(Potential) National Embargo on Away Rotations

[efle]

Maybe we can learn something from the Drexel residency shutdown? They essentially dispersed the homeless residents all over the country and absorbed them into existing programs, right. Maybe we could do something similar, have any homeless MS4s with unfilled graduation requirements join the nearest teaching hospitals?

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[Ho0v-man]

I think once there's a decline in numbers, those without home programs should get to finish out their rotations at ONE hospital. Auditions are too risky this year, but I agree that rising 4s need rotations or else we'll have an entire class of doctors who haven't been in a hospital for 14 months before intern year.

I agree with this. We can’t have M4s applying without having ever rotated in their desired field. Maybe VSAS could put some check in place where it allocates you to the closest rotation that accepts your app and then that’s all you get. Then programs are essentially forced to deal with taking people who’ve had 1-2 rotations in the field bc that’s what everyone has.

I honestly hope this leads to some kind of Flexner type reform for DO schools bc I don’t know what’s going to happen when I go back. My DSME has already told me there’s not enough room for me once the new third years show up.

 

[Iz_FtB]

If DO students are going to be upset about any thing, it should be about how their schools are short changing their education. Seems like these schools are getting by offering the minimum to their students and punting responsibility for the rest. When outside circumstances change, we see now what the students are left with.

 

[sunshinefl]

If DO students are going to be upset about any thing, it should be about how their schools are short changing their education. Seems like these schools are getting by offering the minimum to their students and punting responsibility for the rest. When outside circumstances change, we see now what the students are left with.

There are also many MDs in my state without their own hospital. They have “affiliations” for rotations just like we do, some at the same hospitals.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

3 things:

VSAS will not close completely in order to keep your money. They will keep a few programs on their website so they can say see we have Harvard neurosurg and We’re not refunding.

what Limitations would there be to get COVID titers like all the other immunizations we get in order to audition

how could we possibly graduate and confer any benefit if we have no rotations at all for 4th year and have not seen a pt. in over a year

 

[Chibucks15]

^There is no way in hell we don't get back to rotations in over a year. We will most definitely still have exposure risks when we do go back. My guess is the rest of this school year is shot but then itll start back up in June/July in some places, maybe August in NYC, etc. There is no utility in doomsday predictions when nobody knows what the situation will be like in 3 weeks much less 5 months cmon now

 

[getfat]

What am I missing? Where are you doing rotations 3rd year? Can't they send you back to some of those sites?

Maybe if your rotations were at a clinic w/ a specific preceptors. But my rotations were at a teaching hospital that just had affiliations. So we were essentially doing away rotations at a site for all of third year.

On top of that we've got 3rd years coming to our sites as well.

 

[Espressso]

^There is no way in hell we don't get back to rotations in over a year. We will most definitely still have exposure risks when we do go back. My guess is the rest of this school year is shot but then itll start back up in June/July in some places, maybe August in NYC, etc. There is no utility in doomsday predictions when nobody knows what the situation will be like in 3 weeks much less 5 months cmon now

Yeah, I agree with this. The risk will be there for the next 2-3 years. I think once places hit their peak and start coming down rotations will be able to continue, even auditions and aways.

 

[libertyyne]

Maybe if your rotations were at a clinic w/ a specific preceptors. But my rotations were at a teaching hospital that just had affiliations. So we were essentially doing away rotations at a site for all of third year.

On top of that we've got 3rd years coming to our sites as well.

Im not sure how that is any different, you could essentially continue to do rotations at that same teaching hospital and affiliates.

Our teaching hospital has canceled our rotations until june and has just started overriding number of students that can attend rotations starting june. We are also going to get an influx of m3s.
Nothing is going to be optimal this year, but its going to be that way for everyone.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Im not sure how that is any different, you could essentially continue to do rotations at that same teaching hospital and affiliates.

