End of Grade Replacement?

[HowYouGetAnts]

I agree, it should not have been announced out of the blue. There should have been lead up time to this.

However, there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with.

There is not a reasonable argument to restrict access to people who have a rough background. Before you guys start mindlessly trying to understand the reasoning this move, stop for a moment and realize the growing problem of income inequality in America. Nothing about this policy change is good for people in general. It moves to keep privileged by birth people on top and those who's academic skills came later (usually lower social class) where they belong. This is a seriously out of touch move. For many people this is a upward movement in social mobility. This is a subject on the mcat for Christs sake.

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[tony101]

I agree, it should not have been announced out of the blue. There should have been lead up time to this.

However, there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with.

This is kind of hilarious, I mean you just told a story that you were able to get into DO schools by grade replacement and now you are demonstrating that you are basically the best in your class. Hence showing taking classes over doesn't mean you are worse than other students, yet you follow by saying "there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with."
I don't understand, your story removes the most common argument. That students who need to do things twice, aren't good enough to get by in med school which you are showing is false. Then the other point is, DO's have to show they are the same as MD schools? Why? What does that change? So if you become a DO, are you going to have a Star on it saying you were before the grade replacement ban thus you should expect an incompetent doctor? I don't know, your post was suppose to show the idea that grade replacement doesn't make a person any less but then you completely go against that idea. It just blows my mind, and I understand why you are saying that, because you are in med school so now you have nothing to worry about. BTW in case you think I am worried about it, I'm not. I never used grade replacement, and I'm already accepted to a med school BUT it doesn't mean I don't have the compassion and understanding to say having grade replacement is not a bad thing.

 

[Shotapp]

I don't see the point of discussing this topic further aacomASS have made their decisions and there is nothing that I am aware of that will change it. It is what it is. Put one foot in front of the other is all I can say.

Edit: This change in policy affected me as well

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

There is not a reasonable argument to restrict access to people who have a rough background. Before you guys start mindlessly trying to understand the reasoning this move, stop for a moment and realize the growing problem of income inequality in America. Nothing about this policy change is good for people in general. It moves to keep privileged by birth people on top and those who's academic skills came later (usually lower social class) where they belong. This is a seriously out of touch move. For many people this is a upward movement in social mobility. This is a subject on the mcat for Christs sake.

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I grew up in foster care and have been dirt poor since birth. If you want something, you find a way to get it. There are those that blame their circumstances and those who work steadfastly to change them, not only for themselves, but also, for others.

Disagree. You are making pretty huge leaps there. Granted some of it is income status, but by their own admission a lot of people who bombed earlier years of college did it for many reasons other than resources or income as you put it. Also, this is where upward trends and good mcat scores come in. The idea of using the same standards for MD and DO is actually brilliant, especially to make the argument for equality between both degrees. Like many people here have said, the issue here is timing. The surprise factor is what is annoying here, not that we are being held to the same standards as our MD peers.

Well said. Everyone wants equality between MD/DO except for when it comes to admission standards. All actions in life have consequences and, more importantly, there are thousands of people who have overcome obstacles (SES, etc.) and early lack of interest to achieve MD/DO without utilizing/heavily utilizing grade replacement. Not everyone can become a physician. You will either find a way to get there are you won't. Grade replacement, at the end of the day, should not determine whether or not you succeed.

BUT THE LACK OF NOTICE IS ATROCIOUS.

 

[yanks26dmb]

This is kind of hilarious, I mean you just told a story that you were able to get into DO schools by grade replacement and now you are demonstrating that you are basically the best in your class. Hence showing taking classes over doesn't mean you are worse than other students, yet you follow by saying "there is absolutely an argument that grade replacement should be done away with."
I don't understand, your story removes the most common argument. That students who need to do things twice, aren't good enough to get by in med school which you are showing is false. Then the other point is, DO's have to show they are the same as MD schools? Why? What does that change? So if you become a DO, are you going to have a Star on it saying you were before the grade replacement ban thus you should expect an incompetent doctor? I don't know, your post was suppose to show the idea that grade replacement doesn't make a person any less but then you completely go against that idea. It just blows my mind, and I understand why you are saying that, because you are in med school so now you have nothing to worry about. BTW in case you think I am worried about it, I'm not. I never used grade replacement, and I'm already accepted to a med school BUT it doesn't mean I don't have the compassion and understanding to say having grade replacement is not a bad thing.

