Would you do it over again?

[Arch Guillotti]

I can think of three, and no they aren't I-Banking, Consulting, Law, or shot-in-the-dark CEO positions.

1. Dentistry- already been discussed in this thread.

2. Accounting. Students from state schools are still capable of landing a position at a Big 4 Accounting firm. Starting salaries are around ~$60,000, but tough it out to partner level and you could be making $500k per year. At New York firms, accountants can make a million per year as partner. The catch is that these people work terrible hours.

3. Petroleum Engineering- starting salaries are high- around $85,000+. And this is with a four year degree. Here we have the advantage of no grad-school loans and time value of money. Save and invest your money and, with compound interest, you'll easily come ahead of the anesthesiologist.

1.) There is no way I want to look in nasty mouths all day and smell bad breath.

2.) The high paying jobs you are referring to are MISERABLE hours.

3.) No way this is true.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[pgg]

Excalibur, grind is a good word.

My older brother decided to go to med school when he was 35 or so. Married with two small kids. Doubly amazing to me, since he'd just watched me grind my way through everything and he did it anyway. He just finished an ER residency and is loving life now. But like you wrote, it was a grind.


Would I do it over, starting now, in my 30s? I don't know, I guess that would depend on what I spent my 20s doing. If I was losing an established career I could at least tolerate, that paid enough, maybe not. If I was coming off a decade-long run of ski-bumming it in the winter and beach-bumming it in the summer, probably.

 

[BLADEMDA]

1.) There is no way I want to look in nasty mouths all day and smell bad breath.

2.) The high paying jobs you are referring to are MISERABLE hours.

3.) No way this is true.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eghj/1-petroleum-engineering/

This field is red hot right now and an experienced Petroleum Engineer is in great demand with salaries in the $250K plus range.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eghj/1-petroleum-engineering/

This field is red hot right now and an experienced Petroleum Engineer is in great demand with salaries in the $250K plus range.

The starting salary is $80,000 or so on the link. I wonder how much experience is required to command that salary though.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Petroleum engineering has historically been one of the highest paid engineering disciplines, although there is a tendency for mass layoffs when oil prices decline. In a June 4th, 2007 article, Forbes.com reported that petroleum engineering was the 24th best paying job in the United States.[2] The 2010 National Association of Colleges and Employers survey showed petroleum engineers as the highest paid 2010 graduates at an average $125,220 annual salary.[3] For individuals with experience, salaries can go from $170,000 to $260,000 annually

 

[BLADEMDA]

Salary Survey Highlights from the 2012 Salary Survey Compensation in the petroleum industry in 2012 continues to follow the growth trend of recent years, with an overall calculated increase in total compensation of 9.3 percent, or an average self-reported income of USD 223,472 in 2012 compared to USD 204,368 in 2011.
Respondents reported an overall net change of 6.4 percent in base pay from 2011 to 2012 compared to a 6.3 percent net change in 2011.
Mean base pay increased by 12.4 percent from USD 148,301 in 2011 to USD 166,753 in 2012.
Bonus and extra income remained steady at more than USD 56,000 from 2011 to 2012.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Salary Survey Highlights from the 2012 Salary Survey Compensation in the petroleum industry in 2012 continues to follow the growth trend of recent years, with an overall calculated increase in total compensation of 9.3 percent, or an average self-reported income of USD 223,472 in 2012 compared to USD 204,368 in 2011.
Respondents reported an overall net change of 6.4 percent in base pay from 2011 to 2012 compared to a 6.3 percent net change in 2011.
Mean base pay increased by 12.4 percent from USD 148,301 in 2011 to USD 166,753 in 2012.
Bonus and extra income remained steady at more than USD 56,000 from 2011 to 2012.

Real income is easily in excess of $250,000 as stock options are not reported in the same manner as income if not exercised. In addition, it is doubtful "self reported income" is the real, total income of that individual.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

So if someone was going to hit a rewind button and release the button way back when I started college or med school in effect erasing my medical knowledge and memory of how hard the path is, but I had to decide right now in the present if I wanted to program my life to become an anesthesiologist again, I would say HELL YES! Why? As my friend, Hawaiian Bruin, points out...Anesthesia is F'n awesome! I am very happy with what I do and my way of life. If had to tell my 18 year old self is it worth it, I would tell him yes.

Some interesting anecdotes...

Having said the above, I would never want to do med school and residency again. Once was plenty. It was not really an enjoyable time. One word to describe it. GRIND. The trek was a mother f****in' GRIND. Very early on in the trek, you just want to finish. You just want out.

But...since it was worth it, and I am very happy now, I would tell my 18 year old self to go for it.

A very interesting question:

How many fresh attendings would do it all over again starting now at their current age (30-35 year olds)?

Why do I bring this up? My brother and I are physicians, and a good friend of mine, who was our roommate in college, recently decided on a career change. He is a lawyer, but 3 years ago he told me he wanted to change from law into medicine. He just was not liking law anymore and wanted something different. He is my age, married with two kids. He had already made up his mind and was set to take some prereq courses in the spring in preparation for completing prereqs and taking the MCAT. At the time I was a CA3. I explained that I would help and guide in any way I could. I explained that I wanted him to be aware that after 8-10 years of work, I was just now getting into a place where I felt that "happiness" so if he wanted that "warm and fuzzy" feeling of helping the world, he probably was not going to see that for a while, and in the interim, it was going to be a mother f***ing GRIND. He understood and wanted to go on with it. My friend is now ready to start his first day of med school this month. At age 34 he is going to get the "This is what we expect from you out of our gross anatomy course". That speech was 11 years ago for me.

