Would you do it over again?

[saratoga733]

Yeah, I'm sure that if you're getting paid $200K+ as an engineer, you're probably working a 9-5 set of hours with no one telling you what to do or when your projects need to get done...

The grass is always greener.

it's good to know the engineers also have to answer to halfwit bureaucrats with little to no engineering knowledge... makes me feel better.

g-d forbid the engineers forget to give antibiotics the next time they try to save someone with a ruptured aortic aneurysm at 2 AM. no payment from medicare for you!

the grass is not only greener but has pretty roses as well...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[countingdays]

it's good to know the engineers also have to answer to halfwit bureaucrats with little to no engineering knowledge... makes me feel better.

g-d forbid the engineers forget to give antibiotics the next time they try to save someone with a ruptured aortic aneurysm at 2 AM. no payment from medicare for you!

the grass is not only greener but has pretty roses as well...

The engineers start getting paid when they are 22 still, right?
That's enough even if mba and government imbeciles dictate their engineering decisions.

 

[deleted307836]

One of my friends just graduated with an engineering degree at 22 years old. She was offered a great job at a highly reputable company and will be compensated highly. I'm really happy for her.

Compare her to someone going right to medical school from college - she has about a decade head start on retirement saving.

Know what though? No way I could be an engineer. It's just not who I am. I'm with pgg in that SDN greatly exaggerates the alternatives of potential medical students. I'm sure there are many med students/physicians that would have succeeded in engineering, ibanking, business, whatever. I'm probably not one of them, and medicine is probably the most lucrative realistic path for me to follow given my personal circumstances and aptitudes. And even if it's not, there's not much else I would want to do other than being a clinician. Of course the future of health care is very turbulent - it's just not as simple as pointing people considering the profession into what's currently lucrative for some other people.

My point in mentioning my friend - if you have the aptitude and predilection for something like engineering -- go for it as it probably is a great option for you. Avoiding the opportunity cost associated with medicine would be icing on the cake.

 

[FiremedicMike]

At a lower level (fire based EMS and flight medic) I'm already *IN* healthcare. It's not a matter of getting out or not getting into healthcare, it's a matter of moving up. I don't want to be at the bottom tier anymore. I want to know and do more. I don't want to be in cigarette smoke filled filthy houses at 3am (which is probably my 3rd run after midnight) anymore, I don't want to work 24 hour shifts every third day anymore. I've been at this for 15 years now, I'm over it.

The question for me is (and I honestly don't want this to turn into an NP vs MD or CRNA vs anesthesiologist thread) is whether the extra time in school and money invested to go to medical school is worth it. I do know that being an RN doesn't really interest me. I'd do it as a means to an end for CRNA or NP but I wouldn't want to stay one. I've looked at PA and AA, but they are underutilized in Ohio and don't make a whole lot more than what I make now.

Anyhow I'm done rambling, I appreciate the responses thus far.

 

[BLADEMDA]

At a lower level (fire based EMS and flight medic) I'm already *IN* healthcare. It's not a matter of getting out or not getting into healthcare, it's a matter of moving up. I don't want to be at the bottom tier anymore. I want to know and do more. I don't want to be in cigarette smoke filled filthy houses at 3am (which is probably my 3rd run after midnight) anymore, I don't want to work 24 hour shifts every third day anymore. I've been at this for 15 years now, I'm over it.

The question for me is (and I honestly don't want this to turn into an NP vs MD or CRNA vs anesthesiologist thread) is whether the extra time in school and money invested to go to medical school is worth it. I do know that being an RN doesn't really interest me. I'd do it as a means to an end for CRNA or NP but I wouldn't want to stay one. I've looked at PA and AA, but they are underutilized in Ohio and don't make a whole lot more than what I make now.

Anyhow I'm done rambling, I appreciate the responses thus far.

CRNA route:

Get your Bachelor's degree finished now.
Accelerated BSN= 15-18 months
Critical care= 12 months
CRNA School= 28 months

Total: 5 years

MD:

1. Medical School- 4 years
2. Residency- 4 years
3. Fellowship?- 1 year

Total: 9 years

 

[FiremedicMike]

CRNA route:

Get your Bachelor's degree finished now.
Accelerated BSN= 15-18 months
Critical care= 12 months
CRNA School= 28 months

Total: 5 years

MD:

1. Medical School- 4 years
2. Residency- 4 years
3. Fellowship?- 1 year

Total: 9 years

Actually, it's a little worse than that for me..

3-4 semesters to go on my bachelors, depending on how hard I hit it., so 1.5 years. Oh and my bachelors is in public safety admin. I managed to squeak all my math into that degree and have it signed off for loans, but they're not budging on science, so it's more like

CRNA

1.3 years for bachelors
1 year for chem/a&p
1 year for RN/BSN
1 year critical care (unless I can demonstrate to them that, by then, I'll have 4 years as a flight medic, tweaking vents and managing pressors)
2-4 years CRNA (is this 4 year doctorate of CRNA coming or what?)

6-8 years

Direct entry ACNP

1.3 years for bachelors
4 years at Ohio State for ACNP

5.3 years

MD/DO

1.3 years for bachelors
1.5-2.5 years for remaining prereqs
4 years med school
4 years residency

10-12 years.

Wow, that's actually the first time I've laid that out.. Of course I need to add another year to the ACNP plan simply because I won't hit my 15 years in the pension when I'm ready to join, but still.. Wow..

Edit to add: saying that was the first time I laid that out makes me seem underprepared. I had ballpark estimates for those figures, but wasn't sweating it until I finished my bachelors..

