Hospital vaccine mandate?

[xaelia]

New Zealand is bound to have thousands of cases....even once everyone is vaccinated. I'm not sure there's a way to prevent that. The vaccine may prevent hospitalizations, but you probably will still end up with almost everyone getting infected eventually just like OZ is heading towards.

Yep.

I think there might have been a naive hopeful time where vaccinated people had ironclad defense against contracting and transmitting SARS-CoV-2, but that sure ain't happening.

Some parts of Oz are getting run over while still trying to catch up on vaccinations. NZ is just trying to stave off the wave as long as it can so it doesn't get into the same mess.

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[Birdstrike]

Looks like New Zealand has finally given up.

New Zealand admits it can no longer get rid of coronavirus

New Zealand’s government has acknowledged what most other countries did long ago: It can no longer completely get rid of the coronavirus

abcnews.go.com

Anger and grief: New Zealanders fearful as Covid elimination strategy ends

Concerns about the toll a suppression approach may take have dampened excitement about loosened restrictions

www.theguardian.com

 

[GeneralVeers]

Just in time for the "trial" of their not-Nazi vaccine pass.

 

[Birdstrike]

Sweden, Denmark pause Moderna COVID-19 vaccine for younger age groups

Sweden and Denmark said on Wednesday they are pausing the use of Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine for younger age groups after reports of possible rare cardiovascular side effects. The Swedish health agency said it would pause using the shot for people born in 1991 and later as data pointed to an...

www.yahoo.com

cc: @Old_Mil

 

[DoctwoB]

Just in time for the "trial" of their not-Nazi vaccine pass.

Handy Flowchart for you Veers

 

[GeneralVeers]

"Papers Please"

 

[BoardingDoc]

"Papers Please"

Fantastic game. Glory to Arstotzka.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

"Papers Please"

Like the papers you show when entering a bar? Or the ones for re-entering the country? Or the ones for prescribing medications? Or the ones to get a driver's license or bank account? Or attend school?

 

[Apollyon]

Like the papers you show when entering a bar? Or the ones for re-entering the country? Or the ones for prescribing medications? Or the ones to get a driver's license or bank account? Or attend school?

You stop! When someone has an agenda, they have to "agendize" it! Your reasonable and common sensical response disrupts that!

 

[GeneralVeers]

Like the papers you show when entering a bar? Or the ones for re-entering the country? Or the ones for prescribing medications? Or the ones to get a driver's license or bank account? Or attend school?

You got me. I agree fully we should show national vaccine passports everywhere in order to participate in daily life. Let's put all of our personal health information on the table while we are at it. Glory be to Panam!

 

[rokshana]

Like the papers you show when entering a bar? Or the ones for re-entering the country? Or the ones for prescribing medications? Or the ones to get a driver's license or bank account? Or attend school?

Or the number you were given to get that sweet social security check?

 

[GeneralVeers]

Or the number you were given to get that sweet social security check?

Or the ID you don't have to show in many states to vote?

 

[GeneralVeers]

We are comparing very specific circumstances where you have to show government-issued ID, with a broad-based app displaying personal health records in order to participate in the very basic activities of daily living. Why do I need to show my personal health records to go to a restaurant, supermarket, enter a shopping mall, or go to a theater? It's irrelevant, and an invasion of privacy to do so.

 

[turkeyjerky]

We are comparing very specific circumstances where you have to show government-issued ID, with a broad-based app displaying personal health records in order to participate in the very basic activities of daily living. Why do I need to show my personal health records to go to a restaurant, supermarket, enter a shopping mall, or go to a theater? It's irrelevant, and an invasion of privacy to do so.

Because you people (and yes, I mean that in the most pejorative sense possible) have refused to get a widely available, extremely safe, extraordinarily effective vaccination and have thus continued to place the rest of the population at risk from an overburdened healthcare system. So basic life activities need to be be made unnecessarily difficult or inaccessible in order to convince all these asshats that their 'principles' and 'freedoms' aren't worth it anymore.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You got me. I agree fully we should show national vaccine passports everywhere in order to participate in daily life. Let's put all of our personal health information on the table while we are at it. Glory be to Panam!

What on Earth are you blathering about? It's one simple thing: did you get a COVID vaccine. That's it. Nothing else is needed or being asked for.

