End of Grade Replacement?

[0dee]

The only people that can benefit from this change of policy are borderline MD applicants, and people that slightly utilized grade replacement. The folks that were applying with 3.3 - 3.5 sGPA might be down to below 3.0 which is the cutoff for most schools. So the emphasis on a good MCAT score (508+) is even more crucial for this upcoming cycle.

I don't see this change helping the reputation of DOs in the next 5-7 years. So current medical students who are chanting for this will not even be affected by it in any positive way. The PDs are still the same, the bias still exists, and MD will continue to be the superior degree with better clinical education, better residency opportunities and such.

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[sammiesings]

You're 100% spot on there. Those that can't score IMO > 498 after several retakes are going to have an hard time come COMLEX/Step boards. Then again what do I know since I haven't even started med school yet lol

Haha. Well, I think its a fairly reasonable thing to say no matter where you are in the process.

Frankly, it just keeps circling back around to the fact that its true that not everyone can be a physician. And those who come from a low GPA background, like myself, need to be willing to prove that you a) deserve it and b) can handle it.

I am right there with ya'll about the auto-screens and how much it sucked that 1/2 the schools I applied to probably auto-screened me without my ever knowing it. However, I also think even if it sucked, its fair.

Medicine is inherently difficult and there need to be standards we hold our future physicians to because that is what is fair to patients. Having to score above the 45th percentile on the MCAT is a very reasonable standard.

 

[Zifish]

Just because their cherry-picked "statistically significant" sample of applicants only saw a small increase in GPA means absolutely nothing. They're using that bogus statistic to justify an unethically sudden change to a long established policy.

My observation is that the DOE is upset with COCA and if they pulled their accreditation powers, it would eliminate Coca entirely as things merge towards the MD accrediting side. It's obvious by their December meeting that the Coca is scrambling to save their behinds, and had to examine areas where DO standards were lower. They've delayed giving pre-accreditation to the new schools pending their April meeting, and sh.t rolls downhill so I bet that they imposed the change to aacomas. Furthermore, our country is in trillions of student loan debt that we're carrying that burden as a nation. The DOE could have forced aacom to end the replacement allowance since it encourages tens of thousands of students to continue accepting student loans and grants to elevate their gpa's via retaking courses.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Just because their cherry-picked "statistically significant" sample of applicants only saw a small increase in GPA means absolutely nothing. They're using that bogus statistic to justify an unethically sudden change to a long established policy.

My observation is that the DOE is upset with COCA and if they pulled their accreditation powers, it would eliminate Coca entirely as things merge towards the MD accrediting side. It's obvious by their December meeting that the Coca is scrambling to save their behinds, and had to examine areas where DO standards were lower. They've delayed giving pre-accreditation to the new schools pending their April meeting, and sh.t rolls downhill so I bet that they imposed the change to aacomas. Furthermore, our country is in trillions of student loan debt that we're carrying that burden as a nation. The DOE could have forced aacom to end the replacement allowance since it encourages tens of thousands of students to continue accepting student loans and grants to elevate their gpa's via retaking courses.

Hmm very interesting notion. I'd be curious to see if this had any validity?

 

[Zifish]

Hmm very interesting notion. I'd be curious to see if this had any validity?

I think if you look at all of the pieces, I'd say it's hard to ignore that this is what's going on. Coca charges 35k to proposed DO schools to begin the accreditation process. Why would they reject this money and enforce higher standards unless the USDE (I said DOE earlier as in dept of edu instead of USDE) stepped in and cracked down. And as we all saw with the Wells Fargo debacle when the government stepped in, changes were made at the lowest level in hopes it would show their good faith for improvement. Coca influencing aacomas to end grade replacement and putting those new schools on hold (of course after accepting their 35k) is an easy way for them to scurry back to USDE and say "look we're making changes don't cut our powers!"

