Don't go to Dental School

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I don't think there is an easy answer. Dentistry is definitely not easy. I bet none of your examples come with a $3-4,000/mo student loan to pay off. That's stress.

They also make 2/3 or 1/2 of a typical dentist's salary
To be entirely honest -

If I realized I needed to spend 1 year after dental school in a GPR (not required, but "encouraged" so that you don't earn only 40k your first year due to hand speed being slow), and an additional 2 years as an associate making 90k before any bank would lend me 400k to buy a practice....

I would have just gone to medical school and done EM instead. 300k coming out, 3 year residency, noncompetitive - done and done. Looking at that other "dental field sucks thread" the OP wasn't exactly exaggerating. I looked into it - these guys literally only work like 8-10 shifts a month (3 days a week). wtf? It's unreal how little they work....

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/medscape-2015-physician-compensation.1132245/#post-16415418

But hindsight is 20/20 I guess...

They still take call, and most of them work rotating 12s (7 on and 7 off). EM seems like a great deal, but they are still averaging more than 50 hours per week and their residency pays between $50k and $60k typically. It's not a bad gig, but it's not "better" than dentistry. Having spent over two years in the E.D. I will add that they spend most of their time doing paperwork, and they are often frustrated at their lack of basic autonomy. Again, the grass is greener. Go hang out on the medical forums for a while and see how many pre-meds and med students complain that they wish they had gone dental.

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Psychiatry is the best gig in healthcare right now. No physical manual labor like dentistry. Reimbursement is going up. Stress-free, no finishing notes at home, etc. At least $200k, and you can come home without stress and have the time/energy/happiness to pursue other business interests to bring in more money if you would like.
 
Psychiatry is the best gig in healthcare right now. No physical manual labor like dentistry. Reimbursement is going up. Stress-free, no finishing notes at home, etc. At least $200k, and you can come home without stress and have the time/energy/happiness to pursue other business interests to bring in more money if you would like.


Lol
 
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Psychiatry is the best gig in healthcare right now. No physical manual labor like dentistry. Reimbursement is going up. Stress-free, no finishing notes at home, etc. At least $200k, and you can come home without stress and have the time/energy/happiness to pursue other business interests to bring in more money if you would like.
I cannot take you seriously with your name and picture.
 
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Psychiatry is the best gig in healthcare right now. No physical manual labor like dentistry. Reimbursement is going up. Stress-free, no finishing notes at home, etc. At least $200k, and you can come home without stress and have the time/energy/happiness to pursue other business interests to bring in more money if you would like.

Not sure if this post was facetious but just in case...

This is assuming that you will only be seeing relatively mentally healthy, easy patients. Maybe if you have a cush private practice job which may later cause you an existential crisis when you realize you aren't helping those that really need help.

One of my friends is going into a psych residency with the goal of working in an inpatient setting. She genuinely wants to help people who are very mentally ill. One of her female professors was recently punched in the face by a patient. It is not a stress-free walk in the park; it can be very dangerous. I'm also pretty sure there is much more paperwork in psychiatry than you realize.

If your post was in jest, my apologies for letting it fly over my head.
 
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Psychiatry is the best gig in healthcare right now. No physical manual labor like dentistry. Reimbursement is going up. Stress-free, no finishing notes at home, etc. At least $200k, and you can come home without stress and have the time/energy/happiness to pursue other business interests to bring in more money if you would like.

Why would anyone go to dental school if they didn't want to work with their hands? As a psych major, many of my professors are clinical psychologists and their clinical jobs are anything but a walk in the park (psychotic patients, violent admissions, suicidal and homicidal individuals). Human behavior is incredibly complex with tons of complementary theories that try to explain it. No one should ever work in mental health, unless that is their true passion. I respect the work they do very much, but I'd rather stick to generally healthy populations.
 
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I cannot take you seriously with your name and picture.

The top one tenth of one percent make more money than the bottom 99%. The take home message from San Bernandio attack is that we are fighting a war, and the war is against climate change.
 
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@Firm keep your negativity to yourself, everyone has their own designated path, what happens to one person won't happen to another. Everyone is completely different, I have my tuition covered with a trust-fund do you think I should still give up dentistry???????? I understand we'll all encounter some struggles on this journey and we all will do whatever it takes to push through. But if you're having a struggle that's sticking to you and causing you to be bitter about pursuing a dental career, then I guess you're not working hard enough and maybe your not cut out for this competition.


