Don't go to Dental School

[Big Time Hoosier]

My brother is a sales rep for a dental product company. He probably makes more money than many, if not most, of the GPs he takes care of. Oh, and he doesn’t typically leave his house until 9:00-10:00 am and probably wraps up by 4:00 pm. And, he’s always winning free trips from his company to places like France and Mexico because he’s good at what he does. Meanwhile, I’m applying SDF to a screaming 2 year old…

Big Hoss

With the professional route I chose, thanks to taking the HPSP, I get a free meal at IHOP on Veterans Day. So, I guess I’ve got that going for me…

Big Hoss

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[charlestweed]

My brother is a sales rep for a dental product company. He probably makes more money than many, if not most, of the GPs he takes care of. Oh, and he doesn’t typically leave his house until 9:00-10:00 am and probably wraps up by 4:00 pm. And, he’s always winning free trips from his company to places like France and Mexico because he’s good at what he does. Meanwhile, I’m applying SDF to a screaming 2 year old…

Big Hoss

That's his reward for having great people/sale skills, which many of us, dentists, don't have. The same can be said about other sale jobs like real estate broker, insurance broker, car salesman etc. The more you sell, the higher your income will be. And the less you sell, the higher chance your job will be taken away by another more capable person.

 

[Thehighwind87]

The UPS driver has time and compound interest on their side as well. Slog it out as a UPS driver from 22-32 investing heavily and you’re sitting okay.
Dentistry is really looking like a raw deal these days. The delayed gratification is so much and when you graduate you have to be ready to continue to live poor.

Most medical professionals and dentists - don’t understand compound interest, finances, cash flow etc, that’s why they end up in these situations.

Some of the dumbest financial people I’ve met are in the healthcare community.

Regardless I think the higher education bubble is bursting. Middle management, and worthless college degrees are being realized for what it is. Blue collar work and trade schools are being seen as needed, necessary and rewarded as such. Had to call an electrician to replace a socket. Cost me 500$ and they were in and out of the house 20 minutes and fully booked for weeks.

Plumber cost me 1k booked out weeks and charged 350$ for “examining it” 750 for fixing it.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Regardless I think the higher education bubble is bursting. Middle management, and worthless college degrees are being realized for what it is.

Big Hoss

 

[Thehighwind87]

View attachment 375595

Big Hoss

I mean if there are still people lining up for philosophy degrees for 100k… to end up working at Starbucks for 20$ an hour… we’ll then maybe dentistry ain’t that bad.

Regardless sometimes I wonder what peoples thought process is still.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Regardless sometimes I wonder what peoples thought process is still.

They’re just thinking the government will save them from the bad consequences of their terrible life choices. There will be millions of people literally taking to the streets the day the bond market collapses and no one wants to buy Uncle Sam’s debt anymore. At that point, you better be prepared to live out Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome…

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

Most medical professionals and dentists - don’t understand compound interest, finances, cash flow etc, that’s why they end up in these situations.

Some of the dumbest financial people I’ve met are in the healthcare community.

The problem is most people spend instead of saving and investing. They tend to think more about the presence than about the future. The more money they make the more they spend. It’s called lifestyle creep. More than 50% of the people, who make over $100k, say they are living paycheck to paycheck.

Regardless I think the higher education bubble is bursting. Middle management, and worthless college degrees are being realized for what it is. Blue collar work and trade schools are being seen as needed, necessary and rewarded as such. Had to call an electrician to replace a socket. Cost me 500$ and they were in and out of the house 20 minutes and fully booked for weeks.

Plumber cost me 1k booked out weeks and charged 350$ for “examining it” 750 for fixing it.

You got ripped off. There are plenty of plumbers, electricians, and handymen who are hungry for work here in So Cal. It’s super saturated here. The company that I hire to manage my properties usually picks the cheapest repairmen to fix things for my tenants. The company knows a lot of guys. The average cost for each small repair is around $100-200. Many of the self employed Asian and Mexican plumbers and electricians usually charge much less….don’t call the big companies.

You can learn a lot of things from youtube. It's actually fun to fix and install things around the house yourself.

 

[charlestweed]

I mean if there are still people lining up for philosophy degrees for 100k… to end up working at Starbucks for 20$ an hour… we’ll then maybe dentistry ain’t that bad.

