(Potential) National Embargo on Away Rotations

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Hasn't there been prior discussion of a tiered or stepped application system that improves on the innate disadvantage that a hard limit would impose?? I don't recall the specifics of it but I thought there was something better than just limiting the number.

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You also are greatly underestimating what hospitals are planning regarding aways. I can tell you right now that the majority of places are still planning for away rotations, yes I'm talking major academic systems and not just small community places. It's all over the Reddit residency application spreadsheets, people contacting the places they are scheduled for aways and being told that as of now the system is still planning for them to attend. This is why a centralized decision is being discussed and implemented.

Still, part of me can’t help but feel like this decision was already made on April 15th and the next month to follow was designed just to give a great big song and dance on how they “considered” every possible alternative in a desperate attempt to get everyone on board before dropping the hammer.
 
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I hope they allow it for 90. For people with lower stats having a bigger cap is just more important. I can understand an interview max cap but not necessarily an application cap.

Then wouldn't that also allow a high stat applicant to apply to someone's reach as their safety? Programs will be stuck back at square 1 trying to figure out if a high stat applicant is sincere or no. I like that tiered system, but no way they're coordinated enough to implement this during our cycle. Maybe in a few years.
 
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Then wouldn't that also allow a high stat applicant to apply to someone's reach as their safety? Programs will be stuck back at square 1 trying to figure out if a high stat applicant is sincere or no. I like that tiered system, but no way they're coordinated enough to implement this during our cycle. Maybe in a few years.

SOAP is going to be a hell of a roller coaster ride next year, especially if there are continued visa restrictions on entry into the US.
 
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Wow it really feels like COVID-19 is carole baskin and med students hopes and dreams are carole baskins husband
 
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Then wouldn't that also allow a high stat applicant to apply to someone's reach as their safety?

This already happens though. Nothing new here.

An interview cap is an interesting idea. You could track that through ERAS somehow. You would have to make a date where all invites needed to have gone out by though, so people don’t use all their interviews and then get some more desirable invites that they really wanted afterwards.
 
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Can you imagine agreeing to work for 5+ years with someone who you never met in person ONCE!? This is insanity.
Or picking up your entire life and family and moving someplace you’ve never been before? Sure for those shooting for large academic centers this isn’t as big of a deal, but for the rest of us planning on community based residencies it’s nuts. Guess I’ll get really good at clicking through google earth street view to see the hospitals and surrounding areas?

Can’t imagine picking a med school without ever visiting the city it’s in/seeing the campus let alone a residency

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Didn’t read the thread but I had heard a lot of chatter pre-covid that many medicine and surgery programs were switching to virtual interviews for their non-categorical prelim spots. And this was pre-covid.

having said that, I would hate to commit to 3-7 years at a place without even visiting or talking to a resident there.


from our class meeting yesterday: at one of these national meetings they sent out a survey (not a vote)to medical school deans on when eras should be pushed to and the options were like the same, mid October or nov 1st. However the date nov 15 also came up. There also have not been any updates on away rotations but our school is now processing things on their end should VSAS open up again. Also like another poster said, there is talk about interview season being delayed and/or 100% in person vs. 100% virtual
 
So what does that make all the blue states that are opening back up?

I haven't heard of any blue states "pathologically optimistic." The only blue states I know of opening parts of their state are those who've met guidelines. If you have seen or heard otherwise, let me know. I may have missed it.
 
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So we just had a meeting with our dean who is confident that away rotations will be handled by the individual specialties based on his discussions with other deans. Take that for what its worth but it definitely does not seem like a final decision to cancel all aways has been made
 
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I haven't heard of any blue states "pathologically optimistic." The only blue states I know of opening parts of their state are those who've met guidelines. If you have seen or heard otherwise, let me know. I may have missed it.

What do you consider pathologically optimistic? That’s a pretty biased term.
 
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What do you consider pathologically optimistic? That’s a pretty biased term.

Never said I wasn't biased, but really that's what I consider it to be. What I consider to be pathologically optimistic is optimistic to the point of potentially causing harm. The conspiracy theorists are pathologically optimistic, for example, imo.

Other examples:
Opening meat packing plants despite outbreak among employees = pathologically optimistic.
Opening massage parlors and beauty salons in the midst of outbreak = pathologically optimistic.
Opening beaches as thousands swarm the shores within an hour = pathologically optimistic.
Spring breakers throwing caution to the wind = pathologically optimistic.

