Starting to regret going to an osteopathic school

[BrooklynDO]

Im gonna put in my two cents on a couple of things here:
1. Its interesting how no one seemed to react to Drusso's post outlining the current research and past research in manip... he was the only one (i think) who has a medical degree among the posters so far. Interesting how his statement seems ignored.

2. As an omm fellow, i found the following thing very annoying recently : it seems as though MS1's turn their brains off when the come into the OMM lab. For example : i tend to teach the students with me in terms of functional anatomy... and they are surprised when in OMM i ask them about the muscles inducing rotation of the vertebra or the insertion of muscles on the inferior nuchal line. I am friends with the anatomy fellows and find it funny that these same students can answer a pin in anatomy but cant tell me the actions of the rotatores! Its like they dont think it applies. Another example was when at attending was attempting to explain muscle physiology and the muscle spindle reflex to them. Several sat there, and one smirked, telling me that "this is nonsense, its not real" . It was interesting how fast they ran to us for explanations when they hit those topics in the physiology course.

3. The issue of belief : belief in what youre doing is actually very important in the medical field. No, you dont have to treat it like a religion, but just be open enough to believe that the person teaching you is trying to help you learn something.

4. As for the cranial field, im not going to defend it one way or the other at this point, but Id like you all to consider a historical analogy... something that is possible happening with us : Gallileo was imprissoned because the world was known to the science of the time to be flat.
Is it not possible that the methods we have to prove or show something now are not adequate.... Now, im not stating this as "proof" of anything except the issue isnt as cut and dry as you may believe.

4 . I totally agree with the posts about the aoa...
5. the comlex is a poorly written exam. this doesnt mean we get rid of it, it means we make it better.
~Brooklyn

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jgrady]

I have heard there's some funded research going here at AZCOM regarding OMM and Parkinson's Disease. I don't believe that this is an isolated case.

With the push for all medical research teams to publish the good with the bad (case studies, randomized tests, the entire results) its great to see JAOA publishing news about negative tests. The more research the better IMHO, and for the health of OMM and Osteopathy we need to have an "open kimono".

As for the other points, I agree with the majority of responses that OMM is only a tool. If offers us billing codes, modalities and diagnostic tools that no one else has access to. Heck, we bring a lot to table (e.g. new income!) to primary care, MD-based practices. Yes, studying OMM takes time, but much of it reinforces anatomy and physiology. And I don't find the "preaching" anymore overbearing than the preaching MDs and DOs get about reporting child abuse (policing our patients) and understanding all the old-dead-guy philosophies of the Human Behavior model (talk about wacky!).

Finally, Osteopathy is changing, both within and without. We are hearing that a combined Residency Match may be in place within the next 2-4 years. Moreover, there is already a lot of backlash against the AMA for "monopolist" practices. AOA and Osteopathy provide a GREAT counterbalance to the all-powerful AMA. We are physicians first and foremost. Do what is right for the patient. So if you don't like OMM treat it like Psychiatry, a ticket that has to be punched.

Btw, at AZCOM they expect you to try. But it's almost the opposite of what some other have stated about being threatened with a failing grade for not being an accomplished practioner (i.e. feeling the PRM). If you aren't good, they don't want you messing up patients or the pros reputations.

P.S. I do agree with frustration over two tests. USMLE has more legitimacy and value for an ever increasing majority of us. An OMM addendum to the USMLE would be great.

 

[VentdependenT]

Means to an end my friend. No I didn't intend that to rhyme.

 

[raptor5]

Its funny b/c one of our OMM profs (the chair) said today in OMM lecture that he doesn't believe in such and such but teaches it b/c of the boards. Sometimes at school it seems that the DO's that have complexes about being DO's are the OMM guys. It is like they are trying to prove to you that they are real docs. Just my observations.

 

[Ypo.]

I've heard from many many people that the COMLEX is an inferior exam. I don't understand how it could possibly be so inferior without it reflecting on our abilities as physicians (in other words, so why make such a big deal about it?). Wasn't it analyzed and proven to be a comparable exam to the USMLE?

When people say its inferior, do they mean they don't like taking it because its written poorly, or do they mean that it doesn't test the same knowledge as the USMLE...(aside from OMM of course)?

I realize that many DO students take the USMLE for several reasons (not enough osteopathic residencies to go around, and the poor quality of some of these residencies). I think it really sucks that so many DO students feel compelled to take an exam that they don't feel their education has been geared towards-and have not been taught strategy for that particular test. Lets face it-whatever the test you are taking- knowledge is important, but strategy is equally important. I'm lucky because I don't have to worry about taking the USMLE as a future MSUCOM student, but I do worry about all the negative talk about the COMLEX. If anyone could explain to me why they feel the COMLEX needs changing, or exactly how/why it is inferior, I would appreciate it. thanx

 

[me454555]

Its not so much that the COMLEX is inferior more so than the USMLE is the "gold standard". There are more allopathic students in this world than osteopathic. Allopathic residency programs and program directors are used to seeing the scores on USMLE and using them to compare their applicants. When an osteopathic student applies to an allopathic residency, the director is forced to compare his/her COMLEX grades to another student's USMLE scores. Although the tests are similar, you cannot get a fair comparison out of it. Its like comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit, both sweet, and both make good juice. But they are still different.

By taking the USMLE, you can make the life of that residency director much easier by allowing them to compare you to every other student on a level playing field.

No matter what school you plan on going to or what field you plan on entering I would advise taking at least step I of the USMLE b/c you never know. While its true you can get into most residencies w/out taking it, its an insurance policy for the just in case.

 

[(nicedream)]

Its not so much that the COMLEX is inferior more so than the USMLE is the "gold standard". There are more allopathic students in this world than osteopathic. Allopathic residency programs and program directors are used to seeing the scores on USMLE and using them to compare their applicants. When an osteopathic student applies to an allopathic residency, the director is forced to compare his/her COMLEX grades to another student's USMLE scores. Although the tests are similar, you cannot get a fair comparison out of it. Its like comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruit, both sweet, and both make good juice. But they are still different.

By taking the USMLE, you can make the life of that residency director much easier by allowing them to compare you to every other student on a level playing field.

No matter what school you plan on going to or what field you plan on entering I would advise taking at least step I of the USMLE b/c you never know. While its true you can get into most residencies w/out taking it, its an insurance policy for the just in case.

A couple things here:

1. It is not just that the COMLEX is not as recognizable by some PD's as the USMLE that makes it inferior. COMLEX-takers consistently comment on the actual inferiority of the exam, ie being poorly written etc.

2. If you are applying to DO residencies only, there is absolutely no reason to take the USMLE. Also if you're interested in a field with virtually no competition such as FP why would you take the USMLE?

 

[LukeWhite]

A couple things here:

1. It is not just that the COMLEX is not as recognizable by some PD's as the USMLE that makes it inferior. COMLEX-takers consistently comment on the actual inferiority of the exam, ie being poorly written etc.

2. If you are applying to DO residencies only, there is absolutely no reason to take the USMLE. Also if you're interested in a field with virtually no competition such as FP why would you take the USMLE?

Good points, though I would add something to your second. While FP as a whole isn't competitive, certain FP residencies are extraordinarily competitive, far more so than some less desirable positions in more competitive specialties.

So though you can get away with only COMLEX for most primary care, if you're planning on applying to one of the top residencies USMLE will only burnish your credentials. Of course, there's the risk of not doing well on the USMLE, but if that's a major risk for an individual, they're probably not going to get one of these top spots anyway.