Regardless sometimes I wonder what peoples thought process is still.

Most of these people are young 17-18 yo HS kids. They don't listen to their parents. Many parents actually support their decisions. They want to go to expensive private "famous" universities in different states because these are where all of their smart HS classmates get the acceptances. They don't want to be laughed at (or looked down upon) for attending a "dumb" no name public university near their house. They want a "college experience." And that's why the total student loan debt has risen to 1.7 trillion.

And when the parents, especially the Asian parents, suggested a safer field (ie engineering, nursing, dental hygiene, PA, dentistry, or medicine), they felt they were coerced. They want to do what they like.....and to them, money/income is not important.

I couldn't even convince my son to attend a UC school near my house. He picked UCLA instead......because it has a football team. I would save $70k (for 4 years), if my son went to a nearby UC and lived at home with us. Well, at least he has done very well in school so far.

 

[Thehighwind87]

The problem is most people spend instead of saving and investing. They tend to think more about the presence than about the future. The more money they make the more they spend. It’s called lifestyle creep. More than 50% of the people, who make over $100k, say they are living paycheck to paycheck.

You got ripped off. There are plenty of plumbers, electricians, and handymen who are hungry for work here in So Cal. It’s super saturated here. The company that I hire to manage my properties usually picks the cheapest repairmen to fix things for my tenants. The company knows a lot of guys. The average cost for each small repair is around $100-200. Many of the self employed Asian and Mexican plumbers and electricians usually charge much less….don’t call the big companies.

You can learn a lot of things from youtube. It's actually fun to fix and install things around the house yourself.

I don’t think SoCal is a good representation of anything. Dentists over there for pennies on the dollar and so on.

 

[macsak]

Most of these people are young 17-18 yo HS kids. They don't listen to their parents. They want to go to expensive private "famous" universities in different states because these are where all of their smart HS classmates get the acceptances. They don't want to be laughed at (or looked down upon) for attending "dumb" no name public universities near their houses. They want a "college experience." And that's why the total student loan debt has risen to 1.7 trillion.

I couldn't even convince my son to attend a UC school near my house. He picked UCLA instead......because it has a football team. I would have saved $70k, if my son went to a nearby UC and lived at home with us. Well, at least he has done very well in school so far.

is he gonna be a dentite?

 

[charlestweed]

I don’t think SoCal is a good representation of anything. Dentists over there for pennies on the dollar and so on.

It's true that it's more expensive to live in CA....but not a lot more. People in CA buy smaller housesand condos because of high home prices here. People in other states buy bigger houses with bigger land and pay almost the same prices as what people in CA pay for theirs. Car, food, insurances etc cost about the same everywhere. People in other states tend to travel and go out more often to keep themselves entertained. States that have zero state income taxes levy much higher property taxes. A lot of callers on the Dave Ramsey's show are not from CA. They make a lot and they are still living paycheck to paycheck. They all have the same sets of problems: living on more than what they make, huge credit card debt, huge student loans (for useless degrees), huge car payments, and have no written budget.

 

[charlestweed]

is he gonna be a dentite?

He is a premed. Dentistry is his backup plan in case he doesn't get into med school. Since he won't have any student loan debt, he will be fine with either career option. He won't have to work hard like me and or like my parents. As long as he can support himself after I am gone, I am happy.

 

[Thehighwind87]

It's true that it's more expensive to live in CA....but not a lot more. People in CA buy smaller housesand condos because of high home prices here. People in other states buy bigger houses with bigger land and pay almost the same prices as what people in CA pay for theirs. Car, food, insurances etc cost about the same everywhere. People in other states tend to travel and go out more often to keep themselves entertained. States that have zero state income taxes levy much higher property taxes. A lot of callers on the Dave Ramsey's show are not from CA. They make a lot and they are still living paycheck to paycheck. They all have the same sets of problems: living on more than what they make, huge credit card debt, huge student loans (for useless degrees), huge car payments, and have no written budget.

At least in other states you have a chance to get ahead of the curve on debt and financial freedom. In california you are locked into debt and never getting ahead.

