Hospital vaccine mandate?

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GeneralVeers said:
I just can't fathom why anyone would want to live in his world where you have to show a government-issued QR code to enter any business.....
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That's a different conversation entirely (one that has merit, for what its worth).
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emergentmd said:
So you are comparing Australia with a population that is a fraction of the US and a database that is more robust?

Again, someone point to me a reliable database to check if I’m vaccinated. I’m still waiting to see something remotely reliable in the US.
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Well my state's health department has a good one for anyone vaccinated within the state. I'm told other states have this as well.

I'm guessing the CDC has a solid one as well, what with the VSafe texts we all get.
 
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I think all states have a vaccine database at the state level. Many it’s got a good computer system attached. It’s pretty easy for a hcp to check a patients in state record. Whether that can be tied to something easily accessible for expanded use like this is going to vary. It should be opt in for the expanded use.
 
Again no good examples of reliable database.

So if I got vax in Texas and go to another state, how am I verified?
 
You are “guessing” the cdc has one. Can I have a link to verify my status? Aoy of speculation and more credit than I wild give any gov agency.

I just want one link to check status in Texas. Just one
 
emergentmd said:
You are “guessing” the cdc has one. Can I have a link to verify my status? Aoy of speculation and more credit than I wild give any gov agency.

I just want one link to check status in Texas. Just one
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I mean sure, its possible the CDC sent out all those VSafe text messages and didn't keep a record of who each phone number belonged to and which vaccine they received. Its also possible that they are getting vaccine data from each individual state and not keeping records of it. That just seems to me very unlikely.

I can't speak to Texas, but here in SC COVID vaccines go into the pre-existing state vaccination database. I have no idea how the general public would go about accessing it but as a physician I have an account that I can go and look up anyone who has received a vaccine in SC going back over 20 years.
 
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My dog chewed up my driver's license and I went to get a new one with the remains. One can't do anything without a picture id these days. In 1788 they still used barter, gold, and silver to pay for goods and services.
 
d2305 said:
There were no IDs in 1788.
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Your point? The "IDs will solve everything (despite no significant evidence of voter fraud that would be prevented by IDs and the historical uses of IDs and other barriers to prevent the undesirables from voting) crowd" also tends to be the crowd that believes in original intent. Insert discussion on gun control and muskets vs semi-autos (or we can go fully into this, and decry bans on fully automatic rifles).
 
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d2305 said:
My dog chewed up my driver's license and I went to get a new one with the remains. One can't do anything without a picture id these days. In 1788 they still used barter, gold, and silver to pay for goods and services.
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Outside of flying and checking into a hotel room, I'm trying to remember the last time I had to show ID. Certainly not an everyday occurrence... and certainly not for something considered a right. Imagine if you had to show ID every time you went to church... just to make sure that you could comply with the 1st Amendment.

More importantly, where are you shopping that routinely requires you to show ID that isn't a club store?
 
Siggy said:
Outside of flying and checking into a hotel room, I'm trying to remember the last time I had to show ID. Certainly not an everyday occurrence... and certainly not for something considered a right. Imagine if you had to show ID every time you went to church... just to make sure that you could comply with the 1st Amendment.

More importantly, where are you shopping that routinely requires you to show ID that isn't a club store?
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For some reason, this to me reads as overly aggressive and overly snarky. But, that might be just my own fault (in fact, likely). Nonetheless, I don't get proofed anymore when I buy beer, but that's because I'm an old man. Maybe that's ageism, but, I ain't sayin' no to a discount!
 
Apollyon said:
For some reason, this to me reads as overly aggressive and overly snarky. But, that might be just my own fault (in fact, likely). Nonetheless, I don't get proofed anymore when I buy beer, but that's because I'm an old man. Maybe that's ageism, but, I ain't sayin' no to a discount!
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I got to buy alcohol, Guy checks my ID eventhough I am 50
I went to buy spray paint, guy checked my ID

I can't imagine living in a world where I have to wear a covid badge throughout the day and getting stopped before I enter any place of business. Just ridiculous.
 
Siggy said:
Outside of flying and checking into a hotel room, I'm trying to remember the last time I had to show ID. Certainly not an everyday occurrence... and certainly not for something considered a right. Imagine if you had to show ID every time you went to church... just to make sure that you could comply with the 1st Amendment.