It got me to ask my brother, knowing what we know, what would it take for us to begin the ENTIRE journey right now at our current age. I ask you guys to. The main list that my brother came up with...

Knowing what I know, to start the entire process again the following would have to apply:
1. The hypothetical genie would have to make it that I was somehow single and never met my wife and started a family. THERE IS NO WAY I COULD DO IT AGAIN AT MY AGE WITH A WIFE AND TWO KIDS.
2. The payout would have to be more. Obviously the financial gain would have to be more in order to start at my age. My brother and I felt double salary was not even close. 3x salary was maybe, but we felt 4x salary was a much better thought.
3. I would have to keep my medical knowledge. If the deal is that I have to start at my age with a blank canvas, the answer is emphatically NO since I know how hard it was.
4. I would prefer that my tuition be paid for. If condition 2 were met, I may be OK with paying tuition depending on how much.

There may have been more stipulations, but I can't think of them right now.

Yes there were people in their 30's in my med school class, and my friend is going to be in his 30's in his M1 class.

Me personally, though, with what I know of how hard it was and how taxing emotionally, financially, mentally, physically, there is no way I could start from scratch in my early to mid 30's. Your thoughts?

Just started my MS 2 year and I turned 34 in July. I certainly don't "know what you know" but even this early in I can defiantly say its a grind. I'm also married and have 5 month old twins. MS 1 was tough. Its a long road for sure, but I feel lucky to be doing it.

Having said that and only having one year of med school under my belt I can say that it would be tough to go all the way through the process twice. I'm just getting started but I can see that its such a difficult road that it takes just about everything a person has to do it once.

To do it all twice would.........take a very special person.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

Salary Survey Highlights from the 2012 Salary Survey Compensation in the petroleum industry in 2012 continues to follow the growth trend of recent years, with an overall calculated increase in total compensation of 9.3 percent, or an average self-reported income of USD 223,472 in 2012 compared to USD 204,368 in 2011.
Respondents reported an overall net change of 6.4 percent in base pay from 2011 to 2012 compared to a 6.3 percent net change in 2011.
Mean base pay increased by 12.4 percent from USD 148,301 in 2011 to USD 166,753 in 2012.
Bonus and extra income remained steady at more than USD 56,000 from 2011 to 2012.

My cousin just graduated last year and is currently working as a petroleum engineer in Louisiana. From what he's told me salaries like what are in the report are possible but not for new grads.

As a new grad he makes in the 70's but here's the thing. According to him every new grad regardless of discipline (civil, aerospace, petroleum, whatever) must have their work signed off on by a senior engineer for 2 years, sort of like an apprenticeship. After that time your salary will go up as your experience goes up.

So based on my sample of 1, 200k salaries are possible but they make take a decade or more to get there.

Still not a bad gig for a 4 year degree if you ask me.

 

[BLADEMDA]

My cousin just graduated last year and is currently working as a petroleum engineer in Louisiana. From what he's told me salaries like what are in the report are possible but not for new grads.

As a new grad he makes in the 70's but here's the thing. According to him every new grad regardless of discipline (civil, aerospace, petroleum, whatever) must have their work signed off on by a senior engineer for 2 years, sort of like an apprenticeship. After that time your salary will go up as your experience goes up.

So based on my sample of 1, 200k salaries are possible but they make take a decade or more to get there.

Still not a bad gig for a 4 year degree if you ask me.

Sorry, But your brother is below the national average. My salary information comes from the Society of Petroleum Engineers. After 3 years most make over $140K and after 10 most earn over $200K. After 15 years the salary jumps to $250K in the USA. About 1/3 of these Petroleum Engineers have an advanced degree beyond Bachelor.

 

[IveGotTwins]

Just started my MS 2 year and I turned 34 in July. I certainly don't "know what you know" but even this early in I can defiantly say its a grind. I'm also married and have 5 month old twins. MS 1 was tough. Its a long road for sure, but I feel lucky to be doing it.

Having said that and only having one year of med school under my belt I can say that it would be tough to go all the way through the process twice. I'm just getting started but I can see that its such a difficult road that it takes just about everything a person has to do it once.

To do it all twice would.........take a very special person.

NOsaints fan I applaud you.

I have a remarkably similar story. I also completed medical school with twins who were born in the summer between M1 an M2. My wife and I were 23 and not 34 so I give you even more credit. If you're the mother then you deserve a solid gold medal.

 

[imfrankie]

No one has said "Actuary," but I like math.

 

[Silent Cool]

No one has said "Actuary," but I like math.

Yeah, Actuary can be a good gig. Also Pharmacist. Also Patent Attorney (Intellectual Property Attorney).

 

[pgg]

Yeah, Actuary can be a good gig. Also Pharmacist. Also Patent Attorney (Intellectual Property Attorney).

The job market for newly minted pharmacists and attorneys isn't looking so great.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

NOsaints fan I applaud you.

I have a remarkably similar story. I also completed medical school with twins who were born in the summer between M1 an M2. My wife and I were 23 and not 34 so I give you even more credit. If you're the mother then you deserve a solid gold medal.

