of course). I took both Steps I and II (gotta keep those doors open). The USMLE has the advantage of being computer based. I agree we should get rid of the COMLEX in general, but keep our own 'PE' portion (equivalent to USMLE Step II-CS). This way we complete the 'OMM' portion to satisfy the purists, but are more able to compare our knowledge to those of our MD counterparts. I feel OMM has always been more practical than know;edge-based and testing should be kept that way.

Anyway, hang in there. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in the end.

 

[Ypo.]

wow a little bit of a flame war here eh?

the critics here have a good point. i think it is very true that there are a sizeable number of DO students that wish they were in allopathic school.

I don't think anyone is denying that. But what we were wondering is "can it really be the majority?" If so, then that is kind of depressing. Of course there is a significant minority that really wished they were in MD school. I am not an optimist, or a pessimist, (I like to consider myself a realist-the glass is both half empty and half full). I just can't imagine that the majority of students in DO school are not enthusiastic and happy about their choice, and about becoming an osteopathic physician.

 

[bones]

bones, I agree with you here, but do you really agree with pathdawg that many, or even the majority, of DO's and osteopathic students LIE and say they also got into MD schools, but chose DO anyway because they are insecure???

People want to protect their egos. it is a natural reaction. If they were rejected as an MD but went DO just to be a doctor- with no interest in osteopathy... well, they may feel the need to defend their ego for the rest of their life. There really isn't much discrimination from outside, certainly not in the hospital setting, but they will see it everywhere they go even when it isn't there- including every person who asks them what a DO is. What do they say to that?

I don't think most lie, and the few that do- i think do it unintentionally. They may be lying a little to themselves.

For those of you who chose this road intentionally though, you have nothing to worry about. When someone asks you what a DO is, you don't feel the slightest confusion or doubt. You are in your first choice profession, and it is a great one.

 

[Ypo.]

People want to protect their egos. it is a natural reaction. If they were rejected as an MD but went DO just to be a doctor- with no interest in osteopathy... well, they may feel the need to defend their ego for the rest of their life. There really isn't much discrimination from outside, certainly not in the hospital setting, but they will see it everywhere they go even when it isn't there- including every person who asks them what a DO is. What do they say to that?

I don't think most lie, and the few that do- i think do it unintentionally. They may be lying a little to themselves.

For those of you who chose this road intentionally though, you have nothing to worry about. When someone asks you what a DO is, you don't feel the slightest confusion or doubt. You are in your first choice profession, and it is a great one.

Very poignant.

 

[JohnDO]

I don't think anyone is denying that. But what we were wondering is "can it really be the majority?" If so, then that is kind of depressing. Of course there is a significant minority that really wished they were in MD school. I am not an optimist, or a pessimist, (I like to consider myself a realist-the glass is both half empty and half full). I just can't imagine that the majority of students in DO school are not enthusiastic and happy about their choice, and about becoming an osteopathic physician.

It seems like most of the people I met during interviews were genuinly enthusiastic about osteopathic medicine. One thing I really appreciated about KCOM is the student's enthusiasm for osteopathic medicine and their appreciation of their history. Granted, I only had the opportunity to meet a small minority of the students, but it still made a lasting impression. I'm sure other schools have this attitude as well, but I only interviewed at the two schools that I was interested in. Of course there are those who are only DO schools because they couldn't get into MD schools. I don't believe that they constitute the majority of people. I've talked to so many people who are extremely happy with their choice. However, I admit that I obviously have less exposure to osteopathic medical students than the current students here.

 

[pathdawg]

bones, I agree with you here, but do you really agree with pathdawg that many, or even the majority, of DO's and osteopathic students LIE and say they also got into MD schools, but chose DO anyway because they are insecure???

My goodness. You are completely missing the point. I am not saying that a majority of DO's lie and say that they got into MD schools. I don't believe that. I am saying that of the subset that claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing, many (or most) of them are not being honest. Get it? Most people who attend DO schools either did not apply to an MD school or did not get accepted to an allopathic school. I am sure that there are those who did choose a DO school over an MD one. I simply don't think they represent the majority.
Furthermore, I did not say they "chose DO anyway because they are insecure". This doesn't even make sense. I just believe that those who claim that they got into {insert impressive-ssounding allopathic school here} are being insecure and are not completely comforable in their own osteopathic skin. Jeez.

 

[medic170]

I did not say they "chose DO anyway because they are insecure". This doesn't even make sense. I.

Sorry, I left out a comma, it should have read "do you really agree with pathdawg that many, or even the majority, of DO's and osteopathic students LIE and say they also got into MD schools, but chose DO anyway[,] because they are insecure???

As in do you believe they lie because they are insecure? that should make better sense trhan by broken sentence.