More importantly, where are you shopping that routinely requires you to show ID that isn't a club store?
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Agree completely. We haven't had to show ID to engage in 90% of commerce and daily activities so why should we start now?
 
GeneralVeers said:
Texas just banned all vaccine mandates "by any entity". I wonder how Texas hospitals will deal with this.
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I love how pre-COVID the GOP was all about private businesses setting whatever rules they wanted (a stance I happen to agree with), but now they are against that idea.

Oh, and it goes against decades of other vaccine mandates that no one cared about.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
Agree completely. We haven't had to show ID to engage in 90% of commerce and daily activities so why should we start now?
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...because the Republicans lost an election and are trying to blame anyone but themselves.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I love how pre-COVID the GOP was all about private businesses setting whatever rules they wanted (a stance I happen to agree with), but now they are against that idea.

Oh, and it goes against decades of other vaccine mandates that no one cared about.
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It's so sad. Vaccines are one of the top 5 most important medical advances ever in the history of mankind.
 
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thegenius said:
It's so sad. Vaccines are one of the top 5 most important medical advances ever in the history of mankind.
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Top 5 (according to our patients)

1. Dilaudid.
2. Work notes.
3. "The ER is free".
4. Press-Ganey
5. Turkey sammiches.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
Texas just banned all vaccine mandates "by any entity". I wonder how Texas hospitals will deal with this.
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That’s an interesting case of Abbott biting one of the hands that feeds him. Wouldn’t be surprised if a carve out for hospitals occurs.
 
Arcan57 said:
That’s an interesting case of Abbott biting one of the hands that feeds him. Wouldn’t be surprised if a carve out for hospitals occurs.
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I think this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Abbott is about to find out what the ‘supremacy clause’ is.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I love how pre-COVID the GOP was all about private businesses setting whatever rules they wanted (a stance I happen to agree with), but now they are against that idea.

Oh, and it goes against decades of other vaccine mandates that no one cared about.
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This works in reverse too. Dems tout worker's rights and ability to set their own work environment (See Amazon) and now they are anti workers promoting mass worker firings.

Interesting how both parties can flip flop but this is par for the course with both parties b/c all they care about is votes, raking in money, and staying in power.

Americans are too dumb to see that these career politicians are all the same. All they care about is power, getting votes, and legacy. Most care very little about most Americans and only aligns with what American's really need when it helps with more votes.
 
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bravotwozero said:
I think this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Abbott is about to find out what the ‘supremacy clause’ is.
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It will be interesting for sure. In the short term it's hard to argue supremacy, as despite a Federal executive order no OSHA rule yet exists. Currently there is no national mandate until the rule is written.
It also remains to be seen if courts agree that OSHA supercedes States' rights in this case. It's heading to the Supreme Court for sure.

In the short term at least a win for workers rights and medical freedom.
 
GeneralVeers said:
It will be interesting for sure. In the short term it's hard to argue supremacy, as despite a Federal executive order no OSHA rule yet exists. Currently there is no national mandate until the rule is written.
It also remains to be seen if courts agree that OSHA supercedes States' rights in this case. It's heading to the Supreme Court for sure.

In the short term at least a win for workers rights and medical freedom.
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A win that a private business can't conduct private business in the way that they would like. What kind of republican are you?

Legally i agree seems quite up in the air. Presidential executive order vs. Governor executive order. Both orders are of uncertain legality. Neither is law that is passed by the state or congress. You are right that the OSHA rules don't exist yet, but any healthcare facility that wants money from medicare has to have a mandate. I guess no more medicare for people in Texas? That will cause quite the uproar.
 
DoctwoB said:
A win that a private business can't conduct private business in the way that they would like. What kind of republican are you?

Legally i agree seems quite up in the air. Presidential executive order vs. Governor executive order. Both orders are of uncertain legality. Neither is law that is passed by the state or congress. You are right that the OSHA rules don't exist yet, but any healthcare facility that wants money from medicare has to have a mandate. I guess no more medicare for people in Texas? That will cause quite the uproar.
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I'm anti-discrimination. Discriminating based on health status is illegal.
 