 

[thegenius]

We are comparing very specific circumstances where you have to show government-issued ID, with a broad-based app displaying personal health records in order to participate in the very basic activities of daily living. Why do I need to show my personal health records to go to a restaurant, supermarket, enter a shopping mall, or go to a theater? It's irrelevant, and an invasion of privacy to do so.

Because there is a small chance you can kill someone. And you won't even know it. It's not intrusive to provide evidence that you received a vaccine.

If I as a vaccinated person go into a restaurant or mall, there is basically a zero chance I will kill someone.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Stating that someone ‘kills’ someone else by unintentionally spreading COVID-19 is overly hyperbolic and leads to further division.

Everyone will eventually be exposed or infected with COVID-19. It’s not purely any one individual’s fault for being the source of transmission, because if it wasn’t them then it would be someone else. This disease is too widespread, too contagious, and it’s eradication before becoming endemic wasn’t realistic.

Immunization also doesn’t equate to complete prevention in spreading COVID-19.

 

[Siggy]

Or the ID you don't have to show in many states to vote?

If our Founding Fathers thought we needed to show ID to vote, then they would have included that when they wrote the Constitution.

 

[Siggy]

Fantastic game. Glory to Arstotzka.

I see my work here is done.

 

[deleted836128]

Because there is a small chance you can kill someone. And you won't even know it. It's not intrusive to provide evidence that you received a vaccine.

If I as a vaccinated person go into a restaurant or mall, there is basically a zero chance I will kill someone.

... are you... for real...? You think you can’t spread COVID when you’re vaccinated...?

 

[DoctwoB]

We are comparing very specific circumstances where you have to show government-issued ID, with a broad-based app displaying personal health records in order to participate in the very basic activities of daily living. Why do I need to show my personal health records to go to a restaurant, supermarket, enter a shopping mall, or go to a theater? It's irrelevant, and an invasion of privacy to do so.

Personal health records? You’re ridiculous. It’s a yes or no question.

Your ID (which you have to show to get into a bar or airport, Oh the Humanity) has a hell of a lot more PHI on it, like age, height, weight, hair color, eye color, and your preference for donating organs. And ironically you want that to be necessary to vote, a right guaranteed by our constitution, in a way that attending a baseball game is not. It’s rich.

 

[thegenius]

Stating that someone ‘kills’ someone else by unintentionally spreading COVID-19 is overly hyperbolic and leads to further division.

Everyone will eventually be exposed or infected with COVID-19. It’s not purely any one individual’s fault for being the source of transmission, because if it wasn’t them then it would be someone else. This disease is too widespread, too contagious, and it’s eradication before becoming endemic wasn’t realistic.

Immunization also doesn’t equate to complete prevention in spreading COVID-19.

Ok fine, I'll be more accurate. People will be lying at home with fevers, chest tightness and pleuritic chest pain for 10 days. 2/100 will end up in the hospital and a few of those will die. Multiply that by 200 million.

Whatever. There are two contingents on this debate who post on this forum and we have been debating the same thing for 1.5 years. Everybody repeats the same thing over and over and over.

 

[doctalaughs]

New Zealand is bound to have thousands of cases....even once everyone is vaccinated. I'm not sure there's a way to prevent that. The vaccine may prevent hospitalizations, but you probably will still end up with almost everyone getting infected eventually just like OZ is heading towards.

Isn’t that the point? Get close to 100% vaccination and then go back to normal knowing it’s not going to destroy the hospital infrastructure and cause the minimum deaths possible?

The problem is that stupid people won’t take the vaccine. But that’s pretty easily solved with a mandate, like most countries (even western democracies) are coming around to.

We don’t have to be a totalitarian state dragging people from their homes and forcing needles in their arms. But restricting their ability to participate in society is totally reasonable (no restaurants, trains, bars, stadiums, school or workplace unless you participate in the solution for the good of your society). It’s sort of like how you need to treat kids— don’t help out the group, don’t get to play.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

There may be two ‘sides,’ but many are in the middle scared of disease yet also skeptical or distrusting of medicine. Everyone knows someone who died in a hospital, so they must have killed them. Alternatively there are people who want to flog their grandma right up until death with every medical intervention. Both ‘sides’ have people that use unnecessarily inflammatory language primarily because they are just frustrated. They want everyone to see the world the same way they do. You will find yourself less miserable if you can allow yourself to see the world for the imperfection and melting pot that it is instead of hoping for utopia, which may inadvertently become dystopian.