Thank you for the kind words. My wife is a super star and without her it would be impossible to go down this road. We moved for medical school so we have no family around to help with the kids. Its been a challenge but things with the kids have started to settle down a little. Again its my wife who's really making this happen, if she wasn't a rock star mom then I wouldn't have made it though first year. Its funny no matter how much shadowing you do or taking to people before you start med school there is no way you can truly understand what the work load will be like till you actually do it. Support is the key (for me). I still feel fortunate every day to have this opportunity. Hopefully I'll still feel that way in 6 years or so.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

Sorry, But your brother is below the national average. My salary information comes from the Society of Petroleum Engineers. After 3 years most make over $140K and after 10 most earn over $200K. After 15 years the salary jumps to $250K in the USA. About 1/3 of these Petroleum Engineers have an advanced degree beyond Bachelor.

That is consistent with what my cousin is telling me. He said at his company after the initial first 2 years (for a new grad) then salary jumps significantly. So his 3 rd year income should be in that ballpark you listed.

 

[Ipassgas]

+1 on superstar spouses.
If I hadn't gotten into med school, a masters in chemical engineering was the fallback plan. Both good choices.

 

[vistaril]

Actually, the psychiatrists seem to be universally happy:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1021641

Then again, they're all working at an 8-5 pace. So, I suppose once you reach a certain point having excessive amounts of money doesn't make you any happier. Rather, it's more important that one has time to spend with his friends, family, and hobbies supplemented by a comfortable income to support himself.

dude, you anesthesia guys make twice what we make in a day before we even get to work. Our schedule *may* be a little better than yours(but not always), but trust me when I say that you anesthesia people would be miserable if you made psych money.

Plus, I'd imagine there is a different level of satisfaction when you do something in anesthesia vs so many encounters in psych. For example, when you guys intubate someone who is in severe respiratory distress that is a specific intervention that has some value that can be appreciated as meaningful. When we switch someone from one antipsychotic to another, I don't think the same satisfaction is there in that there is no real way to tell if that intervention made a difference.

 

[Silent Cool]

I think you guys are missing the bigger picture here. Obamacare and everything we associate with it is just a symptom - not the pathogenesis, per se - of the ****ty outlook for physicians in the coming future. The cause for all this is simply a steady decline in the economic dominance of the West, coupled with the reluctance of our nation to accept this fact. For many reasons that I won't really go into, I don't see the US bouncing back to the way it was 10-50 years ago. That economic boom has come and gone, and will not repeat itself barring some great unforeseen innovation. With that in mind, what skill set would I rather have going forward? Diagnosis and treatment of life-threatening disease or straightening teeth? Lettuce be cereal... orthodontics and actually majority of dentistry is a relatively scarce presence in the rest of the world, and was born in the US out of sheer prosperity. When that prosperity goes away, so follows the prosperity of DDS'es.

http://www.wfo.org/Europe.aspx

 

[bronx43]

http://www.wfo.org/Europe.aspx

Ok... what's your point? I didn't say orthodontics and dentistry didn't exist in other countries. I'm saying that dentistry as a whole (and especially orthodontics) is a largely elective health care service that is far more dependent on a country's wealth than medicine. Is it not painfully obvious that people's teeth become worse and worse the farther down the GDP list you get... you wouldn't even have to go that far. There's a big difference in dental care between Americans and their British counterparts.

 

[yappy]

Ok... what's your point? I didn't say orthodontics and dentistry didn't exist in other countries. I'm saying that dentistry as a whole (and especially orthodontics) is a largely elective health care service that is far more dependent on a country's wealth than medicine. Is it not painfully obvious that people's teeth become worse and worse the farther down the GDP list you get... you wouldn't even have to go that far. There's a big difference in dental care between Americans and their British counterparts.

Dentistry has been practiced since the neothlithic era. Modern dentistry is common in the world despite a country being poor - I saw a lot of dental offices in poorer regions of the middle east.

Implicit in your post is that US-style-medicine is not largely elective in other regions of the world. This is false. I would imagine that ~60-80 percent of the surgical volume done in the US would not be performed in poorer nations due to a different standard of care. Do you think they're doing TAVR in Afghanistan?

Also, the British comparison is just a stereotype. When I was interested in dentistry I made sure to stop into many of their offices and they're doing the same stuff we are here.

 

[circulus vitios]

3. Petroleum Engineering- starting salaries are high- around $85,000+. And this is with a four year degree. Here we have the advantage of no grad-school loans and time value of money. Save and invest your money and, with compound interest, you'll easily come ahead of the anesthesiologist.

Petroleum engineers with service companies work long hours and in conditions that would make neurosurgeons cry. Upwards of a month living in a trailer at the drilling pad, or maybe a hotel off-site, in some desolate hick town. There are no work limits so you work until you're relieved or the job is done, whether it's a 12 hour shift or a 36 hour shift. When you're not at work, you're on call. When the job is completely finished you "get" a week or two off, but it's more likely that you will be called out to the next job in a few days. If you're working with a big international companies (Weatherford, SLB, Halli, BH), they might put you overseas in Nigeria, Brazil, Azerbaijan, etc. after a couple years of state side work.

State side, onshore, entry level MWD field engineers make ~$30k/year base salary + $200-300/day per diem, or about $100k/year. Put up with all that crap for five years, switch to directional drilling, and pull down $200-300k/year with similarly terrible hours and work conditions.

