What personality should a female surgeon possess?

[DermViser]

Yup. I don't think I'll never meet a Vascular surgeon who doesn't like their job, but it seems like they are generally content with it. And enjoy teaching it, too. The people at my department just hate how little time med students/interns/residents spend in Vascular.

But it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. People in Vascular love their job and are perfectly fine with spending long hours in the hospital, being on call, and are fully aware of and ok with the detriment to lifestyle. Med students/interns/residents don't like to do so esp. with the first group paying for the pleasure and the last 2 not being paid enough for the pleasure, so it's not surprising that residents after spending 5 years, want to enter subspecialties that are more conducive to lifestyle of which Vascular is not.

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[DermViser]

The wonderful program I was at showed me just how... malignant some programs can be. Given the fact that this program has no ranking status in the nation and M&M generally involves mistakes that make your jaw drop (especially since they're repeat mistakes) and never any real prevention strategies...
I was more shocked, however, in how they treated the medical students. The MS3s are pretty much treated like the lowest of the low. They condescend almost all the time and make them feel like complete **** every time they get a question wrong. A fellow lectured two of them on how poorly they were doing because they didn't know the grading criteria for pancreatic fistulas. Or the NCCN guidelines for the treatment of the different types of breast lesions. The hours they made them do were also shady... they didn't leave until 7pm a lot of times and were coming in at 4:30am. They had zero time to study.
It also didn't help that they mandated medical students wear scrubs a different color than all staff...
I was told not to give them advice on the shelf exam because I didn't know as much as the staff did... when I said the surgery shelf is 99% medicine. They're telling them to study the indications for different procedures and how they should know the different types of hernias because it's tested on the exam.
The laughable part - a student was told that his clinical performance was borderline and almost warranted a failure. This guy was performing like any MS3 would... I didn't know what to say.

I'm always surprised that General Surgery continues to use the NBME shelf exam when most of that shelf is medicine-based. At least make an in-house exam and test me out of Lawrence.

Why would you rotate in such a God forsaken place if it is unranked?

 

[Kaustikos]

But it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. People in Vascular love their job and are perfectly fine with spending long hours in the hospital, being on call, and are fully aware of and ok with the detriment to lifestyle. Med students/interns/residents don't like to do so esp. with the first group paying for the pleasure and the last 2 not being paid enough for the pleasure, so it's not surprising that residents after spending 5 years, want to enter subspecialties that are more conducive to lifestyle of which Vascular is not.

True. Which is why I don't understand how more and more schools aren't being more open to integrated programs for more surgical programs. I can't say 100% about my take on gen surg+vasc fellow other than I'd find vascular the more appealing of all programs. Colorectal... ew. Sorry but ew.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'm always surprised that General Surgery continues to use the NBME shelf exam when most of that shelf is medicine-based. At least make an in-house exam and test me out of Lawrence.

Why would you rotate in such a God forsaken place if it is unranked?

Okay,
I stretched that statement out a bit. They are ranked... but their status doesn't give them the right to treat students like they do. Or act like they do (god complex to a ridiculous degree).

edit - I'm not saying god complexes are okay. I'm just saying that if you're going to act like you're the best that ever was; you better be and not discussing why you didn't put drains in certain procedures when you're supposed to. And you keep doing it regardless of the fact that all your patients have had hematomas/pancreatic leaks.

 

[DermViser]

True. Which is why I don't understand how more and more schools aren't being more open to integrated programs for more surgical programs. I can't say 100% about my take on gen surg+vasc fellow other than I'd find vascular the more appealing of all programs. Colorectal... ew. Sorry but ew.

This is my ignorance speaking here, but how is Colorectal different from GI?

 

[DermViser]

Different from GI as in gastroenterology?

Yes. Do Colorectal surgeons not do scope stuff in the colon? I know they obviously do surgery in the area to correct stuff.

 

[dpmd]

Yes. Do Colorectal surgeons not do scope stuff in the colon? I know they obviously do surgery in the area to correct stuff.

Colorectal is to gi sort of like cardiothoracic is to cardiology. More procedures obviously but also different focus. Also, the surgeons probably could do all the procedures the medicine guys do, but the practice setting will determine what they actually do (for example the colorectal guy could do a lot of screening colonoscopies but the local gi gius eill thrn send all their cancers to the other guy who isn't taking their business)

 

[DermViser]

There is significant surgical overlap between CRS and Surgical Oncology (surgical oncologists will often also do colon resections and rectal cancer), as well as between CRS and general surgery.

So if one were to have colon or anorectal ca - who is the better person to go to: the Colorectal surgeon or the Surgical oncologist? Or is it more dependent on that physician's experience and credentials?

