What personality should a female surgeon possess?

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lol ok sparky. well you keep advocating rehabbing and I'll actually make people pay for their crimes. we should just make prison into a vacation. honestly I mean why not just give them a free vacation somewhere super nice? They'll be so happy and they'll never commit crime again. maybe give them some money too, because we know that is another reason. hell honorary PhDs for all as well, because education is clearly a factor!
The systems with the lowest re-offense rate are those that properly rehabilitate their inmates. If you want to keep pissing away your tax dollars because you get off on making people suffer, that's your prerogative. If we want an effective prison system, it isn't one that's based on punishment, it's one that's based on turning people back into functional human beings. There's plenty of research on the topic out there, but you could just keep going with your absolutely ******ed feels based on caveman logic of "he do bad, we hurt him, make him feel bad" and making America more dysfunctional if that's what your down for.

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/

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when we're talking about heroine and coke, no, that's not really something you can hide very well. so far I'm 2/2 on that front for identifying. pain killers or marijuana? sure. probably going to be wrong more than half the time.
2/2 on identifying? You wouldn't know the ones you hadn't identified lol. Your logic is horrible.
 
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Why is that the prison's purpose? It should be the individuals. It's not my job to pay for some idiot who broke a law to get training so they can contribute again. If they want to do so, they can put their butt on the line and pay for it themselves, just like I would. Why in the world would someone who broke a law get free education when people that don't break laws have to pay for it? Just because they didn't harm anyone yet, doesn't mean they won't ever. People that are career druggies always start off as potheads.

I keep forgetting most prisoners are just so well off financially, thanks for reminding me!
 
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2/2 on identifying? You wouldn't know the ones you hadn't identified lol. Your logic is horrible.

and you'd know that how?..... I wouldn't have mentioned it(or the comparison with marijuana identification) if that were true..... keep on keepin' on
 
and you'd know that how?..... I wouldn't have mentioned it(or the comparison with marijuana identification) if that were true..... keep on keepin' on
Because most of the people that use drugs are pretty damn good at hiding it, so you wouldn't know it. Like my friend's husband who was a dad of the freakin year and straight up died of a heroin overdose. No one knew. You just can't tell with a lot of them, just like you can't tell that a lot of functional alcoholics are functional alcoholics (30% of Americans abuse alcohol, and a third of those are full-blown alcoholics).
 
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when we're talking about heroine and coke, no, that's not really something you can hide very well. so far I'm 2/2 on that front for identifying. pain killers or marijuana? sure. probably going to be wrong more than half the time.

Your naïveté is showing. I'm guessing your bubble is small, or you are young?
 
when we're talking about heroine and coke, no, that's not really something you can hide very well. so far I'm 2/2 on that front for identifying. pain killers or marijuana? sure. probably going to be wrong more than half the time.

I don't want beat a man that's down but this just isn't accurate.
 
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Your naïveté is showing. I'm guessing your bubble is small, or you are young?
I think both.

It always gets me when people that have virtually no exposure to drugs get all uppity about their positions on the issue. They don't know ****.

The whole reason society exists is because hunter-gatherers realized they could get more grain for making booze if they settled down and started growing it instead of wandering around until they found enough of the stuff to make a beer or two. Humanity's propensity for mind altering substances is literally the reason society exists. We are the descendants of a bunch of drunks from thousands of years ago, so we've got it pretty hard-coded into us to seek out alcohol, drugs, and the like. That's why if you look at every culture, even ones that had zero contact with one another for thousands of years, ALL of them had some degree of mind-altering drug use within their societies. It's part of being human. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with it, excluding the ridiculously addictive stuff like narcotics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/opinion/sunday/how-beer-gave-us-civilization.html?_r=0

(I'm saying all of this as a guy who doesn't use drugs himself, aside from currently using alcohol and having a former nicotine habit)
 
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Reading this thread, then reading the title. Wat.
 
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This present argument reminds me of the book The Pastoral Clinic by Angela Garcia, published in 2010. It looks at an area within the US that has/had the highest heroin addiction and fatal overdoses, the Espanola Valley in New Mexico.

The author, an anthropologist, goes into the region, and realizes that it's not just simply providing healthcare, jailing the people for possession of drugs, that'll help. In fact, it just perpetuates the cycle, a cycle of getting addicted, shooting up, getting in trouble/being sent to the hospital, trying to get clean, and then starting from the beginning. The saddest part though is when she realized that all of the drug abuse is heavily embedded in historical and cultural narratives and systems that are hard to break; the cycle affects families and friends, neighbors and even strangers, for even at the graves of those who died of OD people shoot the needles into the ground, a symbol of how deeply rooted the area is to this drug, how interwoven the drug is in the narrative of their lives.