Edit: here's the notes for their December meeting, saying point blank that they had to approach things differently due to a USDE crackdown. I bet that a round table of deans and officials just sat around and thought of the easiest ways to save their behinds, since in reality the DO/MD debate ends in real life practice, this has nothing to do with them actually caring about the quality of applicant since it's been that quality for decades, and those who got in with replacement are still taking and passing the boards just like everyone else! This is about saving their behinds from the USDE stepping in and pulling their ability to be an accrediting body and shuttling the accreditation powers to LCME. http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...-to-coca-standards-forum-attendees-dec-16.pdf

 

[IdealNFP]

I just want to block this 2-3 years solely to let the current crop work under the old policy. Besides, I need a hobby

Not all heroes wear capes.

 

[edgerock24]

No you are looking at this in the same light as the students who sued the law schools. In that case they were suing over the promise of jobs after earning a degree, thus for both money spent to go to school as well as potential loss of earnings.

In this case I would focus on the federal education regulations (DOE) as well as fair trade practices (via FTC) that protect both students and tax payers from predatory lending. While AACOM is not in the same league as where these regulations were intended, as the sole provider of an educational path to Osteopathic schools, it has monopolistic charter, while allowable in this setting, carries a higher burden in fairness to prospective applicants to any Osteopathic college. Furthermore, proof of motivation and intent can be shown by the students themselves in why they would be repeating classes. So it isnt a loss of money to the student but rather misleading and changing policies from AACOM while federal funds where being used. While I am sure AACOM has published in its agreements the right to change policies without notice, its pronouncements today to almost everyone that it is trying to be transparent and give notice fall flat as it can be shown it was contractually obligated to this path in late 2014 or early 2015 when it signed an agreement with Liaisons International. It is the misleading nature of this that find, frankly immoral. Do I think I would prevail in any action? No. Do I think I could cause enough trouble for them to back down legally and politically, perhaps. Having some members of congress breathing down on DOE who in turn go breathing down AACOM, may work. I just want to block this 2-3 years solely to let the current crop work under the old policy. Besides, I need a hobby

And to add, @Sardinia -- your insight is very good. Just wanted to point out that students who went ahead and retook courses did so solely in pursuit of solely applying to DO schools. I believe this is more or less righteous because there are no other health profession programs (or application systems) that utilize grade replacement and require essentially the same prerequisite courses as osteopathic medical schools.

I'm not familiar with the policies of the grade calculations of other application systems, so I may not be 100% correct on this.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Holy ****. I feel terrible and frustrated on behalf of many applicants and students aiming for DO schools. I think this may cause, as others stated, for GPAs for incoming student to actually drop (by how much is anyone's guess...).

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

Hi everyone, I am a long-time lurker.

I'm not sure if this question has already been asked, but when I'm bored and looking for entertainment, where and when will I be able to find the DO vs. DO w/ grade-replacement threads?

 

[Cath Up]

Just asked AACOMAS customer support:

"Regarding the recent grade replacement removal decision- why is there no
lead-in period for this as there was with the MCAT 2015 change? It is my
understanding that many individuals that did utilize grade replacement used
it over the course of years *in place of* alternative programs like
Master's Programs or taking upper level coursework in lieu of repeating
lower level courses to improve their GPAs.

At current, there are many people that were in the process of spending lots
of money taking lower level courses that will (reasonably objectively) no
longer be as impactful as they believed. Does AACOMAS acknowledge this? I
am aware that individual schools have the opportunity to honor grade
replacement moving forward, but AACOMAS appears to have had the opportunity
to warn students before they made potentially non-advantageous decisions,
as some schools will most likely *not* honor grade replacement moving
forward. Why did that not occur as with the MCAT 2015 change?"

Curious to see if they give a generic response.

 

[Springmed1]

I am officially screwed, my gpa without grade replacement it's very low....
Sorry I gave up on you Ross university time to check you out again!

 

[edgerock24]

I am officially screwed, my gpa without grade replacement it's very low....
Sorry I gave up on you Ross university time to check you out again!

Australian, Israeli, and Irish schools may become decent options for those who have been screwed over because of this.

 

[efle]

AACOMAS customer support

I'd hate to be them right now

@gonnif or @Goro , do DO schools actually have the ability to honor replacement this cycle if they wanted to? Or is it simply not feasible for a COM admissions office to perform the mass GPA recalculations/verifications undoing the AACOMAS change?