Yes, and despite being a stand out student, great with patients, and (hopefully) solid board scores there are some truths which must be addressed...

-There are many rotation sites who will not accept me.
-There are many residency directors who will not look at my application
-There are residency directors who will require I have higher stats to remain competitive than my MD peers
-There are many fields of medicine that are extremely competitive to me, and only moderately competitive to my MD peers
-There are residency directors who will not accept my degree mandated board exams
-There are researchers who will not allow me to work for them because of my degree
-The list goes on...

A lot of these above mentioned issues stem from the fact that many do not see MD's/DO's as equals. Or they simply do not believe we can handle the work. Or be a good resident. Or possibly be as smart as the MD students they take every year for research assignments.

The merger is supposed to make things more equal in the long run. If we want to be seen as equal to our MD peers, why should the standards for admission be different? Why should it be easier to get into DO school?

Personally and morally, I think people should be allowed to reinvent themselves just as I have. Professionally and logically, I see no benefit in making gaining acceptance easier. This is why I am torn. Yes, I benefitted from grade replacement and have shown re-invention is very possible. On the other hand, it sucks to have to fight an uphill battle as we continue applying for rotation sites, then residency, then fellowship. I think making things equal, in all aspects of admissions/education will one day level the playing field for DOs. There is nothing illogical about that or the argument I put forth.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

I grew up in foster care and have been dirt poor since birth. If you want something, you find a way to get it. There are those that blame their circumstances and those who work steadfastly to change them, not only for themselves, but also, for others.

Well said. Everyone wants equality between MD/DO except for when it comes to admission standards. All actions in life have consequences and, more importantly, there are thousands of people who have overcome obstacles (SES, etc.) and early lack of interest to achieve MD/DO without utilizing/heavily utilizing grade replacement. Not everyone can become a physician. You will either find a way to get there are you won't. Grade replacement, at the end of the day, should not determine whether or not you succeed.

BUT THE LACK OF NOTICE IS ATROCIOUS.

Doesn't matter if you were in foster care. Not everyone is you.

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[Nietzsche's Barber]

Doesn't matter if you were in foster care. Not everyone is you.

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I understand that. But my point still rings clear and true: if you want something bad enough, find a way to get there instead of complaining and blaming your circumstances. Life only gets more difficult...

 

[tony101]

I grew up in foster care and have been dirt poor since birth. If you want something, you find a way to get it. There are those that blame their circumstances and those who work steadfastly to change them, not only for themselves, but also, for others.

You know, I truly despise that mentality that has been shown false by most studies in sociology. I grew up in a household, parents making 10k a year, in 2 bedroom with 7 people. My school had a massive drop out rate, we almost lost accreditation, and I basically started at the bottom of college on every subject because of how ill-prepared I was. Do you know what? I finished with a 3.5 cGPA(without grade replacement), 504MCAT, 100's of volunteer, shadowing, research, etc. Want to know something? Look at my school, most of the kids didn't go anywhere, most of them dropped out, got into college but couldn't handle it, they never had a chance. I was the exception at my school, not the rule and I'm tired of people online who are either full of crap or are the exception stating this bs line that sociologically, has been proven false. It isn't "Oh If I try really really hard, I'll get a 4.0 and go to Harvard and become a billionaire". No the reality is it's basically if you are born in an impoverished area with no resources, gangfilled area, you most likely won't succeed. Just like I ended up making it to Med school, there are hundreds if not Thousands of kids who did not go anywhere in my school, they never had a chance. How did I make it? You know, I wake up every morning and ask myself that question. Ask myself how I got this bachelors degree, how I got my minor in computer science, how I achieved all these things? And you know what I say? A lot of work and even more luck. The reality is most people who are in those areas that are improverished, high gangs, etc won't have a chance and this grade replacement does destroy many peoples chances. Don't kid yourself and think this doesn't stop people or will block people, it certainly will and that is another reason that it pisses me off. I did grow up in those areas, I did make it, but I barely did it and me saying "I made it so everyone else should" is nothing more than a fallacy.