Our teaching hospital has canceled our rotations until june and has just started overriding number of students that can attend rotations starting june. We are also going to get an influx of m3s.
Nothing is going to be optimal this year, but its going to be that way for everyone.

$$$$$$$$$ thats why its different for 4th year. Not defending it, but its true

 

[getfat]

Our teaching hospital has canceled our rotations until june and has just started overriding number of students that can attend rotations starting june. We are also going to get an influx of m3s.

If that happened it would be ideal. I just don't see it happening for most 4th year DO students. We are mostly "just visitors" at a lot of these hospitals.

 

[libertyyne]

If that happened it would be ideal. I just don't see it happening for most 4th year DO students. We are mostly "just visitors" at a lot of these hospitals.

Im not sure why your school couldnt arrange that with the hospitals you rotate at. It is in the schools best interest to see you graduate. I am unsure why they wouldnt work with hospital systems to get you rotations.

 

[Mass Effect]

3 things:

VSAS will not close completely in order to keep your money. They will keep a few programs on their website so they can say see we have Harvard neurosurg and We’re not refunding.

what Limitations would there be to get COVID titers like all the other immunizations we get in order to audition

how could we possibly graduate and confer any benefit if we have no rotations at all for 4th year and have not seen a pt. in over a year

Realistically, aways would be a bad idea this year and likely won't happen. In terms of COVID titers, I think that's a horrible way to allow aways. It's specifically given an edge to those who've had COVID while those without it get pushed to the bottom. I don't see anyone - students or schools - standing for such an unfair system.

This whole thing sucks, but the only way to do this is to cancel aways for everyone OR allow aways for everyone. I don't see the latter working out, but if some people get aways and others don't, it would be incredibly discriminatory.

 

[getfat]

Im not sure why your school couldnt arrange that with the hospitals you rotate at. It is in the schools best interest to see you graduate. I am unsure why they wouldnt work with hospital systems to get you rotations.

I might be wrong but i believe @Giovanotto said it best earlier something like 4th year you will wonder what you are paying tuition for. Personally, I'm just finishing 3rd year and there are more than multiple scenarios regarding scheduling rotations where the onus was on me to figure it out. It wasn't a small thing. It was I wouldn't graduate on time if I didn't figure it out. This isn't something unique to my school and personally I feel I had it better than some other students.

My school isn't unique where they allow us to "schedule 4th year ourselves". This has pros and cons. If something like this happens then its on us to figure out a solution.

I don't see my DO school pushing hospitals to take students because the patient always comes first before our education. If they cancel away rotations then I don't see us being able to "return" because we were basically doing away rotations there too.

 

[libertyyne]

I might be wrong but i believe @Giovanotto said it best earlier something like 4th year you will wonder what you are paying tuition for. Personally, I'm just finishing 3rd year and there are more than multiple scenarios regarding scheduling rotations where the onus was on me to figure it out. It wasn't a small thing. It was I wouldn't graduate on time if I didn't figure it out. This isn't something unique to my school and personally I feel I had it better than some other students.

My school isn't unique where they allow us to "schedule 4th year ourselves". This has pros and cons. If something like this happens then its on us to figure out a solution.

I don't see my DO school pushing hospitals to take students because the patient always comes first before our education. If they cancel away rotations then I don't see us being able to "return" because we were basically doing away rotations there too.

Even at my MD school I have to schedule all of 4th year. We do get preference at our home institutions for scheduling and get to schedule before vas’s opens.
but you do have core rotation sites that the school has some agreement with, even if they are not academic institutions. So I’m still confused as to why you can’t get rotations at those core sites.
yes it won’t be ideal since some of those sites do not have residency programs. But it would still be preferable to just completing aquafier modules.

 

[ritts]

Realistically, aways would be a bad idea this year and likely won't happen. In terms of COVID titers, I think that's a horrible way to allow aways. It's specifically given an edge to those who've had COVID while those without it get pushed to the bottom. I don't see anyone - students or schools - standing for such an unfair system.

This whole thing sucks, but the only way to do this is to cancel aways for everyone OR allow aways for everyone. I don't see the latter working out, but if some people get aways and others don't, it would be incredibly discriminatory.