 

[yanks26dmb]

Australian, Israeli, and Irish schools may become decent options for those who have been screwed over because of this.

Pre-meds...please, please, please.....ignore this advice.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I am officially screwed, my gpa without grade replacement it's very low....
Sorry I gave up on you Ross university time to check you out again!

Don't do it. 50% of grads don't match...and that number is only getting worse with the merger.

 

[edgerock24]

Pre-meds...please, please, please.....ignore this advice.

I don't think that these are great options, by all means. But a school like Sackler is still a 10x better option than Ross.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Holy ****. I feel terrible and frustrated on behalf of many applicants and students aiming for DO schools. I think this may cause, as others stated, for GPAs for incoming student to actually drop (by how much is anyone's guess...).

Honestly, I doubt it. Maybe at newer schools..maybe...

I know our school received 6000+ applications last year. I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could still find 150 students with GPA's at 3.5 or higher.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

Australian, Israeli, and Irish schools may become decent options for those who have been screwed over because of this.

Although I agree that the lack of notice is unethical and in bad taste, this policy had to be abandoned ASAP.

More importantly, this is horrible advice. Go to graduate school/SMP/self-directed post-bacc.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I don't think that these are great options, by all means. But a school like Sackler is still a 10x better option than Ross.

I agree Sackler is a better school, however, I don't think that's going to make much of a difference come residency application time. You're still a foreign grad. Sackler vs. Ross isn't going to be the deciding factor. You're not getting a leg up because you come from Sackler.

10 years ago, I'd say foreign isn't so bad. But with the merger, there's not a shot in hell I'd consider going to a foreign school anymore.

 

[efle]

The calculating isnt the problem per se. It is how to you now review and verify transcripts from applicants to decide what is a repeat. I do not know if the vast majority used automated software that can be configured to recalculate GPA from AACOMAS application nor how repeats are marked in the AACOMAS app. I have not worked on their stuff since AACOMAS moved to this new platform in 2015, so it is unlikely all the schools have compliant software.

Hopefully AACOMAS can at least flag retakes with a color and/or symbol so that all you need to do to reverse the policy is subtract the initial grade away from the final GPA. This way they still do all the heavy lifting of verification, and an admissions office only needs a simple equation, the number of credits, and the initial grade.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Hopefully AACOMAS can at least flag retakes with a color and/or symbol so that all you need to do to reverse the policy is subtract the initial grade away from the final GPA. This way they still do all the heavy lifting of verification, and an admissions office only needs a simple equation, the number of credits, and the initial grade.

I'd be curious to hear what @Goro says about this, but the idea that an admissions office is going to re-calculate 4, 5, 6+(?) thousand GPAs.....seems like a bit much to expect.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I agree Sackler is a better school, however, I don't think that's going to make much of a difference come residency application time. You're still a foreign grad. Sackler vs. Ross isn't going to be the deciding factor. You're not getting a leg up because you come from Sackler.

10 years ago, I'd say foreign isn't so bad. But with the merger, there's not a shot in hell I'd consider going to a foreign school anymore.

Agreed. Go to Podiatry school or Dental school over the Caribbean every time. Heck, even pharmacy has better job prospects.

 

[Shotapp]

I'd be curious to hear what @Goro says about this, but the idea that an admissions office is going to re-calculate 4, 5, 6+(?) thousand GPAs.....seems like a bit much to expect.

Yeah, that is not likely to happen (I agree with you). The fact that AACOMAS is shifting responsibility to DO schools to honor grade replacement is idiotic.

 

[Dustbowl12]

COCA is finished. Great news for patients

 

[Goro]

My school gets 6000 apps; I can't see our overworked Admissions staff being able to handle this.

I'd be curious to hear what @Goro says about this, but the idea that an admissions office is going to re-calculate 4, 5, 6+(?) thousand GPAs.....seems like a bit much to expect.

 

[Goro]

The wishful thinking is strong in this one.