 

[Wordead]

Okay,
I stretched that statement out a bit. They are ranked... but their status doesn't give them the right to treat students like they do. Or act like they do (god complex to a ridiculous degree).

edit - I'm not saying god complexes are okay. I'm just saying that if you're going to act like you're the best that ever was; you better be and not discussing why you didn't put drains in certain procedures when you're supposed to. And you keep doing it regardless of the fact that all your patients have had hematomas/pancreatic leaks.

Is this program in the south?

 

[BobbyB]

Crazy entitlement here man. Many fail to obtain the American dream despite their best efforts. Straight up too conservative

your best? only losers whine about their best. winners go home and **** the prom queen!

3rd world immigrant here telling you to check your first world privilege. being born poor in the US is a lot better quality of life than most of the world and you have access to opportunities to a lot of wealth if you are intelligent and hard working. worst case scenario, you live better than 80% of the world. best case scenario, you are a wolf on wall street. that is a pretty great situation to be born in.

 

[BobbyB]

Oh really

you'll never see nurses bother McDreamy on overnight calls

 

[fancymylotus]

you'll never see nurses bother McDreamy on overnight calls

Well they better not bother Kaus then

><

 

[It's all good]

your best? only losers whine about their best. winners go home and **** the prom queen!

3rd world immigrant here telling you to check your first world privilege. being born poor in the US is a lot better quality of life than most of the world and you have access to opportunities to a lot of wealth if you are intelligent and hard working. worst case scenario, you live better than 80% of the world. best case scenario, you are a wolf on wall street. that is a pretty great situation to be born in.

Love the quote. Your success story is awesome. I suppose it is all relative to one's definition of the American Dream fundamentally. Unfortunately, most are neither intelligent nor well-positioned. The wolf on wall street is a drug addict with questionable morals at best. I hear your point, but the perspective can come off as sanctimonious regardless of upbringing. I mean, sure you create your own luck but life happens.

 

[PL198]

Love the quote. Your success story is awesome. I suppose it is all relative to one's definition of the American Dream fundamentally. Unfortunately, most are neither intelligent nor well-positioned. The wolf on wall street is a drug addict with questionable morals at best. I hear your point, but the perspective can come off as sanctimonious regardless of upbringing. I mean, sure you create your own luck but life happens.

ok and what are you going to do about life? You either buck up and deal with it and dominate or you get dominated!

 

[It's all good]

ok and what are you going to do about life? You either buck up and deal with it and dominate or you get dominated!

The point is that most do buck up and deal with it. They just don't dominate.

 

[PL198]

The point is that most do buck up and deal with it. They just don't dominate.

no not really. most people whine about their problems instead of working toward their goals. the people that reach them don't whine about the hand they were dealt, they just make the most of it.

 

[It's all good]

no not really. most people whine about their problems instead of working toward their goals. the people that reach them don't whine about the hand they were dealt, they just make the most of it.

fair enough. whining won't get you anywhere except further from where you want to go

 

[pre med 2014]

Nobody likes a whiner. That's why I won't complain about anything to anyone unless I've been in regular contact with that person for months at least. Either work, school, clinic etc...

That way they'll think oh wow this guy never complains about anything, this must really be an issue that needs to be addressed if he is saying something about it!

 

[Catman21]

Are female surgeons easy to get along with? Do they need to have calm personalities in order to be respected by the male surgeons? Is it OK to be commanding to the nurses?

the same personality a male should have: someone that wants cut people up...... really badly.

 

[Catman21]

I ask the question because I'm intrigued by the personalities that enter surgery.

It's not like anyone can be a surgeon. It takes 4 years medical school and 5 years residency, and often there are gap years or additional fellowships. That means that the female surgeon would be how old when she's done, like 37? Everyone knows that it would be difficult to have children then.

I'm curious if females set aside their nurturing aspect to become a hardcore professional, what kind of personality would they have now, and how is it best to interact with them if they were your senior? Would you work with senior females the same way as a senior male?

theres not only one type of personality that enters surgery, there are plenty of different personalities of surgeons. The deal breaker is when **** hits the fan, can you keep your **** together, and make the right decisions.

 

[DermViser]

I think vascular and CT have pulled a phenomenal marketing move by opening these integrated residencies: they've taken fellowship spots that they couldn't even fill, and turned them into some of the most desirable residency slots in the country.

All because they know med students are like kittens, and their shiny new programs are a ball to dangle over them...

They should do it for ALL the general surgery subspecialties - esp. if it streamlines things better.

 

[DermViser]

I don't think it is feasible for many of them, but it certainly would be for some

Like which ones?

 

[joker2400]

Like which ones?

If I had to guess SurgOnc, Peds, and Trauma/CC

 

[DermViser]

If I had to guess SurgOnc, Peds, and Trauma/CC

Funny, I would have thought at least SurgOnc and Peds could easily be integrated programs.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I think vascular and CT have pulled a phenomenal marketing move by opening these integrated residencies: they've taken fellowship spots that they couldn't even fill, and turned them into some of the most desirable residency slots in the country.