All in all, I think the two-exam system is worthwhile, if not well thought out. It allows for two tiers of focus and competence, which allows for more primary care docs. The glaring flaw, as has been mentioned, is the fact that COMLEX insists on putting cranial in every test. That's akin to the USMLE deciding to put a dozen questions on acupuncture on the test.

Which ties into one poster's complaint that people don't take OMM as seriously as they should--When it's presented in a logical and non-arbitrary manner, people take it seriously. When instruction is haphazard, peppered with random questions without clinical significance, and graded by standards that subjective is too kind a word for, people will naturally decide that their studying is better spent elsewhere if it's not going to be reflected in their grades. OMM instruction has a lot of potential, but its tradition of being taught by distracted professors with little didactic experience and less sense of academic structure will keep it in the dark rooms in the back of the campus for a long time, I think.

 

[aecuenca2]

Good points, though I would add something to your second. While FP as a whole isn't competitive, certain FP residencies are extraordinarily competitive, far more so than some less desirable positions in more competitive specialties.

So though you can get away with only COMLEX for most primary care, if you're planning on applying to one of the top residencies USMLE will only burnish your credentials. Of course, there's the risk of not doing well on the USMLE, but if that's a major risk for an individual, they're probably not going to get one of these top spots anyway.

All in all, I think the two-exam system is worthwhile, if not well thought out. It allows for two tiers of focus and competence, which allows for more primary care docs. The glaring flaw, as has been mentioned, is the fact that COMLEX insists on putting cranial in every test. That's akin to the USMLE deciding to put a dozen questions on acupuncture on the test.

Which ties into one poster's complaint that people don't take OMM as seriously as they should--When it's presented in a logical and non-arbitrary manner, people take it seriously. When instruction is haphazard, peppered with random questions without clinical significance, and graded by standards that subjective is too kind a word for, people will naturally decide that their studying is better spent elsewhere if it's not going to be reflected in their grades. OMM instruction has a lot of potential, but its tradition of being taught by distracted professors with little didactic experience and less sense of academic structure will keep it in the dark rooms in the back of the campus for a long time, I think.

I also wanted to put my two cents in and absolutely agree with the above statement, especially the first few lines. There are certain FP programs that really are extremely competitive (in my FP program last year the program director stated that over 300 applicants applied for 7 spots) and so I took both the COMLEX and USMLE 1 and 2. And from personal experience, the COMLEX is a truly, poorly written exam with at times poor pictures. Comparing the both of them, the USMLE is a very well-written, 2nd/3rd tier problem solving examination. For example, I remember on the COMLEX the question "A patient has a red eye. What's the diagnosis?". And that was it! I mean, no other clinical correlation at all! It was absolutely ridiculous.

I've heard that the NBME may be taking over administrating the COMLEX, and if that's true let's hope they improve the quality of questions and the format of the exam. (2 days on paper vs. 1 day for USMLE on computer).

Again, just my opinion.

 

[Ypo.]

Thanks for the replies.

For those of you who took the USMLE, do you think that your classes were taught/geared in such a way that it helped prepare you for taking both the USMLE and the COMLEX? Or do you think they definitely prepared you more for the COMLEX? What I am getting at here is strategy. If your tests in medical school are written in the same way as the licensing exams, then you will be prepared for them. On the other hand, if the tests are completely different, you might be thrown by the change of format, and score poorly.

 

[JohnDO]

I think it's great that the JAOA is willing to print this. Not only did they publish an article that, apparently, does not claim to show that OMT works, but they also printed a letter of this nature from a DO.

I too am extremely pleased that the JAOA published that letter as well as the research. I sincerely hope they continue to do so. We, as future osteopaths, have a responsibility to ourselves and our profession to be our own biggest critics.

We need to assess the validity of OMT skeptically, as scientists, not members of a cult.

 

[timtye78]

Hello there!
I want to offer you some encouragement.

First of all. Finish your degree. Believe it or not, being a physician any type is still a good thing! OMM emphasis does taper off, especially after you start your clinical rotations. Even if your school forces you to rotate in OMT (like mine, TCOM) it is usually with a private doc who should be fairly laid-back about it.

Also, in the vast majority of residencies, obviously the MD programs, which statistics say that you will go into MD residency, no one will EVER ask you much more than "Can you fix my back?" You can even beg off nicely if you like!

In the residency you will find you have BEEN accepted. Finito! It doesn't even matter if someone comments to you or raises an eyebrow after scrutinizing your ID badge. At 2 am in the ER or on the floor with a cardiac arrest no one gives a **** that you are a DO. You are "Doctor X". Thats it.

Believe it or not, your degree will confer on you the ability to compete well in most residencies/specialties. Dont worry, you are allowed to have your own opinion on what you do or do not believe. Remember, you are a "consumer" who is purchasing and earning a medical degree with excellent earning potential/career potential. At my program (MD anesthesiology) I find that I stand very competent and have received outstanding reviews from my MD attendings. I can hold my own in a code and during case presentations and rounds. I passed the USMLE with a satisfactory score.

Once you have the degree, its yours. And believe it or not, even though it feels like they are force feeding OMM down your throat think of it as your instructors are trying to prep you for the COMLEX. Like it or not, it is accepted for medical licensure in all fifty states. The initials debate has been raged for decades and it doesn't seem like anythings going to happen anytime soon. Very soon you will realize two things.
1)Your working title will be "Doctor X" (not "Come here John Williams,DO") and
2) You will be known as "a Family Physician" or "an Anesthesiologist" or whatever, respectively. You will have the same earning potential as any MD.

It IS a good thing to be a DO!

Good luck!

First off, let me make it abundantly clear that I am NOT trying to start a flame war. I know how touchy these subjects can be. I really want a chance to vent and see if there are others out there who share my opinions.

I'm a first year DO student. While I was in undergrad, I was very, very enthusiastic about going to a DO school. I looked at it as a place where the alleged 'gunner-ism' and competitive atmosphere of the allopathic schools would be absent. My main reasons for wanting to be a DO was a more patient-centered thinking that the schools encouraged. My GPA and MCAT were competitive for MD and DO schools, so its not like I was forced into choosing a DO school because I couldn?t get in anywhere else. I genuinely wanted to be a DO.

But since the beginning of the year, I am getting more and more disgusted and dismayed at the attitudes of some of my classmates and of the faculty. Actually, not all of the faculty, just the OMM department.

I've never been a big fan of alternative medicine, so when my classmates started to talk about acupuncture and herbs and junk, I remained silent. So many of them were so excited about it. I'm skeptical, but I wanted to give OMM a chance. I began the year with an open mind, but at this point, I'm disgusted.

OMM is the sacred cow of the DO world. And the OMM faculty are the ones who enforce the religion. And they treat it like a religion - as if you have to 'believe' in order for it to work. I'm so sick and tired of being forced to 'drink the kool-aid' of a OMM. The fact that cranial osteopathy is even taught nowadays is enough to make me gag. Its embarrassing and frankly, it makes us look like fools as a profession.

The other thing that bugs me is the superiority complex that I see very often. As if in allopathic schools, they tell the student to focus on the symptoms and ignore the patient.