COCA is finished. Great news for patients

 

[efle]

I'd be curious to hear what @Goro says about this, but the idea that an admissions office is going to re-calculate 4, 5, 6+(?) thousand GPAs.....seems like a bit much to expect.

You could write a simple program overnight to handle this if AACOMAS provides all the grade data in a standardized format, with something like an asterisk denoting the first take of a later retaken class!

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

My school gets 6000 apps; I can't see our overworked Admissions staff being able to handle this.

 

[yanks26dmb]

You could write a simple program overnight to handle this if AACOMAS provides all the grade data in a standardized format, with something like an asterisk denoting the first take of a later retaken class!

I'm not doubting the ease in which creating a way to do this could be constructed. I'm doubting admin offices going through the trouble of entering data into that program for 6000+ applicants.

 

[deleted572522]

I agree Sackler is a better school, however, I don't think that's going to make much of a difference come residency application time. You're still a foreign grad. Sackler vs. Ross isn't going to be the deciding factor. You're not getting a leg up because you come from Sackler.

10 years ago, I'd say foreign isn't so bad. But with the merger, there's not a shot in hell I'd consider going to a foreign school anymore.

Stop changing the topic of this thread. We are speculating about grade replacement now. No need to start discussing another topic that we are equally unsure about. I doubt anyone is taking foreign schools seriously anyways. Most will just give up on medicine if anything

 

[yanks26dmb]

Stop changing the topic of this thread. We are speculating about grade replacement now. No need to start discussing another topic that we are equally unsure about. I doubt anyone is taking foreign schools seriously anyways.

Are you the thread police?

 

[deleted572522]

Hopefully AACOMAS can at least flag retakes with a color and/or symbol so that all you need to do to reverse the policy is subtract the initial grade away from the final GPA. This way they still do all the heavy lifting of verification, and an admissions office only needs a simple equation, the number of credits, and the initial grade.

Well they did specifically say that the ONLY part of the application that will change is that we will no longer be allowed to enter 0 for the How many credits portion of the application...so maybe they will still ask us to flag retakes and AP courses and such

 

[619959]

Was a petition or anything of that sort created?
I feel as if the general public knows how many people oppose this change and want the grade replacement policy to be back, it would work better that just emailing AACOMAS or AACOM.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Was a petition or anything of that sort created?
I feel as if the general public knows how many people oppose this change and want the grade replacement policy to be back, it would work better that just emailing AACOMAS or AACOM.

first step would be getting the general public to know what osteopathic medicine is.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

first step would be getting the general public to know what osteopathic medicine is.

And the second step would be to stop the general public from being horrified from the fact that so many pre-osteo's want/need to take classes over again for a second time.

 

[SurgDoc95]

first step would be getting the general public to know what osteopathic medicine is.

Haha if I have another person ask if Osteopathic medical school is for bone doctors I'm gonna scream Wish I was joking too.

 

[619959]

first step would be getting the general public to know what osteopathic medicine is.

I should have phrased it better...by general public, I meant people like me and many others in this thread who are now screwed because of this OUT-OF-NOWHERE grade replacement policy change

 

[Shotapp]

Lol. But I understand the confusion....osteo..first thing that comes to mind..bone

 

[SurgDoc95]

Lol. But I understand the confusion....osteo..first thing that comes to mind..bone

First time someone asked me that I was in shock

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

And the second step would be to stop the general public from being horrified from the fact that so many pre-osteo's want/need to take classes over again for a second time.

You and many others keep conflating two issues into one. The policy of grade replacement, whether you agree with it or not, is not the issue. The issue is students were not notified of the change until AFTER they had invested thousand of dollars and countless hours into replacing grades. Those dollars and hours could have been used in a more effective way if we as students had known about the change in advance.

Its okay if they take away grade replacement, but doing it without warning leaves many people in a giant hole of debt, despair, and disbelief. That is really the issue.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

You and many others keep conflating two issues into one. The policy of grade replacement, whether you agree with it or not, is not the issue. The issue is students were not notified of the change until AFTER they had invested thousand of dollars and countless hours into replacing grades. Those dollars and hours could have been used in a more effective way if we as students had known about the change in advance.