 

[Shotapp]

Doesn't matter if you were in foster care. Not everyone is you.

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What?!

 

[yanks26dmb]

There is not a reasonable argument to restrict access to people who have a rough background. Before you guys start mindlessly trying to understand the reasoning this move, stop for a moment and realize the growing problem of income inequality in America. Nothing about this policy change is good for people in general. It moves to keep privileged by birth people on top and those who's academic skills came later (usually lower social class) where they belong. This is a seriously out of touch move. For many people this is a upward movement in social mobility. This is a subject on the mcat for Christs sake.

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Any studies that show lower income individuals have better grades later in college/in post-bacc?

I've never heard nor seen this. Wondering where you're coming up with this stuff...

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

You know, I truly despise that mentality that has been shown false by most studies in sociology. I grew up in a household, parents making 10k a year, in 2 bedroom with 7 people. My school had a massive drop out rate, we almost lost accreditation, and I basically started at the bottom of college on every subject because of how ill-prepared I was. Do you know what? I finished with a 3.5 cGPA(without grade replacement), 504MCAT, 100's of volunteer, shadowing, research, etc. Want to know something? Look at my school, most of the kids didn't go anywhere, most of them dropped out, got into college but couldn't handle it, they never had a chance. I was the exception at my school, not the rule and I'm tired of people online who are either full of crap or are the exception stating this bs line that sociologically, has been proven false. It isn't "Oh If I try really really hard, I'll get a 4.0 and go to Harvard and become a billionaire". No the reality is it's basically if you are born in an impoverished area with no resources, gangfilled area, you most likely won't succeed. Just like I ended up making it to Med school, there are hundreds if not Thousands of kids who did not go anywhere in my school, they never had a chance. How did I make it? You know, I wake up every morning and ask myself that question. Ask myself how I got this bachelors degree, how I got my minor in computer science, how I achieved all these things? And you know what I say? A lot of work and even more luck. The reality is most people who are in those areas that are improverished, high gangs, etc won't have a chance and this grade replacement does destroy many peoples chances. Don't kid yourself and think this doesn't stop people or will block people, it certainly will and that is another reason that it pisses me off. I did grow up in those areas, I did make it, but I barely did it and me saying "I made it so everyone else should" is nothing more than a fallacy.

I actually majored in sociology during undergrad and firmly agree with almost everything you said. You and I made it and some people don't. Again, not everyone can become a physician, and if you really want it, you'll find a way.

 

[yanks26dmb]

You know, I truly despise that mentality that has been shown false by most studies in sociology. I grew up in a household, parents making 10k a year, in 2 bedroom with 7 people. My school had a massive drop out rate, we almost lost accreditation, and I basically started at the bottom of college on every subject because of how ill-prepared I was. Do you know what? I finished with a 3.5 cGPA(without grade replacement), 504MCAT, 100's of volunteer, shadowing, research, etc. Want to know something? Look at my school, most of the kids didn't go anywhere, most of them dropped out, got into college but couldn't handle it, they never had a chance. I was the exception at my school, not the rule and I'm tired of people online who are either full of crap or are the exception stating this bs line that sociologically, has been proven false. It isn't "Oh If I try really really hard, I'll get a 4.0 and go to Harvard and become a billionaire". No the reality is it's basically if you are born in an impoverished area with no resources, gangfilled area, you most likely won't succeed. Just like I ended up making it to Med school, there are hundreds if not Thousands of kids who did not go anywhere in my school, they never had a chance. How did I make it? You know, I wake up every morning and ask myself that question. Ask myself how I got this bachelors degree, how I got my minor in computer science, how I achieved all these things? And you know what I say? A lot of work and even more luck. The reality is most people who are in those areas that are improverished, high gangs, etc won't have a chance and this grade replacement does destroy many peoples chances. Don't kid yourself and think this doesn't stop people or will block people, it certainly will and that is another reason that it pisses me off. I did grow up in those areas, I did make it, but I barely did it and me saying "I made it so everyone else should" is nothing more than a fallacy.