And the constant prattling about "treating the patient, not the symptoms" got very old, very quickly. I got really tired of explaining to friends and family what a DO is. I'm got very sick of pretentious people telling me that I'm an 'O'MS1, rather than a MS1. As I looked the AOA, I got even more discouraged. Here is an organization that seems bound and determined to keep us marginalized. Look at the nonsense they waste OUR money on: Postcards to TV shows, begging them to insert a DO character. Need I say more.

New DO schools open every year. Yet, the number of osteopathic residencies dwindles, and the ones that stay open are regarded as of questionable quality at best. I'm really starting to feel like I made a mistake in coming to a DO school. I can see people thriving here if they have a personality that leans towards alternative medicine, but I find it oppressive.

The DO world has some major issues that it needs to deal with. Here are my suggestions for change.

1)Eliminate the COMLEX. Why in the world should we have 2 distinct medical licensing exams? If the DO education is equivalent to an MD, then we should take the same test. Make OMM an add-on module just for us.

2)All medical schools, DO & MD should be accredited by the LCME, with oversight on the opening of new schools. It's not fair that we share the same profession as MDs, yet we can open schools left & right without any input from them. Its their future also.

3)Get rid of the osteopathic residencies. Either close them, or bring them up to par with allopathic programs, and open them to everyone.

4)Change the freakin name. There should be ONE set of damn initials for medical professionals, and it ought to be the one that 99% of the lay population recognizes. This is solely a pride issue of the old school DOs who run the AOA.

5)RESEARCH - Osteopathic medicine had leeched off of allopathic medicine since we accepted the use of drugs to treat illness. It's about time we started to contribute something back to the development of medicine.

6)OMM should either by backed up by peer-reviewed research or dropped. Let's shine some light on this - if it works, and can be proven, great. But why am I learning to manipulate the skull bones in one class, but in anatomy class, I'm told they are permanently fused?

I know the odds of any of these reforms happening is almost zero. And for me, I'm stuck and I'll have to make the best of my schooling. I can't transfer out or begin again, for personal reasons. But I sure wish someone had posted something like this when I was applying. I may have thought twice.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

The above post is great...way to be an authority on the subject TT!

Just wanted to add one thing that really rubbed me the right way about OMM:

At COMP, the instructors came right out early on and gave a little disclaimer that went something like this, "We acknowledge that many of you did not come here (meaning DO school) as a first choice, but now that you are here, we have two years to make instill/convince/bribe you into adopting this set of principles, etc...what you do after that is pretty much out of our hands."

I thought this was great, because I realized that there was no cult-like attempt to get us to join/buy into the darkside...instead, they have a job to do and they came right out with it...full disclosure. That is something I can appreciate to its fullest. I go through the motions, I play the game...and who knows, some of it may rub off on me. Either way, I know where they stand and I like that.

I am a little burnt by by the guest speakers who insist on feeding us the WE are better than THEM schtick, but the history of osteopathy is such that it is analogous to short-man's syndrome...and if you've ever been to the bar at 1 or 2AM...it is this little guy who is all sauced up that wants to finish up the night strong. Now this guy has been to the gym, you know he can hold his own, but he wants to prove it...he needs some witnesses to validate his "victory." Same thing...sort of He is feisty and just needs a pat on the back...someone to stroke his ego a bit so he knows that he is respected.

 

[Kevbot]

Most of our OMM faculty are wonderful (one of them was at PCOM last year), but one of them is a total fruitcake (SophieJane? Know what I'm saying? ). This person is way, way into cranial, says they practice "energy medicine", doesn't know CRAP about clinical medicine at ALL (like how to treat hypertension), says that OMM can cure dyslexsia, etc, and refuses to have lights on in their office because it ruins the "aura". We have to do breathing exercises ("picture the blue light...") and we're called "brilliant children of the universe". Etc. This one instructor has basically turned me off OMM.

I'll be matriculating in fall '05 and I was wondering this about OMM: Is the problem people have with OMM that it lacks the scientific rigor that the rest of medicine has, or is it that it makes us different from MD's? Which is it?

 

[drusso]

From the NIH CRISP Database:

Grant Number: 1U19AT002023-01A1
PI Name: SMITH, MICHAEL L.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title:
Project Title: Mechanisms of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM)

Abstract: The Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences (GSBS) is collaborating with the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (TCOM) at UNTHSC, and the Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine (AZCOM) to propose a Developmental Center for Research on Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (DCR-OMM). OMM is a body-based therapy as defined by the NCCAM definitions of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). The varied principles and practices of OMM are unique among other body-based therapies primarily because they are applied by fully licensed physicians and therefore can be applied to alleviate both musculoskeletal and visceral disease processes and readily integrated with conventional health care. Four key elements of osteopathic principles and practices will be investigated in this DCR-OMM: Study #1) Effects of direct biomechanical strain on the fascial tissues of the musculoskeletal system; Study #2) Effects of OMM (lymphatic pump) on the lymphatic duct lymph flow and the resultant potential beneficial effects on edema and immune function subsequent to an improvement in lymphatic circulation; Study #3) Effects of OMM on sympathetic neural activity either by affecting the sympathetic nervous system directly or by affecting the sympathetic nervous system indirectly by reduction of somatic dysfunction induced pain; and Study #4) Combined synergistic clinical outcome effects that result from applying OMM in patients post -CABG who have a complex combination of fascial restrictions, pathologic fluid shifts, somatic pain and hypersympathotonia. In 2001, the leading national osteopathic professional organizations endorsed and funded these investigators to establish a national Osteopathic Research Center (ORC) housed within the Physical Medicine Institute at the University of North Texas Health Science Center. The OMM research mission of the ORC is perfectly aligned with the goals of the U-19 DCR-OMM and the research priorities of NCCAM. We are all dedicated to the success of this DCR-OMM with the goal of developing into a P-01 Center of Excellence for Research on OMM to enable quality investigation and publication of the mechanisms of OMM.

Grant Number: 5K30AT000067-05
PI Name: STOLL, SCOTT T.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title: CHAIRMAN AND ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR
Project Title: OSTEOPATHIC MANIPULATIVE MEDICINE

Abstract: DESCRIPTION (Applicant's Abstract): The Physical Medicine Institute in conjunction with the Department of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM) formalized a Predoctoral Research Fellowship in OMM at the University of North Texas Health Science Center in 1998 as an extension of a Predoctoral Teaching Fellowship in OMM founded 1985. This program was designed to develop successful researchers in complementary & alternative medicine (CAM), specifically OMM. It collaborates with the School of Public Health, Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences, & various departments of Clinical Medicine; & is coordinating efforts to offer predoctoral fellows the combined D.O./M.P.H. degree through enrollment in a variety of research & CAM related courses. We propose to enhance the administrative, curricular, mentoring, & funding structures of the current research program. Development is targeted at: (1) curriculum expansion with courses on hypothesis building; biostatistics; epidemiology; clinical trial design; research methods; responsible conduct; ethical & regulatory issues in research, (2) development of new CAM-focused courses; (3) program extension to attract a wider audience including faculty, pre- and post- doctoral fellows, & allied health professionals; (4) establishment of annual CAM research conferences; (5) development of Continuing Medical Education courses in CAM; (6) formalization of various degree tracks; & (7) use of computer technologies for curricular advancement. Research fellows will acquire the skills necessary to successfully develop basic science & clinical research projects, attain funding, implement studies & publish quality research in CAM with the opportunity to advance toward various degrees in combination with or addition to their Doctor of Osteopathy degree. Fellows, at present, are competitively selected from a diverse multicultural pool of osteopathic medical students from the UNTHSC. This evolving predoctoral fellowship program has a successful track record of graduating accomplished clinical researchers, educators & administrators in OMM. This expanded & improved program will continue to develop future leaders and researchers capable of successful and competitive clinical & basic science research in CAM.