Parents rope in their children, and vice versa. Friends get other friends involved, and those who aren't try their best, but are powerless to do anything. It's a literal and figurative familial and social paradigm that towards the end the author tries to figure out how to deal with it, meeting with physicians, government officials, the various peoples involved in public health. It's not an easy situation to fix she notes; it's complex and cannot be solved with just a bandaid. And when she gave a talk a couple of years back to give an update, she commented on how those questions are still there, and how the intersections of medicine, public health, and anthropology need to figure out how to address these problems not only in New Mexico, but other areas of the US that have similar struggles.

So upon reading this book, hearing her talk, and doing some research, I'd rather have the Clean Needles Program than not. I understand the other side's argument about how having this program is aiding and abetting drug users to continue using, but at the same time, I would be lying to myself and denying the accounts of others who've noted that having clean needles is better than nothing.

Because when you're sharing needles not just with random strangers, but with your family, your friends, people you love and shouldn't be harming, things get messed up. When you share a needle with your daughter, and you later learn that you not only gave her HIV, but possibly her newborn baby, that's serious. The needle you shared possibly led someone else to their death. Yeah, it's their fault, they're responsible and should live with the consequences, but at the same time, how is someone to rise above that when there is little opportunity to do so?

Garcia talks about how this sharing is an intimate experience, one of sharing the suffering and euphoria of the circumstances of life. It's poetically depressing, and it's something that she notes obviously shouldn't be occurring. Granted, I believe and want better treatment programs and have the funds go towards more aggressive, effective solutions, but I don't think we have a comprehensive plan yet for that.
 
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This present argument reminds me of the book The Pastoral Clinic by Angela Garcia, published in 2010. It looks at an area within the US that has/had the highest heroin addiction and fatal overdoses, the Espanola Valley in New Mexico.

The author, an anthropologist, goes into the region, and realizes that it's not just simply providing healthcare, jailing the people for possession of drugs, that'll help. In fact, it just perpetuates the cycle, a cycle of getting addicted, shooting up, getting in trouble/being sent to the hospital, trying to get clean, and then starting from the beginning. The saddest part though is when she realized that all of the drug abuse is heavily embedded in historical and cultural narratives and systems that are hard to break; the cycle affects families and friends, neighbors and even strangers, for even at the graves of those who died of OD people shoot the needles into the ground, a symbol of how deeply rooted the area is to this drug, how interwoven the drug is in the narrative of their lives.

Parents rope in their children, and vice versa. Friends get other friends involved, and those who aren't try their best, but are powerless to do anything. It's a literal and figurative familial and social paradigm that towards the end the author tries to figure out how to deal with it, meeting with physicians, government officials, the various peoples involved in public health. It's not an easy situation to fix she notes; it's complex and cannot be solved with just a bandaid. And when she gave a talk a couple of years back to give an update, she commented on how those questions are still there, and how the intersections of medicine, public health, and anthropology need to figure out how to address these problems not only in New Mexico, but other areas of the US that have similar struggles.

So upon reading this book, hearing her talk, and doing some research, I'd rather have the Clean Needles Program than not. I understand the other side's argument about how having this program is aiding and abetting drug users to continue using, but at the same time, I would be lying to myself and denying the accounts of others who've noted that having clean needles is better than nothing.

Because when you're sharing needles not just with random strangers, but with your family, your friends, people you love and shouldn't be harming, things get messed up. When you share a needle with your daughter, and you later learn that you not only gave her HIV, but possibly her newborn baby, that's serious. The needle you shared possibly led someone else to their death. Yeah, it's their fault, they're responsible and should live with the consequences, but at the same time, how is someone to rise above that when there is little opportunity to do so?

Garcia talks about how this sharing is an intimate experience, one of sharing the suffering and euphoria of the circumstances of life. It's poetically depressing, and it's something that she notes obviously shouldn't be occurring. Granted, I believe and want better treatment programs and have the funds go towards more aggressive, effective solutions, but I don't think we have a comprehensive plan yet for that.
Thanks for that wall of text.
 
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@touchpause13 I hate you for making me come here and read through this crap.