GeneralVeers said:
I'm anti-discrimination. Discriminating based on health status is illegal.
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You're grasping at Hannity provided-straws. Whether or not you are vaccinated is not any more health status then whether or not you are 21 or older or not. Or whether you are clothed or not (which establishments also discriminate against in case that wasn't clear). It is a state of being.
 
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DoctwoB said:
You're grasping at Hannity provided-straws. Whether or not you are vaccinated is not any more health status then whether or not you are 21 or older or not. Or whether you are clothed or not (which establishments also discriminate against in case that wasn't clear). It is a state of being.
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Wearing clothing, and having a vaccine are not the same thing. Neither is being 21 to consume alcohol and having a vaccine. You are making equivalencies that don't exist.

Should a restaurant demand a fingerstick glucose on a diabetic patient to make sure they are "controlled" before allowing them to stuff their face at a buffet? How about proof of a recent hemoglobin A1C?
 
GeneralVeers said:
Wearing clothing, and having a vaccine are not the same thing. Neither is being 21 to consume alcohol and having a vaccine. You are making equivalencies that don't exist.

Should a restaurant demand a fingerstick glucose on a diabetic patient to make sure they are "controlled" before allowing them to stuff their face at a buffet? How about proof of a recent hemoglobin A1C?
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I feel like I'm having to say this way too frequently for a forum full of physicians: diabetes isn't contagious.

The better question is why did no one care about all the other vaccine mandates that we had prior to COVID.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I feel like I'm having to say this way too frequently for a forum full of physicians: diabetes isn't contagious.

The better question is why did no one care about all the other vaccine mandates that we had prior to COVID.
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We've already established through EVIDENCE that the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission. This one FACT completely negates any logical reason to have a vaccine mandate, at least one in which you are barring people freedom of movement or firing them. I've never heard of an Influenza vaccine mandate to go to a restaurant. Yes I understand it was required in schools previously. That's not the same thing.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
I'm anti-discrimination. Discriminating based on health status is illegal.
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Like when you said "I'm against Immigration if people don't learn English, don't adopt American culture, and are parasitic in nature"?
 
WilcoWorld said:
Like when you said "I'm against Immigration if people don't learn English, don't adopt American culture, and are parasitic in nature"?
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That's not discrimination, it's common sense. But once again, a false equivalency. I'd be against restaurants refusing service to immigrants, regardless if they speak the language, or have adopted American culture.
 
GeneralVeers said:
We've already established through EVIDENCE that the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission.
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Not 100%, but It does reduce it by several orders of magnitude, by reducing the likelihood that a vaccinated person gets it, 5-10 fold, and lowering the overall viral load from a vaccinated person even if they can transmit it.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
We've already established through EVIDENCE that the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission. This one FACT completely negates any logical reason to have a vaccine mandate, at least one in which you are barring people freedom of movement or firing them. I've never heard of an Influenza vaccine mandate to go to a restaurant. Yes I understand it was required in schools previously. That's not the same thing.
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No we haven't.

"Overall, the likelihood of household transmission was approximately 40 to 50% lower in households of index patients who had been vaccinated 21 days or more before testing positive than in households of unvaccinated index patients"

Then you add in the fact that vaccinated people are much less likely to become infected then unvaccinated, and thus incapable of transmission (anywhere from 30-95% reduction depending on vaccine used, prevalence of delta, timing of vaccine, and presence of booster). Also I fail to understand why eating in a restaurant is different then attending school. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, that the latter is much more important then the former.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
We've already established through EVIDENCE that the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission. This one FACT completely negates any logical reason to have a vaccine mandate, at least one in which you are barring people freedom of movement or firing them. I've never heard of an Influenza vaccine mandate to go to a restaurant. Yes I understand it was required in schools previously. That's not the same thing.
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It reduces transmission rates. The degree to which it does so is still up for debate but to say it doesn't prevent transmission at all is false.

I bet prior to COVID had a business wanted to have an influenza vaccine mandate the GOP would have been on board with it. In fact we know that because hospitals have done that with no major political pushback. Business rights and all. Its only because its COVID that now vaccine mandates are bad from their viewpoint.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
We've already established through EVIDENCE that the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission. This one FACT completely negates any logical reason to have a vaccine mandate, at least one in which you are barring people freedom of movement or firing them. I've never heard of an Influenza vaccine mandate to go to a restaurant. Yes I understand it was required in schools previously. That's not the same thing.
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It absolutely decreases transmission.