All because they know med students are like kittens, and their shiny new programs are a ball to dangle over them...

If you came up with an integrated residency called "butt pus surgery" but limited it to 25 spots per year and only interviewed Step 1 >240, it would be as competitive as plastics.

 

[DermViser]

I mean...the foundation of peds surg and surg onc is an ability to operate broadly on different areas of the body (in surg onc because it is a disease rather than an organ based fellowship, and in peds because it is a population based fellowship)...so I think the principles you learn in general surgery, and the range of surgical techniques, is important.

I think almost any "organ based" fellowship could potentially be split off, but I think ESP pathways are probably more feasible than true integrated residencies. The other issue is whether we need to have a population of surgeons who are all specialists with minimal understand of what the others are doing.

I guess it's different also in that there is no encroachment by mid levels into General Surgery, unlike say General IM or General Peds which would more pressure that person to subspecialize. Hence a person could be quite safe in terms of "job security" by even just doing General Surgery only.

I've always wondered though whether 5 whole years of General Surgery is really that necessary (this was the case even when there were no workhour restrictions) vs. maybe 3 or 4 and then moving on to fellowship. With so much surgical knowledge, it seems like General Surgery is an old relic, just bc so much of it has fragmented into fellowships -- a little similar to IM, but a primary care doctor is necessary to coordinate and manage chronic conditions, and I don't think General Surgeons really do that as much, unless it's some one they have just recently operated on.

 

[Kaustikos]

I think vascular and CT have pulled a phenomenal marketing move by opening these integrated residencies: they've taken fellowship spots that they couldn't even fill, and turned them into some of the most desirable residency slots in the country.

All because they know med students are like kittens, and their shiny new programs are a ball to dangle over them...

Well
I won't argue about the fellowship spots being desirable/undesirable. But it seems gen surg hates it with a passion. Taking "incoming resident spots" for gen surg that will be vascular or ct. They say they're being robbed. Or money taken away from general surgery residents. True, but it's kind of ignorant to assume all your gen surg residents will be gen surg or won't follow a vascular/ct track.

I mean...the foundation of peds surg and surg onc is an ability to operate broadly on different areas of the body (in surg onc because it is a disease rather than an organ based fellowship, and in peds because it is a population based fellowship)...so I think the principles you learn in general surgery, and the range of surgical techniques, is important.

I think almost any "organ based" fellowship could potentially be split off, but I think ESP pathways are probably more feasible than true integrated residencies. The other issue is whether we need to have a population of surgeons who are all specialists with minimal understand of what the others are doing.

So, with surg onc... It seems like you're not broad in your operations. All surg onc people tell me you'll be "influenced" to follow a specific track like breast, melanoma, thyroid or whatever. You don't get to do broad as a surgical oncologist.
Peds, on the other hand, yeah I agree. They're too damn brilliant. lol

I guess it's different also in that there is no encroachment by mid levels into General Surgery, unlike say General IM or General Peds which would more pressure that person to subspecialize. Hence a person could be quite safe in terms of "job security" by even just doing General Surgery only.

I've always wondered though whether 5 whole years of General Surgery is really that necessary (this was the case even when there were no workhour restrictions) vs. maybe 3 or 4 and then moving on to fellowship. With so much surgical knowledge, it seems like General Surgery is an old relic, just bc so much of it has fragmented into fellowships -- a little similar to IM, but a primary care doctor is necessary to coordinate and manage chronic conditions, and I don't think General Surgeons really do that as much, unless it's some one they have just recently operated on.

We'll see with the vascular integrated. Even the vascular surgeons themselves aren't being naive and watching to see how these 5 year trainees perform out of the factory. Some schools are offering vascular 5 w/ 2 year CT fellowship. THAT I dunno about... only because I just don't even know how you'll pull off a cardiovascular surgeon once again when the whole point of CT and vascular is the opposite aim and meant to alleviate the demands a Cardiovascular surgeon would have. Heart, Lungs and vessels? Given how overworked CT surgeons tend to be already... I'm curious how this would play out.

 

[Kaustikos]

Bump:
French speaking with a love for boy-bands like Nsync/Backstreet Boys. I swear, this surgeon made burns so enjoyable. She was amazed with my knowledge, as were the scrub nurses. I looked at them like "If you were a guy who even liked girls remotely... you know this ****"

 

[fancymylotus]

I'm starting surgical residency in a month and I had my daughter 2nd year of dental school. My experience is that some people will treat you well and some people won't. Their reasons for how they treat you will be varied and the fact that I'm a woman is just another piece of that puzzle. I'm excited to work hard and be myself. I've found that in the end, knowing my ish, putting in the hard work, and helping others overcomes just about any boundary life can throw in my way.

Your blog is awesome