An apple a day usually keeps the doctor away (at least until you’re old as no one gets out alive). As is often the case, there isn’t a magic cure that medicine can provide. Some preventative strategies and therapies may help, but the pandemic will occur until it’s endemic. 2 years down and likely 1 more to go. We’re in the last phase and almost through. Hang in there!

 

[thegenius]

There may be two ‘sides,’ but many are in the middle scared of disease yet also skeptical or distrusting of medicine. Everyone knows someone who died in a hospital, so they must have killed them. Alternatively there are people who want to flog their grandma right up until death with every medical intervention. Both ‘sides’ have people that use unnecessarily

Not on this board

 

[greatnt249]

We’re in the last phase and almost through. Hang in there!

Heard that one three phases ago.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Ok fine, I'll be more accurate. People will be lying at home with fevers, chest tightness and pleuritic chest pain for 10 days. 2/100 will end up in the hospital and a few of those will die. Multiply that by 200 million.

Whatever. There are two contingents on this debate who post on this forum and we have been debating the same thing for 1.5 years. Everybody repeats the same thing over and over and over.

I think the reason that this "debate" has become so unfruitful is because those who oppose vaccination and masking are not engaging in good faith. The rationale against masking and vaccinating is so self-contradicting that it's clearly not based on reason or honesty.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Heard that one three phases ago.

I’ve maintained that this pandemic would last 3 years from the very beginning once it became clear this wasn’t SARS 1 or MERS, and was spreading globally. We were never going to reach eradication before it spread throughout all of society in multiple waves. We did everyone a disservice by continuing to prematurely tell people it would be over soon. This led to a continual breakdown in trust.

 

[xaelia]

Looks like New Zealand has finally given up.

New Zealand admits it can no longer get rid of coronavirus

New Zealand’s government has acknowledged what most other countries did long ago: It can no longer completely get rid of the coronavirus

abcnews.go.com

Anger and grief: New Zealanders fearful as Covid elimination strategy ends

Concerns about the toll a suppression approach may take have dampened excitement about loosened restrictions

www.theguardian.com

Depends what you mean by "given up". We haven't stopped trying to quash transmission. Auckland, along with Hamilton and parts of the Waikato, are heavily restricted and we're still trying to contain it. However, it's pretty clear the chances are vanishingly small for getting lucky and going back to zero cases with the Delta strain.

The plan was for early 2022 to be the sort of transition phase away from zero COVID, now we're looking at the end of 2021 being that phase as vaccination accelerates in the face of increasing threat. New Zealand has a culture of sacrificing some individual freedom/privacy for the greater good, much like Europe, so vaccine passports will likely be part the transition, trying to balance safe economic activity with mitigating burden of cases on the health system. No big deal; we already use our phones to scan contact-tracing QR codes everywhere we go.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Interesting.......

 

[thegenius]

ergo....
let's not get vaccinated!

everybody run around kissing and hugging each other!

let's have millions of people die!!! Yahoo!


That stupid graphic above is so easily refutable. we don't care about covid sniffles. We care about covid intubations and death. Where is that graph, Mister Death?


Moreover that graph above isn't even annotated properly. In the 30-39 cohort, there are more infections in non-vaccinated than vaccinated.

 

[bravotwozero]

ergo....
let's not get vaccinated!

everybody run around kissing and hugging each other!

let's have millions of people die!!! Yahoo!


That stupid graphic above is so easily refutable. we don't care about covid sniffles. We care about covid intubations and death. Where is that graph, Mister Death?


Moreover that graph above isn't even annotated properly. In the 30-39 cohort, there are more infections in non-vaccinated than vaccinated.

No to mention the vacccination rate in England is very high now, so it’s a numbers game. There’s more vaccinated with infections, because there’s only so many unvaccinated left….

 

[thegenius]

No to mention the vacccination rate in England is very high now, so it’s a numbers game. There’s more vaccinated with infections, because there’s only so many unvaccinated left….

Yup.
Overall a useless graph

 

[GeneralVeers]

Yup.
Overall a useless graph

Why useless? It's per capita infections, so at the very least vaxxed and unvaxxed should have similar incidence of infection. One would hope that the vaccinated would be lower. I do understand it doesn't comment on hospitalization or mortality, but bizarre statistical results nonetheless.

 

[GeneralVeers]

No to mention the vacccination rate in England is very high now, so it’s a numbers game. There’s more vaccinated with infections, because there’s only so many unvaccinated left….

