(Potential) National Embargo on Away Rotations

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libertyyne said:
Yes they will be offered at some point, could be march of 2021. A large chunk of that document seems dedicated to closing dates and canceling rotations.

The document makes it seem like individual rotation sites may be able to decide when to reopen, but the problem is that some specialties are already offering guidance in terms of complete halt of all away rotations for this cycle. So even if there are open spots specialties have said that they will penalize applicants who actually compelte aways.

I dont think the specialties that have already come up with game plans are going to reverse course unless there is some large push from the AAMC to do so.

For those keeping tally
Derm - has not outright said away rotations should stop ,however stated that aways should not be necessary to match.
Neurosurgery-Only for those without home programs.
ENT- Only for those without home programs.
OBG-Only for those without home programs.
Peds- No away programs and limit applications*
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Im curious now, I don’t have home programs for specialties. I wonder if I could pick up some cool aways?
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You shall know the Truth said:
Im curious now, I don’t have home programs for specialties. I wonder if I could pick up some cool aways?
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It is quite possible. DO students might get some great aways out of this. On the flip side the guidance from Neurosurgery was to ask your dean to reach out to a program director in the area. So there is still the part about your deans going out of their way to get you somewhere.
 
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We also had an update from the Deans today. Nothing much to add.
  • Regarding aways, they told us to reference the guidelines per each specialty, and emphasized that doing an away when you already have a home institution is more likely to be held AGAINST you by most PDs than to help you this year.
  • Regarding resumption of clerkships, they refused to confirm or deny anything. They're currently pretending that we will resume in less than three weeks, but neighboring schools are already cancelled until July. I think they're just adopting the same practice that governments are using on their agitated unemployed citizens right now: update at the very last minute in very short intervals (e.g. every two weeks).
  • For scheduling when we do eventually resume, they're planning to shorten all 4 week blocks to 3 weeks, and all 8 week blocks to 6 weeks. They said this is similar to what's being cooked up at other schools.
  • For USMLEs, they're also in the dark. NBME is aware of how bad the issue is becoming with thousands of backlogged/cancelled exams. Per a letter from the NBME to deans, they are "exploring all options" including "innovative" ones which I assume means either school-proctored or remote/web-based USMLEs.
  • Still no final word on ERAS, though they said they'd be "surprised" if it wasn't pushed back.
  • No discussion of Zoom interviews for residency, sub-I/ICU/ED rotations moratorium, or any other big new developments.
Overall a bit of a nothingburger, I feel just as clueless about the next few months as I did before their update. This PS4 Pro is turning out to be a better and better investment every day though...
 
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efle said:
This PS4 Pro is turning out to be a better and better investment every day though...
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Dang I’m basically getting the dedicated of a lifetime with quarantine and I only feel dumber. Maybe I should have gone PS4>Uworld.
 
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efle said:
We also had an update from the Deans today. Nothing much to add.
  • Regarding aways, they told us to reference the guidelines per each specialty, and emphasized that doing an away when you already have a home institution is more likely to be held AGAINST you by most PDs than to help you this year.
  • Regarding resumption of clerkships, they refused to confirm or deny anything. They're currently pretending that we will resume in less than three weeks, but neighboring schools are already cancelled until July. I think they're just adopting the same practice that governments are using on their agitated unemployed citizens right now: update at the very last minute in very short intervals (e.g. every two weeks).
  • For scheduling when we do eventually resume, they're planning to shorten all 4 week blocks to 3 weeks, and all 8 week blocks to 6 weeks. They said this is similar to what's being cooked up at other schools.
  • For USMLEs, they're also in the dark. NBME is aware of how bad the issue is becoming with thousands of backlogged/cancelled exams. Per a letter from the NBME to deans, they are "exploring all options" including "innovative" ones which I assume means either school-proctored or remote/web-based USMLEs.
  • Still no final word on ERAS, though they said they'd be "surprised" if it wasn't pushed back.
  • No discussion of Zoom interviews for residency, sub-I/ICU/ED rotations moratorium, or any other big new developments.
Overall a bit of a nothingburger, I feel just as clueless about the next few months as I did before their update. This PS4 Pro is turning out to be a better and better investment every day though...
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All the same things my school is doing/saying
 
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You shall know the Truth said:
Are you making battle ropes out of bed sheets?
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Nah. I don't use those rope exercises these days but have chain, line, and pulley blocks available from another hobby. Right now I focus on deadlifts and squats with dumbbell work for everything else. Horse stall rubber mats and being able to weld are key for this. It's pretty popular with home/garage gym people.
 
