Hospital vaccine mandate?

[DoctwoB]

The problem is that most people are not capable of nuance or understanding relative degrees of benefit.

Vaccines are huge. They reduce cases. They reduce hospitalization and death even more. I'm a big supporter of vaccines, vaccine mandates for schools, hospitals, businesses, and any other mass gathering events. If the SEC mandated vaccines to go to football games, it would save quite literally thousands of lives. If we had higher vaccination rates, the inevitable localized surges of breakthrough infections/delta waves would not be that big a deal as hospitals would not be overwhelmed. It is the unvaccinated creating the issue.

Masks are nice. They reduce spread somewhat (for surgical masks) or relatively minimally (for cloth masks). It makes sense to use them in areas where healthcare capacity is overwhelmed, or if particularly high risk (especially if not boosted), or if you are worried about your kids getting booted from school for 2 weeks, or so on. Even there, most of the benefit is accrued by the selfish unvaccinated population, which is a hard sell for those who got their shot. But masks are nothing compared to vaccines. And given our pain in the ass public will clearly tolerate a finite amount of intrusion in their life, I think that intrusion should focus on vaccination, not mask use.

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[Birdstrike]

The problem is that most people are not capable of nuance or understanding relative degrees of benefit.

Vaccines are huge. They reduce cases. They reduce hospitalization and death even more. I'm a big supporter of vaccines, vaccine mandates for schools, hospitals, businesses, and any other mass gathering events. If the SEC mandated vaccines to go to football games, it would save quite literally thousands of lives. If we had higher vaccination rates, the inevitable localized surges of breakthrough infections/delta waves would not be that big a deal as hospitals would not be overwhelmed. It is the unvaccinated creating the issue.

Masks are nice. They reduce spread somewhat (for surgical masks) or relatively minimally (for cloth masks). It makes sense to use them in areas where healthcare capacity is overwhelmed, or if particularly high risk (especially if not boosted), or if you are worried about your kids getting booted from school for 2 weeks, or so on. Even there, most of the benefit is accrued by the selfish unvaccinated population, which is a hard sell for those who got their shot. But masks are nothing compared to vaccines. And given our pain in the ass public will clearly tolerate a finite amount of intrusion in their life, I think that intrusion should focus on vaccination, not mask use.

+1

 

[GeneralVeers]

The problem is that most people are not capable of nuance or understanding relative degrees of benefit.

Vaccines are huge. They reduce cases. They reduce hospitalization and death even more. I'm a big supporter of vaccines, vaccine mandates for schools, hospitals, businesses, and any other mass gathering events. If the SEC mandated vaccines to go to football games, it would save quite literally thousands of lives. If we had higher vaccination rates, the inevitable localized surges of breakthrough infections/delta waves would not be that big a deal as hospitals would not be overwhelmed. It is the unvaccinated creating the issue.

Masks are nice. They reduce spread somewhat (for surgical masks) or relatively minimally (for cloth masks). It makes sense to use them in areas where healthcare capacity is overwhelmed, or if particularly high risk (especially if not boosted), or if you are worried about your kids getting booted from school for 2 weeks, or so on. Even there, most of the benefit is accrued by the selfish unvaccinated population, which is a hard sell for those who got their shot. But masks are nothing compared to vaccines. And given our pain in the ass public will clearly tolerate a finite amount of intrusion in their life, I think that intrusion should focus on vaccination, not mask use.

Makes sense. Let's do police-state style vaccine mandates and watch what happens. In Australia they have thousands of middle-class workers rioting in the streets, and the police can't even contain them. Let's see what happens in America when all those same rioters would have guns.

At some point, can't you admit that your prescribed solutions would cause more harm/chaos than benefit?

I'm also not certain that masking 5-8 year olds and social-distancing them at school for their formative years is a good idea. We already have a problem with socialization among kids given rampant technology addiction. These children are literally not at any significant risk from COVID, yet we mask them, threaten, them and are probably inhibiting language/brain development.