 

[BLADEMDA]

DNAP is a 36 month degree. Masters CRNA is 28 months.

If you the med school route how old will you be after completing a 4 year residency?

 

[gasattack3]

If I had a time and youth machine, I wouldn't relive my life exactly as I have, that would be boring. I know, that's not really what you're asking.

If I was about to finish undergrad now, I'd still probably go to medical school. It may not be the sure path to wealth it once was, but it's still a sure path to a secure and high paying job that, oh by the way, is interesting rewarding and useful. I'd make a point of going to the cheapest state medical school I could and minimizing debt.

I'd still do anesthesia because the actual job is wonderful. I'm not sure I could gut out an IM residency to get to cardiology on the other side. No desire to be a surgeon. I might be able to do path or rads. Anesthesia fits me perfectly.

I really don't fear CRNA competition, or unemployment, or the notion of salaries cratering to primary care poverty levels. There are worse things in life than making $250-300K as an anesthesiologist, though sometimes you wouldn't know it by reading this forum.


I think the notion that the average (or even above-average) med school matriculant could have just as easily rolled over into a lucrative i-banking job or tech startup or other entrepreneurial rocketship to wealth is one of the more laughable grass-is-greener recurrent SDN fantasies. Brains and hard work will get you far, but those fields are littered with the corpses of also-rans.

I agree 100%. It's Fantasy Island to assume that the average med student "could have" succeeded amongst the ranks of high performing, successful, high finance dudes. Some could for sure. But, not the average or, like you state, even above average. No way.


Whatever makes you feel better though.......

I think as a general rule, to navigate this economy takes a lot more than it did 30 years ago. I've spoken to many many people across a wide range of industries/professions, and most will agree with this.

Across MOST fields, we have more barriers to entry (higher capital cost, red tape, legal issues), less natural growth (at least for now), weaker profit margins, and generally less opportunity for younger dudes to have the types of opportunities that prior generations have had, at least the past few decades. Today, you have to be better, smarter, and work harder in MOST fields, and even still you may not earn as much or have as many opportunities for advancement and growth than your current boss in his 50's had. I'm not trying to be a downer, but most people who look at things objectively would agree this is true, with some exceptions.

 

[BobBarker]

Stop the work on your current degree. Work on a BSN.

 

[gasattack3]

One of my friends just graduated with an engineering degree at 22 years old. She was offered a great job at a highly reputable company and will be compensated highly. I'm really happy for her.

Compare her to someone going right to medical school from college - she has about a decade head start on retirement saving.

Know what though? No way I could be an engineer. It's just not who I am. I'm with pgg in that SDN greatly exaggerates the alternatives of potential medical students. I'm sure there are many med students/physicians that would have succeeded in engineering, ibanking, business, whatever. I'm probably not one of them, and medicine is probably the most lucrative realistic path for me to follow given my personal circumstances and aptitudes. And even if it's not, there's not much else I would want to do other than being a clinician. Of course the future of health care is very turbulent - it's just not as simple as pointing people considering the profession into what's currently lucrative for some other people.

My point in mentioning my friend - if you have the aptitude and predilection for something like engineering -- go for it as it probably is a great option for you. Avoiding the opportunity cost associated with medicine would be icing on the cake.

My brother is a YOUNG vice president of construction (he's the guy) for a 150 million/year construction company. Just got the promotion. My brother is an excellent construction guy. He played to his skill set. His innate abilities. His industry REQUIRES his strengths. However, objectively, he would likely NOT have been successful in some other fields.

Playing to your strengths is critical if you want to succeed in this economy.

 

[yappy]

If I could do it all over again I would be a musician in a band like Red Hot Chili Peppers - rockin n' rolling for 20+ years. Dang it... why did I choose healthcare when I could have done that

Engineering is great until you turn 50... after that age you're either management or unemployed.

@gasattack - I agree. Twice as much effort to go half as far (if everyone works out perfect).

 

[FiremedicMike]

DNAP is a 36 month degree. Masters CRNA is 28 months.

If you the med school route how old will you be after completing a 4 year residency?

45-47ish..

Vs probably 40 for ACNP and 43-45 for CRNA..

 

[yappy]

45-47ish..

Vs probably 40 for ACNP and 43-45 for CRNA..

If I were you I would stay with the FD until I got into a CRNA program. Work for the FD while studying in a RN program, gain ICU exp while also working for the FD, then jump ship for the CRNA program. That way you minimize income loss.

If you have a position with the FD, as your name suggests, why not try to become an executive officer in the FD? You will most likely come out further ahead financially, have authority, and still be able to collect that sweet pension.

 

[FiremedicMike]

If I were you I would stay with the FD until I got into a CRNA program. Work for the FD while studying in a RN program, gain ICU exp while also working for the FD, then jump ship for the CRNA program. That way you minimize income loss.

If you have a position with the FD, as your name suggests, why not try to become an executive officer in the FD? You will most likely come out further ahead financially, have authority, and still be able to collect that sweet pension.

I'm just done with the fire service. On paper, it's a terrible move. I'm make a good amount of money, have ok insurance, and a decent retirement. But I just can't do it much longer. It's not really something I can articulate very well to someone who's never worked in the fire service, but it's just horribly unsatisfying to me at this point. I've thought about other departments, going for promotion (executive fire officer is still just a promotion or series of promotions within my own department and brings even bigger headaches), or just sticking it out, and it's just not the right fit.

I keep coming back to CRNA/ACNP for the exact reasons you stated. It's really the only route that allows me to continue where i am until day 1 of 3-4 year school as opposed to day 1 of 8 year school.