Unfairness is judging a student by their medical school and not by merit. By your logic, VSAS is always discriminatory- some people apply every year and don't get any. Those at lower tier medical schools get shafted by this unless aways continue. It should be under the discretion of the host institution to allow visiting students. Removing away rotations completely does not make it a level playing field by any means

 

[getfat]

We do get preference at our home institutions for scheduling and get to schedule before vas’s opens.

Personally, I don't get that and I don't see a lot of other DO students getting that either.

you do have core rotation sites that the school has some agreement with,

The Agreement is for third year medical students. Not 4th year medical students. Tried to schedule an "audition" elective w/ my hospital in June so I could prepare myself for real auditions later down the road. Hospital is not on VSAS but had to apply and fill out a form like every other outside applicant. Did not get chosen for the rotation.

I don't think I'm the only person facing this type of obstacle.

 

[libertyyne]

Personally, I don't get that and I don't see a lot of other DO students getting that either.



The Agreement is for third year medical students. Not 4th year medical students. Tried to schedule an "audition" elective w/ my hospital in June so I could prepare myself for real auditions later down the road. Hospital is not on VSAS but had to apply and fill out a form like every other outside applicant. Did not get chosen for the rotation.

I don't think I'm the only person facing this type of obstacle.

I mean in a world where other students are not going to come to those institutions, its not like they will be able to fill their 4th year slots anyway. I get that you havent gotten preference in the past, but in a world where aways arent occuring there has to be some wiggle room at those places to take your schools students.

 

[Doggeronie]

Well, I sure am glad I chose to go a to med school owned by a large health system. So far it's looking like they're planning on making sure we get home rotations in 4th year.

 

[Chibucks15]

Well, I sure am glad I chose to go a to med school owned by a large health system. So far it's looking like they're planning on making sure we get home rotations in 4th year.

Sweet bro

 

[getfat]

I mean in a world where other students are not going to come to those institutions, its not like they will be able to fill their 4th year slots anyway. I get that you havent gotten preference in the past, but in a world where aways arent occuring there has to be some wiggle room at those places to take your schools students.

We will see its all speculation at this point.

I don't think I'm the only student where the school has not idea what happening. As of right now they have suggested all students take a vacation/study month for July hoping that something gets figured out by then. It just doesn't feel like our schools are going to push these hospitals w/ just "affiliations" to take 4th year students.

My site didn't expect any students to return to their site for 4th year. Most of us complete our rotations closer to home as "away rotations". I don't expect anybody to take responsibility for our education especially overburdened hospitals dealing with this COVID nonsense.

I can only imagine what IMG/FMGs are going through in this.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Even at my MD school I have to schedule all of 4th year. We do get preference at our home institutions for scheduling and get to schedule before vas’s opens.
but you do have core rotation sites that the school has some agreement with, even if they are not academic institutions. So I’m still confused as to why you can’t get rotations at those core sites.
yes it won’t be ideal since some of those sites do not have residency programs. But it would still be preferable to just completing aquafier modules.

So at least at my school it goes something like this: the school pays each rotation site something modest for third year (~$500/month/student). But they don’t usually pay our rotation sites for fourth year. So if we want to do rotations at our third year sites, we might have to pay the hospital. Now at my site they’ll just take us as long as the program doesn’t have a third years and auditioners already, but other sites don’t get so much leniency.

Now to preempt the logical response of “Why wouldn’t your school just nut up and pay the very small fee to allow you to graduate on time?” I shall respond “LOL.”

 

[Mass Effect]

Unfairness is judging a student by their medical school and not by merit. By your logic, VSAS is always discriminatory- some people apply every year and don't get any. Those at lower tier medical schools get shafted by this unless aways continue. It should be under the discretion of the host institution to allow visiting students. Removing away rotations completely does not make it a level playing field by any means

That comparison is ridiculous. Everyone has a fair shot at applying through VSAS and programs decide who rotates and who doesn't. Nothing discriminatory about it. To suggest that you have to have had COVID in order to rotate is not even remotely similar. One's application status should not be dependent on whether or not they've had a potentially fatal disease and something tells me that if you were the one who hadn't had COVID, you'd argue the same.