And this is why affirmative action should be based on income not race.

Grade replacement shouldn't fill that role.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

And this is why affirmative action should be based on income not race.

Grade replacement shouldn't fill that role.

Very true.

 

[tony101]

And this is why affirmative action should be based on income not race.

Grade replacement shouldn't fill that role.

What the hell are you talking about, my point isn't what affirmative action should help or people getting into undergrad. My point is, once I got into undergrad, I was ill-prepared and when I mean ill-prepared, I mean I was studying 14 hours a day barely holding on to any chance. I started at the bottom of everything and I had to climb my way up. How would Affirmative action help kids who struggled the first 2-3 quarters(or semesters), how would that change anything for med school?

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

Any studies that show lower income individuals have better grades later in college/in post-bacc?

I've never heard nor seen this. Wondering where you're coming up with this stuff...

Start with privileged individuals doing better in school first. This attitude right here is why they added social sciences to premed.

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[HowYouGetAnts]

What?!

He's making an argument based on personal experience.

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[SurgDoc95]

What the hell are you talking about, my point isn't what affirmative action should help or people getting into undergrad. My point is, once I got into undergrad, I was ill-prepared and when I mean ill-prepared, I mean I was studying 14 hours a day barely holding on to any chance. I started at the bottom of everything and I had to climb my way up. How would Affirmative action help kids who struggled the first 2-3 quarters(or semesters), how would that change anything for med school?

Maybe that URM should be changed to those under a certain SES?

 

[yanks26dmb]

What the hell are you talking about, my point isn't what affirmative action should help or people getting into undergrad. My point is, once I got into undergrad, I was ill-prepared and when I mean ill-prepared, I mean I was studying 14 hours a day barely holding on to any chance. I started at the bottom of everything and I had to climb my way up. How would Affirmative action help kids who struggled the first 2-3 quarters(or semesters), how would that change anything for med school?

Im actually surprised I need to explain this, but Ill do it anyways.

Those students who struggled initially (from a worse/poorer/etc school district) will likely have lower overall GPA's than those students who didn't struggle initially because they came in better prepared (from a better/wealthier/etc school district).

In the context that we're speaking, affirmative action lowers standards for admission to undergraduate or graduate school. Therefore, a student of low SES would face less stringent admission requirements when evaluated for admission.

Just FYI, I'm not debating whether AA is good, bad or indifferent.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

Let's not get off track into a URM vs. low-SES debate though.

All I was saying is that living with the "butt hurt" mentality that society is against you and that you are disadvantaged as an ADULT who can change his/her circumstances will not get you very far and often leads to a piss-poor attitude. If you want it, go get it. Grade replacement or no grade replacement. As a wise man once told me, people have achieved much more with far less.

People who want to become physicians find a way.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Start with privileged individuals doing better in school first. This attitude right here is why they added social sciences to premed.

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Just FYI, I was not privileged...very far from it. Asking for evidence for a claim shouldn't be seen as a negative thing.

I fully agree coming from a lower SES puts you at a disadvantage. My argument is, grade replacement shouldn't be the thing that accounts for that. Affirmative action, or something similar, should be the great equalizer. But until it's based on SES and NOT race, that cannot be.

 

[bigindian4891]

Well this thread is quite the rollercoaster.

