Would 10m liquid assets and being under 50 be enough for you to walk away or would you miss it too much?

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How many silver spoons were in your mouth when you were born?

Median US Income 2024: $44k, Median US Net Worth 2024: ~$200k

Your $17M net worth "middle class" first degree family member is delusional as are you if you think citing him proves something like "$5M doesn't feel like a lot" of money.
$5 million is a good place to start financial independence not a finishing point. That means you don't tap into the $5 million but rather semi retire or "coast" with a part time gig while your nest egg grows. The USA is in big trouble looking 10 years out with a massive national debt exceeding 150% of GDP. That means the US dollar may purchase a lot less in the future and inflation isn't likely going to 2% anytime soon.

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The old rules of 4% withdrawal may not apply in 20 years with the national debt spiraling out of control. I believe it is best to prepare for a drop in purchasing power due to the debt and 3% inflation. I hope that I am wrong but history suggests otherwise. I would recommend you build a nest egg which may withstand the drop in purchasing power as the standard of living for someone being born today in the USA may be lower than yours.
 
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By 2034, the gross federal debt of the United States is projected to be about 54.39 trillion U.S. dollars. This would be an increase of around 21 trillion U.S. dollars from 2023, when the federal debt was around 33 trillion U.S. dollars.


 
This is my main driver to exit. It's all a ridiculous game and the ones who killed themselves their entire lives and gave up their 20-30s to study and stress about getting into med school, usmles, matching, building their attending career, etc somehow end up with decreasing inflation adjusted salaries, increased expectations and quality measures that make no sense, decreasing payments all so those at the top can continue to show massive profits. It's why i've worked 2-3 FTE to get out of this circus and the exit door while still far is somewhat in sight.
I still like going to this circus on a part time basis. Maybe, when you no longer are forced to work a 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0 FTE job you will re-consider the benefits of a gig you actually like to go to 2 days per week or 1 week per month.
 
inflation isn't likely going to 2% anytime soon

What do you mean? We're at 3.1% inflation currently and have been on a downward trend since the Inflation Reduction Act was passed. WOO WOO (That's the Biden Train.)

I think you're the kind of guy who would complain just as much if the national debt was 120% of GDP just as much as 150%. So when it was that high in the 1940's, you would still be doom and gloom about the future of US retirement and dollar value. Famously, the late 40's and 50's were an amazing boom period for most Americans (with notable exceptions) and retiring with $5M equivalent would have been a no brainer. I would take away from that that National Debt is at best incidental to other reasons and not a reason itself to choose a retirement number OR as a predictor of future economic trends.

Anyways, your annual spending is significantly higher than mine for you to consider $5M a "small milestone". You're just in a whole other world with different priorities and goals, which is fine, but don't pretend like you're not in an ultrawealthy bubble.
 
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Coast Fire allows you to scale back considerably while your nest egg grows. Once you reach $5 million in assets that's the prudent thing to do because the economic future may not be as bright as the past.
 
unfortunately 5 million doesn’t feel like a lot.

Like a 400-500k salary doesn’t feel like a lot even for 40 hours with no calls or weekends for anesthesia Especially when u have software new grad engineers with 4 year degrees getting 120-150k to start PLUS bonus which can be 25-100% of their income at age 22-23.

My neighbor is Verizon senior engineer and Verizon is pretty cheap in terms of pay is at the 200k plus other perks. The silicone engineers make a ton more. Of course they can get laid off.

My first degree family member with 17 million excluding the 2.5-3 million dollar home thinks they are middle class!

It’s crazy world we live in.

But than again the dog sitter wants $50 a day to dog sit.

5m liquid is a LOT but obviously "feels" different if half of that is in your house and maybe doesn't feel like a lot in like a VHCOL like in So Cal while your actively trying to pay a mortgage, kids in private school or college and you have expensive monthly car payments?

Change any of those variables which are all temporary even if you didn't leave Cali one would be very comfortable i would imagine? At some point there will be no mortgage, kids college, and car payments. 200k/yr is a lot or 17k/mo to spend on ADLs.

The most i spend in some months even though no kids right now is 12k/mo but half of that goes to house and cars.
 
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5m liquid is a LOT but obviously "feels" different if half of that is in your house and maybe doesn't feel like a lot in like a VHCOL like in So Cal while your actively trying to pay a mortgage, kids in private school or college and you have expensive monthly car payments?