Thesaurus Terms:
alternative medicine, curriculum, education evaluation /planning, medical education
chiropractic, computer assisted instruction, continuing education, epidemiology, ethics, experimental design, health care personnel, health science research, physical therapy
clinical research



Grant Number: 1R13AT002467-01
PI Name: MISKOWICZ-RETZ, KONRAD C.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title:
Project Title: Support for Osteopathic Research Conference

Abstract: DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): Our goal is to hold a research conference sponsored by the American Osteopathic Association in San Francisco, CA on November 7-10, 2004. The title is "Manual Medicine in Special Populations: Children, Women and Athletes". Eight speakers have been selected who agree to present new and original research data regarding the basic science principles and the clinical efficacy of osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM). One additional speaker with original data will be added. In that each topic is a specific use of OMM and that OMM is considered a form of CAM, the program should be of interest to NCCAM. The didactic session format allows for four 30-40 minute presentations on each of three days. This promotes interaction in an intimate setting of investigators who have overlapping clinical interests. This is a fertile setting for generating additional collaboration and research plans. We are arranging joint sponsorship of one-third of the Conference with the American Osteopathic Academy of Sports Medicine. Members of the Academy are particularly interested in manipulative medicine in the prevention and treatment of sports injuries. A second component of the Conference that features original research is the poster session. We expect approximately 100 abstracts wilt be submitted to the AOA and reviewed by the Council on Research for scientific merit. The main criterion for acceptance is that they contain original research data. Abstract publication in the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association and presentation at the Conference in poster format follows. The poster presentation session includes a student research prize competition, with a $250 cash prize for top place in both the basic science and the clinical science categories.

Grant Number: 5K30HL004113-06
PI Name: PANETH, NIGEL S.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title: PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AND PEDIATRICS
Project Title: TRAINING CLINICAL RESEARCHERS FOR COMMUNITY SETTINGS

Abstract: The aim of this proposal, Training Clinical Researchers for Community Settings (TRECOS), is to train clinicians to conduct high quality clinical research, that can be undertaken in primary care and community settings that provide access to representative populations. The lead department for this application is the Department of Epidemiology in the College of Human Medicine at Michigan State University, but all five biomedical colleges, including colleges of osteopathic and veterinary medicine, nursing, and natural sciences, are participants in this effort. The community-based nature of medical and nursing education at our land-grant university makes MSU uniquely placed to train clinicians to become investigators capable of initiating broadly generalizable clinical research. We plan to enroll eight trainees per year for a two-year program which will include a core curriculum in epidemiology, biostatistics and research ethics; a supervised mentorship program providing access to more than forty faulty members in the five colleges with major research projects; a special seminar series; and a requirement for further coursework to complete a certificate program or masters degree in one of a number of disciplines relevant to clinical research. For most trainees, we envision completion of a newly developed 18-credit certificate program in clinical epidemiology and biostatistics, aimed at health professionals, and which provides the academic skills necessary for effective clinical research. The program is led by the Chair of the Department of Epidemiology, who is a clinician/investigator with considerable experience in developing clinical research, in teaching clinical research skills and in involving clinicians in research. Also involved is a faculty member from our Office of Medical Education, Research and Development, long one of the nation's leading centers of research in medical education effectiveness and evaluation of medical educational programs. Faculty members from a wide variety of departments, with research interests ranging from infant health to care of the elderly, and including strong and well-funded research programs in reproductive perinatal epidemiology, cancer research biostatistical methods and communicable diseases have agreed to volunteer their time to serve as mentors in this effort.

 

[medic170]

Thank You drusso

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

From the NIH CRISP Database:

Grant Number: 1U19AT002023-01A1
PI Name: SMITH, MICHAEL L.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title:
Project Title: Mechanisms of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM)

Abstract: The Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences (GSBS) is collaborating with the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (TCOM) at UNTHSC, and the Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine (AZCOM) to propose a Developmental Center for Research on Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (DCR-OMM). OMM is a body-based therapy as defined by the NCCAM definitions of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). The varied principles and practices of OMM are unique among other body-based therapies primarily because they are applied by fully licensed physicians and therefore can be applied to alleviate both musculoskeletal and visceral disease processes and readily integrated with conventional health care. Four key elements of osteopathic principles and practices will be investigated in this DCR-OMM: Study #1) Effects of direct biomechanical strain on the fascial tissues of the musculoskeletal system; Study #2) Effects of OMM (lymphatic pump) on the lymphatic duct lymph flow and the resultant potential beneficial effects on edema and immune function subsequent to an improvement in lymphatic circulation; Study #3) Effects of OMM on sympathetic neural activity either by affecting the sympathetic nervous system directly or by affecting the sympathetic nervous system indirectly by reduction of somatic dysfunction induced pain; and Study #4) Combined synergistic clinical outcome effects that result from applying OMM in patients post -CABG who have a complex combination of fascial restrictions, pathologic fluid shifts, somatic pain and hypersympathotonia. In 2001, the leading national osteopathic professional organizations endorsed and funded these investigators to establish a national Osteopathic Research Center (ORC) housed within the Physical Medicine Institute at the University of North Texas Health Science Center. The OMM research mission of the ORC is perfectly aligned with the goals of the U-19 DCR-OMM and the research priorities of NCCAM. We are all dedicated to the success of this DCR-OMM with the goal of developing into a P-01 Center of Excellence for Research on OMM to enable quality investigation and publication of the mechanisms of OMM.

Grant Number: 5K30AT000067-05
PI Name: STOLL, SCOTT T.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title: CHAIRMAN AND ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR
Project Title: OSTEOPATHIC MANIPULATIVE MEDICINE

Abstract: DESCRIPTION (Applicant's Abstract): The Physical Medicine Institute in conjunction with the Department of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM) formalized a Predoctoral Research Fellowship in OMM at the University of North Texas Health Science Center in 1998 as an extension of a Predoctoral Teaching Fellowship in OMM founded 1985. This program was designed to develop successful researchers in complementary & alternative medicine (CAM), specifically OMM. It collaborates with the School of Public Health, Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences, & various departments of Clinical Medicine; & is coordinating efforts to offer predoctoral fellows the combined D.O./M.P.H. degree through enrollment in a variety of research & CAM related courses. We propose to enhance the administrative, curricular, mentoring, & funding structures of the current research program. Development is targeted at: (1) curriculum expansion with courses on hypothesis building; biostatistics; epidemiology; clinical trial design; research methods; responsible conduct; ethical & regulatory issues in research, (2) development of new CAM-focused courses; (3) program extension to attract a wider audience including faculty, pre- and post- doctoral fellows, & allied health professionals; (4) establishment of annual CAM research conferences; (5) development of Continuing Medical Education courses in CAM; (6) formalization of various degree tracks; & (7) use of computer technologies for curricular advancement. Research fellows will acquire the skills necessary to successfully develop basic science & clinical research projects, attain funding, implement studies & publish quality research in CAM with the opportunity to advance toward various degrees in combination with or addition to their Doctor of Osteopathy degree. Fellows, at present, are competitively selected from a diverse multicultural pool of osteopathic medical students from the UNTHSC. This evolving predoctoral fellowship program has a successful track record of graduating accomplished clinical researchers, educators & administrators in OMM. This expanded & improved program will continue to develop future leaders and researchers capable of successful and competitive clinical & basic science research in CAM.

