Any non-traditional students regretting going to medical school

[BorntobeDO?]

I'm only an OMS1 but I'm already feeling very isolated in school from my friends/family and can see how long the road is ahead. I was a nurse for a few years prior to medical school so I'm not new to healthcare. I'm only 27, I feel like I shouldn't even be complaining as I have a handful of classmates older than me, although a majority of the class seems to be 20-24. I used to travel a lot, most of my friends are getting married, buying homes, traveling or having children and here I am stuck in a weird transitional time of my life until at least 34 (post residency).

I'm not sure where these feelings are coming from as med school is what I dreamed of and I thought I understood the sacrifice beforehand, but now that I'm here I just wish I was still making money to put towards my retirement and being able to buy a house/have kids. I apologize as this post might seem to come across as whiny/ungrateful. I suppose I just wanted my cake and to eat it, too. Any other non-trads feeling this way for one reason or another?

On the other side of med school but still not an attending. Also did nursing before. I had the same kind of thoughts you do after the first semester of med school. I took a leave just to think about it and I tried to work as a nurse again. I got some gigs but ultimately everything that got me to medicine the first time got me back again. At least for me, the what if was too much.

That said the downside of medicine is real. I really am not a fan of the process, especially the ‘matching’ part. Quite frankly you can get screwed into a specialty you didn’t want easily, or end up in your backup. That was never an issue with nursing, if I grinded enough I would go where I wanted. That’s just not true in medicine. There are upper limits to what you can do, and some people will just be better, and/or have a school/resources that prepares them better. I think that’s the thing you have to come to grips with. If you finish you are likely to match, but it may not be what you want or where you want. Your pretty powerless the whole time.

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[deleted1079620]

I'm a non-trad with kids, finishing OMS-1 in 13 days, in my 40s. I have questioned my motivation to finish numerous times this year, but the questions are getting fewer and farther between the further I go. I don't miss many family events, because COVID shut down most of my children's school & social events for the past year. I am going to miss my oldest daughter's college graduation next week because her school is too far away for me to get to, they've restricted tickets to a very small number, and I have an exam that day. She's coming for a visit in a couple of weeks though and I'm live streaming her ceremony, so it will work out, and she understands. I have two rising high school seniors next year, and I've already sat down and planned out what I would really like to attend during their senior year and how I will make that work with my 2nd year coursework, and what I'm ok with missing. I don't need to be at every football game, but I do need to try to make senior night and homecoming, for example.

I don't feel like medical school puts your life on hold, at least not for me, but I came into it with a large family, and they have pretty much carried on as normal, so it's not like I can put them brakes on what they've got going on in their lives. We've sold a house and are currently in an apartment with no plans to purchase another house for at least a few years, but I've owned two houses in my life so I know both the pros & cons there. I see students in their 20s getting married, having kids, purchasing homes (yes, while in medical school!), so while it will definitely be more difficult during medical school, it can be done.

What I do regret is allowing the stress of 1st year to rob me of really enjoying my 1st year of medical school. For the first time in my life, I'm not concerned about not having a job, looking for a job, etc. I'm actually working every day towards a career with long-term job security in a field that I love. My personality tends to focus on the bad things in the moment, and reflect later on the good times, then regret that I didn't spend more time in the moment enjoying myself. I'm trying to change that during 2nd year and beyond, so I don't look back later and wish I had enjoyed it more.

 

[calivianya]

What I do regret is allowing the stress of 1st year to rob me of really enjoying my 1st year of medical school. For the first time in my life, I'm not concerned about not having a job, looking for a job, etc. I'm actually working every day towards a career with long-term job security in a field that I love. My personality tends to focus on the bad things in the moment, and reflect later on the good times, then regret that I didn't spend more time in the moment enjoying myself. I'm trying to change that during 2nd year and beyond, so I don't look back later and wish I had enjoyed it more.

I really, really hope you can do that.

I have personally found that every year has gotten *more* stressful and it keeps just getting worse and worse. Second year was exponentially more stressful than first year - I realized once I stepped into second year that my school “eased” me into it - first year was so much easier (and I thought first year was horrible at the time).

So many people say third year is better than first and second, but it hasn’t been for me. As a former healthcare worker, I guess I didn’t realize how toxic the culture in medicine is - medicine as in becoming a physician in general, not the entire medical field. I was never held up to the unrealistic expectations I am now in my previous career. It’s just expected you’re going to half kill yourself for this. I also did a lot of precepting in my previous role and I would never in a million years expect of anyone new to the specialty that I worked to immediately take the reins and take a full patient load, with little knowledge, the way we expect med students to do it. I usually had anyone I was training do pure shadowing and touch nothing at least the first few days, with a running commentary on why I did everything the way I did it, so they could start taking small steps toward responsibility starting, at the earliest, day 4 or 5, unless they asked me if they could do things earlier.