I guess you can make good money as a petroleum engineer working for a service company, as long as you don't mind living and working in the armpit of whichever country you're working in, and as long as you don't mind working around uneducated, racist, felonious hillbillies.

 

[nimbus]

I worked in business prior to med school. The marketing director of our company worked hard, but arrived around 9am and left by 5pm and got paid around $180K. Our VP of Sales made around $280K and his hours were similar. This was at a $3 Billion company. They had stress, but lived pretty nice lives. Getting flown around the country first class. Nobody's lives at stake. No lawsuits. Pressuring other people under them to put out or leave.

Movie directors can make $1Mill per film and have amazingly creative jobs.

I don't work 9-5 but I would be pretty upset if my income was 180 or 280. That is how good anesthesia and medicine in general is. And I sleep in my own bed every night except once or twice a month.

 

[Monty Python]

I agree 100%. It's Fantasy Island to assume that the average med student "could have" succeeded amongst the ranks of high performing, successful, high finance dudes. Some could for sure. But, not the average or, like you state, even above average. No way.


Whatever makes you feel better though.......

I think as a general rule, to navigate this economy takes a lot more than it did 30 years ago. I've spoken to many many people across a wide range of industries/professions, and most will agree with this.

Across MOST fields, we have more barriers to entry (higher capital cost, red tape, legal issues), less natural growth (at least for now), weaker profit margins, and generally less opportunity for younger dudes to have the types of opportunities that prior generations have had, at least the past few decades. Today, you have to be better, smarter, and work harder in MOST fields, and even still you may not earn as much or have as many opportunities for advancement and growth than your current boss in his 50's had. I'm not trying to be a downer, but most people who look at things objectively would agree this is true, with some exceptions.

I like your bringing Porter's forces into the discussion; adds a nice dimension.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_five_forces_analysis

 

[bronx43]

Dentistry has been practiced since the neothlithic era. Modern dentistry is common in the world despite a country being poor - I saw a lot of dental offices in poorer regions of the middle east.

Implicit in your post is that US-style-medicine is not largely elective in other regions of the world. This is false. I would imagine that ~60-80 percent of the surgical volume done in the US would not be performed in poorer nations due to a different standard of care. Do you think they're doing TAVR in Afghanistan?

Also, the British comparison is just a stereotype. When I was interested in dentistry I made sure to stop into many of their offices and they're doing the same stuff we are here.

My point is that most of dentistry is MORE "elective" than most of medicine. I don't think that dentistry will disappear, because that's rather absurd. However, when excess wealth of a nation such as the US dwindles, society as a whole would be more inclined to keep its surgical volume than teeth cleaning or crown placements. Sure, they're not doing the same arthroscopic knee surgeries or transcatheter procedures in Afghanistan, but when you already have the resources to perform them, and your overall wealth decreases, you will inevitably choose to keep your medical services over your dental services. And to be honest, some of medicine such as dermatology or plastics would see similar if not bigger losses in market share.

 

[BLADEMDA]

My point is that most of dentistry is MORE "elective" than most of medicine. I don't think that dentistry will disappear, because that's rather absurd. However, when excess wealth of a nation such as the US dwindles, society as a whole would be more inclined to keep its surgical volume than teeth cleaning or crown placements. Sure, they're not doing the same arthroscopic knee surgeries or transcatheter procedures in Afghanistan, but when you already have the resources to perform them, and your overall wealth decreases, you will inevitably choose to keep your medical services over your dental services. And to be honest, some of medicine such as dermatology or plastics would see similar if not bigger losses in market share.

I must disagree with you here. Over the next 20 years the services of specialized dentists will increase as the Baby boomers age and the next generation also demands these services. While the population expects almost free health care they understand dentistry is fee for service. Like the Smart phone or Ipad tablet the population is willing to pay for those items they deem valuable. Like it or not nice teeth is one of them. Wealth decline in the USA is a gradual process and any young person choosing Dentistry or a specialized area of dentistry will do just fine in his/her lifetime.

 

[bronx43]

I must disagree with you here. Over the next 20 years the services of specialized dentists will increase as the Baby boomers age and the next generation also demands these services. While the population expects almost free health care they understand dentistry is fee for service. Like the Smart phone or Ipad tablet the population is willing to pay for those items they deem valuable. Like it or not nice teeth is one of them. Wealth decline in the USA is a gradual process and any young person choosing Dentistry or a specialized area of dentistry will do just fine in his/her lifetime.

Maybe. Maybe not. No point to go into discussion about this here, as it will be fruitless, but given the seeds of financial instability throughout the globe, I see the decline to be quite a bit more rapid than over the next half century. This viewpoint pretty much sets the basis for my position on dentistry and other highly elective services.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

I saw a lot of dental offices in poorer regions of the middle east.

I did as well, but did you actually see any POOR middle eastern people? If so did you look at their teeth? If you spent time over in the middle east then you certainly know that their is a HUGE difference between rich and poor middle easterners.

Do you think they're doing TAVR in Afghanistan?

Also, the British comparison is just a stereotype. When I was interested in dentistry I made sure to stop into many of their offices and they're doing the same stuff we are here.

I get your just trying to make a point but have you ever been to Afghanistan? I was there longer than I would like to admit and I can tell you the locals aren't doing ANYTHING except trying to figure out how to NOT get their heads chopped off when the U.S. pulls out. I don't even think dentistry is on their bucket list of things to do, healthcare for that matter is only available for the most part on US military bases.