But then I tend to listen the doctors rather than the politicians and while I lean liberal, I'm frankly not a fan of any politicians. I just find it interesting that it tends to be divided among political lines. I have some theories as to why, but can share those offline if you'd like rather than further derail the thread.
 
lol Jesus Christ, I am off this forum for three years and can't even get involved in one new thread without someone's political opinion getting interjected into the midst of it. Once again, good luck everyone but I am out.
 
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Never said I wasn't biased, but really that's what I consider it to be. What I consider to be pathologically optimistic is optimistic to the point of potentially causing harm. The conspiracy theorists are pathologically optimistic, for example, imo.

Other examples:
Opening meat packing plants despite outbreak among employees = pathologically optimistic.
Opening massage parlors and beauty salons in the midst of outbreak = pathologically optimistic.
Opening beaches as thousands swarm the shores within an hour = pathologically optimistic.
Spring breakers throwing caution to the wind = pathologically optimistic.

But then I tend to listen the doctors rather than the politicians and while I lean liberal, I'm frankly not a fan of any politicians. I just find it interesting that it tends to be divided among political lines. I have some theories as to why, but can share those offline if you'd like rather than further derail the thread.

Yes let’s try to keep the politics out of this thread, since that’s not really on topic. Feel free to PM me though.
 
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My school thinks ERAS deadline is gonna be October 15. Seems reasonable to me
 
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how do they expect 8 weeks minimum(2 rotations) when it’s likely folks might not be able to rotate in clinicals at earliest in June/July? That’s cutting it close
It's neurosurgery. If you have to ask how, then it ain't for you haha.
 
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how do they expect 8 weeks minimum(2 rotations) when it’s likely folks might not be able to rotate in clinicals at earliest in June/July? That’s cutting it close

My school typically doesn’t start rotations 4th year until July, and we Usually get home +3-4 aways done. Plus ERAS may be pushed back
 
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Since this is all hypothetical anyway, what if it's written into next year's NRMP Match agreement that programs certify that they haven't held in-person interviews and applicants certify that they haven't attended any?
That would be an enormous change. And we don't even know what the world / travel will look like in the fall. Perhaps some locations will be able to have in person interviews. Or perhaps some locations will be able to host students who can travel locally to their programs.

I think it's likely that most, if not all, interviews will be virtual. But I don't see why we need to force it. Will look really silly if COVID has faded away by then - I doubt that, but it's possible.
What a great reminder of how impotent we are as med students than having PDs flout a potential national guidance to limit in person interviews. If a PD says "**** you, show up", med students are going to fall in line, good conscience be damned.
Wait, what? No one is flouting anything. As you said, it's a "potential" guidance. So let's wait and see. If we still have all these travel restrictions, then interviews will be virtual.
In the Peds letter they mentioned couples matching as an exception, so I am praying the same holds true if an application limit gets put in place. Otherwise, I am terrified about what this will mean for my significant other and I
If they make a couple's exception, I expect lots of students will find a "partner", say they are a couple, and then not submit a couple's rank list. If they don't make a couple's exception, it will be a mess for couples.
I hope they allow it for 90. For people with lower stats having a bigger cap is just more important. I can understand an interview max cap but not necessarily an application cap.
An interview cap is an interesting idea. You could track that through ERAS somehow. You would have to make a date where all invites needed to have gone out by though, so people don’t use all their interviews and then get some more desirable invites that they really wanted afterwards.
90 applications is a huge number, that's not a "limit", it's basically what happens now. But I totally get that an application limit puts a real problem on students, deciding which programs are "reasonable" isn't easy.

An interview cap is only helpful if you can really track it. Many programs don't keep track of interviews in ERAS, especially when people cancel. But of all the options discussed so far, it's the most feasible and reasonable. Would be very difficult to build and test software to enforce this by the fall.
 
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My school typically doesn’t start rotations 4th year until July, and we Usually get home +3-4 aways done. Plus ERAS may be pushed back
That’s still tight by a September 15th deadline. I’m waiting for that ERAS delay but they sure are taking their sweet time in announcing that necessary change
 
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That would be an enormous change. And we don't even know what the world / travel will look like in the fall. Perhaps some locations will be able to have in person interviews. Or perhaps some locations will be able to host students who can travel locally to their programs.

I think it's likely that most, if not all, interviews will be virtual. But I don't see why we need to force it. Will look really silly if COVID has faded away by then - I doubt that, but it's possible.

90 applications is a huge number, that's not a "limit", it's basically what happens now. But I totally get that an application limit puts a real problem on students, deciding which programs are "reasonable" isn't easy.