 

[countingdays]

I agree 100%. It's Fantasy Island to assume that the average med student "could have" succeeded amongst the ranks of high performing, successful, high finance dudes. Some could for sure. But, not the average or, like you state, even above average. No way.


Whatever makes you feel better though.......

I think as a general rule, to navigate this economy takes a lot more than it did 30 years ago. I've spoken to many many people across a wide range of industries/professions, and most will agree with this.

Across MOST fields, we have more barriers to entry (higher capital cost, red tape, legal issues), less natural growth (at least for now), weaker profit margins, and generally less opportunity for younger dudes to have the types of opportunities that prior generations have had, at least the past few decades. Today, you have to be better, smarter, and work harder in MOST fields, and even still you may not earn as much or have as many opportunities for advancement and growth than your current boss in his 50's had. I'm not trying to be a downer, but most people who look at things objectively would agree this is true, with some exceptions.

I disagree 100%. You can make significantly less money and be better off financially by entering the workforce 8-10 years earlier. In particular, you'd be better off in your 20's and 30's when the extra money and better hours would translate into more interesting life experince vs spending countless hours with your nose in a book or writing useless progress notes.

 

[partydoc]

I disagree 100%. You can make significantly less money and be better off financially by entering the workforce 8-10 years earlier. In particular, you'd be better off in your 20's and 30's when the extra money and better hours would translate into more interesting life experince vs spending countless hours with your nose in a book or writing useless progress notes.

As I sit here writing useless progress notes...

 

[guest]

My wife is a fellow in peds anesthesia.
I'm a dentist.

The grass always seems greener. I've been a dentist for 6 years. My loans are paid off. My wife's loans are paid off, I paid her tuition her last two years in med school. I make 350k/year working for a corporation and I work roughly 36 hrs a week.But I didn't start there, I started at 150k. I take off days here and there and have "2 weeks" vacation. I have two hour lunches too often and I'm surfing the web way too much at work. And yes there are dentists in our company who'll clear a million. Definitely outliers.

Now the bad side. I'm almost like a salesman. I have to convince people to have their cavities filled. Their cracked teeth need crowns. I hear things like "My insurance ran out". We have to deal with 1000$/yr maximums. That's 1 crown. Most things in dentistry are for the most part... elective. So much of our success depends on our people skills, skills to sale, skills to lead and manage a small office. Because some of the unsuccessful dentists will be lucky to make 120K, and some really charismatic ones will clear 1 million.

I don't feel the same respect as some of the MDs get. It's just not as sexy to say I'm a dentist than to say I'm a Physician. God, you guys have a TV shows glamorizing the profession, ER, Grey's Anatomy... Let's face it there's a prestige and sexiness to being a Doctor.

If I had to do it again. I would seriously consider going to MED school and becoming a heart surgeon or something crazy like that.

 

[ssmallz]

Would I do it over again? Yes.....I think medicine is a great career and one of the few places where you are still guaranteed a good paying, relatively stable job. Would I choose anesthesia? No way, at least not unless you want to go into pain. The whole OR system is such a grind and a real burnout just look at most of the nurses, surgeons, and anesthesiologists. Burnt out and overworked. The nights, weekends, and holidays will really catch up to you and no matter how hard you try you will always be at the mercy of someone else. If you do medicine, pick a field where you have your own patients and one where you don't have to deal w/emergencies.

There's a lot of med vs dentistry in this thread but I think the above poster said it very well. Dentistry is much more dependent on market forces then medicine b/c at the end of the day, it's mostly elective and cash based. Defiantly no small point to consider when making the argument for or against.

 

[ihearttriangles]

I'm just done with the fire service. On paper, it's a terrible move. I'm make a good amount of money, have ok insurance, and a decent retirement. But I just can't do it much longer. It's not really something I can articulate very well to someone who's never worked in the fire service, but it's just horribly unsatisfying to me at this point. I've thought about other departments, going for promotion (executive fire officer is still just a promotion or series of promotions within my own department and brings even bigger headaches), or just sticking it out, and it's just not the right fit.

I keep coming back to CRNA/ACNP for the exact reasons you stated. It's really the only route that allows me to continue where i am until day 1 of 3-4 year school as opposed to day 1 of 8 year school.

I think you need to be crystal clear on why you want to leave the fire service. You mentioned being up at 3am and having to work every third day (we are talking Kelly schedule here, right?) but I'm pretty sure in order to pay off all the massive debt you will likely accrue in medical school that you will have to work significantly more hours as a physician than as a medic. I mean, I completely know where you are coming from. I only lasted 5 years as a medic and at the end I think I was seriously starting to lose my @#$t. However, being a medic has got to be one of the coolest jobs in medicine. I didn't realize how much autonomy you have, even though I always thought I had none, working in the streets. It's just you and your partner/crew. And you do the coolest stuff (run codes/manage crumping CHFers/intubate people with GSWs to the head) all the while zipping around the ghetto at 3am and banging hot nurses from all the different ERs. You have minimal paperwork (compared to being a doc) and you can work anywhere you want. Pretty freaking cool job! I know you have put in almost 15 years and are probably over it all but maybe try taking a break and doing something administrative to see if you can re-energize yourself.
And if you are absolutely set on "moving up" in the medical hierarchy, make sure you are also really clear on what you want. You want to know more? Just a little more (PA/NP/CRNA) or a lot more (MD). Did you ever have a base hospital nurse get in your way of delivering good patient care? I did and it used to drive me absolutely freakin nuts. I swear that is one of the main reasons I chose medical school over PA school. I didn't want someone else to tell me how to manage my patients (of course people will point out how administrators do exactly this but it's better for MDs than it is for anyone else in healthcare). Also, ask yourself if you enjoy learing/being in school. If you do then it doesn't really matter how old you are cause you will be enjoying your life.
PM me if you have any questions.