Know many friends who stayed in california pharmacists engineers dentists doctors- went to undergrad and grad in california. It doesn’t surprise me to see some of those friends living with parents or renting still etc. one of my best friends engineer at a decent firm still living at home with the parents, just doesn’t wanna leave california no matter how much I tell him to leave. I don’t get what california has over some people- especially if you are not making a livable wage.

yes there are a few doing well but regardless, getting out of california and giving yourself a fighting chance to build wealth was the best decision I’ve ever made. And these friends of mine are all good with finances, they aren’t the people from dam Ramsey calling in with credit card debt. Bay Area is 1 mil for a starter junk home with a 7-10k mortgage on 20% down payment…. Like what’s the point. They could easily do well in Texas.

Not even a new grad dentist can make it work with todays debt, practice loan, and cost of living.. but somehow you have dentists trying to make it work. Zzz

Highest cost of living and poor salary. Not a good combo

 

[charlestweed]

At least in other states you have a chance to get ahead of the curve on debt and financial freedom. In california you are locked into debt and never getting ahead.

I agree. But to get ahead, one still has to have a written budget and control oneself not to spend over that written budget. This is not an easy thing to do. If you ask many of the student loan borrowers what they have done with the “extra” money that they have had during the Biden’s 2-3 year interest/repayment freeze period, I think most of them would answer that they have spent it all instead of investing or trying to reduce the loan principal.

Know many friends who stayed in california pharmacists engineers dentists doctors- went to undergrad and grad in california. It doesn’t surprise me to see some of those friends living with parents or renting still etc. one of my best friends engineer at a decent firm still living at home with the parents, just doesn’t wanna leave california no matter how much I tell him to leave. I don’t get what california has over some people- especially if you are not making a livable wage.

Your best friend is smart. I would do the same if I were single and had no kid….free mom’s meals, free rent…no need to impress anyone….and save for a future house and retirement. Most Asian parents don’t mind. They actually love to have their adult children to stay with them. My sister (her husband and 2 kids) had lived in our parents’ house for 3 years….free childcare while she worked 7 days/wk (3 days at her own office and 4 days for the corp). My sister then moved out and bought her first house for $800k….and paid it off within 3 years. My wife’s best friend is an endodontist. She had also lived with her mom until she got married (at the age of 49). She and her husband now live in their $3+ million house, which was paid in full.

I don’t get what california has over some people- especially if you are not making a livable wage.

Being close to friends and relatives. Nice weather 365 days/year. Many great theme parks. Ethnic diversity. Good food, good restaurants. In-n-out burgers etc.

yes there are a few doing well but regardless, getting out of california and giving yourself a fighting chance to build wealth was the best decision I’ve ever made. And these friends of mine are all good with finances, they aren’t the people from dam Ramsey calling in with credit card debt. Bay Area is 1 mil for a starter junk home with a 7-10k mortgage on 20% down payment…. Like what’s the point. They could easily do well in Texas.

Not even a new grad dentist can make it work with todays debt, practice loan, and cost of living.. but somehow you have dentists trying to make it work. Zzz

Highest cost of living and poor salary. Not a good combo

Not everything is bad here in CA. It's a good state to invest in real estate, if you have money. Home prices go up much faster here than in other states. It’s also easier to find tenants to rent out your properties here in CA. Just put in 20-30% for down payment…..your tenants help pay the mortgage/property taxes….and 30 years later, you’ll have 100% ownership of the property. The value of your invested property will double, triple, or quadruple 30 years from now. My cousin bought a property in Arizona and another one in New Mexico. According to him, both of these investments were a mistake.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I agree. But to get ahead, one still has to have a written budget and control oneself not to spend over that written budget. This is not an easy thing to do. If you ask many of the student loan borrowers what they have done with the “extra” money that they have had during the Biden’s 2-3 year interest/repayment freeze period, I think most of them would answer that they have spent it all instead of investing or trying to reduce the loan principal.

Your best friend is smart. I would do the same if I were single and had no kid….free mom’s meals, free rent…no need to impress anyone….and save for a future house and retirement. Most Asian parents don’t mind. They actually love to have their adult children to stay with them. My sister (her husband and 2 kids) had lived in our parents’ house for 3 years….free childcare while she worked 7 days/wk (3 days at her own office and 4 days for the corp). My sister then moved out and bought her first house for $800k….and paid it off within 3 years. My wife’s best friend is an endodontist. She had also lived with her mom until she got married (at the age of 49). She and her husband now live in their $3+ million house, which was paid in full.