My personal favorite is my preceptors (multiple) who just tell me to go write a note, give me NO guidance on how they want it done, and then rip it apart and say how terrible it is when I come back because I did it the way I learned on the last rotation, and they want theirs completely different. I just had my most recent example this week - a preceptor told me my note was “horrible” and ”way below what she expected” because I had my plan organized by problem instead of organ system, which is literally how all of my other rotations have wanted it. If I was training someone, what I would do FIRST is write a couple note in front of them to show them how I liked it structured, and then have them try later... especially if I wanted something done in a wildly different way than everyone else. I wouldn’t expect anyone to just read my mind and rip them a new a**hole if they didn’t. That’s pretty unique to medicine IMO, compared to where I came from.

I have major regrets at this point, but at least I only have one year left, and I have way too much debt to quit now.

 

[DO2015CA]

I really, really hope you can do that.

I have personally found that every year has gotten *more* stressful and it keeps just getting worse and worse. Second year was exponentially more stressful than first year - I realized once I stepped into second year that my school “eased” me into it - first year was so much easier (and I thought first year was horrible at the time).

So many people say third year is better than first and second, but it hasn’t been for me. As a former healthcare worker, I guess I didn’t realize how toxic the culture in medicine is - medicine as in becoming a physician in general, not the entire medical field. I was never held up to the unrealistic expectations I am now in my previous career. It’s just expected you’re going to half kill yourself for this. I also did a lot of precepting in my previous role and I would never in a million years expect of anyone new to the specialty that I worked to immediately take the reins and take a full patient load, with little knowledge, the way we expect med students to do it. I usually had anyone I was training do pure shadowing and touch nothing at least the first few days, with a running commentary on why I did everything the way I did it, so they could start taking small steps toward responsibility starting, at the earliest, day 4 or 5, unless they asked me if they could do things earlier.

My personal favorite is my preceptors (multiple) who just tell me to go write a note, give me NO guidance on how they want it done, and then rip it apart and say how terrible it is when I come back because I did it the way I learned on the last rotation, and they want theirs completely different. I just had my most recent example this week - a preceptor told me my note was “horrible” and ”way below what she expected” because I had my plan organized by problem instead of organ system, which is literally how all of my other rotations have wanted it. If I was training someone, what I would do FIRST is write a couple note in front of them to show them how I liked it structured, and then have them try later... especially if I wanted something done in a wildly different way than everyone else. I wouldn’t expect anyone to just read my mind and rip them a new a**hole if they didn’t. That’s pretty unique to medicine IMO, compared to where I came from.

I have major regrets at this point, but at least I only have one year left, and I have way too much debt to quit now.

The note thing is ridiculous. I don’t critique students on structure only content and plan. I think people are dumb for getting upset about that stuff.

As for being held to a ridiculous standard right off the bat, that’s the difference between physician and other roles in healthcare. The buck stops with us. It’s a rough way to learn but you learn a lot more a lot faster this way imo. Now that means teaching medicine not notes.

Ps system based note is doodoo

 

[calivianya]

The note thing is ridiculous. I don’t critique students on structure only content and plan. I think people are dumb for getting upset about that stuff.

As for being held to a ridiculous standard right off the bat, that’s the difference between physician and other roles in healthcare. The buck stops with us. It’s a rough way to learn but you learn a lot more a lot faster this way imo. Now that means teaching medicine not notes.

Ps system based note is doodoo

I’d be totally okay with all of that if I was being taught. But I’m more just being thrown into a room, expected to use UpToDate to come up with a plan if I don’t know how to treat something (I am often expected to finish notes before my preceptor comes in for the day, so I don’t have anyone to ask if I have questions), and then the “teaching” afterwards is just whether or not my preceptor agrees with my note. I’ve had four preceptors so far straight up tell me on the first day something along the lines of, “By the way, I don’t like to teach,” ”I’m not a good teacher,” or “If you have a question, ask, but otherwise I don’t really teach.”

It’s like if they’re just confirming that UpToDate is right, which obviously it’s going to be, I don’t feel like they’re actually teaching *me* anything. I feel like most of what I’m learning from my preceptors is what behaviors to avoid when precepting students, and most of what I’m learning from rotations is how to get faster at writing notes.

 

[theendisnigh]

A bit nontrad, but I've considered other career paths and concluded, given my type A-ness and need to do 20 things at a time, that any career path would be stressful. If I have time in any other job, I'll spend it with more things to fill my time. Most other people also have stressful jobs and work crazy hours, often with less benefits and security in their position than a physician may have. I might as well use that time doing something I love.

 

[deleted1079620]

I really, really hope you can do that.

I have personally found that every year has gotten *more* stressful and it keeps just getting worse and worse. Second year was exponentially more stressful than first year - I realized once I stepped into second year that my school “eased” me into it - first year was so much easier (and I thought first year was horrible at the time).