Thesaurus Terms:
alternative medicine, curriculum, education evaluation /planning, medical education
chiropractic, computer assisted instruction, continuing education, epidemiology, ethics, experimental design, health care personnel, health science research, physical therapy
clinical research



Grant Number: 1R13AT002467-01
PI Name: MISKOWICZ-RETZ, KONRAD C.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title:
Project Title: Support for Osteopathic Research Conference

Abstract: DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): Our goal is to hold a research conference sponsored by the American Osteopathic Association in San Francisco, CA on November 7-10, 2004. The title is "Manual Medicine in Special Populations: Children, Women and Athletes". Eight speakers have been selected who agree to present new and original research data regarding the basic science principles and the clinical efficacy of osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM). One additional speaker with original data will be added. In that each topic is a specific use of OMM and that OMM is considered a form of CAM, the program should be of interest to NCCAM. The didactic session format allows for four 30-40 minute presentations on each of three days. This promotes interaction in an intimate setting of investigators who have overlapping clinical interests. This is a fertile setting for generating additional collaboration and research plans. We are arranging joint sponsorship of one-third of the Conference with the American Osteopathic Academy of Sports Medicine. Members of the Academy are particularly interested in manipulative medicine in the prevention and treatment of sports injuries. A second component of the Conference that features original research is the poster session. We expect approximately 100 abstracts wilt be submitted to the AOA and reviewed by the Council on Research for scientific merit. The main criterion for acceptance is that they contain original research data. Abstract publication in the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association and presentation at the Conference in poster format follows. The poster presentation session includes a student research prize competition, with a $250 cash prize for top place in both the basic science and the clinical science categories.

Grant Number: 5K30HL004113-06
PI Name: PANETH, NIGEL S.
PI Email: [email protected]
PI Title: PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AND PEDIATRICS
Project Title: TRAINING CLINICAL RESEARCHERS FOR COMMUNITY SETTINGS

Abstract: The aim of this proposal, Training Clinical Researchers for Community Settings (TRECOS), is to train clinicians to conduct high quality clinical research, that can be undertaken in primary care and community settings that provide access to representative populations. The lead department for this application is the Department of Epidemiology in the College of Human Medicine at Michigan State University, but all five biomedical colleges, including colleges of osteopathic and veterinary medicine, nursing, and natural sciences, are participants in this effort. The community-based nature of medical and nursing education at our land-grant university makes MSU uniquely placed to train clinicians to become investigators capable of initiating broadly generalizable clinical research. We plan to enroll eight trainees per year for a two-year program which will include a core curriculum in epidemiology, biostatistics and research ethics; a supervised mentorship program providing access to more than forty faulty members in the five colleges with major research projects; a special seminar series; and a requirement for further coursework to complete a certificate program or masters degree in one of a number of disciplines relevant to clinical research. For most trainees, we envision completion of a newly developed 18-credit certificate program in clinical epidemiology and biostatistics, aimed at health professionals, and which provides the academic skills necessary for effective clinical research. The program is led by the Chair of the Department of Epidemiology, who is a clinician/investigator with considerable experience in developing clinical research, in teaching clinical research skills and in involving clinicians in research. Also involved is a faculty member from our Office of Medical Education, Research and Development, long one of the nation's leading centers of research in medical education effectiveness and evaluation of medical educational programs. Faculty members from a wide variety of departments, with research interests ranging from infant health to care of the elderly, and including strong and well-funded research programs in reproductive perinatal epidemiology, cancer research biostatistical methods and communicable diseases have agreed to volunteer their time to serve as mentors in this effort.

Do you happen to know the monetary amounts awarded for each of these grants? Just because someone got a grant...doesn't neccessarily mean a whole lot.

 

[BrooklynDO]

it means research has been approved for funding by the nih

 

[brianjc]

The amount for just the research conducted at AZCOM is $400,000. The rest of the grant was given to the researchers at TCOM. The total grant is almost 2 million!

 

[DrMom]

I've heard that the NBME may be taking over administrating the COMLEX, and if that's true let's hope they improve the quality of questions and the format of the exam. (2 days on paper vs. 1 day for USMLE on computer).

sounds like 2 bits of info got mixed up.

1. The NBOME is still going to administer COMLEX, but after July of 05 the exams (all 3 steps) will be computerized and 1 day.

2. There Osteopathic match will be using ERAS starting July 05, but it will still be a separate match. There are, however, ongoing negotiations regarding combining the 2 matches into a single one.

 

[Cowboy DO]

no stigma, eh? i'm tossing my head back and laughing my a$$ off. your innocence is baffling! i'm a first year at your beloved MSUCOM... and i can tell you if you want to see stigma, wait until you meet your MSUCHM classmates. you won't even have to go very far. and then of course, wait until you graduate and enter the hospitals and patients ask "so are you a real dr?"

there is stigma and there will always be stigma. the DO route is the harder path to walk.

If you want to call having to explain your profession to a pt. a stigma and taking the 20 seconds to do that the harder path, then I worry about what will happen when you are truly faced with discrimination.

Its sad that some people need to determine their self worth based upon how people perceive what they do for a living.

 

[daveyboy]

i guess some ppl are just more apt for that sort of thing. ive had to explain what im doing to nearly everyone in my life, and this not just the DO stuff but most everything i do. in my eyes, the DO route is better - assuming you dont just sit back and let everyone tell you what to do, the school experience is what you make of it. this goes for md schools also. but to me the do route is better because truely you are given a unique and powerful extra tool with which to practice medicine. you are also taught the anatomy and physiology more so than in md school. not all, but many specialites - this would be a benefit.

if you want stuff handed to you, go md. if you want to work at it and get the most out of your time, go DO. sure, you will have some bumps along the road, but that is the kind of stuff that makes life interesting... life is not about being alive, life is about the journey...

That is really a bit smug. You haven't even been through orientation yet, homey. Sometimes people just wanna vent their stress, so let the guy vent. What you are doing now is very much like a guy in a Lazy-Boy recliner yelling advice to a football game on TV. Ya dig?

 

[medic170]

no stigma, eh? i'm tossing my head back and laughing my a$$ off. your innocence is baffling! i'm a first year at your beloved MSUCOM... and i can tell you if you want to see stigma, wait until you meet your MSUCHM classmates. you won't even have to go very far. and then of course, wait until you graduate and enter the hospitals and patients ask "so are you a real dr?"

there is stigma and there will always be stigma. the DO route is the harder path to walk.

My innocence? I've been working in hospitals, physicians offices, and urgent cares for 7 years, and I have many close friends that are both MD's and DO's.. I know a thing or two, and there is little to no stigma. Just because you are a first year and I am not yet does not make you an expert. Like I told someone else, I was working in the medical field back when you were probably poppin pimples before the prom. You may be older, but judging by your post, I am guessing not.

wait until you graduate and enter the hospitals and patients ask "so are you a real dr?"

.

So, as an MSI you have experienced this here in Michigan eh?

 

[OSUdoc08]

My innocence? I've been working in hospitals, physicians offices, and urgent cares for 7 years, and I have many close friends that are both MD's and DO's.. I know a thing or two, and there is little to no stigma. Just because you are a first year and I am not yet does not make you an expert. Like I told someone else, I was working in the medical field back when you were probably poppin pimples before the prom. You may be older, but judging by your post, I am guessing not.