An interview cap is only helpful if you can really track it. Many programs don't keep track of interviews in ERAS, especially when people cancel. But of all the options discussed so far, it's the most feasible and reasonable. Would be very difficult to build and test software to enforce this by the fall.
I agree that interviews will mostly be remote by necessity, but not standardizing it would also mean that it falls on the students to either make the decision to travel vs. not travel at the expense of an interview or could cost them an interview outright if they're not able to travel due to restrictions or flight availability. I know the PD can just say "not my problem," which is true, but I don't think programs want to select their residents based on who could reasonably make it to an interview. You could also offer virtual interviews to people who can't make it, but then who knows if you're making an informed decision as a program ranking people you met in person vs. online.

Also agree that 90 is way too high of a cap, even in the most competitive specialties people tend to apply to 60-80 and we think that's crazy.

One possible solution for limiting interviews is limiting the length of a rank list so people are discouraged from going on more than X interviews, but that opens a huge can of worms.
 
Just sat through this.
I am scared people are going to game this and benefit from it. Because non-vsas programs are going to have students come in , and then those students are going to match there. Meanwhile the law abiding ones are going to get the short end of that bargain.
Hard to say. VSAS doesn't really have much to do with it though. It sounds like organized nsg leadership is on the same page about blacklisting people who apply with evidence that they rotated elsewhere. You're right there is potential for backroom deals where you rotate somewhere and don't get a letter and then match there, but I'm not convinced that will be an issue. The PDs and chairs are the ones overseeing the rotators anyway.

Edit: sorry for double post, this was posted while I was writing my last post
 
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I do have an update today. Again, strictly hearsay. But rumors from an administrator at our school told us "off the record" that the most recent update is that the AAMC is planning to put a moratorium on all sub-i's until at least January at this point. ERAS is likely going to be pushed back a month. Interviews will be held completely virtual and there will be a cap on how many different programs you can apply to. That's the latest I am hearing out of the midwest.
My school currently has a handful of MS4s on sub-Is (started mid-April), and more are preparing to go back mid-May. Will be very interesting if it's in direct contradiction to what the AAMC recommends.
 
That’s still tight by a September 15th deadline. I’m waiting for that ERAS delay but they sure are taking their sweet time in announcing that necessary change

All I’m saying is some schools deal with this sort of timeline on a regular basis and make it work
 
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All I’m saying is some schools deal with this sort of timeline on a regular basis and make it work
+1 my school usually starts auditions in august and people are allowed up to 4, people going for audition heavy specialties at my school usually go well into Nov. I know this isnt the med school norm (nor is it ideal), but it’s not as terribly impossible as some people think.
 
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We generally start 4th year in mid to late June at my school and I know people who did 7 aways/auditions in this past years class. They knew their best chance of matching (surgical specialty) was via "auditioning" and it worked out well for them.
 
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Can somebody post the link to the webpage that has the different specialties with their recommendations for applications for this upcoming cycle? If I remember correctly, so far peds, ob/gyn, and 2 other specialties posted their recommendations. I forgot the website that hosted this.

Thanks!
 
Can somebody post the link to the webpage that has the different specialties with their recommendations for applications for this upcoming cycle? If I remember correctly, so far peds, ob/gyn, and 2 other specialties posted their recommendations. I forgot the website that hosted this.

Thanks!
This one? Specialty Response to COVID
 
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Huge news from the Neurosurgery statement. I wonder if other surgical specialties will follow NS's lead?

All external medical student rotations in neurological surgery will be deferred in 2020.
...
Letters of recommendation should come from the student’s home institution
...
Letters of recommendation from external rotations will be looked upon unfavorably (with the exception of those students without a home program, see 2a).

Edit - I see this is old news and you guys already talked about it yesterday :smack:
 
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Huge news from the Neurosurgery statement. I wonder if other surgical specialties will follow NS's lead?



Edit - I see this is old news and you guys already talked about it yesterday :smack:
I was told by a peer that otolaryngology has taken a similar stance. They have not banned always for the year like NSG, but have highly discouraged them
 
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Discouraging letters form other institutions is ridiculous IMO. I have a mentor I have done research with since before med school who I was planning on writing a letter - it is an integral part of my application and story. You are really going to tell me I should be "discouraged" from using that letter. GTFO
 
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Has any other DO schools resumed rotations for June?

PCOM just lifted suspensions and w/o VSAS i'm lost where to even start to look.
 