So many people say third year is better than first and second, but it hasn’t been for me. As a former healthcare worker, I guess I didn’t realize how toxic the culture in medicine is - medicine as in becoming a physician in general, not the entire medical field. I was never held up to the unrealistic expectations I am now in my previous career. It’s just expected you’re going to half kill yourself for this. I also did a lot of precepting in my previous role and I would never in a million years expect of anyone new to the specialty that I worked to immediately take the reins and take a full patient load, with little knowledge, the way we expect med students to do it. I usually had anyone I was training do pure shadowing and touch nothing at least the first few days, with a running commentary on why I did everything the way I did it, so they could start taking small steps toward responsibility starting, at the earliest, day 4 or 5, unless they asked me if they could do things earlier.

My personal favorite is my preceptors (multiple) who just tell me to go write a note, give me NO guidance on how they want it done, and then rip it apart and say how terrible it is when I come back because I did it the way I learned on the last rotation, and they want theirs completely different. I just had my most recent example this week - a preceptor told me my note was “horrible” and ”way below what she expected” because I had my plan organized by problem instead of organ system, which is literally how all of my other rotations have wanted it. If I was training someone, what I would do FIRST is write a couple note in front of them to show them how I liked it structured, and then have them try later... especially if I wanted something done in a wildly different way than everyone else. I wouldn’t expect anyone to just read my mind and rip them a new a**hole if they didn’t. That’s pretty unique to medicine IMO, compared to where I came from.

I have major regrets at this point, but at least I only have one year left, and I have way too much debt to quit now.

That all sounds really terrible and stressful. I’m so sorry that you’re going through that, and I hope you have future rotations that are more pleasant.

 

[DO2015CA]

I’d be totally okay with all of that if I was being taught. But I’m more just being thrown into a room, expected to use UpToDate to come up with a plan if I don’t know how to treat something (I am often expected to finish notes before my preceptor comes in for the day, so I don’t have anyone to ask if I have questions), and then the “teaching” afterwards is just whether or not my preceptor agrees with my note. I’ve had four preceptors so far straight up tell me on the first day something along the lines of, “By the way, I don’t like to teach,” ”I’m not a good teacher,” or “If you have a question, ask, but otherwise I don’t really teach.”

It’s like if they’re just confirming that UpToDate is right, which obviously it’s going to be, I don’t feel like they’re actually teaching *me* anything. I feel like most of what I’m learning from my preceptors is what behaviors to avoid when precepting students, and most of what I’m learning from rotations is how to get faster at writing notes.

Ya that’s speaking more to preceptorship trash rotations than doctor training path. Unfortunately that’s how most DO schools operate these days. I agree with you on that front. I went through it and really didn’t understand how woefully under taught I was until I started residency. Only then was I able to see what residency program education offers medical students rotating with them.

 

[Splenda88]

I regretted it as well until I signed my first hospitalist contract a few days ago. Holy sh***t! that is a lot of money I am gonna make.

 

[MavFab]

I’d be totally okay with all of that if I was being taught. But I’m more just being thrown into a room, expected to use UpToDate to come up with a plan if I don’t know how to treat something (I am often expected to finish notes before my preceptor comes in for the day, so I don’t have anyone to ask if I have questions), and then the “teaching” afterwards is just whether or not my preceptor agrees with my note. I’ve had four preceptors so far straight up tell me on the first day something along the lines of, “By the way, I don’t like to teach,” ”I’m not a good teacher,” or “If you have a question, ask, but otherwise I don’t really teach.”

It’s like if they’re just confirming that UpToDate is right, which obviously it’s going to be, I don’t feel like they’re actually teaching *me* anything. I feel like most of what I’m learning from my preceptors is what behaviors to avoid when precepting students, and most of what I’m learning from rotations is how to get faster at writing notes.

I know we had this discussion before, but I think it is crazy that we attend the same school and my rotations were completely different. Mine were honestly too chill and the attendings barely read over the notes I wrote. 3rd year was so much easier for me than 1st or 2nd.

 

[calivianya]

I know we had this discussion before, but I think it is crazy that we attend the same school and my rotations were completely different. Mine were honestly too chill and the attendings barely read over the notes I wrote. 3rd year was so much easier for me than 1st or 2nd.

This just shows how much DO schools really need closer monitoring as to what standards their clinical experiences are held to. You’d think we’d have similar experiences going to the same school.

 

[Splenda88]

This just shows how much DO schools really need closer monitoring as to what standards their clinical experiences are held to. You’d think we’d have similar experiences going to the same school.

A lot these things are attending-dependent. I attended an MD school and clerkships were all over the map. For instance, I was first assist during surgery (yes, the operating reports have my name on them as first assist) and I rounded by myself on all post-op patients (attending see patients at the end of the day if there is no urgent things to address). My classmates who rotated at other facilities were somewhat shadowing.