My goodness. You are completely missing the point. I am not saying that a majority of DO's lie and say that they got into MD schools. I don't believe that. I am saying that of the subset that claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing, many (or most) of them are not being honest. Get it? Most people who attend DO schools either did not apply to an MD school or did not get accepted to an allopathic school. I am sure that there are those who did choose a DO school over an MD one. I simply don't think they represent the majority.
Furthermore, I did not say they "chose DO anyway because they are insecure". This doesn't even make sense. I just believe that those who claim that they got into {insert impressive-ssounding allopathic school here} are being insecure and are not completely comforable in their own osteopathic skin. Jeez.

You said they lie because they are insecure , and yes I get it, you truly think that, of those people who say "I got into allopathic institutions, but I chose DO anyway", most of them are liars. That is what you said and that is whatr I thought was ignorant, to just assume people are liars without anything to back it up other than an unsubstantiated opinion. Anyway, I can see you are not going to change your mind, but I do hope you will give your fellow med students who chose DO over MD and said so the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming they are insecure liars.

 

[bones]

I'm a first year DO student. While I was in undergrad, I was very, very enthusiastic about going to a DO school. I looked at it as a place where the alleged 'gunner-ism' and competitive atmosphere of the allopathic schools would be absent. My main reasons for wanting to be a DO was a more patient-centered thinking that the schools encouraged. My GPA and MCAT were competitive for MD and DO schools, so its not like I was forced into choosing a DO school because I couldn?t get in anywhere else. I genuinely wanted to be a DO.

But since the beginning of the year, I am getting more and more disgusted and dismayed at the attitudes of some of my classmates and of the faculty. Actually, not all of the faculty, just the OMM department.

I've never been a big fan of alternative medicine, so when my classmates started to talk about acupuncture and herbs and junk, I remained silent. So many of them were so excited about it. I'm skeptical, but I wanted to give OMM a chance. I began the year with an open mind, but at this point, I'm disgusted.

OMM is the sacred cow of the DO world. And the OMM faculty are the ones who enforce the religion. And they treat it like a religion - as if you have to 'believe' in order for it to work.

I appreciate your frustration- you clearly aren't alone. I'm also sorry your experience turned out as it did. It seems that the students i have taken under my wing develop a great appreciation of what osteopathy can do. Most of the harshest critics come around 180 degrees once their own problems permanently resolve under these tools.

Unfortunately, there isn't always enough faculty on hand for everyone to be instructed like this from early in their first year. One of our professions greatest shortcomings at the moment is its poor student-faculty ratio in labs, too little integration, and too few OMM hours. yea you heard me right... I promise it isn't boring though when you allot enough time to tightly integrate it with anatomy, physiology and pathology.


I do have a few solutions. They are imperfect- (of course leadership moves would be preferrable)- but they WILL allow you to get a great osteopathic education, even if you are frustrated with what goes on at your particular school.

1) Grab your OMM fellows and skillful second years who have success with patients and pick their brains. You may want to set up small weekly help sessions with 1 fellow for 2-4 students. This alone may make all the difference in your career as a DO.

2) Seek out OMM specialists of all types and make shadowing rather than your classtime the basis of what you know. You will hate some of them, you will love others. If you happen to not like your OMM faculty, this doesn't mean ALL OMM docs are just like them, you know...

Think of classtime just as a chance to practice what you already know from development out of class. There is nothing like watching the clinical reasoning of a seasoned OMM specialist, and their success with patients can be truly amazing. Your skills advance in leaps and bounds when you shoot for this level of proficiency, instead of plodding along in class poking and cracking one body part at a time.

3) Dont forget the rest of medicine. There are "purists" out there that forget we are physicians. If you don't understand pathology, how can you hope to treat it or even cure it? You really should maintain a critical mind- be skeptical. DON'T take what your teachers say as gospel. Much of it may be wrong. There are no sacred cows in science. Often what they say works really does- but their whys can be completely off. Be aware that one can be blinded to the truth by too little OR too much skepticism. If you hear an ambitious claim that flies in the face of everything that sounds reasonable- investigate rather than dismissing it. Let clinical outcomes- as you see them before your eyes- be your guide. Before you say cranial is bunk, watch it cut out terrible migraines within seconds right before your eyes on a regular basis. Sometimes they go away for good. Also watch how nauseous people can get in class when cranial is scewed up by noobs. If you aren't doing anything with cranial- what causes this? (I am not sure if i believe the explanations given in class myself, but outcomes are outcomes) even if only a few of your patients may benefit, isn't it worth investigating?

Read the research too, where it is available... though unfortunately skillful OMM research in reputed journals is still hard to find. If you want to wait till the studies come in before you learn OMM though- I suggest you reconsider going to DO school. Lab is required at most schools, and all those hours in lab will be wasted on you. Besides, if you dont learn OMM- your degree doesnt really mean much- does it?

be well,
michael

 

[bones]

I am not saying that a majority of DO's lie and say that they got into MD schools. I don't believe that. I am saying that of the subset that claim that they could have gone to any allopathic school of their choosing, many (or most) of them are not being honest. Get it? Most people who attend DO schools either did not apply to an MD school or did not get accepted to an allopathic school. I am sure that there are those who did choose a DO school over an MD one. I simply don't think they represent the majority.