Lol.
 
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The top one tenth of one percent make more money than the bottom 99%. The take home message from San Bernandio attack is that we are fighting a war, and the war is against climate change.
Ok so you're doing it ironically. I can dig it.
UUUUGGGGHHHHH, this makes my brain hurt
There's no way that last post was serious lol
 
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It's not worth it. You'll end up graduating with $500,000+ in debt and will spend your entire life working in a corporation paying it off. The dental ship has sailed. You have been warned.
Maybe dentistry is not worth it for you, but don't discourage young minds away from a good career just because you do not have the pay out you want. I was a nurse prior and I know for a fact even if you are making awesome money which I was believe me, your job will still suck if you have no passion for it. Who cares about the debt if you enjoy what you do its all worth it
 
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sounds more like you are scared of the challenge
 
I know several orthos who only have a job 1-2 days per week, the corps will hire whoever will work for the least amount of money

Just getting through this thread....I didn't know that ortho was having a tough time until just last week. I had an otho in my office dropping off referral pads. He was all proud of the fact that he just signed a 5 year contract with a large group practice of orthodontists (privately owned). He was really happy with the locked in salary. I was happy for him and had the impression that the locked in salary would be rather high.

The next day I was hanging out with an orthodontist friend of mine and I told her about this other orthodontist who was all excited about his deal. My friend laughed and said that she had just had lunch with the owner of that group practice the other day and he was bragging about how he locked down that orthodontist for 200k for 5 years! I had no idea you could ever lock down an ortho for that little. The crazy thing is that ortho took it and was smiling about it. WTF.
 
Maybe dentistry is not worth it for you, but don't discourage young minds away from a good career just because you do not have the pay out you want. I was a nurse prior and I know for a fact even if you are making awesome money which I was believe me, your job will still suck if you have no passion for it. Who cares about the debt if you enjoy what you do its all worth it
Go ahead then! Knock yourself out! Good Luck.
 
It's not worth it. You'll end up graduating with $500,000+ in debt and will spend your entire life working in a corporation paying it off. The dental ship has sailed. You have been warned.

I think it would better if you and other people who thought like you just gave up and dropped out of the profession. Why don't you quit?
 
I think it would better if you and other people who thought like you just gave up and dropped out of the profession. Why don't you quit?

And at what point do you suggest the degree is not worth pursuing? 500k, no? How about 1mil?

Dental degree, like any investment, should be evaluated by every individual on the grounds of whether it will deliver adequate returns to justify taking on such a huge financial burden.
 
If you have a sound financial plan and know how you will find a job then it can work but it's not a slam dunk like it use to be.
What is a slam dunk now and days? Very few! Lawyers graduate with horrific debt and absolutely very minimal job prospects. All majors are turning into saturated cesspools, at least with Dentistry it shrugs off the people who can't do 8 years in College. After that it takes an entrepreneurial lifestyle to really make good money, that is why I love it, I will be in charge of my own future doing what I love.
 
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That's what I'm telling you. I took a path to get where I am today and I don't know how I would make a path if I got out of school today or even worse 5 years from now. When I was in school if 100 people made a tuition investment of ~$100,000 (less than 2% interest), 98% of them were going to be successful 10 years after graduating. Today, the success rate is much lower and the investment is much higher. Risk/Reward.
I realize that you all are probably still going to go to dental school but if you are taking out more than $300,000 with these interest rates and you aren't walking into a successful practice it's going to be really hard to be successful. Not a risk that I would want to take if I'm starting over. Yes. There will be a need for replacement dentists but 11 dental schools have opened since I got out of school. That is going to change supply and demand tremendously. There is a reason that people with money aren't sending their kids to dental school anymore.
I have read articles that say the same exact thing about every profession lol "There is a reason that people with money aren't sending their kids to (attach med/dental/law) schools anymore"
 
I just want to thank all the dentists that came here to inform us. I really do appreciate it.

I've worked my butt off so that one day I can be a light to dentistry. I can't say that I would turn away from my passion because of debt. However, I made a decision to ONLY apply instate and keep my loans under $250,000. I listen to all advice and I make adjustments accordingly but I will never go into another field because of $$. Do what you love guys but be smart about it. If I have to apply 5 times then I will but I will not be moving out of state to go to d school.