 

[DoctwoB]

Makes sense. Let's do police-state style vaccine mandates and watch what happens. In Australia they have thousands of middle-class workers rioting in the streets, and the police can't even contain them. Let's see what happens in America when all those same rioters would have guns.

At some point, can't you admit that your prescribed solutions would cause more harm/chaos than benefit?

I'm also not certain that masking 5-8 year olds and social-distancing them at school for their formative years is a good idea. We already have a problem with socialization among kids given rampant technology addiction. These children are literally not at any significant risk from COVID, yet we mask them, threaten, them and are probably inhibiting language/brain development.

You mean police-state style like your public schools MMR mandate? Your hospitals Tdap mandate? George Washington mandating small pox innoculation for the union army? We're hardly talking about the gestapo dragging your kids into the street and poking them with needles. We are talking about mandating vaccination for schools, offices, etc, which has a long history in this country.

Saying we shouldn't undertake sound policy because some idiots with guns might protest is idiotic. There were protests against getting rid of slavery, against getting rid of seperate but equal, against gay rights. There will always those who need to be dragged kicking and screaming.

There is a big difference between using law enforcement to enforce stay at home mandates, and making vaccination a condition for employment. Nuance veers, nuance. Not all of life is a slippery slope.

 

[GeneralVeers]

You mean police-state style like your public schools MMR mandate? Your hospitals Tdap mandate? George Washington mandating small pox innoculation for the union army? We're hardly talking about the gestapo dragging your kids into the street and poking them with needles. We are talking about mandating vaccination for schools, offices, etc, which has a long history in this country.

Saying we shouldn't undertake sound policy because some idiots with guns might protest is idiotic. There were protests against getting rid of slavery, against getting rid of seperate but equal, against gay rights. There will always those who need to be dragged kicking and screaming.

There is a big difference between using law enforcement to enforce stay at home mandates, and making vaccination a condition for employment. Nuance veers, nuance. Not all of life is a slippery slope.

You are treating COVID with the equivalency of Measles and Smallpox. It should be treated like influenza, RSV, or other viruses. Measles has a fatality rate of 0.1 to 0.2% in chidlren, far higher than COVID. Smallpox has a 30% mortality rate. COVID deaths in children under 18 are 1-2 per MILLION. We are literally hysterical about a disease with negligible deaths among children. Flu has a 10X higher death rate in children, but we've never mandated national forced vaccination for flu.

You also didn't limit your argument to schools. You said all businesses, and mass gatherings. You really think it's worth broad social unrest, $billions in damage, and lives lost to enforce your likely ineffective vaccine mandates? 30-40% of the U.S. population will never get this vaccine no matter how much you try to persuade, insult, coerce, or punish them. Is it really worth your effort to target a group who will never comply?

 

[thegenius]

Makes sense. Let's do police-state style vaccine mandates and watch what happens. In Australia they have thousands of middle-class workers rioting in the streets, and the police can't even contain them. Let's see what happens in America when all those same rioters would have guns.

At some point, can't you admit that your prescribed solutions would cause more harm/chaos than benefit?

I'm also not certain that masking 5-8 year olds and social-distancing them at school for their formative years is a good idea. We already have a problem with socialization among kids given rampant technology addiction. These children are literally not at any significant risk from COVID, yet we mask them, threaten, them and are probably inhibiting language/brain development.

See this is why just about everybody on this forum doesn't take your comments seriously. @DoctwoB didn't talk about police state. He/she didn't talk about police walking around invading homes and forcing a vaccine needle into people's arms.

 

[thegenius]

You mean police-state style like your public schools MMR mandate? Your hospitals Tdap mandate? George Washington mandating small pox innoculation for the union army? We're hardly talking about the gestapo dragging your kids into the street and poking them with needles. We are talking about mandating vaccination for schools, offices, etc, which has a long history in this country.

Saying we shouldn't undertake sound policy because some idiots with guns might protest is idiotic. There were protests against getting rid of slavery, against getting rid of seperate but equal, against gay rights. There will always those who need to be dragged kicking and screaming.

There is a big difference between using law enforcement to enforce stay at home mandates, and making vaccination a condition for employment. Nuance veers, nuance. Not all of life is a slippery slope.