So, as an MSI you have experienced this here in Michigan eh?

Isn't stigma something to do with your eyes?








oh that's astigmatism.....nevermind.....

 

[medic170]

Isn't stigma something to do with your eyes?








oh that's astigmatism.....nevermind.....

LOL

 

[Evilcaterpillar]

The "if it's too bad drop out" statement is pretty ignorant!! This person makes good observation about the DO profession. This are the same problems that early DO's got when they tried to start the profession, and they've been continuing throughout the DO"s history. What this person is saying is absolutely true. Future DO's Listen up and question. Don't be sheep.

 

[Ypo.]

no stigma, eh? i'm tossing my head back and laughing my a$$ off. your innocence is baffling! i'm a first year at your beloved MSUCOM... and i can tell you if you want to see stigma, wait until you meet your MSUCHM classmates. you won't even have to go very far. and then of course, wait until you graduate and enter the hospitals and patients ask "so are you a real dr?"

there is stigma and there will always be stigma. the DO route is the harder path to walk.

I'm truly sorry you encounter such negativity from your classmates. I hate to say this, but is it possible that you have a chip on your shoulder and it affects the way people relate to you?

I'm sorry, but I just interviewed at CHM (and was accepted), and I was also accepted at COM. I have met quite a few COM students in your class who all say there is no such anymousity between the schools, and in fact are friends with CHM students. My mother is a CHM graduate who refers her patients to DOs all the time. It is hard to keep discriminating and stereotyping against people who you spend time with in such close proximity and with whom you share so many of your classes.

 

[medic170]

The "if it's too bad drop out" statement is pretty ignorant!! This person makes good observation about the DO profession. This are the same problems that early DO's got when they tried to start the profession, and they've been continuing throughout the DO"s history. What this person is saying is absolutely true. Future DO's Listen up and question. Don't be sheep.

Prove to us that "everything this person is saying is absolutely true". We can't disagree? If we do we are sheep? Please lead us to the right path, oh shephard!

 

[daveyboy]

Prove to us that "everything this person is saying is absolutely true". We can't disagree? If we do we are sheep? Please lead us to the right path, oh shephard!

Obviously, nobody here is acting like sheep.

The truth is, unfortunately, that choosing the DO path will very likely attract a few negative comments from some people. Not everyone is well equipped to deal with that kind of attack, and it can feel pretty bad. It takes an exceptionally mature person to just shrug off that sort of thing.
Unfortunately, chronic stress does not foster maturity. Chronic stress fosters anxiety, mean spiritedness, and regression towards immaturity. Medical school is about as stressful as an environment can be, and tends to make people a bit edgy. I can see how hearing, or percieving, any type of slight about my degree could get blown out of proportion on a bad day.
So, lets not condemn those that are feeling frustrated. They aren't negative, they don't have a chip on their shoulder, and they certainly aren't trying to be jerks. They are normal people who are upset because they feel like something they have worked extremely hard for is being slighted, and they are also our colleagues and deserve some support.

In undergrad/premed we learn that good scores on tests earn us rewards and status. Over and over again it is reinforced that if you do well you are good. A large percentage of those people have their self-esteem and personal identity centered in becoming a doctor. This isn't a healthy outlook, but it is typical, and it is so very difficult to unlearn. It is also a totally false premise.
CowboyDO pointed out that it is a rather sad thing when somebody associates their worth as a person with what they do for a living. This is true, and it is the root of what is happening when another med student or physician tries to denegrate somebody who is a DO student or physician. The whole purpose of that action is to elevate an insecure ego by attacking a percieved weakness in another.
If one stops to think about it, this is a totally absurd concept. It is the equivalent of saying, "Ha ha, I probably may have a higher MCAT or higher marks in undergrad", and it holds little weight in the real world. It really isn't worth responding to or getting upset over, as tough as that may be sometimes.

 

[LovelyRita]

So, lets not condemn those that are feeling frustrated. They aren't negative, they don't have a chip on their shoulder, and they certainly aren't trying to be jerks. They are normal people who are upset because they feel like something they have worked extremely hard for is being slighted, and they are also our colleagues and deserve some support.

Right on. There are problems within the structure of osteopathic education. Swatting down those that recognize them will only perpetuate the problems (i.e. students to residency spots ratio). Labeling them as whiners is counterproductive. I think that people shouldn't be afraid of new ideas. Even by acknowledging that these new ideas posess a point (whether or not you agree), rather than shooting them down, will be helpful.

For those quick to get grouchy with the idea-makers, can you HONESTLY say that the osteopathic education system is a well-oiled machine?

And that there should be no effort made toward making it better? Ever heard of quality assurance? Or are we checking our QA at the door when we send in that matriculation fee?

 

[BamaAlum]

Right on. There are problems within the structure of osteopathic education. Swatting down those that recognize them will only perpetuate the problems (i.e. students to residency spots ratio). Labeling them as whiners is counterproductive. I think that people shouldn't be afraid of new ideas. Even by acknowledging that these new ideas posess a point (whether or not you agree), rather than shooting them down, will be helpful.

For those quick to get grouchy with the idea-makers, can you HONESTLY say that the osteopathic education system is a well-oiled machine?

And that there should be no effort made toward making it better? Ever heard of quality assurance? Or are we checking our QA at the door when we send in that matriculation fee?

Mary, where you been? They are crucifiying me in another thread for suggesting we need more research into OMM.

 

[LovelyRita]

Mary, where you been? They are crucifiying me in another thread for suggesting we need more research into OMM.

Show mommy who those bad people are. I won't let them hurt you.

 

[LovelyRita]

On second thought, Bama, you really dug yourself a grave. I'm afraid I can't help, sorry.

 

[BamaAlum]

On second thought, Bama, you really dug yourself a grave. I'm afraid I can't help, sorry.

That's okay. It's my fault. I let myself be antagonized. It is never a good idea to mentally joust with an unarmed combatant.

 

[bones]

Right on. There are problems within the structure of osteopathic education. Swatting down those that recognize them will only perpetuate the problems (i.e. students to residency spots ratio). Labeling them as whiners is counterproductive. I think that people shouldn't be afraid of new ideas. Even by acknowledging that these new ideas posess a point (whether or not you agree), rather than shooting them down, will be helpful.

For those quick to get grouchy with the idea-makers, can you HONESTLY say that the osteopathic education system is a well-oiled machine?

And that there should be no effort made toward making it better? Ever heard of quality assurance? Or are we checking our QA at the door when we send in that matriculation fee?

Amen sister.
only problem is... how do we do this? if we swing more allopathic we have no reason be exit. We might as well be MD schools already. body/mind/spirit? treat patients holistically? OMM integration? give me a break. its all a lipservice at most DO schools. The OMM that is taught at most DO schools looks like chiropractic too- its a joke. no wonder most people are skeptical at the claims made. Its a different story when you work with the people who actually can do these things, and then learn to treat that way yourself. Its an entirely different art.

Just memorizing techniques rather than principles a big waste of time. yes, many schools also teach you to treat symptoms rather than causes (bah...). thus... to put more hours into OMM with inadequate faculty for labs and poor basic science integration/ functional anatomy... it would just be to memorize more techniques and thus (you got it) a waste of everyones time. I suspect we would need to rebuild the curriculum from the ground up to make a true osteopathic school.