 

[FiremedicMike]

Just a couple of points, then if people think I'm derailing here and would like us to take it to PM, I'd be happy to do so.

1. I'm now at 12.5 years full time in a lower class neighborhood. Yes the occasional run is still "fun", but they're quickly becoming essentially "not worth it".. I'm not sure how busy your truck was, but when I started at my single station department in 2001, we were taking about 4500 runs between our 2 medics and engine. Last year we took 7100 runs, this year we're on track to beat that. It's almost oppressively busy, and as a single station department, I will never have the opportunity to transfer to a slower truck.

2. Between my part time flight medic and full time fire/EMS jobs, I'm averaging about 100 hrs a week as it is. Sure would be nice to triple/quadruple my salary for the same hours worked. I'm not pretending I won't be up at 3am as a doctor (or CRNA or ACNP), but I won't be up at 3am in a smokey crack house.

3. I really do love learning. I love a good ass-kicking final exam, a single math problem that takes 20 minutes to solve, opening up my eyes to the science. I've always excelled in school, because I enjoy it.

4. I do wonder if I would eventually feel the same desire to "move up" if I were a CRNA or ACNP, but I'm just not sure MD is realistic for me, given my age and age of my children..

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

My dad is an OR nurse, and I respect the hell out of him (and my mom, who was a teacher). I grew up comfortably, both my parents were able to come to the vast majority of my sporting events in high school, and just in general were around and supportive as I was growing up.

So, at times, I look to the future and wonder if I'm going to be able to do the same for my kids, and occasionally wonder if maybe I wouldn't have been better going down an easier route with more free time.

But deep down, if I had gone that route, I know that I would end up wondering whether or not I could have done something more, and it would slowly eat me up. That's probably me just being insecure, but I think everyone that goes through medical school has a little bit of that drive/motivation.

For the record, I think anesthesia is really cool and (mostly) fun. I would definitely do it again. Plus, rounding on all the Axis II patients that are populating our Acute Pain consult list makes me appreciate how glad I am that I don't have to deal with the crazies on a long-term basis.

 

[Monty Python]

Sometimes the grass is greener. If Orthodontics wasn't lucrative they couldn't keep charging $156,000 for the 24 month residency. But, the future of that field looks bright because Obamacare won't be mandating the fee reimbursement. The free market determines it.

I hope you young people really understand the economics of medicine going forward. I honestly don't think most of you realize just how severely Obamacare will likely impact Anesthesiology. . Or, just how hard this field can be on your body over several decades of night call.

I was able to return to school recently to get dual MHA and MBA degrees. Blade is 110% correct. Those business degrees give a person an expanded way of analyzing and understanding how/why things work the way they do. Interesting, my father as a dentist and always steered me away from following in his footsteps. He was unhappy as a solo practice general dentist. No social interaction at work ( hard for pts to talk with someone's hands on their mouth), always having to badger pts to pay their bills, and knowing that no one looks forward to coming to your office for your services. Dentists and shrinks have high rates of suicide.

 

[guest]

I was able to return to school recently to get dual MHA and MBA degrees. Blade is 110% correct. Those business degrees give a person an expanded way of analyzing and understanding how/why things work the way they do. Interesting, my father as a dentist and always steered me away from following in his footsteps. He was unhappy as a solo practice general dentist. No social interaction at work ( hard for pts to talk with someone's hands on their mouth), always having to badger pts to pay their bills, and knowing that no one looks forward to coming to your office for your services. Dentists and shrinks have high rates of suicide.

I did want to point out that some of these things have been taken over by DSOs (Dental service organization). Better known as "Corporate dentistry." A lot of dentists will argue that they are not good for dentistry. But it does take away the billing and business aspect out of dentistry. And dentists in the same company will hang out at meetings and lunches and what not. I work next door to another dentist and I talk to her everyday... Although I'll talk to my staff more. I believe my 5 min chit chat with the patients is enough. My wife actually prefers not to talk too much to patients and that's why she went into anesthesia.

I believe the dentists suicide thing has been debunked. The dentists I talk to in our company are very happy people.

At the end of the day, I'm going to encourage my kids to do whatever they want, but I would definitely recommend both dentistry and medicine. Dentistry has been good to me and I'm sure anesthesia will be good for my wife. We can't lose sight that anesthesia and dentistry, both provide incredible 6-figure salaries and sometimes 7-figures. And we can work a schedule that is conducive to raising a family. I did give up my early 20s but, I feel that it was great being a professional student!

 

[deleted307836]

Overall, the suicide rate for dentists is lower than for physicians. Though it's kind of a silly metric to really base anything off anyway.

 

[Monty Python]

I did want to point out that some of these things have been taken over by DSOs (Dental service organization). Better known as "Corporate dentistry." A lot of dentists will argue that they are not good for dentistry. But it does take away the billing and business aspect out of dentistry. And dentists in the same company will hang out at meetings and lunches and what not. I work next door to another dentist and I talk to her everyday... Although I'll talk to my staff more. I believe my 5 min chit chat with the patients is enough. My wife actually prefers not to talk too much to patients and that's why she went into anesthesia.

I believe the dentists suicide thing has been debunked. The dentists I talk to in our company are very happy people.