See that's the way he thinks. He only thinks way out on the extremes. He literally thinks it's like the gestapo.

 

[Birdstrike]

Let's do police-state style vaccine mandates and watch what happens.

I'm all for police-state style mandates banning unnecessary group chats, eating smelly food in public, invasion of personal space and slow internet. But for vaccines?

No.

 

[Arcan57]

You are treating COVID with the equivalency of Measles and Smallpox. It should be treated like influenza, RSV, or other viruses. Measles has a fatality rate of 0.1 to 0.2% in chidlren, far higher than COVID. Smallpox has a 30% mortality rate. COVID deaths in children under 18 are 1-2 per MILLION. We are literally hysterical about a disease with negligible deaths among children. Flu has a 10X higher death rate in children, but we've never mandated national forced vaccination for flu.

You also didn't limit your argument to schools. You said all businesses, and mass gatherings. You really think it's worth broad social unrest, $billions in damage, and lives lost to enforce your likely ineffective vaccine mandates? 30-40% of the U.S. population will never get this vaccine no matter how much you try to persuade, insult, coerce, or punish them. Is it really worth your effort to target a group who will never comply?

Look we get that you personally want your life to resume and having had COVID you view the direct effects of the virus as having a minimal impact on you moving forward. Mitigation efforts impinging on your joie de vivre isn't a great basis for national policy though.

How many people would have to be killed in fighting to prevent being vaccinated to start coming close to the toll COVID will take in the next quarter? Also, I think you're vastly overestimating how many people would kill or die to avoid being vaccinated. It's fine to try and bolster your numbers with every person that has ever expressed vaccine hesitancy or espoused libertarian idea online. But a large part of that support melts away in the face of actual consequences.

 

[DoctwoB]

You are treating COVID with the equivalency of Measles and Smallpox. It should be treated like influenza, RSV, or other viruses. Measles has a fatality rate of 0.1 to 0.2% in chidlren, far higher than COVID. Smallpox has a 30% mortality rate. COVID deaths in children under 18 are 1-2 per MILLION. We are literally hysterical about a disease with negligible deaths among children. Flu has a 10X higher death rate in children, but we've never mandated national forced vaccination for flu.

You also didn't limit your argument to schools. You said all businesses, and mass gatherings. You really think it's worth broad social unrest, $billions in damage, and lives lost to enforce your likely ineffective vaccine mandates? 30-40% of the U.S. population will never get this vaccine no matter how much you try to persuade, insult, coerce, or punish them. Is it really worth your effort to target a group who will never comply?

First off, if there was an effective universal influienza and RSV vaccine you bet your a** it should be mandatory to attend school.

It is also a fallacy that the unvaxx'd won't comply with mandates. Every company I know of that has applied a mandate has found a vast majority of the unvax'd get vax'd. A small minority quit. That minority will get even smaller if they don't have employers who will hire them unvax'd. It works. plain and simple. And if there are protests or riots as you threaten, then punish them according to the laws they violate. Plain and simple.

 

[emergentmd]

A couple was kicked out of a restaurant for WEARING masks. How is this protecting personal liberty?

I will see your wearing mask craziness and raise you the flight attendant making a toddler wear a mask while clearly having respiratory wheezes.

 

[emergentmd]

No one that is intelligent should think vaccine is bad. Does getting the vaccine have some bad outcomes, sure but not as bad as getting COVID. If I had to cross a fast flowing river and I had a choice between walking on a bridge that might collapse or swimming across with higher likelihood of killing you then I think the most intelligent people would chose the bridge. If you want to swim, then go for it b/c I really don't care.

The reason that some do not believe what the government pushes or even worse the left liberal Hollywood types are one of the biggest hypocritical groups.

You can't tell kids who are vaccinated to mask up in school when they throw these giant parties without anyone wearing masks. My teenager is vaccinated but still has to wear masks to school but yet all these politicians, musicians, Hollywood big wigs can do what the heck they want?

Newson, "wear masks everywhere" and he throws a party with most not wearing masks? Why would anyone listen to such a hypocrite?

