End of Grade Replacement?

[0dee]

If you think a school can't find 150 people out of 5-6k with an average GPA of 3.5-3.6, you're crazy. I don't see stats dropping at all.

Lower tier schools and newer ones like BCOM had accepted a lot of applicants with GPAs in the 3.1-3.3 range (that is with grade replacement). Students who already have 3.5 or higher will opt out to go to the more established schools rather than newer ones. Ya see where this is going?

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[psu228]

If you think a school can't find 150 people out of 5-6k with an average GPA of 3.5-3.6, you're crazy. I don't see stats dropping at all.

You're right that they could hand pick 150 people with GPAs in that range and just accept them. But the reality is that GPA is far from the only thing adcoms will consider, and schools can't just bank on applicants in this range matriculating for them. A lot of these people go to MD schools or the "old" DO programs. A lot of DO schools will consider

Ultimately this is a moot point because we don't have data on how many current DO students used grade replacement or how much a school's average GPA would drop if you took grade replacement away from their current students. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. You won't see individual DO school's average GPAs plummet, but I also think that grade replacement will still be looked upon favorably by adcoms as it still demonstrates the commitment to this path and to mastering this material.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Lower tier schools and newer ones like BCOM had accepted a lot of applicants with GPAs in the 3.1-3.3 range (that is with grade replacement). Students who already have 3.5 or higher will opt out to go to the more established schools rather than newer ones. Ya see where this is going?

That same trend is seen now where the established schools have higher average stats. This will not change without grade replacement.

 

[Dr.Burns]

If you think a school can't find 150 people out of 5-6k with an average GPA of 3.5-3.6, you're crazy. I don't see stats dropping at all.

The majority of applicants have retaken a class at most. Simple mathematics tells you it'll definitely dip. Maybe not significantly but numbers don't lie. It will be lower.

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[yanks26dmb]

Lower tier schools and newer ones like BCOM had accepted a lot of applicants with GPAs in the 3.1-3.3 range (that is with grade replacement). Students who already have 3.5 or higher will opt out to go to the more established schools rather than newer ones. Ya see where this is going?

As someone else mentioned, the trends will remain. The lower tier schools aren't going to fall to the sub 3.0 range...and the higher tier schools aren't going to drop either. They'll both maintain their current standards.

 

[yanks26dmb]

The majority of applicants have retaken a class at most. Simple mathematics tells you it'll definitely dip. Maybe not significantly but numbers don't lie. It will be lower.

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Numbers rise every year at most schools. You're assuming the improvement of the applicant pool will not outpace the potential GPA decrease due to loss of grade replacement.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Alright, I've procrastinated studying long enough and have probably commented more in the past hour than I have in the past year combined.

Best of luck to you all, I hope things work out for the best one way or another. If they do, you'll look back and realize this worrying was for nothing. And if not, there's always pod.

 

[AlteredScale]

The majority of applicants have retaken a class at most. Simple mathematics tells you it'll definitely dip. Maybe not significantly but numbers don't lie. It will be lower.

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Is there data for this that the majority of applicants have retaken a class?


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[Dr.Burns]

Numbers rise every year at most schools. You're assuming the improvement of the applicant pool will not outpace the potential GPA decrease due to loss of grade replacement.

And you're assuming the improvement of the applicant pool WILL outpace the gpa decrease. Majority of DO applicants apply bc they have lower stats than MD applicants. Don't give me this osteopathic philosophy BS. it's just fact. And with that fact comes another fact, lower stats= reinvention and retakes along the way. There isn't going to be a surge of applicants with 3.8+ GPA'S to maintain the current matriculation GPA. The # of applicants with retakes simply outweigh the applicants with no retakes.

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[psu228]

If anything, I think the percent increase in GPAs from 2016 to 2017 will be less than say 2015 to 2016. but this still is significant.

 

[yanks26dmb]

And you're assuming the improvement of the applicant pool WILL outpace the gpa decrease. Majority of DO applicants apply bc they have lower stats than MD applicants. Don't give me this osteopathic philosophy BS. it's just fact. And with that fact comes another fact, lower stats= reinvention and retakes along the way. There isn't going to be a surge of applicants with 3.8+ GPA'S to maintain the current matriculation GPA. The # of applicants with retakes simply outweigh the applicants with no retakes.

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Yes, I am making that assumption.

 

[Dr.Burns]

Is there data for this that the majority of applicants have retaken a class?


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Ask 10 people. 7 will have retaken one class.

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[0dee]

As someone else mentioned, the trends will remain. The lower tier schools aren't going to fall to the sub 3.0 range...and the higher tier schools aren't going to drop either. They'll both maintain their current standards.