 

[psu228]

Everything will be fine. Yes, this sucks and they handled it horribly. I think we need to let this unfold for a few days and see how DO schools respond. Will they calculate GPAs individually? No way. But that doesn't mean they won't take retakes into account. I personally believe that as long as you get past an auto screen and have your app looked at by an adcom, this won't impact your chances as greatly as it seems.

 

[tony101]

Im actually surprised I need to explain this, but Ill do it anyways.

Those students who struggled initially (from a worse/poorer/etc school district) will likely have lower overall GPA's than those students who didn't struggle initially because they came in better prepared (from a better/wealthier/etc school district).

In the context that we're speaking, affirmative action lowers standards for admission to undergraduate or graduate school. Therefore, a student of low SES would face less stringent admission requirements when evaluated for admission.

Just FYI, I'm not debating whether AA is good, bad or indifferent.

It does work for undergrad but I don't care about that, I am stating if you weren't prepared, were taken to undergrad anyways, and then you did terribly the first couple of quarters and your grades took a hit. Then you have a gpa that is dragged down when applying to med schools and I don't even think most Med schools follow Affirmative action. They may go with ethnicities if doctors have a shortage there but that's another story. My point is, grade replacement shows you can be great and just stumbled. You are the person that shows this story. If you are telling me "But its harder to specialize", well that comes with the territory, but you are only saying that because you are already in Med school and that in my opinion is even more insulting. You literally are saying "Well I made it and I don't want to look less than MD, so destroy the way I got into this school for everyone after me, and now make me look the same as MD!"
It's just so absurd and this is again coming from someone who hasn't used it, who would actually benefit from a system that does this because everyone who used it would decrease and I would look better.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

I would argue that this does not make you look as though you are great. Taking and acing upper level sciences shows that you can be great.

 

[Shotapp]

@HowYouGetAnts

What I got from Nietzsche's Barber's post was don't allow the circumstances you have been dealt to influence your outcome. This policy change is a very big bump in the road so I understand the frustration. But honestly how bad do you want to become a physician? What are you willing to risk? how long can you continue on this journey? Life is very unfair. You might be gone tomorrow and no one here would know or care. Same thing if you walk away from this ambitious endeavor to become a physician. But you know what? I can't possibly quit not until I have given everything I have got despite what situation I might be in.

 

[yanks26dmb]

It does work for undergrad but I don't care about that, I am stating if you weren't prepared, were taken to undergrad anyways, and then you did terribly the first couple of quarters and your grades took a hit. Then you have a gpa that is dragged down when applying to med schools and I don't even think most Med schools follow Affirmative action. They may go with ethnicities if doctors have a shortage there but that's another story. My point is, grade replacement shows you can be great and just stumbled. You are the person that shows this story. If you are telling me "But its harder to specialize", well that comes with the territory, but you are only saying that because you are already in Med school and that in my opinion is even more insulting. You literally are saying "Well I made it and I don't want to look less than MD, so destroy the way I got into this school for everyone after me, and now make me look the same as MD!"
It's just so absurd and this is again coming from someone who hasn't used it, who would actually benefit from a system that does this because everyone who used it would decrease and I would look better.

Yes, affirmative action works for medical school too. Being a URM means you are more likely to get in to a school you would otherwise get rejected from. That's affirmative action.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

@HowYouGetAnts

What I got from Nietzsche's Barber's post was don't allow the circumstances you have been dealt to influence your outcome. This policy change is a very big bump in the road so I understand the frustration. But honestly how bad do you want to become a physician? What are you willing to risk? how long can you continue on this journey? Life is very unfair. You might be gone tomorrow and no one here would know or care. Same thing if you walk away from this ambitious endeavor to become a physician. But you know what? I can't possibly quit not until I have given everything I have got despite what situation I might be in.

This!!!!

Best of luck, my friend!