On another note I took a cruise out of Hong Kong a few years back with loads of British on board. More than a few made comments to my wife and I saying that they knew we were American's because our teeth were so white. I don't even whiten my teeth and drink coffee daily. I know that's not scientific or anything, but I'm just sayin...White teeth in the U.S is more than just a stereotype

Spend some time in Europe and pay attention to people's teeth. While you're there traveling across the European countryside ask yourself if the standard of living is as high as what your typically used to seeing in the U.S.? Do the people there seem to have as much disposable income as people in the U.S.? If your answer is "yes" then make sure you stop at places and use public bathrooms or make sure you visit more than just London, Rome or Paris.

The dentists over there may be "doing the same stuff" as dentists in the U.S but do as many people in Europe seek dental services, based on my antidotal experience the answer is a definite NO.

 

[epidural man]

spoken true....

http://www.doceatdoc.com/sacrifices-to-become-a-doctor/


Why would anyone want to give up those 10 things?

 

[Dejavu]

DNAP is a 36 month degree. Masters CRNA is 28 months.

If you the med school route how old will you be after completing a 4 year residency?

Being a CRNA for a decade before I quit and went to Med Sch (I was 38 when I started Med Sch), I asked myself, "How old will I be in ten yrs if I don't do this, and how old if I do do this."

The answer was, I will still be ten yrs older, but not having accomplished my goal out of fear, I would have regretted it. And by then it would be too late.

It was harder than I realized it would be, but I am glad I am where I am today.

 

[cincincyreds]

I'm not sure what other profession I could do where I work 50 hours/ week and make 350k/year. So I would say I would do it again, unless there is some other field I am missing. I used to make double when I worked weekends and nights because of bonuses, but I stopped that do to health reasons.

 

[pgg]

spoken true....

http://www.doceatdoc.com/sacrifices-to-become-a-doctor/


Why would anyone want to give up those 10 things?

So, here's the list:

1. Your desire to be wealthy
2. Your desire to change the world
3. Your free weekends
4. A good nights sleep
5. Your desire to avoid feeling like a fool
6. Your desire to always put friends and family first
7. Your desire to please everyone.
8. Your creativity
9. Your desire to stay in one place / live close to friends and family.
10. Good health

What a silly list. The implication that other fields (professional or not) don't make these sacrifices is crazy.

Seriously, how could anyone possibly think petroleum engineers, actuaries, Army officers, ditch diggers, ibanking finance gunners, nurses, lawyers, teachers, or entrepreneurs get rich changing the world with creative free weekends while pleasing everybody and never moving or feeling like a fool, ever?

 

[UnicornDemon]

No one has said "Actuary," but I like math.

From what I've heard, becoming an actuary requires roughly the same amount of effort as getting through med-school although your ending salary will be around $150k. I've spoken to a few actuaries when considering the career. One went to U Penn and the other went to Duke. Both said the exams were brutally hard. The Duke student was a Math/Econ major with honors and said the exams were harder than any classes he took in undergrad. It took him 7 and a half years to finish and that was on the early side. For most people it takes 8-10 years, unless they give up which many people do.

I figure if I'm gonna do all that work I'm better off going to med-school where at least I'll have a shot at Derm/Rads/etc. and if not I'll still make roughly the same amount as an internist.

 

[Foiegrasrules]

Being an actuary is a great job. It pays well and is in high demand. Typical salary after completing the 8 exams is around 150k. It can be much higher if you seek an executive track and use the financial training to say you have more financial sophistication than a regular accounting background. It's a fair amount of work but not as much work as medical school. It usually takes about 5 years to complete the exams but you usually only take 2 exams a year. It may be hard if you do not like/are good at math but I've never met anyone who tried to enter the field who wasn't good at and liked math. I majored in math at duke and worked as an actuary in Connecticut before med school. Actuarial math is not as difficult as theory heavy undergraduate math and I much preferred mathematical modeling/dynamical systems because although it was harder it was much cooler and actuarial math isn't very sexy. At the end of the day I wasn't happy with what would be my body of work as an actuary and decided to go to medical school. I am very happy that I did this and love anesthesia. I definitely understand why some people like being an actuary and still think its a great job. It just wasn't for me. Enjoying what you do for 30+ years is pretty important. Just figure out what you would like and if that supports the life you want to live (geographically, financially, schedule-wise, family-wise, etc).

 

[Kahreek]

Not many people admit this but medicine takes people who are often very creative and turns them into workaholic, automatons who have little room left in their lives for creativity. If you want evidence for this, go to any dinner party that includes more than one doctor. Chief discussion topic will be work and medicine. That's partly because anecdotes from doctoring are entertaining, but also because if the medics stray from this conversation topic, they will rapidly expose their banality and limited insights in other areas particularly all things creative.

Much of medicine does not allow much creativity in it's day to day practice and the intensity of the work beats any desire for creative thinking right out of you before you even realise it's happening.* Of course whilst accepting this fact you must fight this tendency and attempt to keep up your other interests, otherwise, I can guarantee medicine will invade everything you do.

i agree with this, and i am feeling sad right now, but isnt this how all gorwn up people with jobs outside arts have it any way

 

[pgg]

i agree with this, and i am feeling sad right now, but isnt this how all gorwn up people with jobs outside arts have it any way

I think it's crap.