 

[Espressso]

Just a thought after scrolling Twitter just now.. There's some talks about opening up elective procedures again at hospitals across the country in the coming weeks/months. I think this could be a good proxy to see how hospitals will/won't have students on rotations/aways. Hospitals that start opening up their non-COVID capabilities can probably handle student rotations.

@Mass Effect question for you: if we're about 2-3 years away from a vaccine and a year away from adequate treatment, which seems to be the general consensus I've read, would you think we would cancel away rotations for more than one year? By your logic of cancelling away rotations for the entire year, added to the high probability that as a society, we'll be dealing with clusters of COVID on/off until a vaccine is widely available, I don't see how you have any away rotations (and arguably regular rotations) even after a full year of cancelled away rotations.

Or we get to a point where the rise and inflection points have been hit, and now it's just a matter of test/trace/isolate and we reopen both society and the economy, as well as med ed.

 

[Mass Effect]

Just a thought after scrolling Twitter just now.. There's some talks about opening up elective procedures again at hospitals across the country in the coming weeks/months. I think this could be a good proxy to see how hospitals will/won't have students on rotations/aways. Hospitals that start opening up their non-COVID capabilities can probably handle student rotations.

@Mass Effect question for you: if we're about 2-3 years away from a vaccine and a year away from adequate treatment, which seems to be the general consensus I've read, would you think we would cancel away rotations for more than one year? By your logic of cancelling away rotations for the entire year, added to the high probability that as a society, we'll be dealing with clusters of COVID on/off until a vaccine is widely available, I don't see how you have any away rotations (and arguably regular rotations) even after a full year of cancelled away rotations.

Or we get to a point where the rise and inflection points have been hit, and now it's just a matter of test/trace/isolate and we reopen both society and the economy, as well as med ed.

You and I are talking about two different issues. It's not about the hospitals capability to have away rotations to me. Rather, it's about all the traveling and hop-scotching from hospital to hospital, basically acting as vectors and spreading the virus all over the country, specifically in hospitals. With a vaccine and/or decent treatment options to prevent serious complications and/or herd immunity (which may be attainable by summer 2021), I'd then advocate for re-opening aways. But not before then. I think every rising MS 4 this year should get to choose one hospital in which to complete all MS 4 rotations and that should be the hospital he/she goes to for the year. I think it should be up to schools to facilitate this.

 

[order66.exe]

Once again, this is how DO students get their 4th year rotations done. I’m sorry, but some concessions will have to be made. The all or nothing route simply will not work, at least for us and if there are MD programs without home hospitals.

I’m beating a dead horse replying to this thread, it serves zero purpose other than to get my heart rate up, but I sure hope those making the ultimate decisions allow for leniency for those of us who need it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

DO students need to point the finger at your own schools and accrediting agencies. Why do your schools not have home programs and rotations? Why do so few DO programs have their own GME? Why does a medical school have to rely on others to educate their fourth year students?

 

[libertyyne]

So if they do end up canceling aways the most negatively impacted will fall into the following categories:
1. People applying to competitive specialties without home programs. These people were disadvantaged anyway.
2. Borderline applicants applying to more competitive specialties hoping their work ethic or personalities could give them a boost.
3. Late deciders of competitive specialties.
4. People with specific geographic preferences that were hoping away rotations would help secure positions.
5. People with little research in their decided competitive specialties.
6. People applying to small specialties where aways were important aspect of the application.
7. IMG students who need the aways to get a foot in the door.
8. People applying to programs above their tier of school.

People with realistically little impact on their applications. (this is a majority of applicants)
1.People applying IM, FM or other specialties where aways were not a deacto part of the application.

 

[Ho0v-man]

DO students need to point the finger at your own schools and accrediting agencies. Why do your schools not have home programs and rotations? Why do so few DO programs have their own GME? Why does a medical school have to rely on others to educate their fourth year students?