 

[Dave1980]

I'm only an OMS1 but I'm already feeling very isolated in school from my friends/family and can see how long the road is ahead. I was a nurse for a few years prior to medical school so I'm not new to healthcare. I'm only 27, I feel like I shouldn't even be complaining as I have a handful of classmates older than me, although a majority of the class seems to be 20-24. I used to travel a lot, most of my friends are getting married, buying homes, traveling or having children and here I am stuck in a weird transitional time of my life until at least 34 (post residency)

There is noting stopping you from doing all of those things as a med student (maybe not buying a house part). If you are in the mindset that you have to wait until you're an Attending to travel, have kids, get married, and buy a house you are missing out.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Ya that’s speaking more to preceptorship trash rotations than doctor training path. Unfortunately that’s how most DO schools operate these days. I agree with you on that front. I went through it and really didn’t understand how woefully under taught I was until I started residency. Only then was I able to see what residency program education offers medical students rotating with them.

Agreed.

As an osteopathic med student I had a terrible clinical experience. Poor teaching, almost no guidance, and an unnecessary harsh treatment from attendings and residents.

My residency experience, at an MD university program, is night and day different. It still can be stressful. I still get “pimped”. However it’s done to help me learn and think critically not for the sake of ****ting on me. The students are treated extremely well. They are a very valuable member of the healthcare team and they KNOW it.

Don’t let your medical school clinical experience discourage you. Things are much better on the other side. Just aim to match somewhere academic, or semi academic

 

[47ForYou]

I am on the opposite side of the spectrum.
I was accepted to med school at age 20 and started at age 21 (at a DO school). I am currently 24 and in 3rd year.
I have never earned a "decent" income yet. I see my friends (my age) earning well as engineers, finance bros, etc. and having fun in life : going to expensive restaurants, visiting various downtowns, trips to the Grand Canyon, etc. I don't have either the time or money to join them.

I am "wasting" my 20s in medicine, and not having any of the fun they're having. But I realized that going clubbing every weekend, buying $15 drinks, and eating at expensive restaurants is a very limited way to enjoy life. It gets old soon.

What does not (and should not) get old is something you will be doing for MOST of your waking hours in this lifetime. Ie. Work. If you know for sure that working as a doctor will not get old for you, continue on this path.
Otherwise, the sacrifices needed in med school and residency are NOT worth it.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I am on the opposite side of the spectrum.
I was accepted to med school at age 20 and started at age 21 (at a DO school). I am currently 24 and in 3rd year.
I have never earned a "decent" income yet. I see my friends (my age) earning well as engineers, finance bros, etc. and having fun in life : going to expensive restaurants, visiting various downtowns, trips to the Grand Canyon, etc. I don't have either the time or money to join them.

I am "wasting" my 20s in medicine, and not having any of the fun they're having. But I realized that going clubbing every weekend, buying $15 drinks, and eating at expensive restaurants is a very limited way to enjoy life. It gets old soon.

What does not (and should not) get old is something you will be doing for MOST of your waking hours in this lifetime. Ie. Work. If you know for sure that working as a doctor will not get old for you, continue on this path.
Otherwise, the sacrifices needed in med school and residency are NOT worth it.

You’re not wasting your 20s. You’ll be making an average American salary at 25 and be in top 90th percentile by as early as 28.

There’s no better alternative to your story no matter how we spin it.

Not shedding a tear for you, sorry.

 

[Splenda88]

You’re not wasting your 20s. You’ll be making an average American salary at 25 and be in top 90th percentile by as early as 28.

There’s no better alternative to your story no matter how we spin it.

Not shedding a tear for you, sorry.

People in medicine have a distorted reality of what the average American is making. Most 22-26 y/o people with college degree are not making >100k/yr. Of course, there is a minority with engineering, computer science, finance, law degrees from good universities who are doing well. However, the average individual in that age group with a college degree is making 50-70k/yr.

Also, I remember many of my med school classmates traveled and partied more than the average 22-26 y/o IMO.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Yes and no. My med school experience was awful and I could see the writing on the wall that being a doctor sucks irl. Plus the way people have responded so poorly to covid left me disgusted. Recently left and haven't been this happy in years. However I never would have known this if I hadn't attended and likely would've had a "I could've been a contender" attitude for the rest of my life.

 

[zNoodlez]

Yep. Recently left and haven't been this happy in years.

I would love to hear your story

 

[getfat]

Started at 27. Entering Intern year now. FOMO is relative. I don't feel like i missed out on too much. Med school was a ton of fun and i'm excited for intern year. Love my class and vibe pretty well with the seniors.

I have friends that are doing the whole SO, kids, house and all that. They love it but they complain about it all the time.

Don't regret a thing. The only con so far is that for most of your time you're unsure exactly where you're going to live for most of the time. Moved around a ton for rotations, residency, and will probably move again for fellowship. On top of that most attendings don't stay at their first job for very long. So it's really hard to plant roots anywhere.