 

[WilcoWorld]

I will see your wearing mask craziness and raise you the flight attendant making a toddler wear a mask while clearly having respiratory wheezes.

So kicking a couple out of a restaurant for wearing a mask protects personal liberty?

This isn't about freedom, it's about politics.

 

[rokshana]

So kicking a couple out of a restaurant for wearing a mask protects personal liberty?

This isn't about freedom, it's about politics.

And apparently the waitress told them it was a political decision… the owner doesn’t like masks… what happened to “ the customer is always right?”
I hope he loses business… but it’s Texas so…

 

[Siggy]

More and more what I'm hearing is, "I went ahead and got the vaccine, like I was supposed to. Now you want to require me to wear a mask and social distance because the anti-vaccination people didn't do what they were supposed to? No way."

I went ahead and got the vaccine, like I was supposed to... and now if I had a breakthrough infection in TN I get denied treatment (Regeneron).

Tennessee limiting monoclonal antibody treatment to unvaccinated residents

"Clinically, it makes sense," a top Tennessee health official said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[DoctwoB]

I went ahead and got the vaccine, like I was supposed to... and now if I had a breakthrough infection in TN I get denied treatment (Regeneron).

Tennessee limiting monoclonal antibody treatment to unvaccinated residents

"Clinically, it makes sense," a top Tennessee health official said.

www.nbcnews.com

That’s some first rate bullsh*t right there.

Edit: the policy, not the source, in case that wasn’t clear.

 

[Siggy]

World War II was a very different threat than COVID. I don't need to give everyone a history lesson. Equating the necessary hardship needed to rid the world of FASCISM (whoops, I'm not allowed to use that word) is not the same thing as surviving a pandemic with a survival rate of > 99%.

Fun history lesson. After WW1, the US had absolutely no interest in ridding the world of fascism. We were perfectly content to let Europe go and kill each other as long as we weren't directly involved. We didn't care enough to get directly involved in Europe until Germany was stupid enough to honor their treaty requirements with Japan.

 

[Siggy]

Makes sense. Let's do police-state style vaccine mandates and watch what happens. In Australia they have thousands of middle-class workers rioting in the streets, and the police can't even contain them. Let's see what happens in America when all those same rioters would have guns.

I mean it's been done before and is perfectly constitutional. If those rioters don't like that and hate this country, they're free to leave the country. I heard that there are some free flights to Haiti. They can take their Jan 6th home boys with them and we can let in some people who actually want to be here.

 

[emergentmd]

So kicking a couple out of a restaurant for wearing a mask protects personal liberty?

This isn't about freedom, it's about politics.

The owner has the right to serve whoever they want. Mask wearers are not a protected class. Its stupid and could jeopardize his business but its still his decision. His decision has nothing to do with personal liberty, he just is against it and has the right to not serve this person just like restaurants who will not serve if you don't wear shoes.

Freedom and Politics are intertwined so really its about both.

Everything in this country seems political and if not, then give the dems/repub a few months and they will make it as such.

 

[turkeyjerky]

That’s some first rate bullsh*t right there.

Edit: the policy, not the source, in case that wasn’t clear.

Why? Is there any evidence that mab therapy is effective in those previously vaccinated? It's an absurdly expensive drug with a limited supply.

 

[RustedFox]

Why? Is there any evidence that mab therapy is effective in those previously vaccinated? It's an absurdly expensive drug with a limited supply.

Is there any evidence that it has any benefit, at all?
Seriously asking; I'm too lazy to find and review an article myself today.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Is there any evidence that it has any benefit, at all?
Seriously asking; I'm too lazy to find and review an article myself today.

Table: Anti-SARS-CoV-2 Monoclonal Antibodies Clinical Data | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines

Review clinical data on the use of anti-SARS-CoV-2 monoclonal antibodies for the treatment of COVID-19.

www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov

A little.

It’s probably amazing as a prophylactic after exposure treatment but I don’t know of anyone actually doing that now given the supply constraints.

moving forward that’s probably the move: get an index case at a SNF and give all the olds/staff SQ antibodies.