Being close to friends and relatives. Nice weather 365 days/year. Many great theme parks. Ethnic diversity. Good food, good restaurants. In-n-out burgers etc.

Not everything is bad here in CA. It's a good state to invest in real estate, if you have money. Home prices go up much faster here than in other states. It’s also easier to find tenants to rent out your properties here in CA. Just put in 20-30% for down payment…..your tenants help pay the mortgage/property taxes….and 30 years later, you’ll have 100% ownership of the property. The value of your invested property will double, triple, or quadruple 30 years from now. My cousin bought a property in Arizona and another one in New Mexico. According to him, both of these investments were a mistake.

I think you missed the point of my best friend commentary.

I get what you are coming from- I really do ( I was one of those Asians living at home in california paying off loans saving rent living with my mom) but there is a difference between living at home temporarily to save up for a house pay down loans versus living at home because you can’t afford anything in the local economy. When I realized it was just to hard to make it work, I got out of california- and getting out of ca was one of the best decisions of my life imo. If you can’t understand that then you are out of touch.

There are tons of people living in that condition because of unaffordability. Not due to cuz they want to save up into their 35-40s

 

[charlestweed]

I think you missed the point of my best friend commentary.

I get what you are coming from- I really do ( I was one of those Asians living at home in california paying off loans saving rent living with my mom) but there is a difference between living at home temporarily to save up for a house pay down loans versus living at home because you can’t afford anything in the local economy. When I realized it was just to hard to make it work, I got out of california- and getting out of ca was one of the best decisions of my life imo. If you can’t understand that then you are out of touch.

There are tons of people living in that condition because of unaffordability. Not due to cuz they want to save up into their 35-40s

You can make it work anywhere in America if you make a budget and manage your hard earned money carefully. I know plenty of Asian immigrants who came to this country with nothing and bought a house (multiple houses) within a few years. My dad bought a house in 1989 (he and I came to the US in 1986) for $134k with his $6.25/hr salary (or around $800/month post tax). He and I lived in 1 bedroom and we rented out the other 3 bedrooms to 3 different strangers. When my mother and 2 younger siblings reunited with us (thanks to the generosity of the US government) in 1991, we all lived in a converted garage and rented out all 4 bedrooms to 4 different tenants. The handyman, who helps fix my rental properties, bought his first house for $550k and he has only been in this country for 15 years. He doesn’t have any construction license. He’s around my age and he works 6-7 days/wk. He’s happy because he would never be able to afford to have a house of his own if he was still in his home country.....and 2 kids get to grow up in the greatest country in the world.

When the cost of living is too high, you either have to work harder (more hours) to increase your income or cut down on the spending (on stupid things), or do both. Gotta have a written budget. You can’t spend more than what you make. Many of my Asian dentist/dental specialist friends worked 5+ days/wk right after graduation. When they started their own office, they didn’t quit their associate job at the corp and continued to work there to supplement their incomes. None of them spent crazy amount of money, like $500-600k, to build their offices. One of them started his business at an abandoned dental office and he only spent $25k for used chairs and other equipment. This wasn't because he's a smart business person.....high living cost in CA and debt (he graduated from USC) forced him to open a small and cheap office. I only spent $65k (actually only $55k because the landlord gave me back $10k) to convert a medical office to an ortho office….this was in 2018, not 20-30 yrs ago.

It’s good that you find a good place to live and to set up your office. CA is an ideal place for me and for many Asian dentists. It’s more ethnically diverse here. All of my referring GPs are non-White. I love treating Hispanic (60% of them) and Asian (30% of them) patients. It’s also easier for me to find staff because we have a surplus of ortho assistants here in CA as well. I did my ortho residency in Kentucky and people (Chair, director, instructors, staff, and patients etc) over there were very friendly to me. But I didn’t think it’s a good place to set up my practice and therefore, I moved back home in CA to find work. When I was in KY, I met a Vietnamese MD doctor who had his own medical clinic there….his daughter was my ortho patient. I later learned from another friend that the doc had to close his practice due to lack of patients.