It's true that residency is a grinding workaholic experience with little room for anything else, but most of the attendings I know (outside of a few surgeons and an understaffed OB department) have lives outside medicine. Wide variety of hobbies, involvement in their kids' lives, music, sports, outdoor recreation, etc.

Just look at this forum. It exists to talk about anesthesia, but it's full of off topic threads on everything from politics to snowboarding to watches to sports to booze to weightlifting to finance and on and on.

One of the great things about anesthesia is how easy it is to just leave the hospital and not have to think about it again until your next workday. No clinic, no continuity of care, no long term patients. There is a TON of time in my life to do things that aren't anesthesia.

Most human beings spend their whole lives scratching out a living from menial work of little consequence. There are fates worse than being an anesthesiologist in the US.

I wouldn't trade this job for anything. Well, maybe if I was talented enough to be a pro athlete, that'd be cool, but I'm not.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

I think it's crap.

It's true that residency is a grinding workaholic experience with little room for anything else, but most of the attendings I know (outside of a few surgeons and an understaffed OB department) have lives outside medicine. Wide variety of hobbies, involvement in their kids' lives, music, sports, outdoor recreation, etc.

Just look at this forum. It exists to talk about anesthesia, but it's full of off topic threads on everything from politics to snowboarding to watches to sports to booze to weightlifting to finance and on and on.

One of the great things about anesthesia is how easy it is to just leave the hospital and not have to think about it again until your next workday. No clinic, no continuity of care, no long term patients. There is a TON of time in my life to do things that aren't anesthesia.

Most human beings spend their whole lives scratching out a living from menial work of little consequence. There are fates worse than being an anesthesiologist in the US.

I wouldn't trade this job for anything. Well, maybe if I was talented enough to be a pro athlete, that'd be cool, but I'm not.

+1 to this.

For those in undergrad having people tell you, "If you think this is hard, just wait until...", let those people have their doom and gloom. I've had people one step above me tell me that the next step will be way worse almost every year. It's not. Some of it is hard, and some of it is not very fun. Sometimes you'll work long hours on not enough sleep.

But I would definitely do it over again. Still an absolutely great choice for me.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I think it's crap.

It's true that residency is a grinding workaholic experience with little room for anything else, but most of the attendings I know (outside of a few surgeons and an understaffed OB department) have lives outside medicine. Wide variety of hobbies, involvement in their kids' lives, music, sports, outdoor recreation, etc.

Just look at this forum. It exists to talk about anesthesia, but it's full of off topic threads on everything from politics to snowboarding to watches to sports to booze to weightlifting to finance and on and on.

One of the great things about anesthesia is how easy it is to just leave the hospital and not have to think about it again until your next workday. No clinic, no continuity of care, no long term patients. There is a TON of time in my life to do things that aren't anesthesia.

Most human beings spend their whole lives scratching out a living from menial work of little consequence. There are fates worse than being an anesthesiologist in the US.

I wouldn't trade this job for anything. Well, maybe if I was talented enough to be a pro athlete, that'd be cool, but I'm not.

So you wouldn't trade your job as an Anesthesiologist to earn 1.5 million as a Gastroenterologist or earn $1 million as a Neurosurgeon? You love this field so much that none of the other specialties which earn twice what this field does couldn't entice you to switch specialties? That's quite impressive. Honestly, I just can't say the same for myself.

 

[Dwindlin]

So you wouldn't trade your job as an Anesthesiologist to earn 1.5 million as a Gastroenterologist or earn $1 million as a Neurosurgeon? You love this field so much that none of the other specialties which earn twice what this field does couldn't entice you to switch specialties? That's quite impressive. Honestly, I just can't say the same for myself.

I realize the question wasn't aimed at me but there is no way in hell I would ever do either of those jobs not matter how much money you were willing to pay me.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I realize the question wasn't aimed at me but there is no way in hell I would ever do either of those jobs not matter how much money you were willing to pay me.

Your statement will have more validity in ten years. Right now you think $200K per year makes you rich. I respect that those other fields wouldn't be your first choice but more time off, a yacht, second home, luxury automobiles, etc have a way of changing opinions over time.

The correlation between Step1 scores and Attending income is no coincidence. The correlation isn't perfect but 0.8 or so is too strong to be mere coincidence. Med Students want to match into those fields where the money and lifestyle are perceived to be the greatest.

I am speaking in generalities here so those of you wanting to save the world on your family's trust fund while not accepting a nickel need not be offended.

 

[Dwindlin]

Your statement will have more validity in ten years. Right now you think $200K per year makes you rich. I respect that those other fields wouldn't be your first choice but more time off, a yacht, second home, luxury automobiles, etc have a way of changing opinions over time.

The correlation between Step1 scores and Attending income is no coincidence. The correlation isn't perfect but 0.8 or so is too strong to be mere coincidence. Med Students want to match into those fields where the money and lifestyle are perceived to be the greatest.

I am speaking in generalities here so those of you wanting to save the world on your family's trust fund while not accepting a nickel need not be offended.

Response I expected. I don't need to live another 10 years to realize how much money that is and what I could do with it. No I do not believe 200k is rich, but it is enough. And yes, I am sure some opinions will change. But suddenly believing that any of that stuff you mentioned (a yacht? really?) are desirable will not be one that does.