Vaccinated are much less likely to become infected in the first place.

Vaccinated are infectious for shorter duration.

www.minnpost.com

What’s wrong with the claim that vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 just as readily as the unvaccinated - MinnPost

People looking to cast doubt on the vaccines’ efficacy often cite a CDC study leaked by the New York Times saying viral loads were similar for vaccinated and unvaccinated people. But the study has serious limitations, and in any case doesn’t give the full picture on transmission.
www.minnpost.com www.minnpost.com
 
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DoctwoB said:
No we haven't.

"Overall, the likelihood of household transmission was approximately 40 to 50% lower in households of index patients who had been vaccinated 21 days or more before testing positive than in households of unvaccinated index patients"

Then you add in the fact that vaccinated people are much less likely to become infected then unvaccinated, and thus incapable of transmission (anywhere from 30-95% reduction depending on vaccine used, prevalence of delta, timing of vaccine, and presence of booster). Also I fail to understand why eating in a restaurant is different then attending school. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, that the latter is much more important then the former.
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Data cited is pre-delta. You have to be logically consistent and have your ish down 100%, or else the trumpadoodles will tear your arguments apart (most are dumb as fck but some are surprisingly sharp).

I agree that vaccination most likely reduces transmission markedly (bear week notwithstanding). However it likely does not do so completely and there isn't good data published, as far as I know. It hurts, but I have to side with Veers on this one (at least regarding transmission). I ultimately don't care if the guy sitting next to me has covid.
 
GeneralVeers, I side with you 100 percent. It is so incredibly stupid to mandate a vaccine, especially when the whole purpose of mandating a vaccine is to “protect others” - news flash, IT DOESN’T. So let the people who want to get vaccinated get vaccinated, and they are substantially protected against COVID deaths / hospitalization. Let the people who don’t want to get vaccinated do their thing. Educate them about the vaccine, even incentivize them, whatever, but let it be their choice. Sickening that anyone here thinks it’s actually okay to require someone to show a vaccine card before participating in society when the vaccine card holder and the fake vaccine card holder can BOTH get everyone sick.
 
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ERCAT said:
GeneralVeers, I side with you 100 percent. It is so incredibly stupid to mandate a vaccine, especially when the whole purpose of mandating a vaccine is to “protect others” - news flash, IT DOESN’T. So let the people who want to get vaccinated get vaccinated, and they are substantially protected against COVID deaths / hospitalization. Let the people who don’t want to get vaccinated do their thing. Educate them about the vaccine, even incentivize them, whatever, but let it be their choice. Sickening that anyone here thinks it’s actually okay to require someone to show a vaccine card before participating in society when the vaccine card holder and the fake vaccine card holder can BOTH get everyone sick.
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It does protect others. See above. Sheesh.
 
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ERCAT said:
GeneralVeers, I side with you 100 percent. It is so incredibly stupid to mandate a vaccine, especially when the whole purpose of mandating a vaccine is to “protect others” - news flash, IT DOESN’T. So let the people who want to get vaccinated get vaccinated, and they are substantially protected against COVID deaths / hospitalization. Let the people who don’t want to get vaccinated do their thing. Educate them about the vaccine, even incentivize them, whatever, but let it be their choice. Sickening that anyone here thinks it’s actually okay to require someone to show a vaccine card before participating in society when the vaccine card holder and the fake vaccine card holder can BOTH get everyone sick.
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"Sickening" really? Hyperbolic much? ALL of us in the ED have seen sickening s#it that makes us cry. Cool it with your statements. They sound histrionic.
 
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Apollyon said:
"Sickening" really? Hyperbolic much? ALL of us in the ED have seen sickening s#it that makes us cry. Cool it with your statements. They sound histrionic.
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I know. "incredibly stupid" and "sickening"
incredibly stupid is purposely sticking a toothpick directly into your eyeball.
sickening is licking raw homeless feet we see in the ER.

not apt adjectives for getting a vaccine.

this thread is becoming worthless.
 
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