To make things come full circle I am a female surgeon and I treat many people who are functional heroin (not heroine) addicts that hold down jobs or go to school. One aspect of using clean needles that hasn't been mentioned is that then they wouldn't get so many damn abscesses (which can then escalate to endocarditis or necrotizing fasciitis). The costs associated with caring for those infections would surely be better spent in other ways, but we don't get to make the decision to simply not provide the treatment when they come in to the ER. Sure, some of them have insurance (although a lot of them have medicaid versions so it comes back to the taxpayer anyway). The social workers do what they can to get those interested in quitting hooked up with appropriate resources, but I acknowledge that an addict who is not ready to quit is not going to get any benefit from those resources. If we had needle exchange programs in town I would refer them to those, but we don't. I can however teach them about rectal administration of the drug. It doesn't cut down on their use, but does reduce the infectious consequences of use and hopefully cuts down on ER visits (for those willing to try it that is, you would be amazed how people not grossed out about sharing dirty needles will balk at the idea of squirting some liquid up their butt). On the plus side it is completely free for me to offer this advice so no one has to get all bent out of shape about taxpayers funding stuff.

As far as attitude goes, I get along with just about everyone. I am capable of leading a team without having to be dickish or yelling at everbody, and people tend to do as I say because they respect me. On the rare occasion an order of mine is not followed I don't just go off on the person, I figure out why it wasn't (since it usually has nothing to do with the order coming from a female and more to do with some system problem or an inattentive nurse). I occasionally get mistaken for a nurse, but I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I correct the person and then go about my business (which I do with confidence and competence) which does a lot more for opening peoples minds than being all whiny or snippy about it. I trained with several women (we were >50% female in residency at one point) who each have different personalities ranging from the more shy and quiet, to the loud and in your face. Basically just as varied as the personalities of the guys in the program. Some of each gender had kids prior to or during training and managed to make it work. Some of each gender were married and managed to make that work. It isn't like female surgeons are a new thing or need to act a certain way.
 
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If you commit a crime while high, you're obviously going to prison because you committed a crime. Just like if you were drunk, same deal. I believe the purpose of the prison system should be to rehabilitate people and make them functional members of society, and to separate them from society if they are incapable of rehabilitation. If someone has harmed no one else and is a functional member of society, whether they use drugs or not is inconsequential- they have done society no harm, they have done other individuals no harm, and thus putting them behind bars would serve neither them nor society in any positive way.
That's not the point. The point is they committed a crime. Guess what? I could constantly steal from a demented old lady and she would never know it. Thus, I'm technically not causing any harm to society. The lady never knew what was happening. However, if I'm caught by police, I will still go to prison. Why? Because it's illegal.
 
@touchpause13 I hate you for making me come here and read through this crap.

To make things come full circle I am a female surgeon and I treat many people who are functional heroin (not heroine) addicts that hold down jobs or go to school. One aspect of using clean needles that hasn't been mentioned is that then they wouldn't get so many damn abscesses (which can then escalate to endocarditis or necrotizing fasciitis). The costs associated with caring for those infections would surely be better spent in other ways, but we don't get to make the decision to simply not provide the treatment when they come in to the ER. Sure, some of them have insurance (although a lot of them have medicaid versions so it comes back to the taxpayer anyway). The social workers do what they can to get those interested in quitting hooked up with appropriate resources, but I acknowledge that an addict who is not ready to quit is not going to get any benefit from those resources. If we had needle exchange programs in town I would refer them to those, but we don't. I can however teach them about rectal administration of the drug. It doesn't cut down on their use, but does reduce the infectious consequences of use and hopefully cuts down on ER visits (for those willing to try it that is, you would be amazed how people not grossed out about sharing dirty needles will balk at the idea of squirting some liquid up their butt). On the plus side it is completely free for me to offer this advice so no one has to get all bent out of shape about taxpayers funding stuff.

As far as attitude goes, I get along with just about everyone. I am capable of leading a team without having to be dickish or yelling at everbody, and people tend to do as I say because they respect me. On the rare occasion an order of mine is not followed I don't just go off on the person, I figure out why it wasn't (since it usually has nothing to do with the order coming from a female and more to do with some system problem or an inattentive nurse). I occasionally get mistaken for a nurse, but I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I correct the person and then go about my business (which I do with confidence and competence) which does a lot more for opening peoples minds than being all whiny or snippy about it. I trained with several women (we were >50% female in residency at one point) who each have different personalities ranging from the more shy and quiet, to the loud and in your face. Basically just as varied as the personalities of the guys in the program. Some of each gender had kids prior to or during training and managed to make it work. Some of each gender were married and managed to make that work. It isn't like female surgeons are a new thing or need to act a certain way.

You're a female surgeon, but do you have big "tatas" (??) because that was THE point I came in here to make. I know it's not "technically" a personality trait, though I'd argue it should be, and I figure it has to help, amirite?!