 

[Siggy]

Why? Is there any evidence that mab therapy is effective in those previously vaccinated? It's an absurdly expensive drug with a limited supply.

Is there any evidence that it's not effective?

It sounds like we should be encouraging vaccinations first if it's so expensive and limited... yet you hear a lot more cheering from certain governors over experimental mAb therapy than fully approved vaccinations.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Is there any evidence that it has any benefit, at all?
Seriously asking; I'm too lazy to find and review an article myself today.

I think, if you believe the manufacturer's data (which is likely suspect 2/2 fluffing) there's basically a 4% absolute risk reduction in need for subsequent hospitalization. Tiny study, fragility index is probably 1 or 2.

This in pre-vaccine times. With high-risk patients. (My guess is, higher risk than the average mildly obese 28 yo asthmatic).

So a NNT of 25, at a cost of 50k per avoided hospitalization.

 

[Birdstrike]

So kicking a couple out of a restaurant for wearing a mask protects personal liberty?

You're asking me to choose between one side of an argument, versus taking the side of "a helpless, sick baby." I'm fighting for the sick baby, bro. Every time. To hell with the other side and whatever it is they want.


That's the classic "high ground" maneuver, in persuasion, by the way. It's highly effective. Frame your argument such that taking the other side becomes unwinnable, if you accept the framing.

 

[southerndoc]

Why? Is there any evidence that mab therapy is effective in those previously vaccinated? It's an absurdly expensive drug with a limited supply.

It's free to the patient (well except the taxes you pay). The government eats all costs. It's still cheaper than a 1 to 3 week admission.

 

[Birdstrike]

I think the easier and more fundamental question is how someone can be legally removed for WEARING a mask. If their kid has CF and they want to protect themself that sounds like a disabilities violation. If they wanted to go a legal route that place would get destroyed. It's one thing not to require masks, it's flagrantly illegal to ban them with disabilities.

In the example, the baby was not in the restaurant or involved in the mask/no mask debate. The child was at home, being watched by the grandparent. So, it's not like they were forcing a CF kid to take off a mask. It was the parents who wanted to wear masks on their night out, so they would be less likely to bring COVID home to the CF kid, which I think is completely reasonable and probably what I'd do, by the way. But to say it was violating the American Disabilities Act, when the disabled person was nowhere to be found, not denied access to anything, or forced to do/not do anything, is a stretch, in my opinion. But I'm no lawyer.

 

[Birdstrike]

Did you hear about the family that walked into a restaurant with a "MASKS REQUIRED! NO EXCEPTIONS!" sign?

Mom and Dad, who are fully vaccinated, are wearing masks. Their child, also fully vaccinated, who has severe anxiety, severe autism, facial deformities and a rare lung condition requiring precise oxygen and CO2 balance, is not wearing a mask. The waitress comes over to the table and says, "You must put a mask on your child. Orders from the owner. No exceptions."

"But our son's pediatrician says he shouldn't be forced to wear a mask. It can harm his breathing, cause severe anxiety attacks, which can further harm his breathing. We tried once and he had to spend five days in the ICU. Plus, there is no mask mandate in this town and COVID cases are near zero right now."

The owner comes to the table, "It's my personal freedom to require or not require masks in my restaurant. Put a mask on him now! You're violating my personal liberty and spreading a deadly virus!" The child starts to cry and appears short of breath.

Is that a "win for personal liberty"?

 

[miacomet]

SARS-CoV-2 mRNA Vaccination-Associated Myocarditis in Children Ages 12-17: A Stratified National Database Analysis

Objectives Establishing the rate of post-vaccination cardiac myocarditis in the 12-15 and 16-17-year-old population in the context of their COVID-19 hospitalization risk is critical for developing a vaccination recommendation framework that balances harms with benefits for this patient...

www.medrxiv.org

Why do people give preprints the same weight as peer-reviewed, published literature? We went down this road with hydroxy and ivermectin, and it did not end well.

 

[Birdstrike]

Why do people give preprints the same weight as peer-reviewed, published literature? We went down this road with hydroxy and ivermectin, and it did not end well.