Change any of those variables which are all temporary even if you didn't leave Cali one would be very comfortable i would imagine? At some point there will be no mortgage, kids college, and car payments. 200k/yr is a lot or 17k/mo to spend on ADLs.
Why not build in a cushion? Sure, $5 million may be enough money but this is a good field to keep working if you don't hate your job. If you do hate it, find another job. The real advantage of hitting your "number" like $5 million or $8 million, is the luxury of saying F U to anything you don't like doing. Call? F U.
Weekends? F U Peds? OB? etc. you get the picture. I like going to work at a reduced FTE but I have the option of quitting tomorrow. For others they view this job as mundane or worse. I can tell you one piece of advice is to save up what you can before age 70 because you don't want to have to go back to work because of poor planning.


BUILD IN A CUSHION
 
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The old rules of 4% withdrawal may not apply in 20 years with the national debt spiraling out of control. I believe it is best to prepare for a drop in purchasing power due to the debt and 3% inflation. I hope that I am wrong but history suggests otherwise. I would recommend you build a nest egg which may withstand the drop in purchasing power as the standard of living for someone being born today in the USA may be lower than yours.

Default is the only way. War and chaos is coming. All our assets will be wiped away. Enjoy while you can.
 

Coast Fire allows you to scale back considerably while your nest egg grows. Once you reach $5 million in assets that's the prudent thing to do because the economic future may not be as bright as the past.

1. so what exactly is the end point if 5m is the starting point and we are assuming that number is in 2024 and will only go up from here ?

2. someone living in the midwest with a paid off home/cars/loans and no kids would you still tout 5m liquid is still the starting point in 2024?
 
Why not build in a cushion? Sure, $5 million may be enough money but this is a good field to keep working if you don't hate your job. If you do hate it, find another job. The real advantage of hitting your "number" like $5 million or $8 million, is the luxury of saying F U to anything you don't like doing. Call? F U.
Weekends? F U Peds? OB? etc. you get the picture. I like going to work at a reduced FTE but I have the option of quitting tomorrow. For others they view this job as mundane or worse. I can tell you one piece of advice is to save up what you can before age 70 because you don't want to have to go back to work because of poor planning.


BUILD IN A CUSHION

Ok your more touting building a cushion then being theoretically able to live off on 5m today in 2024. That point i get. It also makes it easier if stocks took a 50% hair cut in the future and you weren't diversified in more of a retirement 60/40 allocation and did something like 100% VTI that you could stomach your brokerage account hovering at 5m instead of 2.5m. That's a valid but mostly psychological issue but point taken.

I do like the idea in the future if i am so lucky to hit some numbers where i am working for pleasure to literally spend my entire paycheck aside from 401k and tax shelters. That would feel like the lottery if doing that on a FTE paycheck.
 
Yup. We more or less are f’ed. Thus living cheap outside a yearly vacay and a couple nice dinners a month. Trying to live like I make 80-100k a year
 
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How many silver spoons were in your mouth when you were born?

Median US Income 2024: $44k, Median US Net Worth 2024: ~$200k

Your $17M net worth "middle class" first degree family member is delusional as are you if you think citing him proves something like "$5M doesn't feel like a lot" of money.
Had nothing. Grew up on wrong side of the tracks. But parents refused food stamps. Just worked 3 jobs the old fashion American way.
5m liquid is a LOT but obviously "feels" different if half of that is in your house and maybe doesn't feel like a lot in like a VHCOL like in So Cal while your actively trying to pay a mortgage, kids in private school or college and you have expensive monthly car payments?

Change any of those variables which are all temporary even if you didn't leave Cali one would be very comfortable i would imagine? At some point there will be no mortgage, kids college, and car payments. 200k/yr is a lot or 17k/mo to spend on ADLs.

The most i spend in some months even though no kids right now is 12k/mo but half of that goes to house and cars.
i don’t count the house especially ur primary home.
 
Had nothing. Grew up on wrong side of the tracks. But parents refused food stamps. Just worked 3 jobs the old fashion American way.

i don’t count the house especially ur primary home.

You and your $17M first degree "middle class" relative forgot your roots.
 
Had nothing. Grew up on wrong side of the tracks. But parents refused food stamps. Just worked 3 jobs the old fashion American way.

i don’t count the house especially ur primary home.
Why not count home in net worth? It's an asset you can sell and turn into cash... Do you then exclude the mortgage in the calculation as well?
 
What do you mean? We're at 3.1% inflation currently and have been on a downward trend since the Inflation Reduction Act was passed. WOO WOO (That's the Biden Train.)

I think you're the kind of guy who would complain just as much if the national debt was 120% of GDP just as much as 150%. So when it was that high in the 1940's, you would still be doom and gloom about the future of US retirement and dollar value. Famously, the late 40's and 50's were an amazing boom period for most Americans (with notable exceptions) and retiring with $5M equivalent would have been a no brainer. I would take away from that that National Debt is at best incidental to other reasons and not a reason itself to choose a retirement number OR as a predictor of future economic trends.