At the end of the day, I'm going to encourage my kids to do whatever they want, but I would definitely recommend both dentistry and medicine. Dentistry has been good to me and I'm sure anesthesia will be good for my wife. We can't lose sight that anesthesia and dentistry, both provide incredible 6-figure salaries and sometimes 7-figures. And we can work a schedule that is conducive to raising a family. I did give up my early 20s but, I feel that it was great being a professional student!

My dad practiced in the 1950s-very early 1980s, back when it was essentially solo practice, store-front type of locations. He had to run his own office, handle the business aspects (which he hated) with one office worker. His thoughts might be different under today's DSOs, as you mention above. And as he related to me more than once, the dentist suicide issue was more commonplace in those days, under his practice circumstances. Glad to see that's hopefully also changed in present day.

 

[yappy]

I was able to return to school recently to get dual MHA and MBA degrees. Blade is 110% correct. Those business degrees give a person an expanded way of analyzing and understanding how/why things work the way they do. Interesting, my father as a dentist and always steered me away from following in his footsteps. He was unhappy as a solo practice general dentist. No social interaction at work ( hard for pts to talk with someone's hands on their mouth), always having to badger pts to pay their bills, and knowing that no one looks forward to coming to your office for your services. Dentists and shrinks have high rates of suicide.

As opposed to an anesthesiologist or any other type of physician. It's fun going somewhere I may die

I don't mind going to my dentist. He's funny, it doesn't hurt much, and the hygiene girl is hot. People are also friendly and welcoming. Have you ever been in a hospital? It's the opposite of everything I just said.

EDIT: Firemedicmike - sounds like you will be happy as an MD. Just for it if that's what you really want (IMO).

 

[guest]

As opposed to an anesthesiologist or any other type of physician. It's fun going somewhere I may die

I don't mind going to my dentist. He's funny, it doesn't hurt much, and the hygiene girl is hot. People are also friendly and welcoming. Have you ever been in a hospital? It's the opposite of everything I just said.

EDIT: Firemedicmike - sounds like you will be happy as an MD. Just for it if that's what you really want (IMO).

some nurses are quite hot...

 

[Consigliere]

My wife is a fellow in peds anesthesia.
I'm a dentist.

The grass always seems greener. I've been a dentist for 6 years. My loans are paid off. My wife's loans are paid off, I paid her tuition her last two years in med school. I make 350k/year working for a corporation and I work roughly 36 hrs a week.But I didn't start there, I started at 150k. I take off days here and there and have "2 weeks" vacation. I have two hour lunches too often and I'm surfing the web way too much at work. And yes there are dentists in our company who'll clear a million. Definitely outliers.

Now the bad side. I'm almost like a salesman. I have to convince people to have their cavities filled. Their cracked teeth need crowns. I hear things like "My insurance ran out". We have to deal with 1000$/yr maximums. That's 1 crown. Most things in dentistry are for the most part... elective. So much of our success depends on our people skills, skills to sale, skills to lead and manage a small office. Because some of the unsuccessful dentists will be lucky to make 120K, and some really charismatic ones will clear 1 million.

I don't feel the same respect as some of the MDs get. It's just not as sexy to say I'm a dentist than to say I'm a Physician. God, you guys have a TV shows glamorizing the profession, ER, Grey's Anatomy... Let's face it there's a prestige and sexiness to being a Doctor.

If I had to do it again. I would seriously consider going to MED school and becoming a heart surgeon or something crazy like that.

So you started off at $150k/year and it only took you 6 years to achieve the above?!? And you're not happy with that?!? Dude, I would KILL for that.....literally I would kill someone to have my income more than doubled, work less than 40 hours a week, have no call, no nights, and no weekend work. As it stands, I make LESS now and work HARDER than I did 10 years ago; and that, my friend, seriously blows.

 

[deleted307836]

So you started off at $150k/year and it only took you 6 years to achieve the above?!? And you're not happy with that?!? Dude, I would KILL for that.....literally I would kill someone to have my income more than doubled, work less than 40 hours a week, have no call, no nights, and no weekend work. As it stands, I make LESS now and work HARDER than I did 10 years ago; and that, my friend, seriously blows.

 

[gasattack3]

I disagree 100%. You can make significantly less money and be better off financially by entering the workforce 8-10 years earlier. In particular, you'd be better off in your 20's and 30's when the extra money and better hours would translate into more interesting life experince vs spending countless hours with your nose in a book or writing useless progress notes.

I hear you but you better be making greater than 100k. Even then you better be VERY frugal and plan carefully.

It doesn't take too many years of 350+ income to get ahead, even if you start later. But, there are a lot of folks making 150 and never really getting anywhere (a societal problem to be sure, but it is what it is).

Having been in private industry for a lot of years before med school, one thing I've learned is to keep your cost of living expenses DOWN. I seriously plan on living in a very modest (but clean and neat and nice) home/condo/apartment even. Will drive a nice car (probably a Lincoln or Cadillac) but that's about the extent of the exuberance and that's easily affordable. I like to drive a nice vehicle. Otherwise, it will be a very modest life so that when I'm 60 or 65 I won't NEED to work. I'll work because I want to work. That's the plan anyway.

 

[johncunningham]

I'm five years into private practice, and honestly, I think life is pretty good. I have managed to find at least two of the three things we all dream about... Money, Hours, Location. I'm healthy, so are the wife and kids. I really do think that no matter what happens, I will always be able to earn a respectable salary doing what I like. I don't really love it at 3am, but is what it is. More money means more call. Less money, less call. yada yada.