 

[CharlestonToothCompany]

..., I got out of california- and getting out of ca was one of the best decisions of my life imo. If you can’t understand that then you are out of touch.

You hit the nail in the head. I left NYC after college and moved to South Carolina because I was broke in NY and my parents moved to SC. It was horrible in my eyes. But I got older and went to dental school. And then started to raise a family. It is a good place. I am no sooooo glad I left that place. I have only been back three times, once for a GPR 2001-02 ( and that was enough to cure me of any lingering thoughts I had.), and two visits in 2016 and 2018 (both of those times my wife dragged me kicking and screaming!).

Those who haven’t just don’t understand. Unfortunately, many of them are waking up and overcrowding the good states and driving up the real estate prices as well as bringing some of their “views” with them.

 

[Thehighwind87]

You hit the nail in the head. I left NYC after college and moved to South Carolina because I was broke in NY and my parents moved to SC. It was horrible in my eyes. But I got older and went to dental school. And then started to raise a family. It is a good place. I am no sooooo glad I left that place. I have only been back three times, once for a GPR 2001-02 ( and that was enough to cure me of any lingering thoughts I had.), and two visits in 2016 and 2018 (both of those times my wife dragged me kicking and screaming!).

Those who haven’t just don’t understand. Unfortunately, many of them are waking up and overcrowding the good states and driving up the real estate prices as well as bringing some of their “views” with them.

It's all about quality of life man. I can raise a family here, fully max out my 401k, invest in my personal brokerage, and have enough left over to take a family vacation while not worrying about breaking the piggy bank. In addition, I can live in a quiet suberb with a front yard back yard, and have the kids run out in the culdersack and have fun. -Aka the perfect upper middle class lifestyle.

Hell I'm even searching to buy the right lake house in a nice area right now. Do you know how fithy rich one has to be to buy a waterfront/lakehouse in a decent area in CA? Fithy rich. Like multimillionaire rich.

I can't imagine today's standards in 2023 buying some fixer upper junk in a questionable neighborhood with no front yard back yard....putting all your money into the house mortgage and having nothing left over- while raising a family.

Charles comes from a different time and generation. Before real estate was expensive in California. I'm not saying anything bad about Charles. I'm happy that he has a few rental properties and a nice house in San Diego (that alone puts him in the multimillion dollar status)- but let's get real- that is not attainable in today's standards- especially some new grad with 500k of student loans. If anything those standards were attained years ago before everything because overpriced and expensive. That's the whole point of moving out of California or NYC or those high cost of living areas. It just doesn't make ANY sense financially TODAY. Period.

 

[D1Bound]

we all have had insane patients. Why would I want to be near all of those crazy people in the city? I want some land to get AWAY from all those people. The city is always there to visit. Live? No thank you

 

[charlestweed]

People view quality of life differently. Some think they don’t have good quality of life when they have to live far away from friends/relatives, when they have to miss many of the fun things that can only be found in big cities, when they have to eat American food everyday because of the lack of authentic Asian grocery supermakets/restaurants in their state, when they have to live in a cold snowy weather state, or when they suffer from a severe allergy due to the pollen in the air etc. So they don’t mind working harder so they can afford to live in a more expensive state. Some prefer the opposite. They prefer living in a rural area because everything is cheaper…less bills to pay = a less stressful lifestyle…..and they can save more for their retirement.

Life is a series of tradeoffs. You have to give up something in order to gain something. If you want to live in CA, you have to live in a much smaller house….or worse, you have to share it with another roommate….and you also have to work harder. If you want a bigger house with big front and back yards and don’t want to work too hard to pay for this house, you have to move to another state. You can’t have or do it all.

 

[Thehighwind87]

People view quality of life differently. Some think they don’t have good quality of life when they have to live far away from friends/relatives, when they have to miss many of the fun things that can only be found in big cities, when they have to eat American food everyday because of the lack of authentic Asian grocery supermakets/restaurants in their state, when they have to live in a cold snowy weather state, or when they suffer from a severe allergy due to the pollen in the air etc. So they don’t mind working harder so they can afford to live in a more expensive state. Some prefer the opposite. They prefer living in a rural area because everything is cheaper…less bills to pay = a less stressful lifestyle…..and they can save more for their retirement.