Trying to get this thing back onto the OP. "Tatas".

(am I typing that because I'm drunk?? maybe. who knows. could be functional)
 
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You're a female surgeon, but do you have big "tatas" (??) because that was THE point I came in here to make. I know it's not "technically" a personality trait, though I'd argue it should be, and I figure it has to help, amirite?!

Trying to get this thing back onto the OP. "Tatas".

(am I typing that because I'm drunk?? maybe. who knows. could be functional)

I thought you said women should stick to the kitchen at best and pediatrics at worst :hilarious:

:whoa:
 
Oh, snap. This is not the lounge. Don't ban me :p
 
I thought you said women should stick to the kitchen at best and pediatrics at worst :hilarious:

:whoa:

I think my exact words were, "I don't care what she decides to do with her life as long as dinner is warm on the table every evening when I get home"

Specifically.

:bored:
 
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You're a female surgeon, but do you have big "tatas" (??) because that was THE point I came in here to make. I know it's not "technically" a personality trait, though I'd argue it should be, and I figure it has to help, amirite?!

Trying to get this thing back onto the OP. "Tatas".

(am I typing that because I'm drunk?? maybe. who knows. could be functional)
:yeahright:
Stop playin' you ain't drunk
 
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This thread has gone bonkers
 
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The point you seem to have missed is that you have no way of knowing you are "2/2"

All you know is that you've been right (true positive) twice, and wrong (false positive) zero. You have no idea how many times you've missed a case (false negative). You could be 2/200 for all you know.

no because I ask the physician, hence the fact that I'm not X/X with regards to the 2nd category. I'm quite capable of reading and understanding implications
 
You still don't know the denominator. Neither does whatever physician you've been shadowing. That's the whole point of a hidden addiction. It's not always easy to detect and you'd be shocked the number of people abusing alcohol, cocaine, heroin, etc, while living a seemingly functional productive life with no one the wiser.

You act like this is easy, when you have no real experience. "2/2" means diddly squat when you seem to think drug addiction is as easy to spot as it is in the movies.
When are they found out then if they are functionally productive? Edit: Or I guess you said "seemingly" functional productive life, so I guess not really.
 
You still don't know the denominator. Neither does whatever physician you've been shadowing. That's the whole point of a hidden addiction. It's not always easy to detect and you'd be shocked the number of people abusing alcohol, cocaine, heroin, etc, while living a seemingly functional productive life with no one the wiser.

You act like this is easy, when you have no real experience. "2/2" means diddly squat when you seem to think drug addiction is as easy to spot as it is in the movies.

youre playing semantics. the point is, it's clear that hard drug use like heroine or coke are much easier to spot than things like marijuana. I've never seen anyone debate this idea, feel free to be the first.
 
Some are never found out, honestly.

Or like a case I had recently - 50 year old mother with newly diagnosed advanced cirrhosis. Her family said she drank "a little". Turns out she was drinking close to a liter of alcohol a day.

For some, the "functional" eventually degrades into worsening addiction.

But you'll have people who sustain a drug addiction and a high level of personal/professional function for years to decades, fooling family, friends, co-workers, physicians.

It's not all trainspotting and Requiem for a Dream.



EasIER? Sure.

Easy? Not at all in a large number of cases. That's where we are getting hung up, and it's not semantics.

that's irrelevant to the discussion. this has to do with someone comparing the average drug user to people shooting up heroine and coke. that's like comparing all people that commit crimes (felony, misdemeanor + civil) to felons.
 
You must not have been keeping up with the thread then:

Lol. I'm guessing I should give a short summary:

The Pastoral Clinic by Angela Garcia (anthropologist) covers what was/is known as the area in the US for the highest percentage of heroin addiction and fatal overdoses, the Espanola Valley in New Mexico (the book came out in 2010). She goes in, realizes that the area's cultural, social and historical narratives are what heavily contributed to the current state of affairs, and due to only having one clinic, and one rehab (but not so effective) program, there is little to be done about helping people. She also realizes that heroin is not only about the "high" but how it's deeply interwoven into familial and social interactions due to the circumstances.

Towards the end, she meets with physicians, social workers, officials, anyone dealing with public health. She realizes that there is no real answer to this problem, and the talk she gave a couple of years ago still highlights there hasn't been a solution. Though a solution to this would almost certainly help out other areas in similar conditions.

Thus, I said I wish we had much better effective programs in dealing with drug use and addiction as a country, but since obviously little is being done effectively, it's better to give these communities clean needles and promote that instead of them sharing with each other, despite the symbolic and intimate nature of sharing them to begin with, which Garcia talks about, that brings the community together, but leads to their demise as well.