Hmm wouldnt it be great to see a REAL osteopathic DO school- and one with the academic innovation to land in the top 10 medical schools? Perhaps one day with the right leadership...

 

[bones]

That's okay. It's my fault. I let myself be antagonized. It is never a good idea to mentally joust with an unarmed combatant.

HA Bama I wouldnt give you a hard time if you took the time to actually read what i was saying. I am actually a rational creature with a ton of research experience myself at a few of the most respected institutions in the country... but there is a time and a place to ***** yourself to the research world. No doubt we need better and more OMM research, but we need an osteopathic education that works even more. I think that I am also in a very different place than most DO students with my OMM training so I see the OMM debate quite differently than most.

 

[BamaAlum]

HA Bama I wouldnt give you a hard time if you took the time to actually read what i was saying. I am actually a rational creature with a ton of research experience myself at a few of the most respected institutions in the country... but there is a time and a place to ***** yourself to the research world. No doubt we need better and more OMM research, but we need an osteopathic education that works even more. I think that I am also in a very different place than most DO students with my OMM training so I see the OMM debate quite differently than most.

I read what you posted. We obviously aren't going to see eye to eye on this. Philosophical differences, I suppose. I spent nearly 3 years doing basic science research and may do even more in the future, so I don't think it is whoring myself to the research world. I confess I am geared more towards the basic science end of medicine, so it is hard for me to fully embrace something that is very subjective. Like I said, I know that a lot of it works I just wish we knew how and why. No hard feelings though.

 

[daveyboy]

no, i dont dig. smug.... hmmm.. so you are saying that the DOlympics would qualify me?....sigh

i work 60+ hrs a week, most of the time alone, making million dollar decisions for a company in a 50000 dollar salaried position. i catch other ppls mistakes and submit for final approval to the city or customer. if im wrong, ppl can die, and/or the company lose a lot of money.. i dont hate my job, it is just not at all rewarding. i do get to go to cool places, and i have a lot of control over what i do... but...

this is stress....

after i get off of work and leave my lovely job i come home and study study study study study. im taking 2 classes in person and 2 online. they are not medical school caliber classes, but those coupled with working is tough. i guess studying has kinda taken over since my gf turned fiance of 4 yrs left me because she thought that "everyone who goes to that DO school gets divorced." yea im not asking for your pity here though...

i take some modest amount of pride in the fact that i chose to become a DO and will be attending medical school soon. but not even my dad completely understands what a DO vs a MD is yet. it doesnt really bother me, i just know that this is something that will be a bit of a struggle with him. just like i strongly believe Jesus Christ is God, and he doesnt. its a struggle, but not something that will make me want to give up in believing in something.

ive busted my butt in everything i do. to me, DO is the best route FOR ME and when my own dad doesnt get it, then yea i have a right to say MDs get stuff handed to them.

Sorry about the girlfriend, man. I know how that is. It is the worst kind of pain, for sure.

I don't doubt that your job is stressful, and I applaud the fact that you are taking classes. You should be proud that you were accepted to medical school, and you should be proud that you are going to be a DO. Really.

I do think you are taking a leap in logic when you say that MD students get things handed to them, etc. There are no medical schools anywhere that do that. No matter what letters they give out in the end, it is a very tough gig.

 

[Ypo.]

dood
they get the recognition handed to them. easy... a DO has to work for it.... plain and simple...

Yeah, but you have to ask yourself why do you want to be a doctor? We all know that as a DO, you get all the same responsibilities, training, and rights of an MD-you get to do the job you felt called to do, you are a doctor.
The recognition thing is all ego. I'm not saying thats not important, but its not the most important thing, and the more you focus on it, the unhappier you will get.

Sure, its nice to have the so-called "automatic name-recognition" that comes with being an MD, but most patients don't pay attention to those letters anyway. I had a primary care physician who was a DO and I didn't even know it, and I was a premedical student.

I can't believe so many people are hung up on this

 

[Ypo.]

im not hung up on it... all i said is MDs get the name recognition handed to them whereas DOs have to work for it more. then davey says no theydont, and then i say yea they do, and then you say im all hung up about it because ppl ask about DOs or w/e ... gimme a break ppl... i dont care that MDs get things handed to them like that, but to deny they do is dumb. i would like to see a world where ppl knew what MDs AND DOs were but this world is ok too....

I didn't specifically say that you were hung up on name recognition, although you do seem like you are pretty bummed about it. I meant you no offense. Your patients will respect you as a doctor, if they don't, then they will most likely choose to see another doctor. So, why the heck should you care about what other people think besides your patients, as long as it doesn't affect you professionally? I maintain that its all ego-trip.

What do MDs get "handed" to them that DOs don't get "handed" as well? The only difference I see is that sometimes DOs have to take the USMLE to get into the residency program they want.

Oh well, nevermind. I didn't mean to annoy you, I just don't see your point. But you don't see mine either. 'salright

 

[Ypo.]

what is the big deal???

My point exactly-so maybe we aren't really in disagreement. There isn't a big deal, because its all ego- It is what you make out of it.

Your comment that MDs get things "handed" to them is what threw me and others off. MDs work for what they get, the same way that DOs do. Allopathic schools worked for the respect and name recognition,and continue to do so, just as DO schools continue to do.

An MD student worked hard to get into their school. They didn't get anything "handed" to them. I understand the frustration of the general public not understanding what a DO is, but if you aren't comfortable explaining what the letters DO mean, or it irritates you, you are in for a long haul.

 

[Ypo.]

the recognition is not ego... it is "what is a DO? is that like a chiropractor??" vs "oh you are an MD, i know what that is"

not ego... its England "we have DOs here, but they dont know anything about medicine so we are not going to give you any license either" vs "oh you are an MD, well take our tests, maybe some extra residency years and maybe we will license you"

not ego... its Doctors without borders "we dont recognise DOs, if you want to join us, become an MD, FP specialty prefered" vs "ur an MD, well if you are a fp you cn join up.."

not ego... its the name recognition....

What's so hard about saying "a DO gets the same training as an MD, with additional training in OMM?"

I think you are wrong about Doctors without Borders. Last I checked they do accept DOs.

Look, you have the right to be frustrated. But things are getting better and will continue to do so. We have to continue to work for international recognition.

 

[cooldreams]

What's so hard about saying "a DO gets the same training as an MD, with additional training in OMM?"

I think you are wrong about Doctors without Borders. Last I checked they do accept DOs.

Look, you have the right to be frustrated. But things are getting better and will continue to do so. We have to continue to work for international recognition.

hey yea, i guess you are right:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95337&highlight=doctors+borders+DOs

i thought i had read somewhere that they didnt... hmm... oh well this is good though... very good actually... im happy... yay...



now we just gotta work on the usa to get the word out eh?? hehe

 

[daveyboy]

im not hung up on it... all i said is MDs get the name recognition handed to them whereas DOs have to work for it more. then davey says no theydont, and then i say yea they do, and then you say im all hung up about it because ppl ask about DOs or w/e ... gimme a break ppl... i dont care that MDs get things handed to them like that, but to deny they do is dumb. i would like to see a world where ppl knew what MDs AND DOs were but this world is ok too....

As a student you get some recognition. My Mom is real proud of me and tells all her friends. It is cool to go home on the holidays and have old friends give me recognition. It is a nice ego boost that accounts for maybe 2 hours of my life if you add it all up. Unfortunately it has never helped me on a test, has never made my stress levels go down, and it has never motivated me to study when I was tired.