We have to keep our eyes and ears open and be smart about this. Choosing a dental school is also more or less our first business decision. It requires research on where to get the ROI. Never put yourself in a position where you aren't practicing ethically. Most importantly just remember why we chose this path. Keep it about the patients and your commitment to your community. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I feel like if we stay smart about where we shell out our money and not be afraid to commute out of the city then we will be okay.
 
I just want to thank all the dentists that came here to inform us. I really do appreciate it.

I've worked my butt off so that one day I can be a light to dentistry. I can't say that I would turn away from my passion because of debt. However, I made a decision to ONLY apply instate and keep my loans under $250,000. I listen to all advice and I make adjustments accordingly but I will never go into another field because of $$. Do what you love guys but be smart about it. If I have to apply 5 times then I will but I will not be moving out of state to go to d school.

We have to keep our eyes and ears open and be smart about this. Choosing a dental school is also more or less our first business decision. It requires research on where to get the ROI. Never put yourself in a position where you aren't practicing ethically. Most importantly just remember why we chose this path. Keep it about the patients and your commitment to your community. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I feel like if we stay smart about where we shell out our money and not be afraid to commute out of the city then we will be okay.

Not saying you will not get in to your state school on the first try. Why not apply to other state schools that offer in-state tuition after a year? There is still a difference of around 30-40k, but it is also one year of your life as a dentist.
 
Not saying you will not get in to your state school on the first try. Why not apply to other state schools that offer in-state tuition after a year? There is still a difference of around 30-40k, but it is also one year of your life as a dentist.
I have other reasons why I decided on instate only. It's much harder for me to move out of state than for a traditional student.
 
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I've worked my butt off so that one day I can be a light to dentistry. I can't say that I would turn away from my passion because of debt. However, I made a decision to ONLY apply instate and keep my loans under $250,000. I listen to all advice and I make adjustments accordingly but I will never go into another field because of $$. Do what you love guys but be smart about it. If I have to apply 5 times then I will but I will not be moving out of state to go to d school.

Being risk averse can also be risky. Say you don't get into your state school your first time and have to wait an additional year to apply. That is one year of lost income (assuming you are a traditional student with little income potential during a gap year). For many students this may mean additional schooling to become more competitive, which is further debt on top of lost income.

People often make the mistake of assuming that one year of lost income means only missing out on an associate's salary: it does not.

Is it one year lost at the beginning or the end of your career? You said that you would be willing to wait 5 years to go to your states school, but that is a significant amount of lost earning potential. Well, it's a lost year of your total career's average income (not the beginning, middle, or the end, but one year from 30+ you can/will practice). More importantly though, it's one less year of savings which could go towards an IRA / 401k. Money you earn later is inflated (meaning money you earn now is more valuable) and this works to your advantage in several ways. First, the older your investments, the better off you will be thanks to compound interest. Also, the older your student loan debt, the less burden it will be (student loan debt becomes less painful with time thanks to inflation).

There is a cost to delaying your education too. It may be worth it for some, especially if you have high enough earning potential to offset the cost of delaying a dental education. But when you are worried about $400k in student loans, and you sacrifice $200k in lost income (averaged over your entire career, it will actually be much higher in all likelihood) to miss out on 1 year of dental school to go to a dental school which saves you only $100k or $150k, then that doesn't make much financial sense.

I think of markets like lanes on the freeway. People are eager to get out of their lane when it begins moving slowly, then get frustrated when they move to a new lane and find the one they were in previously has suddenly started moving again. Studies on traffic flow have shown that you are better off picking a lane and sticking with it. The same can be said for stocks and careers. There are simply too many confounding variables which we can't account for to say with any certainty whether dentistry will ever recover again. Pick your lane and stick with it. Try not to worry too much about the cost, but do your best to reduce your loans.

Given the choice to delay one year or go to a private school for an extra $200k, I would personally take the private school option. I know that student loan debt compounds as well, but something many folks here don't consider is the fact that most financially savvy investors don't pay back loans which have a lower interest rate than they would get back from investing the money instead. Stocks averaging 7%? Invest in the market and pay the minimum balance on your student loan debt which is at 5-6%. I understand people's aversion to debt / risk, but balancing debt and taking appropriate risks is what makes so many great businessmen, well.... great.
 