Point taken, and I think your perception is largely right. This isn't to say that those who would have preferred MD schools wont make great osteopaths once they get the right training. some who had little knowledge of what OMM was and ended up in a DO school discover they love it (at least those who end up seeking extra training outside of class).

This thread is about understanding the state of things in DO schools and hopefully doing something about the problems we see. Every school has problems, MD and DO alike. It is what we do about the problems and challenges we see that defines who we are. Are you a whiner or a leader?


Please keep these things in mind before taking out your frustrations on others here on SDN.

Michael

 

[my alias]

my advice for anyone frustrated with the OMM department at their school...

go shadow in the OMM department

the difference between sitting through OMM lab and actually watching it done is the difference between trying to learn the alphabet and reading a novel.

and remember, in most cases the departments are run by clinicians, not phds or profesors. we have to xpect some level of disorganization.

 

[Runtita]

If you are at a DO school because you didn't get into an MD school, shut up.

I don't want to hear about it, not in class, not in the halls, not after the OTM practical.

I can exercise my discretion and choose not to READ a post on SDN, but it's harder not to HEAR vocal bitching.

 

[novacek88]

Frustrated DO

You are not alone. I would say 2/3 of your class feels the same way you do. The truth is many DO's couldn't get into an MD schools and would have done so had they gotten in. I would say maybe a 1/3 at best chose to go DO. There is no way to confim this idea however, the entrance stastics particularly the average MCAT scores of most DO schools are significantly lower than allopathic schools. Again, this confirms nothing but one could ask if it is merely a coincidence that so many DO's happen to have much lower MCAT scores. For example, the U of A's average GPA and MCAT was a 3.6 and a 28 MCAT when I applied. However, AZCOM average GPA was a 3.5 and a 24 MCAT. I wouldn't call the discrepancy in MCAT scores as being insignificant. Regardless, entrance stats do not make a physician but if you are discussing whether students chose to go DO, I find these stats to be insightful.

Yes, our residency system is awful which is why you see nearly 70% of a DO class elect to do an allopathic residency. And this is not because there are limited osteopathic residency spots. There are hundreds of unfilled osteopathic primary care residency positions every year. In fact, some derm programs at osteopathic hospitals require their students first complete a family practice residency prior to entering their derm residency because they can't fill those family practice spots otherwise. Rarely will you see a DO choose to an osteopathic residency in primary care fields. The only time a student chooses a DO residency is if he or she wants to specialize and thus increase their odds of matching into a competitive field. The COMLEX is silly as well. We should have a separate OMM exam but we should all take the USMLE. It really makes no sense why we have the COMLEX. And I couldn't agree more with your. Finally, it is embarrassing how we open new schools every year yet we do practically nothing to improve the quality of our residency programs and open new programs in specialized fields. At AZCOM, it is apparent that money is the bottom line because they keep raising our tuition to open a podiatry schools instead of doing more to open rotation opporunities locally. AZCOM was too cheap to pay for local rotation priviledges which is why the U of A blacklisted them from rotation priviledges.

I do agree with others in that you really have no right to complain. I would be suprised if you didn't know about these issues beforehand? I did my research and knew the drawbacks to atttending a DO school but I had no choice. It was either DO or the Carribean and I chose DO which I do not regret. Yes, at times I get frustrated by many aspects of the osteopathic education process. At the same time, I have to come to respect and understand many aspect of OMM that I previously thought of as witch craft. You will be suprised at how amazing OMM can be when you learn more about it. Overall, you will have the opportunity to become a physician, which is a privilege not a right. I understand your frustration but realize you chose to go DO. You could have reapplied or attended a school in the Carribbean. So show some guts, tough it out and accept your fate. You chose this process. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative.

There are many positive aspects to attending a DO school as well. I love my classmates. With DO students, you don't get that same gunner cutthroat mentality that you get an MD school. The upper classmen at my school were very supportive of us when we were MS1 and MS2's. I really feel like I can walk into many local DO's offices and they will be supportive of you as if you were in the same fraternity in college. Most of DO students seem to be older or embarking on a second career. Thus, I have noticed many DO students are very laid back and much more mature than many allopathic students. In addition, professors at DO schools seem to be more personal. At your traditional MD school. your professors are researchers or very esteemed people who are unapproachable. Ask MD students how often they can walk into their professors office and ask questions. Finally, I have worked with osteopathic attendings and they don't carry the same hazing/pimp mentality that many allopathic attendings have. I like that approach much more.

To those who have been offended by my post, I can understand why you would be upset with my comments. You may have the last word as i only wanted to lend my opinion. I will not engage in a flame war. Have the last word and once again, I apologize if I have offended anyone.

 

[chitown82]

I've read a few posts in this thread (and in other threads) suggesting that a DO = MD + OMT. I wanted to know how people feel regarding this generalization of osteopathic medicine. Do DOs learn everything that MD students learn (plus OMM). If this is the case, why is there a stigma associated with DOs (it would be silly not to acknowledge that one exists)?