Exactly. But probably 95%+ didn’t realize this was what happens until half way through third year. And by the time we find out, we just accept it as yet another piece of BS we have to work around. It’s hard for us to have a contingency plan for an unprecedented viral apocalypse screwing us out of the way we get around the way our school screws us when we didn’t know about the first way we got screwed lol. It’s a mess, just like that sentence.

 

[Scrubs101]

So if they do end up canceling aways the most negatively impacted will fall into the following categories:
1. People applying to competitive specialties without home programs. These people were disadvantaged anyway.
2. Borderline applicants applying to more competitive specialties hoping their work ethic or personalities could give them a boost.
3. Late deciders of competitive specialties.
4. People with specific geographic preferences that were hoping away rotations would help secure positions.
5. People with little research in their decided competitive specialties.
6. People applying to small specialties where aways were important aspect of the application.
7. IMG students who need the aways to get a foot in the door.
8. People applying to programs above their tier of school.

People with realistically little impact on their applications. (this is a majority of applicants)
1.People applying IM, FM or other specialties where aways were not a deacto part of the application.

9. People applying to fields they've never rotated in

 

[You shall know the Truth]

DO students need to point the finger at your own schools and accrediting agencies. Why do your schools not have home programs and rotations? Why do so few DO programs have their own GME? Why does a medical school have to rely on others to educate their fourth year students?

This is a vailed point, I would have hoped that the merger forced DO schools to develop their own GME

 

[ritts]

That comparison is ridiculous. Everyone has a fair shot at applying through VSAS and programs decide who rotates and who doesn't. Nothing discriminatory about it. To suggest that you have to have had COVID in order to rotate is not even remotely similar. One's application status should not be dependent on whether or not they've had a potentially fatal disease and something tells me that if you were the one who hadn't had COVID, you'd argue the same.

You misinterpreted my post. I never suggested that those who have had COVID should be able to do away rotations; you suggested that. I was arguing my opinion: that it should be up to the host institutions if they want to take students

 

[SurgDoc95]

DO students need to point the finger at your own schools and accrediting agencies. Why do your schools not have home programs and rotations? Why do so few DO programs have their own GME? Why does a medical school have to rely on others to educate their fourth year students?

Okay? This doesn't help those of us who are about to be 4th years and potentially have a giant disadvantage that we had no way of foreseeing. Only way that I am a fan of single site rotations for 4th year is if we're given the ability to reach out to places we were going to be auditioning at and allowed to inquire if they will take us for the year. That way we get face time with at least one program we're interested in and we stay in one spot which most of you are advocating.

 

[order66.exe]

Okay? This doesn't help those of us who are about to be 4th years and potentially have a giant disadvantage that we had no way of foreseeing. Only way that I am a fan of single site rotations for 4th year is if we're given the ability to reach out to places we were going to be auditioning at and allowed to inquire if they will take us for the year. That way we get face time with at least one program we're interested in and we stay in one spot which most of you are advocating.

The decisions about this are going to be made by ivory tower academic docs from top 10 schools and MBA administrators. Maybe this is cynical of me but If you think they’ll make any consideration for what’s best for the careers of USDO students, well, I have a bridge to sell you. A lot of those people still think DOs are chiropractors.

This lack of influence is exacerbated by the fact that DO schools are free riders happy to collect tuition checks without investing in the clinical infrastructure needed to terminally train their students to attending status.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

The decisions about this are going to be made by ivory tower academic docs from top 10 schools and MBA administrators. Maybe this is cynical of me but If you think they’ll make any consideration for what’s best for the careers of USDO students, well, I have a bridge to sell you. A lot of those people still think DOs are chiropractors.

This lack of influence is exacerbated by the fact that DO schools are free riders happy to collect tuition checks without investing in the clinical infrastructure needed to terminally train their students to attending status.

I agree 100%

 

[sunshinefl]

The decisions about this are going to be made by ivory tower academic docs from top 10 schools and MBA administrators. Maybe this is cynical of me but If you think they’ll make any consideration for what’s best for the careers of USDO students, well, I have a bridge to sell you. A lot of those people still think DOs are chiropractors.