Early on in the pandemic, when there was little if anything published on all things COVID, I think it made sense to look at pre-prints, simply because that's all we had. I posted a few. The more we learn about COVID and the bigger the base of knowledge and quality research grows, the more and more sense I think it makes to wait until they're reviewed and published. The subject of myocarditis in young males isn't controversial or new.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Why do people give preprints the same weight as peer-reviewed, published literature? We went down this road with hydroxy and ivermectin, and it did not end well.

With hcq, there weren’t even any preprints supporting it, just protocols from MGH, Duke, etc.

 

[turkeyjerky]

It's free to the patient (well except the taxes you pay). The government eats all costs. It's still cheaper than a 1 to 3 week admission.

Not sure why this is the one thing the right wingers who’re against socialized medicine are cool with…

Also, I’m not sure it is cheaper…you might have to infuse 400 people to prevent one case of icu-level covid (in the vaccinated). That’s 1.6 million dollars.

 

[Birdstrike]

With hcq, there weren’t even any preprints supporting it, just protocols from MGH, Duke, etc.

From what I remember, it all started in 2005 when they showed Chloroquine killed SARS-COV-1, in vitro (VIrology Journal). That's why when SARS-COV-2 came along, everyone jumped to HCQ, as a less toxic alternative to Chloroquine, first in China during the Wuhan outbreak, before it was even tried in USA. People seem to forget, but that's what all the "smart people" were doing early on, before the "smart people" decided HCQ wasn't so smart. Now, there's a lot of revisionist history going on, as usual, as early HCQ adopters pretend they never espoused it.

 

[Arcan57]

"But our son's pediatrician says he shouldn't be forced to wear a mask. It can harm his breathing, cause severe anxiety attacks, which can further harm his breathing. We tried once and he had to spend five days in the ICU. Plus, there is no mask mandate in this town and COVID cases are near zero right now."

The owner comes to the table, "It's my personal freedom to require or not require masks in my restaurant. Put a mask on him now! You're violating my personal liberty and spreading a deadly virus!" The child starts to cry and appears short of breath.

Is that a "win for personal liberty"?

Liberty's definition is already so tortured and stretched as to be unrecognizable. The gaping chasm between what the word meant when it was enshrined in our founding documents and what it's used for now has only grown wider with COVID. Personal liberty is not an absolute good. Anything that infringes on personal liberty is not tyranny. Pretending otherwise is guaranteed to further divide our society.

 

[Birdstrike]

Liberty's definition is already so tortured and stretched as to be unrecognizable. The gaping chasm between what the word meant when it was enshrined in our founding documents and what it's used for now has only grown wider with COVID. Personal liberty is not an absolute good. Anything that infringes on personal liberty is not tyranny. Pretending otherwise is guaranteed to further divide our society.

You, very smartly didn't answer my question, as framed.

 

[thegenius]

Did you hear about the family that walked into a restaurant with a "MASKS REQUIRED! NO EXCEPTIONS!" sign?

Mom and Dad, who are fully vaccinated, are wearing masks. Their child, also fully vaccinated, who has severe anxiety, severe autism, facial deformities and a rare lung condition requiring precise oxygen and CO2 balance, is not wearing a mask. The waitress comes over to the table and says, "You must put a mask on your child. Orders from the owner. No exceptions."

"But our son's pediatrician says he shouldn't be forced to wear a mask. It can harm his breathing, cause severe anxiety attacks, which can further harm his breathing. We tried once and he had to spend five days in the ICU. Plus, there is no mask mandate in this town and COVID cases are near zero right now."

The owner comes to the table, "It's my personal freedom to require or not require masks in my restaurant. Put a mask on him now! You're violating my personal liberty and spreading a deadly virus!" The child starts to cry and appears short of breath.

Is that a "win for personal liberty"?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Probably because I'm not that smart. In any case, if the owner wants to enforce wearing a mask (during a pandemic no less), then I'm not sure why the family above is insistent on going to that particular restaurant.