After all, DO schools are still US medical schools so to think that their average entering class will have a GPA below 3.3 is not going to happen. I was just implying that the newer schools will still accept applicants in the 3.0 - 3.3 range regardless of this policy change.

 

[AlteredScale]

Ask 10 people. 7 will have retaken one class.

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Would have much rather preferred statistical data showing that the majority to DO applicants have retake a class. I would guess its more like half and half as supposed to the majority.


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[Dr.Burns]

Just sign a petition and boycott like the good old days. Aacomas is a business at the end of the day and without happy customers they'll be forced to act . I do understand the policy and I'm all for it but the timing of it all is completely unacceptable.

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[Dr.Burns]

Would have much rather preferred statistical data showing that the majority to DO applicants have retake a class. I would guess its more like half and half as supposed to the majority.


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It's how mass data is collected

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[AlteredScale]

It's how mass data is collected

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Mass data? I'm asking for a paper or some sort of published data that backs your statement that of 10 do applicants,7 have retaken at least one class.


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[Dr.Burns]

Mass data? I'm asking for a paper or some sort of published data that backs your statement that of 10 do applicants,7 have retaken at least one class.


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Haha there is absolutely no possible way to get that info. You're just gonna have to trust me- or not. Your preference

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[bigindian4891]

Just sign a petition and boycott like the good old days. Aacomas is a business at the end of the day and without happy customers they'll be forced to act . I do understand the policy and I'm all for it but the timing of it all is completely unacceptable.

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Happy customers? We're not buying a TV, we are trying to become a physician.

 

[Dr.Burns]

Happy customers? We're not buying a TV, we are trying to become a physician.

Aacomas is an app service. They're a company. Companies make money by selling services. Cmon you're better than that.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

The reason is because of the higher standards clinical training and research of LCME schools. Changing the GPA requirements doesn't do anything to make us on par with our MD counter parts.

This. And to further this if anyone thinks that the residency bias will change in the slightest they are up in the night. The discrimination exists because of the letters D.O. You could give every DO school rotations and research at MGH and BWH and they would still be discriminated against in the match. As much as people like to think otherwise the letters do actually matter, if they didn't then students who go to the state DO schools that have known teaching hospitals would have match lists similar to state MD schools.

For the record, I do think having different admissions practices is a little silly, I also think AACOMAS should have given at least 2 years notice.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

So your speaking about a subject that you have no personal experience with other than you are really into social science? Excuse me for saying this but I'm going to guess those that you're arguing with aren't going to take your opinion too seriously.

If they're ignorant, yes.

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[SurgDoc95]

If they're ignorant, yes.

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Or maybe your theoretical knowledge of a situation you have zero experience with will be ignored by those who have lived with and overcome disadvantaged backgrounds? Just a thought.

 

[LutGholein]

The schools that run SMPs will make out like bandits, I expect.

Bingo. Follow the $$$$

For years now we've been seeing the age of matriculants(MD/DO) increase and it's becoming more and more common to see a sizable chunk of your med school class have an MBS(Master of Biomedical Sciences) or some other SMP.

What will occur to avg matriculant GPA? Most of the DOs have their stats posted online so either we see a dip(<3.5~3.4) or they have enough borderline MD/DO applicants fill the void to make sure they maintain this avg accepted GPA.

 

[Goro]

My belief is that we'll see a dip in median GPAs. I don't think DO schools can afford to lose all the applicant who do grade replacement, assuming those people don't apply.

Bingo. Follow the $$$$

For years now we've been seeing the age of matriculants(MD/DO) increase and it's becoming more and more common to see a sizable chunk of your med school class have an MBS(Master of Biomedical Sciences) or some other SMP.

What will occur to avg matriculant GPA? Most of the DOs have their stats posted online so either we see a dip(<3.5~3.4) or they have enough borderline MD/DO applicants fill the void to make sure they maintain this avg accepted GPA.

 

[eggsntoast]

They are but I think she mistyped it.


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No, they are no longer counting both grades as of this cycle. No typo.

 

[HMtoDO]

No, they are no longer counting both grades as of this cycle. No typo.

Per the notice both grades will be counted and averaged as opposed to the first attempt having no impact on GPA calculations


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[eggsntoast]

Sorry! I meant they ARE counting both grades! Thanks for catching that!

 

[LutGholein]

The lack of denial from the official sources makes it pretty obvious it's true, no?

Someone above called this despicable, it's a shame SDN filters the words you need to really describe this. What the hell are they thinking? Why would they do this so last minute? Why let hundreds or thousands of people go uninformed about the actual value of their retakes/postbacc work? There are going to be more than a handful of people permanently locked out by this too, that are having the only reasonable means of overcoming a bunch of early failing grades taken away. And instead of giving a year of warning so they could make an attempt now with halfway repaired grades, it will be a suddenly slammed door. No career as a physician for you.