Anyways, your annual spending is significantly higher than mine for you to consider $5M a "small milestone". You're just in a whole other world with different priorities and goals, which is fine, but don't pretend like you're not in an ultrawealthy bubble.

1940s had WWII. What do we have now?

Are you expecting there will be an amazing boom in late 2020s? The deficit becomes surplus?
 
1940s had WWII. What do we have now?

Are you expecting there will be an amazing boom in late 2020s? The deficit becomes surplus?

My point was that the national debt was incidental relative to other factors.

But... the optimist in me does hope AI and the resurgence of American manufacturing usher in another boom period. We'll see.
 
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FWIW...I agree with Blade about retiring with a big portfolio.
Most everyone on this board is younger that 50. I think what everyone needs to take into account is that getting older is getting more expensive. Especially since safety nets like healthcare, insurance, nursing homes, etc are getting so expensive.

These are things that are really going to chew up a portfolio once retired.

Instead of retiring, I plan to work the minimum amount i need to get benefits. Work keeps my mind sharp, I like the people, and when the next orthopedic procedure comes along that i need, i will hopefully have some sort of healthcare plan.
 
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FWIW...I agree with Blade about retiring with a big portfolio.
Most everyone on this board is younger that 50. I think what everyone needs to take into account is that getting older is getting more expensive. Especially since safety nets like healthcare, insurance, nursing homes, etc are getting so expensive.

These are things that are really going to chew up a portfolio once retired.

Instead of retiring, I plan to work the minimum amount i need to get benefits. Work keeps my mind sharp, I like the people, and when the next orthopedic procedure comes along that i need, i will hopefully have some sort of healthcare plan.
Work for VA for 5 years to get fed insurance?
 
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Work for VA for 5 years to get fed insurance?
The Va is perfect for docs or even crnas around age 57. Do 5 years and most
Importantly retire with healthcare benefits subsidized for life.

U must do 5 years and take an immediate retirement. U cannot be say age 50 and get a small
Pension at age 55. U don’t have subsidize healthcare with 5 years. It must be an immediate retirement and that only works with 5 years and age 62 immediate

Or the 20/60 rule. 20 years in system plus age 60.

There are little more variables in the 20/60 rule

But the federal pension payout isn’t good besides the healthcare being subsidize. Major changes were done in 2012 making the payout much worst. Better off investing ur money elsewhere because it’s all post tax money they are taking to fund ur measly pension.
 
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The Va is perfect for docs or even crnas around age 57. Do 5 years and most
Importantly retire with healthcare benefits subsidized for life.

U must do 5 years and take an immediate retirement. U cannot be say age 50 and get a small
Pension at age 55. U don’t have subsidize healthcare with 5 years. It must be an immediate retirement and that only works with 5 years and age 62 immediate

Or the 20/60 rule. 20 years in system plus age 60.

There are little more variables in the 20/60 rule

But the federal pension payout isn’t good besides the healthcare being subsidize. Major changes were done in 2012 making the payout much worst. Better off investing ur money elsewhere because it’s all post tax money they are taking to fund ur measly pension.

I pay for my wife and own health insurance not subsidized and it runs about just under 1k/mo for a high deductible plan and we are in our late 30s no health issues

any ball park on what market place health insurance runs with 2 kids and a couple who is in their 50s..... maybe 2000-3000/mo ?
 
I pay for my wife and own health insurance not subsidized and it runs about just under 1k/mo for a high deductible plan and we are in our late 30s no health issues

any ball park on what market place health insurance runs with 2 kids and a couple who is in their 50s..... maybe 2000-3000/mo ?
Correct. U can play around with the numbers and adjust the ages on marketplaces.

Paying 24-30k a year plus 10k plus deductible can be cost prohibitive for 90% of the general population at age 60 to be have potentially 40k a year in healthcare expenses . That’s why it’s hard to retire.

The deductible will kill ur budget. More at age 60 than age 35.
 
I pay for my wife and own health insurance not subsidized and it runs about just under 1k/mo for a high deductible plan and we are in our late 30s no health issues

any ball park on what market place health insurance runs with 2 kids and a couple who is in their 50s..... maybe 2000-3000/mo ?
Yes, $3,000 with a large deductible up to $5,000 per month. One of the biggest reasons you should consider part time work is a healthcare plan
For me that’s the number one reason I’m still working as much as I am today. My healthcare plan is worth $5,500 on the exchange and I’m not eligible for a subsidy. Can I afford $5,500 per month? Yes. Do I want to spend 1/3 of my retirement budget on a healthcare plan? No
 
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FWIW...I agree with Blade about retiring with a big portfolio.
Most everyone on this board is younger that 50. I think what everyone needs to take into account is that getting older is getting more expensive. Especially since safety nets like healthcare, insurance, nursing homes, etc are getting so expensive.