This lack of influence is exacerbated by the fact that DO schools are free riders happy to collect tuition checks without investing in the clinical infrastructure needed to terminally train their students to attending status.

Again, multiple MD schools rely on hospital affiliations for rotations the same way we do, at some of the very same hospitals.

 

[Scrubs101]

Again, multiple MD schools rely on hospital affiliations for rotations the same way we do, at some of the very same hospitals.

+1 of the 7 medical schools in my state (6MD 1 DO), only 1 has a true "University Hospital". While some schools have more exclusive contracts with certain hospitals, a lot of them are actually mixed at the same sites.

 

[libertyyne]

Again, multiple MD schools rely on hospital affiliations for rotations the same way we do, at some of the very same hospitals.

Yes, but apparently the affiliations are stronger considering many schools dont own hospitals but have preferential placement of students and enough spots to complete rotations for the class.

 

[boolin_1]

isn't there 343 other threads on this topics. why don't we get back on track to what is important.


what board games are you guys playing

 

[sunshinefl]

isn't there 343 other threads on this topics. why don't we get back on track to what is important.


what board games are you guys playing

I love board games and I miss game nights. Not many are only 2 player
I’ve been doing jigsaw puzzles and playing Nintendo switch games with my husband.

 

[boolin_1]

I love board games and I miss game nights. Not many are only 2 player
I’ve been doing jigsaw puzzles and playing Nintendo switch games with my husband.

I've been doing weekly catan but I need to step my board games up. I have more I want to play but my group is reluctant.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Risk for world domination, I changed the military pieces to COVID particles and all the targets are medical schools through out the US.

 

[harrislakers123]

There are many community based MD schools and most DO schools that will struggle without away rotations.

 

[Chelsea FC]

I love board games and I miss game nights. Not many are only 2 player
I’ve been doing jigsaw puzzles and playing Nintendo switch games with my husband.

Get Battle Line my fav 2 player game.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Ortho takes on COVID

Ortho pulled to cover medicine during COVID19 pandemic. ------

www.captiongenerator.com

Omg I laughed way too hard at that.

 

[Giovanotto]

isn't there 343 other threads on this topics. why don't we get back on track to what is important.


what board games are you guys playing

Why board games when you have such advanced technology as the personal computer.

 

[KnuxNole]

Why board games when you have such advanced technology as the personal computer.

Especially when you're supposed to be 6 feet away from each other

Online gaming FTW

 

[Frogger27]

I got an email from the PD of an away that I applied for that said they were still planning on accepting medical students for aways once the two weeks is over, so there’s that...

 

[SurgDoc95]

I got an email from the PD of an away that I applied for that said they were still planning on accepting medical students for aways once the two weeks is over, so there’s that...

*Crosses all fingers and toes that this holds true*

 

[deleted778326]

Again, all of this is hearsay, but the rumor I was hearing prior to Thursday was there was SUPPOSED to be a vote Thursday night regarding a universal decision for away rotations. I'm a bit skeptical now as we did not hear anything yesterday, but, my understanding was it was not looking pretty going into Thursday and the consensus seemed to be that aways would be cancelled this year. Again, take this with a grain of salt, I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade or start anything but just sharing with you what I've heard through the grapevine. Trust me, I wish it wasn't the case as I am also in deep **** without aways.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Again, all of this is hearsay, but the rumor I was hearing prior to Thursday was there was SUPPOSED to be a vote Thursday night regarding a universal decision for away rotations. I'm a bit skeptical now as we did not hear anything yesterday, but, my understanding was it was not looking pretty going into Thursday and the consensus seemed to be that aways would be cancelled this year. Again, take this with a grain of salt, I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade or start anything but just sharing with you what I've heard through the grapevine. Trust me, I wish it wasn't the case as I am also in deep **** without aways.

Interesting, this will be fun! when do you think a decision will be made