 

[SurgDoc95]

It does work for undergrad but I don't care about that, I am stating if you weren't prepared, were taken to undergrad anyways, and then you did terribly the first couple of quarters and your grades took a hit. Then you have a gpa that is dragged down when applying to med schools and I don't even think most Med schools follow Affirmative action. They may go with ethnicities if doctors have a shortage there but that's another story. My point is, grade replacement shows you can be great and just stumbled. You are the person that shows this story. If you are telling me "But its harder to specialize", well that comes with the territory, but you are only saying that because you are already in Med school and that in my opinion is even more insulting. You literally are saying "Well I made it and I don't want to look less than MD, so destroy the way I got into this school for everyone after me, and now make me look the same as MD!"
It's just so absurd and this is again coming from someone who hasn't used it, who would actually benefit from a system that does this because everyone who used it would decrease and I would look better.

Regardless of background retaking freshman and sophomore level courses does not prove you can be great. It shows that you can do the work now. Bad grades your first couple of semesters with an upward trend afterwards followed by a DIY post bacc of upper level science courses shows you can be great.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

@HowYouGetAnts

What I got from Nietzsche's Barber's post was don't allow the circumstances you have been dealt to influence your outcome. This policy change is a very big bump in the road so I understand the frustration. But honestly how bad do you want to become a physician? What are you willing to risk? how long can you continue on this journey? Life is very unfair. You might be gone tomorrow and no one here would know or care. Same thing if you walk away from this ambitious endeavor to become a physician. But you know what? I can't possibly quit not until I have given everything I have got despite what situation I might be in.

That's good and I encourage you to persevere. But like I said to someone else, the world is not you. I swear a lot of people on here have not bothered with social science at all, which is troubling.

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[Nietzsche's Barber]

That's good and I encourage you to persevere. But like I said to someone else, the world is not you. I swear a lot of people on here have not bothered with social science at all, which is troubling.

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What's troubling is that some people on here believe to be experts in social science when their grades are so bad that grade replacement disastrously impacts them. Quit using your knowledge as padding to protect you from failure and go out and get it!

If not, you'll become that bitter person no one likes to chill with.

 

[yanks26dmb]

And @tony101 these changes I'm talking about, which would equalize MD/DO, aren't going to help me in the least. This isn't about self-gain here. These are things that will take time, but hopefully, maybe 10 or so years down the road, will benefit future DO's that come after me.

This is just a matter of my opinion on the subject which you are obviously irritated by because this grade replacement is going to affect you negatively. Again, I feel for you and people like you. I wish you all the best and hope things work out in the end.

 

[SurgDoc95]

That's good and I encourage you to persevere. But like I said to someone else, the world is not you. I swear a lot of people on here have not bothered with social science at all, which is troubling.

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There are also some of us who have a minor in it but still believe that some people make excuses. Yes being of low SES puts you at a disadvantage but using that as a crutch does nothing but hold you back.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

. Quit using your knowledge.

K

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[Nietzsche's Barber]

There are also some of us who have a minor in it but still believe that some people make excuses. Yes being of low SES puts you at a disadvantage but using that as a crutch does nothing but hold you back.

Well not everyone can be in the prestigious group of state school undergrad sociology majors.

 

[tony101]

And @tony101 these changes I'm talking about, which would equalize MD/DO, aren't going to help me in the least. This isn't about self-gain here. These are things that will take time, but hopefully, maybe 10 or so years down the road, will benefit future DO's that come after me.

This is just a matter of my opinion on the subject which you are obviously irritated by because this grade replacement is going to affect you negatively. Again, I feel for you and people like you. I wish you all the best and hope things work out in the end.

Buddy you really need to work on your reading comprehension. As I said in the previous 2-3 posts, I have not used grade replacement at all, my cGPA is a 3.5 regardless of this change and I have already been accepted to Med school for 2017. The irony here is I am showing more compassion and outrage for people who were in your position then you as a person are. Which is ironic because you only got to where you are because of grade replacement which you openly admitted. Facepalm

 

[sammiesings]

That's good and I encourage you to persevere. But like I said to someone else, the world is not you. I swear a lot of people on here have not bothered with social science at all, which is troubling.