 

[pgg]

So you wouldn't trade your job as an Anesthesiologist to earn 1.5 million as a Gastroenterologist or earn $1 million as a Neurosurgeon?

No.

You love this field so much that none of the other specialties which earn twice what this field does couldn't entice you to switch specialties? That's quite impressive. Honestly, I just can't say the same for myself.

A year ago, I was making about $175K from my .mil job plus another $75-100K or so moonlighting. $250K is half or a third what some of you guys are making, and yet it was 'enough' for me to turn down extra work because I preferred to have more time off. My wife is a stay-at-home mom so we don't have a 2nd income. Yet somehow we live well.

I just spent most of the last year sharing a dorm room with another guy, eating in a cafeteria 3x/day, in Afghanistan. No moonlighting there, so I effectively took a large pay cut. It sucked being away from home, yet 30 years from now I think I'll probably still look back on it as some of the most personally and professionally rewarding work I've done.

I make enough money to be happy. My kids are in all the activities they want to do - my gymnast daughter is by far the biggest monetary leech, but it's all money well spent. My dog eats premium dog food and has a shiny coat. The .mil pays me a bit more these days because my contract is a little different, so I'm all the way up to somewhere around $300-350K/year with moonlighting. I'm debt free, retirement accounts are on track to exceed my goals to semi-retire / go part-time around age 55-60, plus I've got the government retirement cheese to look forward to.


Back in ye olden days I was self-employed. I worked from home and was making an absolute killing, admittedly producing nothing of value as I moved electrons to and fro and extracted wealth from the dotcom runup. It was empty, boring, soulless work and I left it for a reason. I'm not sure if I would've survived the dotcom crash or not. I bet I'd have more money today if I hadn't sold out in favor of a medical career.

I liked chemistry, so I guess I could've been a petroleum engineer. Maybe instead of a dorm in Afghanistan I could've spent the last year living in a trailer somewhere in the Bakken oil field.


Today was a very slow day. I put in two labor epidurals and took a ruptured ectopic to the OR. Totally routine, easy, low risk ... simple fun from three simple cases done well. Three lives I touched in a meaningful way. Why on earth would I think cracking heads or scoping butts for some extra money would make me happier?

I feel lucky I somehow conned a med school adcom and my residency PD into letting me do this job.

 

[Silent Cool]

No.




A year ago, I was making about $175K from my .mil job plus another $75-100K or so moonlighting. $250K is half or a third what some of you guys are making, and yet it was 'enough' for me to turn down extra work because I preferred to have more time off. My wife is a stay-at-home mom so we don't have a 2nd income. Yet somehow we live well.

I just spent most of the last year sharing a dorm room with another guy, eating in a cafeteria 3x/day, in Afghanistan. No moonlighting there, so I effectively took a large pay cut. It sucked being away from home, yet 30 years from now I think I'll probably still look back on it as some of the most personally and professionally rewarding work I've done.

I make enough money to be happy. My kids are in all the activities they want to do - my gymnast daughter is by far the biggest monetary leech, but it's all money well spent. My dog eats premium dog food and has a shiny coat. The .mil pays me a bit more these days because my contract is a little different, so I'm all the way up to somewhere around $300-350K/year with moonlighting. I'm debt free, retirement accounts are on track to exceed my goals to semi-retire / go part-time around age 55-60, plus I've got the government retirement cheese to look forward to.


Back in ye olden days I was self-employed. I worked from home and was making an absolute killing, admittedly producing nothing of value as I moved electrons to and fro and extracted wealth from the dotcom runup. It was empty, boring, soulless work and I left it for a reason. I'm not sure if I would've survived the dotcom crash or not. I bet I'd have more money today if I hadn't sold out in favor of a medical career.

I liked chemistry, so I guess I could've been a petroleum engineer. Maybe instead of a dorm in Afghanistan I could've spent the last year living in a trailer somewhere in the Bakken oil field.


Today was a very slow day. I put in two labor epidurals and took a ruptured ectopic to the OR. Totally routine, easy, low risk ... simple fun from three simple cases done well. Three lives I touched in a meaningful way. Why on earth would I think cracking heads or scoping butts for some extra money would make me happier?

I feel lucky I somehow conned a med school adcom and my residency PD into letting me do this job.

pgg,

What did you do before med school? How many years were you in that career?

thanx

btw: Thank you for your service.

 

[Silent Cool]

So you wouldn't trade your job as an Anesthesiologist to earn 1.5 million as a Gastroenterologist or earn $1 million as a Neurosurgeon? You love this field so much that none of the other specialties which earn twice what this field does couldn't entice you to switch specialties? That's quite impressive. Honestly, I just can't say the same for myself.

Blade,

Were you being serious with the #s listed above, or just trying to find someone's breaking point for disgusting (GI) or extremely stressful (neurosurgery) careers?

thanx

 

[Silent Cool]

Your statement will have more validity in ten years. Right now you think $200K per year makes you rich. I respect that those other fields wouldn't be your first choice but more time off, a yacht, second home, luxury automobiles, etc have a way of changing opinions over time.

The correlation between Step1 scores and Attending income is no coincidence. The correlation isn't perfect but 0.8 or so is too strong to be mere coincidence. Med Students want to match into those fields where the money and lifestyle are perceived to be the greatest.

I am speaking in generalities here so those of you wanting to save the world on your family's trust fund while not accepting a nickel need not be offended.