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New from VSLO:

Recommendation 1 ― Away Rotations for Medical Students
The WG recommends that for the 2020-2021 academic year, away rotations be discouraged, except
under the following circumstances:
• Learners who have a specialty interest and do not have access to a clinical experience with a
residency program in that specialty in their school’s system.
• Learners for whom an away rotation is required for graduation or accreditation requirements.

I'm wondering what they mean by "discouraged". Does that mean if I have a geographical need, that I can still do one? Or is that a tender way of saying I'm SOL?
 
Groy said:
New from VSLO:

Recommendation 1 ― Away Rotations for Medical Students
The WG recommends that for the 2020-2021 academic year, away rotations be discouraged, except
under the following circumstances:
• Learners who have a specialty interest and do not have access to a clinical experience with a
residency program in that specialty in their school’s system.
• Learners for whom an away rotation is required for graduation or accreditation requirements.

I'm wondering what they mean by "discouraged". Does that mean if I have a geographical need, that I can still do one? Or is that a tender way of saying I'm SOL?
Click to expand...
Was that the big announcement today? Our school sent us an email that they'd learn things at 9:30 am this morning about, "recommendations on student travel to away rotations/audition rotations, virtual residency interviews, and changes to the ERAS timeline"
 
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My viewpoint is that it would be a demerit to your application, if not outright disqualifier. This sentiment has been hinted at by several specialties as well.
 
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samac said:
Was that the big announcement today? Our school sent us an email that they'd learn things at 9:30 am this morning about, "recommendations on student travel to away rotations/audition rotations, virtual residency interviews, and changes to the ERAS timeline"
Click to expand...

Yup, the AAMC released their executive summary on away Rotations this morning.
 
peachrings said:
My viewpoint is that it would be a demerit to your application, if not outright disqualifier. This sentiment has been hinted at by several specialties as well.
Click to expand...
I know it’s been hashed our up the thread, but now that some more time has passed what are your thoughts regarding DO students who do 3rd year at community hospitals and use audition season to get good LORs and junk? Still think PDs will can those apps if the student did aways?
 
I cold emailed a few places (I'm a third year DO), and many are taking the recommendations and "it was decided today that they will no longer be accepting visiting students for 2020-2021". So this'll be fun!!
 
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Chibucks15 said:
I cold emailed a few places (I'm a third year DO), and many are taking the recommendations and "it was decided today that they will no longer be accepting visiting students for 2020-2021". So this'll be fun!!
Click to expand...
Did you get any cancellations though?
 
Spectreman said:
I know it’s been hashed our up the thread, but now that some more time has passed what are your thoughts regarding DO students who do 3rd year at community hospitals and use audition season to get good LORs and junk? Still think PDs will can those apps if the student did aways?
Click to expand...

According to the statements presented by AAMC and other organizations, doesn't seem like DO students and those without home programs will be penalized. I forsee the bigger problem will be that most organizations will institute a blanket ban on aways until home students are done with rotations or possibly even after that.

As such, programs should really open slots for local students without a home program. I just don't know if they will do so.
 
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I have an away at a program only 30 miles from mine in November, but sounds like I wont be able to do it due to having a home program. Kind of sucks given that this away was scheduled pretty late in the cycle and this place doesnt have an affiliated med school (so wont have a backlog of rotators). Part of me wants to ask my PD if he/she would care if I would go if the place would still allow me, but I do not want it to be seen as "sneaky" and get penalized by it.
 