 

[ArbitraryUsername]

Starting medical school at 50 and I don't have a single regret. Spent most of my life working and raising my children and supporting other people in their pursuits and it is time now to pursue my dreams. Truthfully, I feel better equipped to handle the rigors of medical school at 50 than I ever would have in my 20's... I have maturity, life experience, research and job experience, financial security, the ability to relate to faculty and attending physicians, and an amazing sense of peace and self-confidence. You are never too old to be who you are meant to be.

 

[Osminog]

Starting medical school at 50 and I don't have a single regret. Spent most of my life working and raising my children and supporting other people in their pursuits and it is time now to pursue my dreams. Truthfully, I feel better equipped to handle the rigors of medical school at 50 than I ever would have in my 20's... I have maturity, life experience, research and job experience, financial security, the ability to relate to faculty and attending physicians, and an amazing sense of peace and self-confidence. You are never too old to be who you are meant to be.

Why not just become a PA and save yourself 5+ years of brutal education and training?

 

[Splenda88]

Why not just become a PA and save yourself 5+ years of brutal education and training?

YOLO.

PA is 2.5 yrs and med school is 4 yrs. After 4 yrs of med school, you are a physician. You just work a lot of hours for 55-70k/yr for the 3-7 yrs of residency. That was one of my rationals when I decided to pursue MD/DO instead of NP (former RN) in my 30s. Just graduated residency and have ZERO regret.

 

[DO2015CA]

YOLO.

PA is 2.5 yrs and med school is 4 yrs. After 4 yrs of med school, you are a physician. You just work a lot of hours for 55-70k/yr for the 3-7 yrs of residency. That was one of my rationals when I decided to pursue MD/DO instead of NP (former RN) in my 30s. Just graduated residency and have ZERO regret.

Ya but 30s and 50s is a big difference. I understand going both ways.

 

[sylvanthus]

Starting medical school at 50 and I don't have a single regret. Spent most of my life working and raising my children and supporting other people in their pursuits and it is time now to pursue my dreams. Truthfully, I feel better equipped to handle the rigors of medical school at 50 than I ever would have in my 20's... I have maturity, life experience, research and job experience, financial security, the ability to relate to faculty and attending physicians, and an amazing sense of peace and self-confidence. You are never too old to be who you are meant to be.

I think this post is extremely naive. How can you understand the rigors and feel equipped to handle them when you havent started? How can you state anything regarding regret or not regretting when you havent even begun?

 

[DO2015CA]

I think this post is extremely naive. How can you understand the rigors and feel equipped to handle them when you havent started? How can you state anything regarding regret or not regretting when you havent even begun?

Yes! And they are fluid emotions. Sometimes I regret going into medicine. Luckily that vast majority of time I do not.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I think this post is extremely naive. How can you understand the rigors and feel equipped to handle them when you havent started? How can you state anything regarding regret or not regretting when you havent even begun?

Agreed. Wait til they're finally done with residency at 57 (at the earliest) with 300k+ to pay back. Then they can comment on whether or not they regret it.

 

[AvsPearTree]

Agreed. Wait til they're finally done with residency at 57 (at the earliest) with 300k+ to pay back. Then they can comment on whether or not they regret it.

what’s exactly wrong with ending residency at 57? Also not everyone will have even close to 300k in debt after med school. Maybe someone in their 50s who stated they’re financially secure has the means to pay for school.

I think this post is extremely naive. How can you understand the rigors and feel equipped to handle them when you havent started? How can you state anything regarding regret or not regretting when you havent even begun?

why exactly can one not feel like they are equipped to handle it? Or that they won’t understand the rigors? You can’t develop any abilities to handle a vigorous studying/work regime in any other manner? If I go through someone incredibly rigorous that’s not medical school, can I not potentially apply what I learned from that to medical school?

 

[DO2015CA]

what’s exactly wrong with ending residency at 57? Also not everyone will have even close to 300k in debt after med school. Maybe someone in their 50s who stated they’re financially secure has the means to pay for school.



why exactly can one not feel like they are equipped to handle it? Or that they won’t understand the rigors? You can’t develop any abilities to handle a vigorous studying/work regime in any other manner? If I go through someone incredibly rigorous that’s not medical school, can I not potentially apply what I learned from that to medical school?

Because you can't accurately evaluate your readiness of the unknown. You may very well be equipped based on something else rigorous, but many many people still feel blindsided by medical education. Someone at the very beginning that has yet to experience cannot speak from a place of authority on their understanding of rigorousness if they've never experienced it.

 

[AvsPearTree]

Because you can't accurately evaluate your readiness of the unknown. You may very well be equipped based on something else rigorous, but many many people still feel blindsided by medical education. Someone at the very beginning that has yet to experience cannot speak from a place of authority on their understanding of rigorousness if they've never experienced it.

medschoolat50 states that he just feels better equipped compared to when he was 20. Hardly seems like he’s trying to speak from a place of authority on the subject. I don’t see them accused of being naive as justified.

do I personally have any understanding of medical school and how hard it will be? Obviously not, but I sure do feel that I am way better equipped to handle med school with everything I’ve learned in life up to now compared to if I just hopped into school when I was 21.