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No. What's troubling is you think a) you're the only one coming from disadvantage and b) that once you come from a disadvantaged background, you're done for. There's nothing you can do, everything will always be set up against you.

If that's the case, why are you even bothering? With or without grade replacement, you're screwed- given your logic.

You can't just keep telling people like me and the others on here that "not everyone is you" as your excuse for why you haven't made it but we have. Grow up, man up and fight. Or STFU and get out.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I understand everyone is a little surprised by this change.

I would like to remind everyone to stay professional about this topic.

 

[Doctor or bust]

Who's to say something like affirmative action would necessarily be a good thing though? There have been numerous problems cited with this including that if you admit someone who is in a program superior to that they would be a good fit for, that they don't pass it at the same rate. There are few solutions without drawbacks. The MCAT was made to equalize all college students as a nationwide standardized test. Those who do well on the MCAT still have a likely shot at medical school as long as they have an upward trending GPA and some good ECs.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

A) I don't come from disadvantage, you're assuming. B) this is unequivocally not good for disadvantaged individuals.

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[yanks26dmb]

Buddy you really need to work on your reading comprehension. As I said in the previous 2-3 posts, I have not used grade replacement at all, my cGPA is a 3.5 regardless of this change and I have already been accepted to Med school for 2017. The irony here is I am showing more compassion and outrage for people who were in your position then you as a person are. Which is ironic because you only got to where you are because of grade replacement which you openly admitted. Facepalm

Then you're going to be a great doctor. I'm happy for you. All the best.

 

[SurgDoc95]

A) I don't come from disadvantage, you're assuming. B) this is unequivocally not good for disadvantaged individuals.

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So your speaking about a subject that you have no personal experience with other than you are really into social science? Excuse me for saying this but I'm going to guess those that you're arguing with aren't going to take your opinion too seriously.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yes, and despite being a stand out student, great with patients, and (hopefully) solid board scores there are some truths which must be addressed...

-There are many rotation sites who will not accept me.
-There are many residency directors who will not look at my application
-There are residency directors who will require I have higher stats to remain competitive than my MD peers
-There are many fields of medicine that are extremely competitive to me, and only moderately competitive to my MD peers
-There are residency directors who will not accept my degree mandated board exams
-There are researchers who will not allow me to work for them because of my degree
-The list goes on...

A lot of these above mentioned issues stem from the fact that many do not see MD's/DO's as equals. Or they simply do not believe we can handle the work. Or be a good resident. Or possibly be as smart as the MD students they take every year for research assignments.

The merger is supposed to make things more equal in the long run. If we want to be seen as equal to our MD peers, why should the standards for admission be different? Why should it be easier to get into DO school?

Personally and morally, I think people should be allowed to reinvent themselves just as I have. Professionally and logically, I see no benefit in making gaining acceptance easier. This is why I am torn. Yes, I benefitted from grade replacement and have shown re-invention is very possible. On the other hand, it sucks to have to fight an uphill battle as we continue applying for rotation sites, then residency, then fellowship. I think making things equal, in all aspects of admissions/education will one day level the playing field for DOs. There is nothing illogical about that or the argument I put forth.

I'll make this easier in terms of why removing the grade replacement policy doesn't do anything. Look at HBCU medical schools and stats and compare them to the best DO school you can think of. Im pretty sure the best DO school have better stats, heck even without grade replacement it won't drop their averages much. Now look both their match lists. the HBCUs are still better. The reason is because of the higher standards clinical training and research of LCME schools. Changing the GPA requirements doesn't do anything to make us on par with our MD counter parts.

 

[eggsntoast]

I was one of those people relying on grade replacement to apply this cycle. I don't want sympathy. I admit i fooled around too much in my undergrad, however I worked EXTREMELY hard in my post bacc to replace classes i had gotten C's in, off the advice of my pre-med advisor.