"My best days owning a yacht were: 1) The day I bought it and, 2) The day I sold it."

I completely agree. Yup.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Blade,

Were you being serious with the #s listed above, or just trying to find someone's breaking point for disgusting (GI) or extremely stressful (neurosurgery) careers?

thanx

I don't know how long those incomes will last but those numbers are correct. Owning an outpatient GI center where one captures the revenue from the procedure, the anesthesia and the facility fee is quite lucrative. In fact, very few things in medicine are more lucrative right now than outpatient GI as an owner in the facility.

 

[Monty Python]

...... I just spent most of the last year sharing a dorm room with another guy, eating in a cafeteria 3x/day, in Afghanistan. No moonlighting there, so I effectively took a large pay cut. It sucked being away from home, yet 30 years from now I think I'll probably still look back on it as some of the most personally and professionally rewarding work I've done.

.

BZ.

Caring for special patients, such as this particular one http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=48734 will remain the highest honor and privilege of my career.

 

[pgg]

What did you do before med school? How many years were you in that career?

Started a web design / consulting / hosting business in 1995. Managed servers, resold bandwidth, did a lot of custom CGI and database work for commercial web sites. Shopping carts, content management, ad rotation software, email marketing, customer tracking, that sort of thing. Went full time for a couple years. I liked most of the technical parts of it, but didn't like customers, and I always had job security fears - it's easy to become obsolete in a hurry. So I decided to quit screwing around and be a doctor. When I started med school I basically quit (med school being kind of demanding), but still owned the servers and had the 'autopilot' aspects of it still running. Neat thing about the internet then was the machines could print money while you slept. By about 2000 margins on bandwidth resale were approaching zero, and it was getting hard for the little guy with a small server farm colocated at someone else's datacenter to compete with the monsters who owned everything from the dirt up. Not to mention, I was in med school and couldn't do any side work. I sold off everything and sent my few remaining clients elsewhere about the time the dotcom bubble imploded. Wish I could say I timed it that way, but I was just lucky to get out when I did.

Basically I was a self-employed glorified IT / codemonkey nerd who was in the right place at the right time when everybody with a computer and an AOL dialup account got all starry eyed about their own garage-based internet startup. And just like previous gold rushes, they (the diggers) mostly went bankrupt while people like me (shovel salesmen) made a nice living. For a while.

 

[pgg]

Caring for special patients, such as this particular one http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=48734 will remain the highest honor and privilege of my career.

Totally agree. The majority of our casualties were Afghan Army and Police but we still unfortunately had a lot of US & coalition come through.

Great teams to work with. Nowhere in the US would it be affordable or sustainable to have each trauma bay staffed with an anesthesiologist, surgeon, emergency physician, four nurses (two dedicated to run a Belmont), two techs ... and waiting 10 feet away there's a radiologist standing by to do a FAST exam and read films, orthopedic surgeons waiting to there-is-a-fracture-I-must-fix-it, a neurosurgeon, an ophthalmologist just in case there's also an eye injury, OMFS, pharmacist, blood bank director. There is literally no trauma center in the US I'd rather find myself in if I was injured.

Some incredible cases. We all joked that we should get an ACGME site visit set up so we could all get credit for a trauma fellowship. Some inevitable losses, but great saves too. We had one whose right main bronchus was almost completely torn off his trachea, and a few hours later he was extubated and awake for his flight home. 80%+ BSA burns who were in a US burn unit <24 hours later. A patient who left on ECMO and survived. More GSWs and amputations than I can count, often double or triple (we had no quad amputees during my time there fortunately). And every single time, if the unit was local, as many of them as could cram into the hallways and waiting area would sit there and wait until their buddy was out of surgery, whether it was a 30 minute washout or an 8 hour crani.

The base general made a point of coming to see every casualty in the few hours before we flew them out, whatever time of day. 40+ people stuffed into the ICU or surgical ward to see the Purple Heart ceremony and send off their friend was moving.

Here's one we did with a smaller group in the OR for a patient who wasn't a candidate for extubation, who was going to fly out immediately. We were still finishing up closure so he pinned the medal to the blankets over his feet and posed at that end of the bed for the photo.

The best patient population in the world.

 

[circulus vitios]

From what I've heard, becoming an actuary requires roughly the same amount of effort as getting through med-school although your ending salary will be around $150k. I've spoken to a few actuaries when considering the career. One went to U Penn and the other went to Duke. Both said the exams were brutally hard. The Duke student was a Math/Econ major with honors and said the exams were harder than any classes he took in undergrad. It took him 7 and a half years to finish and that was on the early side. For most people it takes 8-10 years, unless they give up which many people do.

I figure if I'm gonna do all that work I'm better off going to med-school where at least I'll have a shot at Derm/Rads/etc. and if not I'll still make roughly the same amount as an internist.

It's recommended that test takers study a few hundred hours for each of the lower level exams. Entry level actuarial positions typically require the successful completion of first three exams. Since you med students, residents, and attendings are self-styled geniuses who could have made millions in any other industry, you should have no problem breezing through exam P, the first and easiest actuarial exam which has a 30-40% pass rate.

Questions: http://www.beanactuary.org/exams/preliminary/exams/syllabi/ExamPSamplequestions.pdf

Answers: http://www.beanactuary.org/exams/preliminary/exams/syllabi/exampsamplesolutions.pdf