Not true. The graph is infections/100,000 people, so the vaccination rate shouldn't make a difference.

 

[turkeyjerky]

No to mention the vacccination rate in England is very high now, so it’s a numbers game. There’s more vaccinated with infections, because there’s only so many unvaccinated left….

This is a accurate argument with regard to total # of infections, however it doesn't hold water with regard to number of infections/100k population as listed in the graph.

I think we're seeing that 'herd immunity' has commonly defined, is likely not possible with this virus (at least through vaccination). This virus isn't going anywhere, it's here to stay. However, it is clear that vaccination is effective in reducing the severity of disease to the point that we don't need to alter day-to-day life any longer. Part of 'living with covid' will entail not caring about the number of infections, stopping the quarantines of exposed persons and accepting the possibility of a breakthrough infection. We've lived with viral respiratory tract infections for millennia and will need to continue doing so.

 

[emergentmd]

So let me get this straight.

If you are unvaccinated, get covid, give it to another person who dies, then you essentially murdered them? It sounds like to some on here, a crime has been committed.

but

If a vaccinated gets covid, gives it, they die then oh well?

As we have found out, Delta has infected alot of card carriers. So if you are a card carrier, then you can go about your business and spread it anywhere you want?

Also, how are we to regulate this card carrying requirement? People are making fake cards and takes about 5 minute to print one out.

I understand the emotional soapbox people get on, but lets be practical and its a mandate that is impossible to enforce. I doubt we even have a database to verify vaccine status.

Someone tell me how this is going to work? So cali is requiring proof for sporting events. Say you go to a football game with 70K attendance. I show my card, then how are they going to verify it or is it just a look and an Oh.... this looks about right. It will be impossible to verify status, so what is the point of mandating something you are not going to verify?

 

[thegenius]

Murder most foul!

 

[Arcan57]

Someone tell me how this is going to work? So cali is requiring proof for sporting events. Say you go to a football game with 70K attendance. I show my card, then how are they going to verify it or is it just a look and an Oh.... this looks about right. It will be impossible to verify status, so what is the point of mandating something you are not going to verify?

So tell me how this going to work? The state of Georgia requires proof of competency for driving. A driver's license if you will. So let's say I buy a fake driver's license. How are they going to verify it? They don't have enough officers to check everyone before the driver starts the car. There are still going to be people that don't have a driver's license operating motor vehicles. So really, what's the point in requiring driver's licenses?

Vaccine mandates have been demonstrated to be overwhelmingly effective when implemented. Your all or nothing fallacy is woefully ineffective at propping up your position.

 

[emergentmd]

So tell me how this going to work? The state of Georgia requires proof of competency for driving. A driver's license if you will. So let's say I buy a fake driver's license. How are they going to verify it? They don't have enough officers to check everyone before the driver starts the car. There are still going to be people that don't have a driver's license operating motor vehicles. So really, what's the point in requiring driver's licenses?

Vaccine mandates have been demonstrated to be overwhelmingly effective when implemented. Your all or nothing fallacy is woefully ineffective at propping up your position.

First of all I am vaccinated and believe it works. No one is disputing it.

But what is the point of mandating something that is impossible to enforce. If you are going to use a driver's license comparison, it would be akin to having a checkpoint on the busiest interstate and verifying drivers license then cross reference the DMV database which would put traffic back for 5+ hours. Impractical. Your comparison would be like having a Covid police force checking people randomly to verify status which actually may work but I do not believe we even have a reliable covid vax database.

Again, nice to live in fantasy land instead of doing something practical.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Interesting.......

Whoever made this graph either has an agenda or isn't very bright. Rates of infection do appear to be higher among the fully vaccinated groups, but only in the 40-79 age range. I'll assume 80+ was included because it looks close, though you can see that unvaccinated actually is higher, but including 30-39 is just obviously wrong.

All of that said, I don't fully understand these data. Why is unvaccinated infection insanely high in 0-39 compared to vaccinated, but suddenly vaccinated infection rates seem higher in the 40-79 age range?

 

[BoardingDoc]

That stupid graphic above is so easily refutable. we don't care about covid sniffles. We care about covid intubations and death. Where is that graph, Mister Death?

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_37_v2.pdf

 

[Arcan57]

First of all I am vaccinated and believe it works. No one is disputing it.