 

[DO2015CA]

medschoolat50 states that he just feels better equipped compared to when he was 20. Hardly seems like he’s trying to speak from a place of authority on the subject. I don’t see them accused of being naive as justified.

do I personally have any understanding of medical school and how hard it will be? Obviously not, but I sure do feel that I am way better equipped to handle med school with everything I’ve learned in life up to now compared to if I just hopped into school when I was 21.

You are correct. Ones self evaluation of being better prepared now vs when you were 20 is a valid argument. It’s the after the ellipses that ventures into the naive. Listing those attributes reads as you are self analyzing why you are able to handle the rigors. When really you don’t know if you can handle the rigors. What you do know is that you are more capable of handling the rigors compared to when you are 20. Again, I wasn’t the one that made that statement but im interpreting the post the same way they did.

 

[sunshinefl]

why exactly can one not feel like they are equipped to handle it?

Because they aren’t in it to know if they are equipped.

Or that they won’t understand the rigors?

You just can’t until you do it.

You can’t develop any abilities to handle a vigorous studying/work regime in any other manner?

Somewhat, sure. But there is nothing like medical school.

If I go through someone incredibly rigorous that’s not medical school, can I not potentially apply what I learned from that to medical school?

Not really, no.

 

[Chads2]

As an osteopathic med student I had a terrible clinical experience. Poor teaching, almost no guidance, and an unnecessary harsh treatment from attendings and residents.

My residency experience, at an MD university program, is night and day different. It still can be stressful. I still get “pimped”. However it’s done to help me learn and think critically not for the sake of ****ting on me.

Man, I wish I could respond to all of you. I’m a nontrad, former healthcare worker, started med school at 30, DO. University MD internal medicine residency. Faculty now for 7 years.

Due to some of my weak clinical rotations (in terms of both structure and content), I have dedicated myself to teaching clinical medicine. After rounds, I give small topic presentations, 15-20 minutes on things like Heart Failure, COPD, Inpatient DM... or skills teaching, like EKG reading, ABG interpretation, rad rounds...or even EMR tips and tricks.

Medicine doesn’t have to be toxic and I have had a few good attendings guide me, too. I want to be one of those attendings for others, too.

 

[AvsPearTree]

Because they aren’t in it to know if they are equipped.

You just can’t until you do it.

Somewhat, sure. But there is nothing like medical school.

Not really, no.

So if you’re so absolute in your answers why does even AAMC toute about adcoms stating,

“Once older students adjust, admissions officers say, they often emerge as leaders in their classes and excel in areas where younger students stumble. “Things that might worry a 20-something just kind of roll off them,” Ganchorre says. “They have extreme maturity.””

sounds like somehow they are utilizing tools they possibly acquired outside of medical to help them in medical school?

 

[sunshinefl]

So if you’re so absolute in your answers why does even AAMC toute about adcoms stating,

“Once older students adjust, admissions officers say, they often emerge as leaders in their classes and excel in areas where younger students stumble. “Things that might worry a 20-something just kind of roll off them,” Ganchorre says. “They have extreme maturity.””

sounds like somehow they are utilizing tools they possibly acquired outside of medical to help them in medical school?

One random quote from an adcom about non-trad maturity =/= any person magically being equipped for the rigor of Medical school, let alone able to accurately appraise their readiness without doing it.

I don’t even understand what bone to pick you are after.

 

[thepoopologist]

It is what it is at this point. I don't have the same energy as I did in my 20s, and I do wonder if I could've gone a different route with something less time consuming that would've made me a good living. But I did stay employed and away from the virus during the surges, work 4 days a week, and have lots and lots of vacation time. I sometimes like what I do, I sometimes just tolerate it. What I do like is getting things like gas and groceries and take out and paying my bills without worrying about money. I also like the cost of living adjustments I get to somewhat keep up with inflation.

I think the only thing that would've made me really regret it is if I failed out of school, failed to match, or got kicked out of residency. It happens more often than is said on these forums. When I was a premed around 2008 all I ever read on SDN was stuff like if you get in you're 99.9% guaranteed to graduate. Not the case at all, especially with DO schools. There were people who seemed to exude confidence, say facts off the top of their head, and then they were gone cause it turns out they were failing everything. Or a classmate who asked the most basic questions, couldn't seem to catch up to anything, but then matched derm. Or going to M3 and M4 and rotating with people who had started a year or two before you. Anyway it all was a big deal back then but I hardly think about any of them anymore

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Yep. Recently left and haven't been this happy in years.

left medicine?