 

[rokshana]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Probably because I'm not that smart. In any case, if the owner wants to enforce wearing a mask (during a pandemic no less), then I'm not sure why the family above is insistent on going to that particular restaurant.

There was no posted sign…if the owner really want to mandate in his restaurant, then he should post it at the door.

 

[thegenius]

There was no posted sign…if the owner really want to mandate in his restaurant, then he should post it at the door.

That's fine. He should post signs, create social media messages and send a postcard to every house within 50 mile radius of his restaurant.

 

[emergentmd]

Our Group has done close to 2000 Mab infusions and I do not believe there has been even one pt return with Covid pneumonia or needing hospitalization when done before they had Pneumonia.

We have had atleast 20 pts return with Covid Pneumonia or needing admission that refused Mab at time of diagnosis.

I don't know if the studies will pan my belief out, but from my limited experience, it has greatly decreased morbidity and hospital admission.

Is it expensive? Who knows the government is paying for it so to me its free b/c they are printing money for many worthless projects

Is there a supply issue? NO. I do not know of any site that had issues getting Regen shipped within a few days. Actually, if a city did not have an infusion area, it was due to not opening one and not b/c they could not get a supply.

But NOW, it is a supply issue b/c Biden suddenly says there is an issue and turned it into some political tool. Why fix something when there was no issues and then use some nebulous reasoning? Another Administration failure IMO.

 

[emergentmd]

Before Mab, I tell every covid pt to go home, measure your O2 sats, take vitamins and go to the hospital when you O2 sats are low so you can be hospitalized. What great medicine.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Not sure why this is the one thing the right wingers who’re against socialized medicine are cool with…

Also, I’m not sure it is cheaper…you might have to infuse 400 people to prevent one case of icu-level covid (in the vaccinated). That’s 1.6 million dollars.

Agree completely. The cost is tremendous, and I don't care who's paying for it. I've heard mostly anecdotal evidence, but how many people do you have to infuse at the cost of $thousands to prevent one hospital admission? The cost/benefit analysis may not make much sense. That money might be more wisely spent expanding bed capacity, home oxygen equipment, and outpatient testing facilities.

 

[thegenius]

Agree completely. The cost is tremendous, and I don't care who's paying for it. I've heard mostly anecdotal evidence, but how many people do you have to infuse at the cost of $thousands to prevent one hospital admission? The cost/benefit analysis may not make much sense. That money might be more wisely spent expanding bed capacity, home oxygen equipment, and outpatient testing facilities.

Sounds like rationing to me, and I agree with that. We can't give every person every single test or treatment available right away when the patient or doctor wants it.

I'll let other people debate whether Regeneron is worth the cost. I don't know. My hospital wants me to give it, and anecdotally to me it appears to prevent hospitalizations. I've never admitted COVID with + mAB administered prior. Whether the cost is worth it is for other people to decide.

Rationing is key in just about every other health care system in the world, and their health care outcomes are no worse than ours. And in some cases probably better.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Our Group has done close to 2000 Mab infusions and I do not believe there has been even one pt return with Covid pneumonia or needing hospitalization when done before they had Pneumonia.

We have had atleast 20 pts return with Covid Pneumonia or needing admission that refused Mab at time of diagnosis.

I don't know if the studies will pan my belief out, but from my limited experience, it has greatly decreased morbidity and hospital admission.

Is it expensive? Who knows the government is paying for it so to me its free b/c they are printing money for many worthless projects

Is there a supply issue? NO. I do not know of any site that had issues getting Regen shipped within a few days. Actually, if a city did not have an infusion area, it was due to not opening one and not b/c they could not get a supply.

But NOW, it is a supply issue b/c Biden suddenly says there is an issue and turned it into some political tool. Why fix something when there was no issues and then use some nebulous reasoning? Another Administration failure IMO.

My hospital and the 4 others within 45 miles all ran out completely for about a week way before Biden took over.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Sounds like rationing to me, and I agree with that. We can't give every person every single test or treatment available right away when the patient or doctor wants it.

I'll let other people debate whether Regeneron is worth the cost. I don't know. My hospital wants me to give it, and anecdotally to me it appears to prevent hospitalizations. I've never admitted COVID with + mAB administered prior. Whether the cost is worth it is for other people to decide.