These are things that are really going to chew up a portfolio once retired.

Instead of retiring, I plan to work the minimum amount i need to get benefits. Work keeps my mind sharp, I like the people, and when the next orthopedic procedure comes along that i need, i will hopefully have some sort of healthcare plan.
Many on this board haven’t truly factored in all the costs they will be absorbing once retired. The smart decision is to keep working at a level so your benefits like healthcare are still in place or you have access to a quality plan at a reasonable price.
 
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Why not count home in net worth? It's an asset you can sell and turn into cash... Do you then exclude the mortgage in the calculation as well?
I don’t count my personal residence in my retirement portfolio because I need a place to live. Second and third homes or rental properties do count in the portfolio. I separate total net worth from my retirement portfolio because net worth includes my home. You can’t spend your primary home but you can sell rental properties or second homes. If your plan is to downsize from 1.7 million to 1 million then you certainly could add 700,000 to your retirement portfolio.
 
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Default is the only way. War and chaos is coming. All our assets will be wiped away. Enjoy while you can.
More likely is the printing of dollars continues with the Fed buying up the debt. This leads to a devalued currency and higher inflation. The US govt continues to honor its debts but the dollar isn’t worth much in terms of buying power. The middle class becomes a lot poorer and that $5 million becomes 2 million in terms of purchasing power.
 
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More likely is the printing of dollars continues with the Fed buying up the debt. This leads to a devalued currency and higher inflation. The US govt continues to honor its debts but the dollar isn’t worth much in terms of buying power. The middle class becomes a lot poorer and that $5 million becomes 2 million in terms of purchasing power.
So you moved your money to TIPS?
 
Many on this board haven’t truly factored in all the costs they will be absorbing once retired. The smart decision is to keep working at a level so your benefits like healthcare are still in place or you have access to a quality plan at a reasonable price.
but youll be getting medicare for very low cost, youll be getting maximum social security, you wont really need to contribute to 401k - i dont see benefits as important beyond medicare age.. per diem work maybe with benefits in cash

once you hit medicare and SS age it makes sense to work part time if at all
 
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but youll be getting medicare for very low cost, youll be getting maximum social security, you wont really need to contribute to 401k - i dont see benefits as important beyond medicare age.. per diem work maybe with benefits in cash
Blade is talking those in the age 55-65 range. Who don’t have Medicare

Plus add many docs marry spouses (wives) 2-10 years younger. That’s another factor for the spouse to get healthcare
 
Blade is talking those in the age 55-65 range. Who don’t have Medicare

Plus add many docs marry spouses (wives) 2-10 years younger. That’s another factor for the spouse to get healthcare

too bad suggesting that the spouse who is younger could work a bit longer and maybe have health insurance doesn't exactly go over well in the real world.

all this talk of health insurance is depressing. I'll shoot for 500k-1m more to my numbers with a 3-4% withdrawal rate just to cover health insurance if for some reason im fully not working. Problem solved.
 
too bad suggesting that the spouse who is younger could work a bit longer and maybe have health insurance doesn't exactly go over well in the real world.

all this talk of health insurance is depressing. I'll shoot for 500k-1m more to my numbers with a 3-4% withdrawal rate just to cover health insurance if for some reason im fully not working. Problem solved.
Many employers offer healthcare at 0.5 FTE. Everything is negotiable even if you pay your employer the full cost of healthcare around 18,000-21,000 per year.
 
but youll be getting medicare for very low cost, youll be getting maximum social security, you wont really need to contribute to 401k - i dont see benefits as important beyond medicare age.. per diem work maybe with benefits in cash

once you hit medicare and SS age it makes sense to work part time if at all
I’ll only be working 17 weeks or less total per year as I approach Medicare. I’m pretty sure 35 weeks of PTO allows a lot of time off for travel or activities. Why work at all? Because I want to
 
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some food for thought as well
View attachment 384167

Once you hit your number, add in a million for a cushion, plus reduce the withdrawal rate to 3 percent. This way you have secured your retirement so you no longer need to work another day and you will likely die with a larger portfolio than the day you retired.
 