Its okay if they take away grade replacement, but doing it without warning leaves many people in a giant hole of debt, despair, and disbelief. That is really the issue.

Take it easy!

What's happening is nothing short of unethical. The minimum notice should have been 2-3 years. But alas, life is not fair...

 

[yanks26dmb]

And the second step would be to stop the general public from being horrified from the fact that so many pre-osteo's want/need to take classes over again for a second time.

I'm torn on this. I bombed loads of classes freshman year because I was lazy, never went to class, etc. I took summer classes to make up some credits and just stopped showing up. Didn't even consider the hit on my gpa. Med school wasn't even on the radar. I did finish college with a strong upward trend, but a gpa that was sub 3.0 due to those horrible first two years.

Fast forward 7 years later and I finish my post bacc with a 4.0, score above average on the MCAT, and raise my gpa due to several re-takes of nonsense classes I bombed the first time around, like english lit, microeconomics, etc. I also had some pretty killer X factors and life experience to boot.

MD schools wouldn't give me the time of day (i had a **** MD gpa). DO schools gave me love and here I am finishing second year, top quarter of the class. I don't say this to toot my own horn, just that there are definitely people out there who deserve a second chance and are in no way, shape, or form the same person they used to be.

THAT SAID.... i do think doing away with grade replacement and getting on par with MD schools is ultimately a good thing. we want to be seen as equal, well then we need to have all of our standards as equal. I do absolutely feel for everyone dealing with this right now, especially those like myself who may not have the same opportunity I had.

 

[kuzy]

If AACOMAS is going to do this, I feel like all osteopathic schools have to do to counter it (or at lease alleviate the effects) is to place explicit emphasis on the last 60-90 credit hours like some PA and MD schools do. This way you could reward reinvention and work done in a post-bac while still having the no retake policy.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Take it easy!

Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.

Edit: ok...

 

[NeuResurgens]

I don't have a problem with them changing the policy, but I do have a problem with them changing it months before the next application. You should allow at least two years for something like this.

 

[Dr5paceman]

some PA schools recalculate grades independent of their centralized application system, its been done...maybe some of their methodology can be borrowed

but is 5 months really enough time for any school to implement and troubleshoot a glitch free system to recalculate grades?

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

I'm torn on this. I bombed loads of classes freshman year because I was lazy, never went to class, etc. I took summer classes to make up some credits and just stopped showing up. Didn't even consider the hit on my gpa. Med school wasn't even on the radar. I did finish college with a strong upward trend, but a gpa that was sub 3.0 due to those horrible first two years.

Fast forward 7 years later and I finish my post bacc with a 4.0, score above average on the MCAT, and raise my gpa due to several re-takes of nonsense classes I bombed the first time around, like english lit, microeconomics, etc. I also had some pretty killer X factors and life experience to boot.

MD schools wouldn't give me the time of day (i had a **** MD gpa). DO schools gave me love and here I am finishing second year, top quarter of the class. I don't say this to toot my own horn, just that there are definitely people out there who deserve a second chance and are in no way, shape, or form the same person they used to be.

THAT SAID.... i do think doing away with grade replacement and getting on par with MD schools is ultimately a good thing. we want to be seen as equal, well then we need to have all of our standards as equal. I do absolutely feel for everyone dealing with this right now, especially those like myself who may not have the same opportunity I had.

Its easy to be torn when you're sitting pretty. There's no reasonable explanation to screw over a bunch of people.

Sent from my LG-K425 using SDN mobile

 

[yanks26dmb]

Its easy to be torn when you're sitting pretty. There's no reasonable explanation to screw over a bunch of people.

Sent from my LG-K425 using SDN mobile

I agree, it should not have been announced out of the blue. There should have been lead up time to this.

However, there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with.

 

[kuzy]

I agree, it should not have been announced out of the blue. There should have been lead up time to this.

However, there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with.

True, but then I think putting a policy in place that emphasizes the last 60-90 hours, whether they be in undergrad or a post-bac, would allow both people who had a slow start as well as non-trads to remain in the game