Frogger27 said:
I have an away at a program only 30 miles from mine in November, but sounds like I wont be able to do it due to having a home program. Kind of sucks given that this away was scheduled pretty late in the cycle and this place doesnt have an affiliated med school (so wont have a backlog of rotators). Part of me wants to ask my PD if he/she would care if I would go if the place would still allow me, but I do not want it to be seen as "sneaky" and get penalized by it.
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Idt the problem will be so much your problem PD but other program PDs who are compliant w this policy. They don’t know you so will just assume you are sneaky and penalize you.
 
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I had planned an away with someone I worked with during research year. It is in my home state and we have poster and paper for publication. From reading this, I should probably just cancel the away and use her letter as an additional LOR because the clinical work I did wasn't an actual rotation.
I am regretting my research year so much right now.
 
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frenchyn said:
Idt the problem will be so much your problem PD but other program PDs who are compliant w this policy. They don’t know you so will just assume you are sneaky and penalize you.
Click to expand...

I am not sure how other programs would know given the rotation is after ERAS submission so I don't see how other PDs will know. But yeah, this is walking on the line of sneaky and it probably is not worth it. Can see this being a problem this cycle though and not sure how it will be enforced.
 
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edit: idk anymore fam
 
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Frogger27 said:
I am not sure how other programs would know given the rotation is after ERAS submission so I don't see how other PDs will know. But yeah, this is walking on the line of sneaky and it probably is not worth it. Can see this being a problem this cycle though and not sure how it will be enforced.
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They'll ask you point-blank in an interview whether you did any away rotations, match rules be damned. Not a good time to lie.
 
longhaul3 said:
They'll ask you point-blank in an interview whether you did any away rotations, match rules be damned. Not a good time to lie.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd probably piss my pants if that happened in my interview... well, actually, I probably won't have pants on in my zoom interview anyway sooo
 
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Frogger27 said:
Yeah I'd probably piss my pants if that happened in my interview... well, actually, I probably won't have pants on in my zoom interview anyway sooo
Click to expand...
Cleanup on aisle 5!

Seriously, though, to those of you considering this, you WILL be asked about your away rotations in almost every interview, so don't count on being able to hide it if you do any.
 
longhaul3 said:
Cleanup on aisle 5!

Seriously, though, to those of you considering this, you WILL be asked about your away rotations in almost every interview, so don't count on being able to hide it if you do any.
Click to expand...
Not doing this myself but, I could see it going like this:

"Did you do auditions?""Yes""Why?""They were already scheduled prior to COVID changes and as an applicant, I feared being blackballed for canceling"

Programs should understand the power dynamic they hold over applicants and respect that THEY need to be the one to cancel on us to assure we dont do auditions. If there is going to be no single ultimate decision that will be respected by PDs, then they need to understand auditions that still happen are due to other PDs decisions to continue and not the applicants fault for not black balling themselves from programs they scheduled at.

In b4 "do you need to be told not to eat tide pods too?"

Whats next programs asking "are any programs having you show up to in person interviews??? You shouldnt have gone!!!"
 
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Scrubs101 said:
Not doing this myself but, I could see it going like this:

"Did you do auditions?""Yes""Why?""They were already scheduled prior to COVID changes and as an applicant, I feared being blackballed for canceling"

Programs should understand the power dynamic they hold over applicants and respect that THEY need to be the one to cancel on us to assure we dont do auditions. If there is going to be no single ultimate decision that will be respected by PDs, then they need to understand auditions that still happen are due to other PDs decisions to continue and not the applicants fault for not black balling themselves from programs they scheduled at.

In b4 "do you need to be told not to eat tide pods too?"

Whats next programs asking "are any programs having you show up to in person interviews??? You shouldnt have gone!!!"
Click to expand...

This is where I am at. I had some set up already, and now Im afraid to cancel.
 
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There's a reasonable chance you're overthinking this. This policy should result in PD's not penalizing you for not having an away rotation. That's different from penalizing you for doing an away rotation.

Or, if you prefer boolean algebra:

(~A => ~B) =/= (A => B)
 
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longhaul3 said:
Cleanup on aisle 5!

Seriously, though, to those of you considering this, you WILL be asked about your away rotations in almost every interview, so don't count on being able to hide it if you do any.
Click to expand...