#2 Huge Portfolios

Tons of retirees have “oversaved” with regard to their actual need to spend. They are perfectly comfortable and content to spend less than they could be safely spending. Katie and I wouldn't be anywhere close to a 4% withdrawal rate if we quit working right now, and we're still working and probably will be for a while. Lots of people don't quit just as soon as they have “enough.”


The guy who owns WCI is gifting his kids $5 million over the next few years. He has a huge net worth as his website generates a lot of cash each month. I suspect his net worth is in the $35-40 million range as of today.
 
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too bad suggesting that the spouse who is younger could work a bit longer and maybe have health insurance doesn't exactly go over well in the real world.

all this talk of health insurance is depressing. I'll shoot for 500k-1m more to my numbers with a 3-4% withdrawal rate just to cover health insurance if for some reason im fully not working. Problem solved.
Psychology says people don’t want To spend 30k on health insurance premiums alone plus the deductible. Because there is no benefit to them.

It would piss me off also people getting Medicaid and paying zero if I’m 60 and paying $3000 a month plus deductible post tax while others pay nothing
 
I like the idea of letting my money accumulate in the market for now, and then when I am 60-65 buying a single payment immediate annuity with a good chunk of it. Pensions make things so much smoother IMO
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Single Payment Immediate Annuity based on $100,000. There is no index for inflation (payments don't change). Return of the annuity purchased at age 60 with a life expectancy of 83 is 1.84%. If you live to age 88 the return is 3.07%.
 
This seems way low. Maybe a since income PCP.

We are beyond the age 55 # and not 40 yet.

I mean thats like 50k/yr total invested if we assume 7 percent returns for 30 years you have about 5m. My pcp friends and hospitalists all make 300-400k depending if they want call, moonlighting etc. Call me naive but i just assumed everyone who somewhat cares about investing and retirement with that salary range is putting away in 2024 69k for solo 401k, 8300 for hsa, and 14k for husband and wife roth's. So 77k of that 91k is tax deductible even if they dont save anything else it's a tax savings. Maybe people don't' know. on a 350k salary even if you took only 70k of that which is tax deductible you have 200k to spend on everything else. :shrug:
 
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I’ll only be working 17 weeks or less total per year as I approach Medicare. I’m pretty sure 35 weeks of PTO allows a lot of time off for travel or activities. Why work at all? Because I want to

You've more than likely already hit the milestones I hope to someday and then some. Do you still do 401k deductions, hsa, roth at this point in your career? Do you have any regrets of not going to the 1 wk on and 2 wks off type of set up a few years earlier? I am guessing you are 25 years minimum in the field.
 
You've more than likely already hit the milestones I hope to someday and then some. Do you still do 401k deductions, hsa, roth at this point in your career? Do you have any regrets of not going to the 1 wk on and 2 wks off type of set up a few years earlier? I am guessing you are 25 years minimum in the field.
I am 30+ years in this field and have enough to retire comfortably tomorrow. I work because I want to and not because I have to. I have a reduced working schedule and more work available if I choose to schedule it. I like my time off. I still do a 401K deduction because its available to me. I no longer bother with an HSA or Roth but I certainly recommend them and have used them for many years. I just can't see myself retiring completely because I still like going into work but at the same time, I can't see myself ever returning to a 1.0 FTE regardless of what my investments do.
 
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Early Retirement Is Still Possible

I recently retired from the practice of emergency medicine at the age of 53, and I was asked to write about how I managed that. A bit of it was luck (bad luck, actually), most of it was common sense, and most of it can be found in The 10 Commandments Of The White Coat Investor. I also want to tell you why I did it, but first things first


Money may not bring happiness but it does bring freedom, and freedom is pretty damn good.
 
Human emotion is such a powerful force in terms of feeling secure. Yes it is not logical but you often cannot quiet the beast. Blade is correct. The dilemma that is faced is that when you earn with little effort (ie you've mastered the craft and nothing fazes you in anesthesia) it is a challenge to fully cut off. It's just so easy to have an ez income stream that get's you health insurance paid, etc.

It is psychologically a very different place to be in when you eat into your net worth (no matter how big). You go from a mentality of surplus to one of scarcity. Doesn't make logical sense often but that's not what you are dealing with. It's not logic, it's emotional.

Kind of like how so many people delude themselves that they won't sell during a bear market. That they will hang in . Sadly the evidence shows otherwise. That's why us old farts always warn the young about down markets. Because we've faced that boogeyman before. We know what it is to be punched in the face.
 
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I’m coining a new FIRE term I call “earn and burn.” It’s what you do when you’re 58 and have achieved FI but aren’t ready to quit. You work as much as you want but you have to blow all the income. Yacht charters, heli skiing, etc.
 
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