 

[tinyhandsbob]

It is what it is at this point. I don't have the same energy as I did in my 20s, and I do wonder if I could've gone a different route with something less time consuming that would've made me a good living. But I did stay employed and away from the virus during the surges, work 4 days a week, and have lots and lots of vacation time. I sometimes like what I do, I sometimes just tolerate it. What I do like is getting things like gas and groceries and take out and paying my bills without worrying about money. I also like the cost of living adjustments I get to somewhat keep up with inflation.

I think the only thing that would've made me really regret it is if I failed out of school, failed to match, or got kicked out of residency. It happens more often than is said on these forums. When I was a premed around 2008 all I ever read on SDN was stuff like if you get in you're 99.9% guaranteed to graduate. Not the case at all, especially with DO schools. There were people who seemed to exude confidence, say facts off the top of their head, and then they were gone cause it turns out they were failing everything. Or a classmate who asked the most basic questions, couldn't seem to catch up to anything, but then matched derm. Or going to M3 and M4 and rotating with people who had started a year or two before you. Anyway it all was a big deal back then but I hardly think about any of them anymore

Agree that we are mostly getting the perspective of those who 'made it'. Wonder what those who failed out, failed to match or got kicked out of residency would have to say about the topic. Unfortunately (or fortunately for them) they have probably turned the page and don't roam around SDN forums any longer.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

I really, really hope you can do that.

I have personally found that every year has gotten *more* stressful and it keeps just getting worse and worse. Second year was exponentially more stressful than first year - I realized once I stepped into second year that my school “eased” me into it - first year was so much easier (and I thought first year was horrible at the time).

So many people say third year is better than first and second, but it hasn’t been for me. As a former healthcare worker, I guess I didn’t realize how toxic the culture in medicine is - medicine as in becoming a physician in general, not the entire medical field. I was never held up to the unrealistic expectations I am now in my previous career. It’s just expected you’re going to half kill yourself for this. I also did a lot of precepting in my previous role and I would never in a million years expect of anyone new to the specialty that I worked to immediately take the reins and take a full patient load, with little knowledge, the way we expect med students to do it. I usually had anyone I was training do pure shadowing and touch nothing at least the first few days, with a running commentary on why I did everything the way I did it, so they could start taking small steps toward responsibility starting, at the earliest, day 4 or 5, unless they asked me if they could do things earlier.

My personal favorite is my preceptors (multiple) who just tell me to go write a note, give me NO guidance on how they want it done, and then rip it apart and say how terrible it is when I come back because I did it the way I learned on the last rotation, and they want theirs completely different. I just had my most recent example this week - a preceptor told me my note was “horrible” and ”way below what she expected” because I had my plan organized by problem instead of organ system, which is literally how all of my other rotations have wanted it. If I was training someone, what I would do FIRST is write a couple note in front of them to show them how I liked it structured, and then have them try later... especially if I wanted something done in a wildly different way than everyone else. I wouldn’t expect anyone to just read my mind and rip them a new a**hole if they didn’t. That’s pretty unique to medicine IMO, compared to where I came from.

I have major regrets at this point, but at least I only have one year left, and I have way too much debt to quit now.

Agreed on the toxicity. It gets too little discussion (off SDN) and is pretty unique to medicine (as well as some of the other basic sciences & engineering) from what I've seen. It's ironic as one would expect a profession dedicated to caring to care about the wellbeing of its members and civility of its culture. The profession is doing a terrible job of screening out/demoting the psychopaths and a**holes. It's really gotten to the point of a crisis in the culture and merits major systemic reforms.

 

[acstylin]

I think this post is extremely naive. How can you understand the rigors and feel equipped to handle them when you havent started? How can you state anything regarding regret or not regretting when you havent even begun?

I don’t think it’s naive for an older non trad to be confident in their decision and ability to be successful in it without knowing what is ahead. There is something about having life experience and knowing how oneself responds to stress and pressure that lets a person know if they can accomplish something. I’m old. I know I will pass medical school. I know it’s harder for me than for others because I don’t have the ability to remember like I used to but ill stay up later and start earlier and outwork every one in my class if that’s what it will take to pass. Will it be worth it? I don’t know. I don’t know what the other side looks like but I 100% know that I will be successful. They will give me an MD or put me in a body bag. No other option. I think most of us nontrads think this same way. We know how to work. We know our limits and we wouldn’t be in Med school otherwise.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Because you can't accurately evaluate your readiness of the unknown. You may very well be equipped based on something else rigorous, but many many people still feel blindsided by medical education. Someone at the very beginning that has yet to experience cannot speak from a place of authority on their understanding of rigorousness if they've never experienced it.

This is so absurd. What is it to you that this person is too optimistic, maybe naively, about starting medical school? You re not them, you don't know their specific circumstances, what else they ve achieved etc.. How many other doctorates do you hold in addition to medicine to have the personal authority to comment on how a medical doctorate compares in rigurousness to other demanding fields? Unless you ve completed every major doctorate, you don't have grounds to make an absolute statement on who has the authority to have an opinion and who does not. Their reply to OP is just as valid as anyone elses on here and it's for OP to decide what they find useful.