When I am daydreaming, or laying awake at night, I occasionally think about what I might have done differently. I also wonder about what my son might do one day. The only thing that keeps coming back to me, is that I might have been cut out for a life in the trades. Several electricians and general contractors in the extended family. Like all of you I was bright enough to manage medschool, residency, and landing a reasonably desirable job. It's not just brains that matter, but also work ethic, personality, and what my Gram would have called gumption. Imagine that instead of college, that I entered an apprenticeship in plumbing, carpentry, electrician... Whatever. Then imagine that instead of slaving away in medschool and residency and in the early years of practice, that I took a chance on myself and started my own business. Instead of six figure student loan debt, I leverage myself to buy eqipment and open an office. I hire a few guys, buy a few trucks. I'm personable, able to sell myself, do good work, the whole nine. By forty I am managing a successful little empire. I make my own hours and only take the jobs I want to take. In my daydreams it seems like a pretty wonderful life. BUT, it takes a fair amount of luck to be successful in business and the trades are no different.

I'm sure lots of you guys have read the Millionaire Next Door. Its a little dated now, and definately a little cheesy, but one of their points that I can't stress enough is this. When the authors asked their collection of self made affluent what their kids do for a living, or what they told their kids to study, it always came down to Law, Medicine, Engineering, and Accounting. Why? Because its safe. being an Anesthesiologist is rewarding, and at least for me, in 2013, fairly lucrative. No matter what the future holds, assuming I have my health, it will (at least in my lifetime) pay an upper middle class wage. I can't ask for more, and while the times are good, I am continuing to fund the almighty FU account.

I'm at an age where a few of my friends have become very successful in banking/finance. Real money for one or two of them, like 7 figures a year. But you know what? They could lose that income in an instant, and when its gone, its likely never coming back.

Long winded answer, but I would do medschool again in a second. And honestly, I would probably choose anesthesiology because when I was an MS3-4 it was the only thing that really grabbed my attention and seemed like something I could do for 30+ years. Five years out of residency I feel the same way.

Good luck to all of you trying to find your way,

John

 

[FutureDO2016]

that last post was deep, nice, we all want to find something we will enjoy for the rest of our lives and not regret it

 

[pgg]

I'm five years into private practice, and honestly, I think life is pretty good.

[...]

I agree with that whole post.

 

[LeverArm]

I'm five years into private practice, and honestly, I think life is pretty good. I have managed to find at least two of the three things we all dream about... Money, Hours, Location. I'm healthy, so are the wife and kids. I really do think that no matter what happens, I will always be able to earn a respectable salary doing what I like. I don't really love it at 3am, but is what it is. More money means more call. Less money, less call. yada yada.

When I am daydreaming, or laying awake at night, I occasionally think about what I might have done differently. I also wonder about what my son might do one day. The only thing that keeps coming back to me, is that I might have been cut out for a life in the trades. Several electricians and general contractors in the extended family. Like all of you I was bright enough to manage medschool, residency, and landing a reasonably desirable job. It's not just brains that matter, but also work ethic, personality, and what my Gram would have called gumption. Imagine that instead of college, that I entered an apprenticeship in plumbing, carpentry, electrician... Whatever. Then imagine that instead of slaving away in medschool and residency and in the early years of practice, that I took a chance on myself and started my own business. Instead of six figure student loan debt, I leverage myself to buy eqipment and open an office. I hire a few guys, buy a few trucks. I'm personable, able to sell myself, do good work, the whole nine. By forty I am managing a successful little empire. I make my own hours and only take the jobs I want to take. In my daydreams it seems like a pretty wonderful life. BUT, it takes a fair amount of luck to be successful in business and the trades are no different.

I'm sure lots of you guys have read the Millionaire Next Door. Its a little dated now, and definately a little cheesy, but one of their points that I can't stress enough is this. When the authors asked their collection of self made affluent what their kids do for a living, or what they told their kids to study, it always came down to Law, Medicine, Engineering, and Accounting. Why? Because its safe. being an Anesthesiologist is rewarding, and at least for me, in 2013, fairly lucrative. No matter what the future holds, assuming I have my health, it will (at least in my lifetime) pay an upper middle class wage. I can't ask for more, and while the times are good, I am continuing to fund the almighty FU account.

I'm at an age where a few of my friends have become very successful in banking/finance. Real money for one or two of them, like 7 figures a year. But you know what? They could lose that income in an instant, and when its gone, its likely never coming back.

Long winded answer, but I would do medschool again in a second. And honestly, I would probably choose anesthesiology because when I was an MS3-4 it was the only thing that really grabbed my attention and seemed like something I could do for 30+ years. Five years out of residency I feel the same way.

Good luck to all of you trying to find your way,

John

I have no idea how I got to to this thread but thank you for this post that I read while filling out my ERAS. Thank you for your sincerity and optimism. Anesthesia has some of the most interesting personalities that I have ever come across in the hospital. It's full of lazy-appearing but hard-working, cynical but content people I have ever met. They stay out of the spotlight but always act the most friendly and personable.

Also for those that dream about doing something else... what exactly is it that you would do? Dentistry? Really? Go into pain and work outpatient and you can basically have the same lifestyle. Business? Sure, let's all be Forbes 500 CEOs and make 7 or 8 figures. That's as likely as being an aspiring Hollywood actor or NBA player. Accept that you have a career that 90% of the people would switch with theirs for in a heartbeat... that is if they even have a full-time job where they are not overqualified for.

 

[countingdays]

I have no idea how I got to to this thread but thank you for this post that I read while filling out my ERAS. Thank you for your sincerity and optimism. Anesthesia has some of the most interesting personalities that I have ever come across in the hospital. It's full of lazy-appearing but hard-working, cynical but content people I have ever met. They stay out of the spotlight but always act the most friendly and personable.