While i understand them wanting to end grade replacement, the fact that they gave no notice whatsoever is unacceptable to me. I spent THOUSANDS of dollars retaking classes that will be averaged in and not replaced. If i had known, i would have taken additional upper level science classes to help my GPA. They should have made a formal announcement last year that this would be implemented this year. I was going to apply this cycle. This screws up everything up for me. This is not acceptable. The MCAT change was announced in advance. They should have done the same.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I'll make this easier in terms of why removing the grade replacement policy doesn't do anything. Look at HBCU medical schools and stats and compare them to the best DO school you can think of. Im pretty sure the best DO school have better stats, heck even without grade replacement it won't drop their averages much. Now look both their match lists. the HBCUs are still better. The reason is because of the higher standards clinical training and research of LCME schools. Changing the GPA requirements doesn't do anything to make us on par with our MD counter parts.

Agreed that its the clinical education which is the biggest divider right now. Nonetheless, I think every step in the direction towards 100% equalization is the right way to go.

Different admission standards just doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Doctor or bust]

I really don't think much is going to change across the DO schools this next coming semester as far as matriculant GPAs go due to the massive applicant pools that they have available. Assume 10k people apply. Drop half of them as they were riding on grade replacement. This still leaves 5k people to work with. If there is a drop in GPA it won't be a large one and certainly not by more than .1.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I was one of those people relying on grade replacement to apply this cycle. I don't want sympathy. I admit i fooled around too much in my undergrad, however I worked EXTREMELY hard in my post bacc to replace classes i had gotten C in on the advice on my pre-med advisor.

While i understand them wanting to end grade replacement, the fact that they gave no notice whatsoever is unacceptable to me. I spent THOUSANDS of dollars retaking classes that will not be averaged in and not replaced. If i had known, i would have taken additional upper level science classes to help my GPA. They should have made a formal announcement last year that this would be implemented this year. I was going to apply this cycle. This screws up everything up for me. This is not acceptable. The MCAT change was announced in advance. They should have done the same.

Are they not counting both grades?

 

[HMtoDO]

Are they not counting both grades?

They are but I think she mistyped it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[IslandStyle808]

Agreed that its the clinical education which is the biggest divider right now. Nonetheless, I think every step in the direction towards 100% equalization is the right way to go.

Different admission standards just doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

Think of it this way, HBCU have a different perspective in terms of how they pick applicants. Yet, they are just as respected as many other schools w/ much higher stats and can match just as well.

Even behind the scenes, schools have their own ways of picking applicants. Some school will weight gGPA equal as ugGPA. Some will put more weight on the last 60 credits or so of ugGPA. There was one school that even weighed ugGPA (degree GPA) more than post-bacc GPA (non degree GPA). So how would grade replacement make us any less equal than the following scenarios than what these MD school do above?

 

[0dee]

I really don't think much is going to change across the DO schools this next coming semester as far as matriculant GPAs go due to the massive applicant pools that they have available. Assume 10k people apply. Drop half of them as they were riding on grade replacement. This still leaves 5k people to work with. If there is a drop in GPA it won't be a large one and certainly not by more than .1.

The average DO school gets around 5-6k applicants, except for PCOM, NSU, and NYIT. So that 10k number is a bit high. The average cumulative GPA might not get hit that hard, but sGPA will definitely drop. There is a reason people applied DO, and grade replacement was the most important factor.

 

[yanks26dmb]

The average DO school gets around 5-6k applicants, except for PCOM, NSU, and NYIT. So that 10k number is a bit high. The average cumulative GPA might not get hit that hard, but sGPA will definitely drop. There is a reason people applied DO, and grade replacement was the most important factor.

If you think a school can't find 150 people out of 5-6k with an average GPA of 3.5-3.6, you're crazy. I don't see stats dropping at all.