Will this be a thing for students who don't have a home program? I sure don't and I have a few scheduled and I plan on going on them as long as the hospital gives the OK. It seems like it will be very hospital dependent.
 
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Scrubs101 said:
Not doing this myself but, I could see it going like this:

"Did you do auditions?""Yes""Why?""They were already scheduled prior to COVID changes and as an applicant, I feared being blackballed for canceling"

Programs should understand the power dynamic they hold over applicants and respect that THEY need to be the one to cancel on us to assure we dont do auditions. If there is going to be no single ultimate decision that will be respected by PDs, then they need to understand auditions that still happen are due to other PDs decisions to continue and not the applicants fault for not black balling themselves from programs they scheduled at.

In b4 "do you need to be told not to eat tide pods too?"

Whats next programs asking "are any programs having you show up to in person interviews??? You shouldnt have gone!!!"
Click to expand...

After I cancel the one I currently have with the PC, I am planning on emailing the PD directly, expressing my continued interest in the program even though I had to cancel and desire to still be given full consideration this fall.


Espressso said:
Will this be a thing for students who don't have a home program? I sure don't and I have a few scheduled and I plan on going on them as long as the hospital gives the OK. It seems like it will be very hospital dependent.
Click to expand...

Personally I would only do 1. There is clearly an exception for people without home programs, but I could see them very easily holding it against you for doing multiple.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
After I cancel the one I currently have with the PC, I am planning on emailing the PD directly, expressing my continued interest in the program even though I had to cancel and desire to still be given full consideration this fall.




Personally I would only do 1. There is clearly an exception for people without home programs, but I could see them very easily holding it against you for doing multiple.
Click to expand...
This is interesting, a Lot of questions arise. Especially those programs that traditionally audition for interview. Any thoughts?
 
You shall know the Truth said:
This is interesting, a Lot of questions arise. Especially those programs that traditionally audition for interview. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

The absolute worst case scenario is some rogue programs still trying to force students to do auditions because, "this is how we do it." I think it's selfish for the programs to do this. We are all making sacrifices, programs that don't follow the reqs only hurt applicants even more by putting them in a really tough situation.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
The absolute worst case scenario is some rogue programs still trying to force students to do auditions because, "this is how we do it." I think it's selfish for the programs to do this. We are all making sacrifices, programs that don't follow the reqs only hurt applicants even more by putting them in a really tough situation.
Click to expand...
So do we effectively get 1 audition for DO students and that’s it?
 
Personally I’d wait to hear from your home institution before you go cancelling all of your aways. Probably only going to cause more chaos for PCs if you start emailing them now. I’m super disappointed, have 7 aways set up all over the country, have been looking forward to the “bachelor on the road” stent for months... not to mention I have crap-ola scores and have been banking on showing programs personally I’m not a dum dum. I think a lot can happen in the next few weeks, so I’m not gonna jump the gun.
 
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Spectreman said:
Personally I’d wait to hear from your home institution before you go cancelling all of your aways. Probably only going to cause more chaos for PCs if you start emailing them now. I’m super disappointed, have 7 aways set up all over the country, have been looking forward to the “bachelor on the road” stent for months... not to mention I have crap-ola scores and have been banking on showing programs personally I’m not a dum dum. I think a lot can happen in the next few weeks, so I’m not gonna jump the gun.
Click to expand...
Agree
 
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This is gonna hurt some students even for less competitive specialties. I'm finishing peds residency. My DO school offered a decent inpatient peds rotation third year. But I've met other students (not just DO, USMD as well) who didn't get to do inpatient peds during 3rd year. With no aways, how are they going to decide they actually want peds?

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
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NotAProgDirector said:
There's a reasonable chance you're overthinking this. This policy should result in PD's not penalizing you for not having an away rotation. That's different from penalizing you for doing an away rotation.

Or, if you prefer boolean algebra:

(~A => ~B) =/= (A => B)
Click to expand...
Yes, the logic is different, but various entities have also already said explicitly that they will penalize you for having done any away rotations.
 
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