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I just want to thank all the dentists that came here to inform us. I really do appreciate it.

I've worked my butt off so that one day I can be a light to dentistry. I can't say that I would turn away from my passion because of debt. However, I made a decision to ONLY apply instate and keep my loans under $250,000. I listen to all advice and I make adjustments accordingly but I will never go into another field because of $$. Do what you love guys but be smart about it. If I have to apply 5 times then I will but I will not be moving out of state to go to d school.

We have to keep our eyes and ears open and be smart about this. Choosing a dental school is also more or less our first business decision. It requires research on where to get the ROI. Never put yourself in a position where you aren't practicing ethically. Most importantly just remember why we chose this path. Keep it about the patients and your commitment to your community. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I feel like if we stay smart about where we shell out our money and not be afraid to commute out of the city then we will be okay.
@Incis0r is that you?
 
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??? No. Anyways, I understand where you are coming from. Every year not in d school is another year not making income. Sometimes it is best to go out of state than to waste time and money. In my particular situation I'm not sure if that's going to be okay but for other people yeah. I whole heartedly agree. Just be careful.
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, @Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.
You sir, make me super happy with all of these number of yours.

Will you do my tax?
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.

You Texas people should have your own subforum. What if your state only has one school? What if it costs more than 250k? What if you don't get in the second time around?

Telling people to only apply to their state school would only work in Texas. For other states, we might as well tell people to forget it, as they would not be able to limit their loans to 250k.
 
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Telling people to only apply to their state school would only work in Texas. For other states, we might as well tell people to forget it, as they would not be able to limit their loans to 250k.

Actually it works even better in Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, and Puerto Rico. And almost as well in Georgia and Connecticut.
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, @Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.

It is not really 150k when you compare $276,000 and $552,000. You have consider the after tax salary because it is the after tax salary that will be used to pay for the loan. So you will save more than just $126,000.

Every dollar you borrow you gotta pay 6.8% interest on it per year and you gotta pay it back with after tax dollars.

Don't forget you can work during the gap year too
 
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*Gasp* How did you know that's me?! Shh don't tell anyone. Double accounts aren't allowed on SDN and I might get banned.

Seriously, this made me smile. I feel like I'm actually making an impression on SDNers now :D.Now whether that's a good impression or a bad one....that's a separate topic.

Truth be told, you SDNers are pretty amazing. I have had multiple people PM me and talk to me about financing dental school ever since I made my views on it clear, and I like seeing all the different perspectives on this.
 
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You Texas people should have your own subforum. What if your state only has one school? What if it costs more than 250k? What if you don't get in the second time around?

Telling people to only apply to their state school would only work in Texas. For other states, we might as well tell people to forget it, as they would not be able to limit their loans to 250k.

We basically do, the TMDSAS threads. But like @strep mutans posted, these numbers can be tweaked and workout fairly similar in other states or at schools that allow instate tuition to OOS applicants, like uconn. I'm not necessarily recommending this approach, just laying out the numbers to contrast @Cello 's post about not taking a gap year and picking the private school. I think best approach would be to apply to your instate school/s AND schools that allow instate tuition for OOS students.

It is not really 150k when you compare $276,000 and $552,000. You have consider the after tax salary because it is the after tax salary that will be used to pay for the loan. So you will save more than just $126,000.

Every dollar you borrow you gotta pay 6.8% interest on it per year and you gotta pay it back with after tax dollars.

Don't forget you can work during the gap year too
Oh, definitely. My numbers are basically worst case savings. You'd probably save more because of several factors. After tax take home isn't actually $150k, you probably won't make $150k to begin with, your tuition might actually be less than $200k (Texas), your private school might end up more than $400k, I didn't add accrued interest for D1-D4, etc. And yep, didn't even consider that it wouldn't be a complete lose of income in the gap year if you had a job.
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, @Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.

1. Why are you only taking your first year as a dentist into account? You are losing one year of your entire career, not from the beginning or the end, one year from your overall career total income.

2. Also, as I said above, student loan interest is less than what you earn on interest in the market through 401k / IRA for example. Why would you pay more than the minimum on your student loan amount when the interest is less than you stand to gain by investing the same money in an index fund?