Also for those that dream about doing something else... what exactly is it that you would do? Dentistry? Really? Go into pain and work outpatient and you can basically have the same lifestyle. Business? Sure, let's all be Forbes 500 CEOs and make 7 or 8 figures. That's as likely as being an aspiring Hollywood actor or NBA player. Accept that you have a career that 90% of the people would switch with theirs for in a heartbeat... that is if they even have a full-time job where they are not overqualified for.

I find it odd that everyone acts like a better job has to pay more.
This is a pretty good job but it's absurd to act like the only better jobs are pipe dreams of being ceos, investment bankers, or a-listers. There are lots of regular jobs that provide a better work/life/income balance than this one.

 

[LeverArm]

I find it odd that everyone acts like a better job has to pay more.
This is a pretty good job but it's absurd to act like the only better jobs are pipe dreams of being ceos, investment bankers, or a-listers. There are lots of regular jobs that provide a better work/life/income balance than this one.

Such as?

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Such as?

I worked in business prior to med school. The marketing director of our company worked hard, but arrived around 9am and left by 5pm and got paid around $180K. Our VP of Sales made around $280K and his hours were similar. This was at a $3 Billion company. They had stress, but lived pretty nice lives. Getting flown around the country first class. Nobody's lives at stake. No lawsuits. Pressuring other people under them to put out or leave.

Movie directors can make $1Mill per film and have amazingly creative jobs.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I worked in business prior to med school. The marketing director of our company worked hard, but arrived around 9am and left by 5pm and got paid around $180K. Our VP of Sales made around $280K and his hours were similar. This was at a $3 Billion company. They had stress, but lived pretty nice lives. Getting flown around the country first class. Nobody's lives at stake. No lawsuits. Pressuring other people under them to put out or leave.

Movie directors can make $1Mill per film and have amazingly creative jobs.

I don't think movie directors or VP of Sales of $3 Billion companies qualify as "regular jobs" nor are there "lots" of those positions.

There might be lots of jobs with better work/life/income balance, I won't argue that point, but they're not going to make mid-6 figures.

 

[pgg]

I worked in business prior to med school. The marketing director of our company worked hard, but arrived around 9am and left by 5pm and got paid around $180K. Our VP of Sales made around $280K and his hours were similar. This was at a $3 Billion company. They had stress, but lived pretty nice lives. Getting flown around the country first class. Nobody's lives at stake. No lawsuits. Pressuring other people under them to put out or leave.

Movie directors can make $1Mill per film and have amazingly creative jobs.

And again. We're in the SDN fantasy world where the average med school matriculant could've / would've / should've overslept into a 9-5 job as VP of multibillion dollar corporations.

Points for creativity though. At least it's not the usual i-banking example.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

I worked in business prior to med school. The marketing director of our company worked hard, but arrived around 9am and left by 5pm and got paid around $180K. Our VP of Sales made around $280K and his hours were similar. This was at a $3 Billion company. They had stress, but lived pretty nice lives. Getting flown around the country first class. Nobody's lives at stake. No lawsuits. Pressuring other people under them to put out or leave.

Movie directors can make $1Mill per film and have amazingly creative jobs.

Lol, movie directors? Why not throw A-list actors and musicians into the mix while we're at it?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Lol, movie directors? Why not throw A-list actors and musicians into the mix while we're at it?

Don't forget rappers!

 

[pgg]

Lol, movie directors? Why not throw A-list actors and musicians into the mix while we're at it?

Ooh! Ooh! I wanna be John Elway!

Woohoo!

 

[BLADEMDA]

Hedge Fund Manager. You can be the Movie Director or Rapper.

Read this article: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/pay-stretching-to-10-figures/?_r=0

 

[ferning]

Yea seriously, you guys need to put down you are sucking on.

You have such horribly unoriginal ambitions what makes you think you have the creative capacity to be a million dollar movie director. Whatever, success is obedience to a structured way of life and physicians are the worlds biggest lap dog in my opinion cause they jump through so many goddamn hoops. Take on the chin too, no union and no control over our malicious healthcare delivery system

 

[deleted126335]

Don't forget rappers!

If I had to do it over I would be a professional sperm donor.

 

[excalibur]

If I had to do it over I would be a professional sperm donor.

Why do you have to jack this thread up with such a whack statement? Just beat it.

 

[briansle]

My wife is a fellow in peds anesthesia.
I'm a dentist.

The grass always seems greener. I've been a dentist for 6 years. My loans are paid off. My wife's loans are paid off, I paid her tuition her last two years in med school. I make 350k/year working for a corporation and I work roughly 36 hrs a week.But I didn't start there, I started at 150k. I take off days here and there and have "2 weeks" vacation. I have two hour lunches too often and I'm surfing the web way too much at work. And yes there are dentists in our company who'll clear a million. Definitely outliers.

Now the bad side. I'm almost like a salesman. I have to convince people to have their cavities filled. Their cracked teeth need crowns. I hear things like "My insurance ran out". We have to deal with 1000$/yr maximums. That's 1 crown. Most things in dentistry are for the most part... elective. So much of our success depends on our people skills, skills to sale, skills to lead and manage a small office. Because some of the unsuccessful dentists will be lucky to make 120K, and some really charismatic ones will clear 1 million.

I don't feel the same respect as some of the MDs get. It's just not as sexy to say I'm a dentist than to say I'm a Physician. God, you guys have a TV shows glamorizing the profession, ER, Grey's Anatomy... Let's face it there's a prestige and sexiness to being a Doctor.