But what is the point of mandating something that is impossible to enforce. If you are going to use a driver's license comparison, it would be akin to having a checkpoint on the busiest interstate and verifying drivers license then cross reference the DMV database which would put traffic back for 5+ hours. Impractical. Your comparison would be like having a Covid police force checking people randomly to verify status which actually may work but I do not believe we even have a reliable covid vax database.

Again, nice to live in fantasy land instead of doing something practical.

You’re still off in fallacy land. It’s not “impossible” to enforce. 100% effective enforcement is logistically very difficult but the existence of the mandate increases compliance. This has been demonstrated empirically. You can’t get into a concert without a ticket, having your bag searched, etc. The infrastructure to allow/deny entrance to an individual at a mass gathering event based on certain predefined criteria already exists.

What’s weird for me is that you say you’re in favor of vaccines but then come up with this BS defeatist proclamations whenever the topic of incentivizing vaccination comes up. If requiring proof of vaccination causes 1000 people to buy fake vaccine cards and 1000 people to get vaccinated, that’s a win right?

 

[GeneralVeers]

The original goal of mandates was to "protect people". It's looking increasingly likely based on data from Singapore, Israel and the UK that the vaccine doesn't offer significant protection from contracting/spreading the virus. If that's true then the entire case for vaccine mandates disappears. It should then become a personal choice based on health risk.

Why enforce a pointless mandate by threatening, segregating, and jailing people like they are doing in Australia?

 

[emergentmd]

Ok. Let’s require a card for every public place we go bc that’s what u want right?

70k going to a football game. Check and verify all cards. Deny entry to those 5k who forgot their card. Hire bunch more people to verify.

Good luck.

Mom and pop restaurant. Government has added this burden so time to hire more staff not avail currently. Don’t do this, then secret shopper gov official will fine you.

Good luck.

Your living in an insane fantasy land. Tell me where this covid card database is. I haven’t heard of one. How do u propose verifying cards? Have u ever seen a gov run database. It goes down all the time.

My last reply to you but keep living in your fantasy land


The majority are vaccinated and with increased vaccination, the vast pos majority will be vaccinated. So ur still letting a group in that are carrying the majority of cases.

Why don’t we just jail all the unvaccinated, give them the shot and be done w it? Why waste all this time and money?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Ok. Let’s require a card for every public place we go bc that’s what u want right?

70k going to a football game. Check and verify all cards. Deny entry to those 5k who forgot their card. Hire bunch more people to verify.

Good luck.

Mom and pop restaurant. Government has added this burden so time to hire more staff not avail currently. Don’t do this, then secret shopper gov official will fine you.

Good luck.

Your living in an insane fantasy land. Tell me where this covid card database is. I haven’t heard of one. How do u propose verifying cards? Have u ever seen a gov run database. It goes down all the time.

My last reply to you but keep living in your fantasy land

Have you even looked at how other countries are doing this?

Australia once you're fully vaccinated you get a QR code that's unique to you. Businesses download a QR reader for cell phones and scan your QR code. It would add maybe 10 seconds of effort.

Football stadiums have security check points you have to pass through, add a QR scanner for when you go through the metal detector.

Seriously, this would take some effort but its no anything close to impossible.

 

[d2305]

If our Founding Fathers thought we needed to show ID to vote, then they would have included that when they wrote the Constitution.

There were no IDs in 1788.

 

[emergentmd]

Have you even looked at how other countries are doing this?

Australia once you're fully vaccinated you get a QR code that's unique to you. Businesses download a QR reader for cell phones and scan your QR code. It would add maybe 10 seconds of effort.

Football stadiums have security check points you have to pass through, add a QR scanner for when you go through the metal detector.

Seriously, this would take some effort but its no anything close to impossible.

So you are comparing Australia with a population that is a fraction of the US and a database that is more robust?

Again, someone point to me a reliable database to check if I’m vaccinated. I’m still waiting to see something remotely reliable in the US.

 

[GeneralVeers]

So you are comparing Australia with a population that is a fraction of the US and a database that is more robust?

Again, someone point to me a reliable database to check if I’m vaccinated. I’m still waiting to see something remotely reliable in the US.

I just can't fathom why anyone would want to live in his world where you have to show a government-issued QR code to enter any business.....

 

[southerndoc]

The data clearly shows that vaccination, while it may not prevent infection, overwhelmingly reduces hospitalizations and deaths.