What it feels like to me is that you don't like this answer from a contributor who seems to (correctly or incorrectly) think medicine will be easier for them, because you had a tough time during your medical education and, God forbid, anyone else having an easier experience because we, of course, have to perpetuate the current and historical abuse in medical education with every generation of new docs. Even being optimistic about our experience possibly being better than that of the generation before us, somehow makes our opinion invalid.

The narrow-mindedness is nauseating.

 

[sunshinefl]

This is so absurd. What is it to you that this person is too optimistic, maybe naively, about starting medical school? You re not them, you don't know their specific circumstances, what else they ve achieved etc.. How many other doctorates do you hold in addition to medicine to have the personal authority to comment on how a medical doctorate compares in rigurousness to other demanding fields? Unless you ve completed every major doctorate, you don't have grounds to make an absolute statement on who has the authority to have an opinion and who does not. Their reply to OP is just as valid as anyone elses on here and it's for OP to decide what they find useful.

What it feels like to me is that you don't like this answer from a contributor who seems to (correctly or incorrectly) think medicine will be easier for them, because you had a tough time during your medical education and, God forbid, anyone else having an easier experience because we, of course, have to perpetuate the current and historical abuse in medical education with every generation of new docs. Even being optimistic about our experience possibly being better than that of the generation before us, somehow makes our opinion invalid.

The narrow-mindedness is nauseating.

So this responder, who went to medical school, can’t tell the original poster, who hasn’t been to medical school, that they don’t know what it’s like to be in medical school because...

*checks notes* the responder hasn’t completed every other grad program outside of medicine.

I hope you see the irony here.

 

[DO2015CA]

This is so absurd. What is it to you that this person is too optimistic, maybe naively, about starting medical school? You re not them, you don't know their specific circumstances, what else they ve achieved etc.. How many other doctorates do you hold in addition to medicine to have the personal authority to comment on how a medical doctorate compares in rigurousness to other demanding fields? Unless you ve completed every major doctorate, you don't have grounds to make an absolute statement on who has the authority to have an opinion and who does not. Their reply to OP is just as valid as anyone elses on here and it's for OP to decide what they find useful.

What it feels like to me is that you don't like this answer from a contributor who seems to (correctly or incorrectly) think medicine will be easier for them, because you had a tough time during your medical education and, God forbid, anyone else having an easier experience because we, of course, have to perpetuate the current and historical abuse in medical education with every generation of new docs. Even being optimistic about our experience possibly being better than that of the generation before us, somehow makes our opinion invalid.

The narrow-mindedness is nauseating.

Lol ok man whatever you say. Med school was fine. You seem to be reading into my statement too much. It’s not judgmental nor negative. You are correct, I do not hold any other doctorates. And because of that, I can’t say just because I went through med school I’ll be able to excel in them. I’m not even saying they can’t in med school. I believe absolutely anyone accepted to a US program has the ability to and when they don’t it’s due to extenuating circumstances. You aren’t accepted if you don’t have the potential. There is no negativity, pessimism, jadedness, or cynicism behind my post. You just don’t know what you don’t know until you experience it.

 

[Doc_Ock]

left medicine?

Correct.

 

[sylvanthus]

I don’t think it’s naive for an older non trad to be confident in their decision and ability to be successful in it without knowing what is ahead. There is something about having life experience and knowing how oneself responds to stress and pressure that lets a person know if they can accomplish something. I’m old. I know I will pass medical school. I know it’s harder for me than for others because I don’t have the ability to remember like I used to but ill stay up later and start earlier and outwork every one in my class if that’s what it will take to pass. Will it be worth it? I don’t know. I don’t know what the other side looks like but I 100% know that I will be successful. They will give me an MD or put me in a body bag. No other option. I think most of us nontrads think this same way. We know how to work. We know our limits and we wouldn’t be in Med school otherwise.

Yaaaaaaa were done here. Good luck.

 

[Chads2]

I can’t say who does and who doesn’t understand the rigors of med school.

But I believe Residency to be more rigorous.

 

[DO2015CA]

I can’t say who does and who doesn’t understand the rigors of med school.

But I believe Residency to be more rigorous.

1000%

 

[Chads2]

I regretted it as well until I signed my first hospitalist contract a few days ago. Holy sh***t! that is a lot of money I am gonna make.

congratulations, Splenda!

 

[LimpSpatula]

Going to med school at 50 screams naivety and entitlement to me.

 

[LimpSpatula]

Lol

Why?

I mean, I just think of some guy making a “you won’t go to med school” bet with his golf buddies. Prolly gonna post atiktok about it everyday until he has to do his first digital exam on a homeless guy at 3am. And not just any homeless guy. That one dude who eats roadkill.