3. As I said earlier, it depends upon many variables. Can you make decent money if you wait a year? Maybe it would be worth it to wait then. How much do you stand to save? It is far more complicated than just to say that you can wait indefinitely until you get into your state school.
 
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1. Why are you only taking your first year as a dentist into account? You are losing one year of your entire career, not from the beginning or the end, one year from your overall career total income.

2. Also, as I said above, student loan interest is less than what you earn on interest in the market through 401k / IRA for example. Why would you pay more than the minimum on your student loan amount when the interest is less than you stand to gain by investing the same money in an index fund?

3. As I said earlier, it depends upon many variables. Can you make decent money if you wait a year? Maybe it would be worth it to wait then. How much do you stand to save? It is far more complicated than just to say that you can wait indefinitely until you get into your state school.
Because I'm already making huge sweeping guesstimates on tuition and payoff lengths. To try and make a guesstimate on lost earnings over the course of an entire career based on lost income in year 1 wouldn't be useful or even remotely accurate. Do you go in to private practice? Do you associate the rest of your life? Scratch start? How old are you now? How long do you plan to practice? How long did you associate before you bought a practice? Is your practice doing well?

My scenario had less variables to work with, that's all. And like I said in my last post, I'm not so much recommending this or trying to contradict your advice as much as I am trying to give an alternate example. Ultimately everyone's situation is going to be different, obviously.

These threads basically boil down to: Yo, the debt is real, be careful, crunch the numbers, understand the risk, have a plan. :)

EDIT: Doh! I started replying after only reading number 1. We're basically saying the same thing. There's lots of variables.
 
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I don't know if choosing a private school is worth it versus waiting a year for instate... You have to factor in interest. That 1st year of lost associate pay (assuming you're not doing a startup or buying a practice) might be ~$90k-$150k. Let's be real generous and say $150k.

You go to a private school and rack up $400k in loans at an average of 6.8%. That's $4,600/month for 10 years, total of $552,000 paid after 10 years and that's not including interest that accrued while you were in school.

OR

You wait a year so you're theoretically "in the hole" $150k in lost wages. BUT, @Jbrowndds goes to a Texas school and takes out $200k in loans. That's $2300/month for 10 years for a total paid of $276,000. $426,000 if you include the lost wages.

$126,000 saved by waiting a year and going instate.

Stretch all those loans out to 25 years and you're looking at $266,000 saved.

Except you didn't factor in future dollars of investment money from earning money a year or two earlier and that is where it really makes a difference, when you retire, not the first 10 years.
 
Except you didn't factor in future dollars of investment money from earning money a year or two earlier and that is where it really makes a difference, when you retire, not the first 10 years.

It's an interesting point you made, and you are correct in that money invested now will play a large role in the future. That's why the Rule of 72 is so amazing.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would argue that the money you save by taking a gap year and going to a significantly cheaper state school ($126k as @EasTexan put it) will more than counteract the benefit of an extra year of wages, even after interest.

Here's my reasoning: 1) You're in less debt. 2) Loans are at 7% right now....so by not taking out those loans, you are paying yourself a guaranteed 7%. Where in the market can I get a guaranteed 7% right now? My investment fund is returning an average of 9% per year, but that is an average over time. One year it returns 12%. Another only 5%. If there is a crash tomorrow, it'll return even less. Not reliable for short-term at all!

In light of these considerations, I think that it is a solid decision to wait a year and save $126K + the 7% interest on that, guaranteed.
 
It's an interesting point you made, and you are correct in that money invested now will play a large role in the future. That's why the Rule of 72 is so amazing.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would argue that the money you save by taking a gap year and going to a significantly cheaper state school ($126k as @EasTexan put it) will more than counteract the benefit of an extra year of wages, even after interest.

Here's my reasoning: 1) You're in less debt. 2) Loans are at 7% right now....so by not taking out those loans, you are paying yourself a guaranteed 7%. Where in the market can I get a guaranteed 7% right now? My investment fund is returning an average of 9% per year, but that is an average over time. One year it returns 12%. Another only 5%. If there is a crash tomorrow, it'll return even less. Not reliable for short-term at all!

In light of these considerations, I think that it is a solid decision to wait a year and save $126K + the 7% interest on that, guaranteed.
You better be careful though, markets are on a tightrope and that crash could occur tomorrow
 
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