My father is an MD, he went to a 1st tier school that had two suicides in a class of 77. He trained in a brutal OB/Gyn program in the days when anything less than 120 hrs/wk was for sissies. He was not handed any type of recognition, nor were the DO and FMG residents that worked with him.

When we talk about medicine it is with mutual respect, b/c he has been through what I am going through. He doesn't care that I am a DO student, and I don't care that he is an MD. It doesn't even factor into the equation. The same can be said for my friends from pre-med that went the allopathic route.

I don't know if you are hung up on this recognition thing or not, but I do urge to take what the smurf says to heart. The only recognition you really need is your own.

 

[bones]

the recognition is not ego... it is "what is a DO? is that like a chiropractor??" vs "oh you are an MD, i know what that is"

not ego... its England "we have DOs here, but they dont know anything about medicine so we are not going to give you any license either" vs "oh you are an MD, well take our tests, maybe some extra residency years and maybe we will license you"

not ego... its Doctors without borders "we dont recognise DOs, if you want to join us, become an MD, FP specialty prefered" vs "ur an MD, well if you are a fp you cn join up.."

not ego... its the name recognition....

these are all things i plan on fighting in the future as i think a DO would be more qualified for DWB since they are more likely to have a very well rounded medical education and the omt is a huge plus in 3rd world countries where a lack of medicine persists... things are not easy, but nothing worth doing ever was... life is no walk in the park for MDs, but it is harder for DOs in some cases...

its odd... why do u guys try to ignore this or to say it doesnt exist? the first step to solving a problem is to state the problem and understand it...

Hey there,

i understand the concern- however you have little to fear. most of the flaming you'll get will be either from on here, or maybe from family and friends who want to give you a hard time. profesionally... no.

DO's in hospitals- your name badge says medical student... nobody even knows. Nobody cares. There is just too much work to do to worry about stuff like that. Outpatient, again- nobody cares.. except for the people who seek out DO's and then are dissapointed if you dont know OMT.

the only place where there is still red tape is internationally... and I do believe DWB takes DO's, but our practice rights are limited in certain countries (maybe half of them). you will have to check on a coutry-by-country basis... but most of the underserved places in the world welcome DO's. Some academic hospital programs internationally will give you an honorary MD for working or teaching there for ~6 months so as to gain independent practice rights in their country.

so... to make a long story short- dont worry about it. focus on making the most of your education, learning the material, mastering OMM outside of class, and making time for friends, family, booze, exercise or whatever else keeps you sane.

be well
michael

 

[Elysium]

Believe me, a lot of this worry about the stigma against DOs is pre-med bullsh1t. Once you actually start school (and never undermine the difference between being an undergrad and being a med student. I too worked full time and took difficult upper level science classes. My dad is a doctor, my boyfriend is a third year, I've talked to countless med students. I had NO idea what med school was like until I actually started it. It's nothing you can really understand until you get there and truly get your ass kicked around. I'm not trying to come across as superior or anything - just acknowledging the difference. It's a shock, man, trust me). Once you get in school and especially when you get out in practice all these things really start to fade away. In clinical practice there are very few appreciable differences between MDs and DOs (part of what we're all talking about in this thread) and like a lot of other people have said, patients aren't gonna know the difference unless you do OMM on them. Don't worry about your dad (although I suspect this business of him not understanding what a DO is is just the beginning of your conflict with him), he will just think of you as a medical student, which you will be. My dad is an MD (had a very similiar experience as Daveyboy's) and he thinks of me as a future collegue. My father and I have had many discussions about school and there is really no major differences in our schooling (except for the albatross that is OMM ). Eventually you won't have the time or energy to care after you start scraping adipose tissue off every conceivable stucture (including the heart!) and you're memorizing where every friggin' sulci in the brain is located. Who cares who's an MD or DO? Everyone goes through the same hell.

Enjoy!

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

My Ph.D. Bio professor once said the currency in science is "recognition." I am certain what he meant was scientists who live off of grants and teaching salaries are more concerned about the recognition they receive for thier work in the lab...their contributions to the scientific community.

As far as physicians are concerned...our currency is $$$ and the pride of a job well-done. And considering that physicians are highly-trained and in high demand who cares what "instant recognition" comes with the territory? For crying out loud, recognition won't help you on the 1st when that $7000 mortgage payment is due....but your training will.

I can't even believe this is an argument....well, I can, but it shouldn't be.

 

[hotlikebutter]

if you want true recognition, get a PhD! who are you joking? in this day and age a PhD can get you more points than any medical degree and you know it. the PhD programs in the sciences are way harder to get than MD or DO. Any MD/PhD student will tell you that.

someone said, dont know if it was OP, "as an MD student you get handed recognition and DO students have to work harder for it" maybe this is why DO's are appealing to so many patients. Lab coat and badge have no bearing on how hard you work! So who cares, work harder, your patients will like you better for it. Also, never question why you work harder than everyone else, its just the way you are, at least thats just the way I am.

 

[Shinken]

It's funny how only osteopathic students regret going to DO school once they find out about how uncertain science can be. What? OMT works but we're not quite sure why? NOOOOO! I WANT TO BE AN MD!!!! AHHHHH!

How come allopathic students never regret going to MD school? Just to pick on antidepressants (which are heavily prescribed by MDs and DOs)...check this out:

From the Prozac website: http://www.prozac.com/how_prozac/how_it_works.jsp?reqNavId=2.2

"Depression is not fully understood, but a growing amount of evidence supports the view that people with depression have an imbalance of the brain's neurotransmitters, ..... Many scientists believe that an imbalance in serotonin, one of these neurotransmitters, may be an important factor in the development and severity of depression.

PROZAC may help to correct this imbalance by increasing the brain's own supply of serotonin....

While PROZAC cannot be said to "cure" depression, it does help to control the symptoms of depression, allowing many people with depression to feel better and return to normal functioning."

How's that? "...not fully understood..." "...scientists believe..." "...may be an important factor..." "Prozac may help..." "...cannot be said to cure depression, but helps control the symptoms..." (treating symptoms and not people? Sorry, couldn't help throwing that in there). Sounds like the science behind depression and the science behind the treatment is just a bunch of "may" "perhaps" "believe" (sounds like OMT?)

How about this little gem from the Zoloft website: http://www.zoloft.com/index.asp?pageid=44

"Although the way Zoloft works for depression, panic disorder, OCD, and PTSD is not completely understood...."

What? Prescribing something that seems to work in studies but that doesn't have a known mechanism of action? QUACKS!!!!! Oh, wait...those are MDs and not DOs. Never mind.

When an MD uses therapy that's not understood, to treat disorders that aren't understood, it's OK because a drug company-sponsored study shows the drug "may work."

When a DO uses therapy that's not understood (OMT) to treat disorders that aren't understood (somatic dysfunction), it's quackery and people regret going to DO school.

Double standard? That's the only thing that's worthy of regret.

The more you read your books (particularly neuroscience, immunology and plenty of physiology concepts) you realize most of the "science" in medicine is based on "perhaps" "evidence seems to point to" "may" "it's agreed that". Very few things are certain. MDs seem to handle this uncertainty very well. DOs start to whine and regret, especially when the uncertainty comes from OMM.

 

[bones]

It's funny how only osteopathic students regret going to DO school once they find out about how uncertain science can be. What? OMT works but we're not quite sure why? NOOOOO! I WANT TO BE AN MD!!!! AHHHHH!