EDIT: I just wanted to add another perspective from anthropology.
 
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Lol. I'm guessing I should give a short summary:

The Pastoral Clinic by Angela Garcia (anthropologist) covers what was/is known as the area in the US for the highest percentage of heroin addiction and fatal overdoses, the Espanola Valley in New Mexico (the book came out in 2010). She goes in, realizes that the area's cultural, social and historical narratives are what heavily contributed to the current state of affairs, and due to only having one clinic, and one rehab (but not so effective) program, there is little to be done about helping people. She also realizes that heroin is not only about the "high" but how it's deeply interwoven into familial and social interactions due to the circumstances.

Towards the end, she meets with physicians, social workers, officials, anyone dealing with public health. She realizes that there is no real answer to this problem, and the talk she gave a couple of years ago still highlights there hasn't been a solution. Though a solution to this would almost certainly help out other areas in similar conditions.

Thus, I said I wish we had much better effective programs in dealing with drug use and addiction as a country, but since obviously little is being done effectively, it's better to give these communities clean needles and promote that instead of them sharing with each other, despite the symbolic and intimate nature of sharing them to begin with, which Garcia talks about, that brings the community together, but leads to their demise as well.

EDIT: I just wanted to add another perspective from anthropology.
I love that the summary is basically the same length as the post it is summarizing (by the way I read both).

Basically it is saying that there are a lot of factors that are involved with becoming an addict and the answer is more complicated than saying just quit using and jailing those who don't comply.
 
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When are they found out then if they are functionally productive? Edit: Or I guess you said "seemingly" functional productive life, so I guess not really.
Some are found out when they get a diagnosis of hepatitis or HIV. Others show up positive on a drug test (such as a routine admission tox screen for a problem unrelated to drug use) and actually fess up to the use rather than try to deny it. Some have some decompensation of their behavior due to a stressor in their life that tips people off that there may be an issue. Often you discover they have been using for years despite having a job and a family. I have drained abscesses on quite a number of senior citizens who have been injecting drugs for most of their lives.
 
I love that the summary is basically the same length as the post it is summarizing (by the way I read both).

Basically it is saying that there are a lot of factors that are involved with becoming an addict and the answer is more complicated than saying just quit using and jailing those who don't comply.
So wait,

Are you saying maybe addiction is complex and requires a more nuanced solution than telling people to just quit????

inconceivable1.jpg
 
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Some are found out when they get a diagnosis of hepatitis or HIV. Others show up positive on a drug test (such as a routine admission tox screen for a problem unrelated to drug use) and actually fess up to the use rather than try to deny it. Some have some decompensation of their behavior due to a stressor in their life that tips people off that there may be an issue. Often you discover they have been using for years despite having a job and a family. I have drained abscesses on quite a number of senior citizens who have been injecting drugs for most of their lives.
So sad. :(
 
that's irrelevant to the discussion. this has to do with someone comparing the average drug user to people shooting up heroine and coke. that's like comparing all people that commit crimes (felony, misdemeanor + civil) to felons.
Normally I try not to pick on people for spelling, but dear god man. It's honestly hurting my eyes at this point.
 
I love that the summary is basically the same length as the post it is summarizing (by the way I read both).

Basically it is saying that there are a lot of factors that are involved with becoming an addict and the answer is more complicated than saying just quit using and jailing those who don't comply.

I thought I knocked off a couple of paragraphs. :p I suck at giving real short summaries... I always feel as if my message would get lost in the reduction.

But well done @dpmd, well done. :bow:

EDIT: Forgot to say as well, thank you for reading both posts. That's quite a feat (and appreciative).
 
You must not have been keeping up with the thread then:

again, you're not using the responses in the same context... none of those people said it's equally difficult to spot hard drug and marijuana use(once again the overlying issue that is being ignored). they questioned my evaluation of my proficiency in accurately judging hard drug users. do you really lack the intellect to understand that?
 
No, it's really not out of context.

The two relevant posts are:





Southplains says, you'd be surprised who are drug abusers.

You respond that you are "2/2" because heroin and coke are not something you can hide very well.

You are wrong.

you don't understand what you're talking about. that post isn't in context of hard drug users, it was in the context of all drug users(hence why my response broke it down) thus it doesnt invalidate my position. if they had said " you'd be surprised who hard drug users are," then yes, they clearly disagreed with me. however, that wasn't what they said. are you serious right now? you can't understand that?
 
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