It looks to me like DO schools no longer want to be the accessible option to premeds who were late to figure out their interest in medicine, and would instead like to attach themselves to the lower end of the MD school range, accepting some lower numbers for a few years if it means they can say, "look we're just like them now!" I bet the residency merger is the other half of the equation. Maybe our generation is going to see the most established DO schools becoming pretty much interchangeable with the more accessible (non-mission) MD schools.

I've been feeling that this is the step. I mean they want to have "apples to apples". I expect the established MSUCOM, KCUMB, PCOM, AZCOM and the rest of the established DO schools to pivot into this transitional phase. What separates a lot these schools from some of your MD state schools, your Rosalind Franklin, Loyola Stritch, TCMC, Albany, Western Michigan and so on? Partly it is circumstance. The overlap is there. What definitively separated these schools however was the way in which grades are calculated(i.e grade replacement) and OMM.

Now only one defining aspect separates a lot of these schools--OMM. If there is a transition/policy change where OMM becomes an optional track--like how many MD/DO schools have a special military track, rural track, primary care--why can't DO schools begin offering a OMM track? I think this merger and policy change is just the beginning.

My belief is that we'll see a dip in median GPAs. I don't think DO schools can afford to lose all the applicant who do grade replacement, assuming those people don't apply.

@Goro assuming the GPA do take a dip and then fluctuate back after a few years-- do you think an LCME/COCA merger is possible? Or is the school-funded research/clinical 3rd/4th year access issue too big a hurdle to address?

 

[IslandStyle808]

I've been feeling that this is the step. I mean they want to have "apples to apples". I expect the established MSUCOM, KCUMB, PCOM, AZCOM and the rest of the established DO schools to pivot into this transitional phase. What separates a lot these schools from some of your MD state schools, your Rosalind Franklin, Loyola Stritch, TCMC, Albany, Western Michigan and so on? Partly it is circumstance. The overlap is there. What definitively separated these schools however was the way in which grades are calculated(i.e grade replacement) and OMM.

Now only one defining aspect separates a lot of these schools--OMM. If there is a transition/policy change where OMM becomes an optional track--like how many MD/DO schools have a special military track, rural track, primary care--why can't DO schools begin offering a OMM track? I think this merger and policy change is just the beginning.



@Goro assuming the GPA do take a dip and then fluctuate back after a few years-- do you think an LCME/COCA merger is possible? Or is the school-funded research/clinical 3rd/4th year access issue to big a hurdle to address?

No, what makes the DO schools different from the MD schools in your list is the standards they abide by. LCME standards are different from COCA. The is the real definitive feature, not grade replacement or OMM. You equalizes these standards in basic science, clinical science, and research then you will see true parity.

 

[LutGholein]

If this were to happen would the students who graduate from those schools a few years before they changed to MD still be DOs or would they be awarded an MD degree?

Hypothetically of course

It wouldn't be the first time this happened. Norman Gevitz brought this up in his book the DOs--- UC Irvine Medical School was a DO school originally-- it eventually became an MD school and those who had received a DO from the institution payed a small fee to get a new diploma to reflect the school's MD status. I'm friends with an old PM&R doc who was one of the last few to graduate from UCI med with a DO and he just payed the fee and exchanged his diploma for the new one. It's not far-fetched.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Bingo. Follow the $$$$

For years now we've been seeing the age of matriculants(MD/DO) increase and it's becoming more and more common to see a sizable chunk of your med school class have an MBS(Master of Biomedical Sciences) or some other SMP.

What will occur to avg matriculant GPA? Most of the DOs have their stats posted online so either we see a dip(<3.5~3.4) or they have enough borderline MD/DO applicants fill the void to make sure they maintain this avg accepted GPA.

They are going to make a killing with this. It weeds out the weak ones. It also forces students to do everything twice so boards increase in strength.

I predict nothing happens to the averages. These are not idiots. They've probably run models already. Probably going to affect very few applicants.

 

[LutGholein]

No, what makes the DO schools different from the MD schools in your list is the standards they abide by. LCME standards are different from COCA. The is the real definitive feature, not grade replacement or OMM. You equalizes these standards in basic science, clinical science, and research then you will see true parity.

I respectfully agree, which is why I noted in the last part of my post that there is the research/clinical access gap that needs to be rectified before we even consider such a merger. But these changes give me the impression that they are trying to at least pivot.

edit: I also agree it's very deplorable that this policy change took place without ample forewarning to those in the process of applying--it looks like they are passing the buck and kinda expecting that it works in their favor.

 

[musgrove0314]

There is no indication of this on the AACOMAS website, however.