If I had to do it again. I would seriously consider going to MED school and becoming a heart surgeon or something crazy like that.

Dead On.

I'm a dentist. My brother is an orthopedic resident.

Majority of Dentistry is elective, and relies on a patient's disposable income.
To succeed in dentistry you need to be charismatic and an entrepreneur.

Seems like MD's generally don't have to sell treatment or manage a small business. I feel like you guys receive a stable salary to do truly meaningful work, and not have the stress of running a practice.

If I could do things over again, Medicine all-the-way.

In a couple years I'll be able to compare head-to-head with my brother who chose the better health-profession.

Are there more threads like this?

 

[UnicornDemon]

Such as?

I can think of three, and no they aren't I-Banking, Consulting, Law, or shot-in-the-dark CEO positions.

1. Dentistry- already been discussed in this thread.

2. Accounting. Students from state schools are still capable of landing a position at a Big 4 Accounting firm. Starting salaries are around ~$60,000, but tough it out to partner level and you could be making $500k per year. At New York firms, accountants can make a million per year as partner. The catch is that these people work terrible hours.

3. Petroleum Engineering- starting salaries are high- around $85,000+. And this is with a four year degree. Here we have the advantage of no grad-school loans and time value of money. Save and invest your money and, with compound interest, you'll easily come ahead of the anesthesiologist.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

I can think of three, and no they aren't I-Banking, Consulting, Law, or shot-in-the-dark CEO positions.

1. Dentistry- already been discussed in this thread.

2. Accounting. Students from state schools are still capable of landing a position at a Big 4 Accounting firm. Starting salaries are around ~$60,000, but tough it out to partner level and you could be making $500k per year. At New York firms, accountants can make a million per year as partner. The catch is that these people work terrible hours.

3. Petroleum Engineering- starting salaries are high- around $85,000+. And this is with a four year degree. Here we have the advantage of no grad-school loans and time value of money. Save and invest your money and, with compound interest, you'll easily come ahead of the anesthesiologist.

1. Dentistry has its own problems. Saturation, borrowing at a ridiculously high margin, good income depending a lot on charisma and salesmanship, etc. I'd prefer not to.

2. I have friends in accounting and they all tell me how soul-sucking and meaningless it is. No thank you.

3. Come ahead of the anesthesiologist? Maybe while the anesthesiologist is training, paying off loans, and accumulating for the first few years out of residency, but afterward? No way. Assuming an equal base amount of money required for living modestly, the anesthesiologist has so much more disposable income to invest that his net worth return when both reach retirement age is almost a complete order of magnitude higher. As long as the anesthesiologist doesn't blow his money on a bunch of crap, there's no comparison.

 

[excalibur]

So if someone was going to hit a rewind button and release the button way back when I started college or med school in effect erasing my medical knowledge and memory of how hard the path is, but I had to decide right now in the present if I wanted to program my life to become an anesthesiologist again, I would say HELL YES! Why? As my friend, Hawaiian Bruin, points out...Anesthesia is F'n awesome! I am very happy with what I do and my way of life. If had to tell my 18 year old self is it worth it, I would tell him yes.

Some interesting anecdotes...

Having said the above, I would never want to do med school and residency again. Once was plenty. It was not really an enjoyable time. One word to describe it. GRIND. The trek was a mother f****in' GRIND. Very early on in the trek, you just want to finish. You just want out.

But...since it was worth it, and I am very happy now, I would tell my 18 year old self to go for it.

A very interesting question:

How many fresh attendings would do it all over again starting now at their current age (30-35 year olds)?

Why do I bring this up? My brother and I are physicians, and a good friend of mine, who was our roommate in college, recently decided on a career change. He is a lawyer, but 3 years ago he told me he wanted to change from law into medicine. He just was not liking law anymore and wanted something different. He is my age, married with two kids. He had already made up his mind and was set to take some prereq courses in the spring in preparation for completing prereqs and taking the MCAT. At the time I was a CA3. I explained that I would help and guide in any way I could. I explained that I wanted him to be aware that after 8-10 years of work, I was just now getting into a place where I felt that "happiness" so if he wanted that "warm and fuzzy" feeling of helping the world, he probably was not going to see that for a while, and in the interim, it was going to be a mother f***ing GRIND. He understood and wanted to go on with it. My friend is now ready to start his first day of med school this month. At age 34 he is going to get the "This is what we expect from you out of our gross anatomy course". That speech was 11 years ago for me.

It got me to ask my brother, knowing what we know, what would it take for us to begin the ENTIRE journey right now at our current age. I ask you guys to. The main list that my brother came up with...

Knowing what I know, to start the entire process again the following would have to apply:
1. The hypothetical genie would have to make it that I was somehow single and never met my wife and started a family. THERE IS NO WAY I COULD DO IT AGAIN AT MY AGE WITH A WIFE AND TWO KIDS.
2. The payout would have to be more. Obviously the financial gain would have to be more in order to start at my age. My brother and I felt double salary was not even close. 3x salary was maybe, but we felt 4x salary was a much better thought.
3. I would have to keep my medical knowledge. If the deal is that I have to start at my age with a blank canvas, the answer is emphatically NO since I know how hard it was.
4. I would prefer that my tuition be paid for. If condition 2 were met, I may be OK with paying tuition depending on how much.

There may have been more stipulations, but I can't think of them right now.

Yes there were people in their 30's in my med school class, and my friend is going to be in his 30's in his M1 class.

Me personally, though, with what I know of how hard it was and how taxing emotionally, financially, mentally, physically, there is no way I could start from scratch in my early to mid 30's. Your thoughts?