Rationing is key in just about every other health care system in the world, and their health care outcomes are no worse than ours. And in some cases probably better.

I've been all for rationing. If people want to pay out of pocket, let them, but for anything taxpayer/government funded then rationing is the only possible way forward. I have given Regeneron a handful of times. Mostly to people who request it, because there's not much point arguing. The majority of people who I see who would qualify based on age/comorbidities are already sick enough to warrant hospital admission by the time I see them.

 

[emergentmd]

My hospital and the 4 others within 45 miles all ran out completely for about a week way before Biden took over.

Probably bc Biden pulled all the orders. No one I know of ran out but a week before Biden’s orders, they started to slow roll the deliveries prob bc they knew it was coming then can cancelled existing orders.

delta is waning so I doubt there would have been a shortage regardless but my trust In The government is Quite low.

 

[WilcoWorld]

just like restaurants who will not serve if you don't wear shoes

So you're arguing that it's ok for a restaurant to refuse service for not wearing shoes (or a mask), did I get that right?

I think we agree - this is not about "personal liberty". That's why I pointed it out. People argue that the mask and vaccine controversy are about "personal liberty". They clearly are not.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Probably bc Biden pulled all the orders. No one I know of ran out but a week before Biden’s orders, they started to slow roll the deliveries prob bc they knew it was coming then can cancelled existing orders.

delta is waning so I doubt there would have been a shortage regardless but my trust In The government is Quite low.

Did you miss where I specifically said this happened before Biden got involved?

 

[GeneralVeers]

So you're arguing that it's ok for a restaurant to refuse service for not wearing shoes (or a mask), did I get that right?

I think we agree - this is not about "personal liberty". That's why I pointed it out. People argue that the mask and vaccine controversy are about "personal liberty". They clearly are not.

So a private business can make limitations provided it doesn't directly infringe upon constitutional liberties. A restaurant mandating masks would be acceptable. I consider it a violation of liberty when government is forcing people to do things. We can argue all day about the semantics and past precedence.

The big problem we have now is the blurring of public/private. Governments, especially state governments like Massachusetts are using "private" social media platforms to infringe upon 1st amendment rights. An interesting summation of the (dropped) case is here: Shiva Ayyadurai Drops His Potentially Interesting Lawsuit About Massachusetts Officials Complaining To Twitter About Tweets

 

[coachB]

Our Group has done close to 2000 Mab infusions and I do not believe there has been even one pt return with Covid pneumonia or needing hospitalization when done before they had Pneumonia.

We have had atleast 20 pts return with Covid Pneumonia or needing admission that refused Mab at time of diagnosis.

I don't know if the studies will pan my belief out, but from my limited experience, it has greatly decreased morbidity and hospital admission.

Is it expensive? Who knows the government is paying for it so to me its free b/c they are printing money for many worthless projects

Is there a supply issue? NO. I do not know of any site that had issues getting Regen shipped within a few days. Actually, if a city did not have an infusion area, it was due to not opening one and not b/c they could not get a supply.

But NOW, it is a supply issue b/c Biden suddenly says there is an issue and turned it into some political tool. Why fix something when there was no issues and then use some nebulous reasoning? Another Administration failure IMO.

How do you know if they are hospitalized or not? Don't you think maybe they go to a real hospital at that point?

Regardless, your anecdote is not the least bit consistent with the only published (as a pre-print, not peer reviewed three months later) data. In that likely best case scenario the NNT to prevent one hospitalization is actually more in the 30s. And that data is suspect in more than one way.

But if you have compelling data to show that this works, I'm sure Regeneron would be happy to support its publication including a generous author stipend.

 

[emergentmd]

Did you miss where I specifically said this happened before Biden got involved?

I can't prove it but I am quite sure Biden got involved before he announced it. We could order and get Regen essentially within 24-48 hrs. Our last shipment was delayed for close to a week. We kept asking what the delay was without a clear answer. Then suddenly Biden sends out his takeover of Mab.

I can connect the dots.