Didn't look through all pages to see if this was already posted, if not, here ya go.

http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/applying/notice-of-repeat-coursework-policy-change



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[starspells]

http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/applying/notice-of-repeat-coursework-policy-change


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"In an effort to increase transparency...." what a sack of s***

 

[musgrove0314]

/r/premed on Reddit is trying to put together some kind of a petition. Check it out


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[LutGholein]

Agreed, it's like they're spraying Fabreeze when it's really the carpet that needs to be changed.

Idk why I found myself laughing at this much longer than I should of

 

[bobtheweazel]

While this is absolutely dreadful, I can't say I'm surprised. When I applied last year, AACOMAS made it extremely difficult to do grade replacement. I had the suspicion that this would happen over the next couple years. Im surprised they are implementing it now however, very soon.

Grade replacement is the only reason my app was considered in the first place for DO school. I went from a 3.0 science GPA to a 3.4 just by replacing all the Cs on my transcript with As. Its the only reason I was interviewed last year.

Looks like a lot of people are going to get left behind. SMPs for DO schools might be the way to go. Either that or go to podiatry school. Though the caliber of people I interviewed with at Pod school seems to have taken a great uptick from years past. It used to be anyone with a 3.0+ and 490+ (18 MCAT) could get in. The people in my group all had 3.3+ and 495+. I see Pod school going the way of DO school stat-wise in the next 7-10 years.

Thats ok, the smart ones will choose dentistry in the end.

Dental school admissions are more competitive than MD school, so if someone can't make it into DO school, dental won't be an option for them either.

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

Dental school admissions are more competitive than MD school, so if someone can't make it into DO school, dental won't be an option for them either.

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Depends where you go. My COM has a dental school and their average GPA is about 0.35 below DO and they interview more people per seat.

 

[LutGholein]

Dental school admissions are more competitive than MD school

 

[779663]

This wouldn't surprise me actually. Being a dentist is a dope career if you're more concerned about a job that pays away too much for work that is relatively easier than being a doctor. I bet it gets very competitive.

 

[Geo16]

This wouldn't surprise me actually. Being a dentist is a dope career if you're more concerned about a job that pays away too much for work that is relatively easier than being a doctor. I bet it gets very competitive.

Let's not bash other careers here. Por favor, we are all medical family C:

 

[kfox926]

Does this mean while I'm still an undergraduate I can't retake classes that I got a C in or does that mean once I've already submitted an app, I can't retake classes and have AACOMAS replace the grade?


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[Marrowist]

It means for AACOMAS purposes, any repeated courses will be averaged with the previous grade. Forever.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

It wouldn't be the first time this happened. Norman Gevitz brought this up in his book the DOs--- UC Irvine Medical School was a DO school originally-- it eventually became an MD school and those who had received a DO from the institution payed a small fee to get a new diploma to reflect the school's MD status. I'm friends with an old PM&R doc who was one of the last few to graduate from UCI med with a DO and he just payed the fee and exchanged his diploma for the new one. It's not far-fetched.

I wouldn't count on this happening again, and I think @Goro would agree, as there are too many proud people at the top.

To the person you had originally replied to, although I am not a DO student, be proud of your degree. If you are betting on a switch, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. If you don't want a DO degree, life is very simple: don't go to DO school. The last thing any profession needs is more people who have the delusion that they don't sit at the cool kids table and live the rest of their lives as self-hating individuals. No one is forcing your hand.

 

[kfox926]

It means for AACOMAS purposes, any repeated courses will be averaged with the previous grade. Forever.

So, my university allows a retake to wipe out a previous grade and replace it with the new one during undergrad. So AACOMAS wouldn't see the grade switch from my school in this case I believe??


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[Marrowist]

So, my university allows a retake to wipe out a previous grade and replace it with the new one during undergrad. So AACOMAS wouldn't see the grade switch from my school in this case I believe??


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My OPINION is that they would see any attempted coursework. However, you should definitely discuss this with your academic advisor and get clarity from AACOMAS on this issue.

 

[kfox926]

My OPINION is that they would see any attempted coursework. However, you should definitely discuss this with your academic advisor and get clarity from AACOMAS on this issue.

Thank you, I definitely will. I haven't retaken anything yet but I surely don't wanna waste my time if it won't help.


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[efle]

I suppose one thing has been cleared up by their lame blurb about why they're changing policy -

The overall applicant pool is going to see a negligible GPA change from this, only 0.01-0.03 for both sGPA and cGPA. The yearly numbers creep is even bigger than that. This is not going to lower the GPA for DO schools, not even for this transition year. Odds getting slashed for the minority relying on replacement will probably not even be a blip in the overall trends, unless individual admissions offices try to put in the massive labor to repeat AACOMAS's job internally.

 

[Major]

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