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Discouraging letters form other institutions is ridiculous IMO. I have a mentor I have done research with since before med school who I was planning on writing a letter - it is an integral part of my application and story. You are really going to tell me I should be "discouraged" from using that letter. GTFO
they specifically said that instances like that were exceptions.
 
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Has any other DO schools resumed rotations for June?

PCOM just lifted suspensions and w/o VSAS i'm lost where to even start to look.
We’re currently supposed to be. I scheduled an OP Rheumatology back in March... but waiting to hear from doctor and school as it gets closer.
 
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Has any other DO schools resumed rotations for June?

PCOM just lifted suspensions and w/o VSAS i'm lost where to even start to look.

We’re supposed to start at the end of our dedicated in Mid/late June and the admin has encouraged us to set up rotations outside of VSAS for the time being


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Discouraging letters form other institutions is ridiculous IMO. I have a mentor I have done research with since before med school who I was planning on writing a letter - it is an integral part of my application and story. You are really going to tell me I should be "discouraged" from using that letter. GTFO
You would be able to use that letter. You would not be able go out and rotate at that institution. Have him/her write in the letter that all of this was pre-covid.
 
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The AAMC has uploaded a "COVID-19/VSLO Technical Guidance" for its VSLO host institutions. While it is unwise to draw any conclusions from this document, alot of the language seems (to me) to suggest that VSLO will reopen and that away rotations will be offered at some point and at some capacity.

It mentions the "re-opening" of VSAS several times, states that when it re-opens, schools should "be prepared to update institutional information, important dates and to close months in which you choose not to be receiving visiting students". Does this suggest that they are also choosing certain dates for which they are receiving students? It specifically tasks coordinators with "updating institution information to reflect updated institutional policies related to COVID-19, updating institution’s important dates, canceling or closing months in which programs are not receiving visiting students, and updating general elective information."

Why ask coordinators to go through all this trouble if a moratorium were imminent? Not trying to read between the lines, just wondering...
 
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The AAMC has uploaded a "COVID-19/VSLO Technical Guidance" for its VSLO host institutions. While it is unwise to draw any conclusions from this document, alot of the language seems (to me) to suggest that VSLO will reopen and that away rotations will be offered at some point and at some capacity.

It mentions the "re-opening" of VSAS several times, states that when it re-opens, schools should "be prepared to update institutional information, important dates and to close months in which you choose not to be receiving visiting students". Does this suggest that they are also choosing certain dates for which they are receiving students? It specifically tasks coordinators with "updating institution information to reflect updated institutional policies related to COVID-19, updating institution’s important dates, canceling or closing months in which programs are not receiving visiting students, and updating general elective information."

Why ask coordinators to go through all this trouble if a moratorium were imminent? Not trying to read between the lines, just wondering...

The ENT and NSGY Guidance both said they would allow students with no home programs to rotate at the closest ACGME program geographically.
 
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My school confirmed we're not going back to rotations until August. RIP
 
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The AAMC has uploaded a "COVID-19/VSLO Technical Guidance" for its VSLO host institutions. While it is unwise to draw any conclusions from this document, alot of the language seems (to me) to suggest that VSLO will reopen and that away rotations will be offered at some point and at some capacity.

It mentions the "re-opening" of VSAS several times, states that when it re-opens, schools should "be prepared to update institutional information, important dates and to close months in which you choose not to be receiving visiting students". Does this suggest that they are also choosing certain dates for which they are receiving students? It specifically tasks coordinators with "updating institution information to reflect updated institutional policies related to COVID-19, updating institution’s important dates, canceling or closing months in which programs are not receiving visiting students, and updating general elective information."

Why ask coordinators to go through all this trouble if a moratorium were imminent? Not trying to read between the lines, just wondering...
Yes they will be offered at some point, could be march of 2021. A large chunk of that document seems dedicated to closing dates and canceling rotations.

The document makes it seem like individual rotation sites may be able to decide when to reopen, but the problem is that some specialties are already offering guidance in terms of complete halt of all away rotations for this cycle. So even if there are open spots specialties have said that they will penalize applicants who actually compelte aways.

I dont think the specialties that have already come up with game plans are going to reverse course unless there is some large push from the AAMC to do so.

For those keeping tally
Derm - has not outright said away rotations should stop ,however stated that aways should not be necessary to match.
Neurosurgery-Only for those without home programs.
ENT- Only for those without home programs.
OBG-Only for those without home programs.
Peds- No away programs and limit applications*
 
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