Life is a series of tradeoffs. You have to give up something in order to gain something. If you want to live in CA, you have to live in a much smaller house….or worse, you have to share it with another roommate….and you also have to work harder. If you want a bigger house with big front and back yards and don’t want to work too hard to pay for this house, you have to move to another state. You can’t have or do it all.

100% truth. And that is exactly why I moved out of CA

 

[askadds]

The vast majority of the salaries have increased significantly but they are still nowhere near the dentist’s 200+k/year salary. In 2010, I paid my manager $35k/yr. Now, my manager makes $55k/yr and she’s still living paycheck to paycheck. Rents and home prices in CA have gone up significantly in recent years. Many have to leave CA for more affordable housing and lower cost of living.

I know $200k salary working as a dentist is not much if one has $500+k student loan debt and is the only person who works in the family. Both husband and wife have to work, especially now when everything is much more expensive. I think dentistry is still a good field if you have parents who help pay for a portion (ie housing and food) of the total cost of education. A lot of dental students say the majority of their dental classmates have parents who help them do that. I wouldn’t recommend dentistry to anyone who think that dentistry is an easy highly paid job and he can just work 4 days/wk after graduation.

You are really a confused dentist...this complacency is the reason we are already in the doomed phase. Your buying power for services rendered have been cut in half, what will you say in another decade? LOL How can you say your manager went from 35k to 55k (ps everyone else has seen an inflation adjusted increase in the last decade except for dentists) but hey I at least make 250k still". If you cant figure out why this is so wrong, I really don't have much else to add.

 

[askadds]

CPI Inflation Calculator

250k income in 2010 is equivalent to 352k buying power in 2023. Guess what, we were making 250k as owners will good practices in 2010 and today we are still making the same.

Please be part of the solution and not adding the problem of accepting 250k and saying I still make good money. That's the mistakes WE made and reason of the problems today.

 

[Thehighwind87]

The only way I offset inflation is by investing otherwise I would be a sad dentist. And now I get 5% risk free in treasuries and money markets. On 1 mil of savings that's 50k risk free. Not to shabby.

 

[Thehighwind87]

CPI Inflation Calculator

250k income in 2010 is equivalent to 352k buying power in 2023. Guess what, we were making 250k as owners will good practices in 2010 and today we are still making the same.

Please be part of the solution and not adding the problem of accepting 250k and saying I still make good money. That's the mistakes WE made and reason of the problems today.

https://www.ada.org/-/media/project/ada-organization/ada/ada-org/files/resources/research/hpi/net_income_general_practitioner_dentists_2022.pdf?rev=cc58b9ecfbaf4e37bdb243eed848111c&hash=E354C6B2E7E06A270E7ED166408B6E28

This is the real chart everyone should be looking at. If you think the trend will change....then you are sorely mistaken. Income will continue to drop while cost of living/inflation goes up. Eventually dentists will be making chump change compared to your UPS driver making 170k with ZERO debt.

 

[charlestweed]

You are really a confused dentist...this complacency is the reason we are already in the doomed phase. Your buying power for services rendered have been cut in half, what will you say in another decade? LOL How can you say your manager went from 35k to 55k (ps everyone else has seen an inflation adjusted increase in the last decade except for dentists) but hey I at least make 250k still". If you cant figure out why this is so wrong, I really don't have much else to add.

Nope, I don’t find anything wrong with my earlier statement. Yes, we make less than what we used to make 10 years ago...and continue to be like this for the next 10 years. Despite the decline in dental income and the rise in inflation rate, we, dentists, still earn very nice income in comparison to other professions. That’s why dental schools (and medical schools as well) remain very difficult to get in….. it's due to the high volume of applicants every year.

People, who quit their current jobs to go back to school for dentistry, are not stupid. They know that their jobs will be gone in the future. Dentistry offers them job stability. You have to work/experience other jobs in order to realize how lucky we, dentists, are. Growing up in a low income immigrant family and working 2 low wage jobs (during my HS/college years) make me more appreciative of the job that I currently have. The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[charlestweed]

The only way I offset inflation is by investing otherwise I would be a sad dentist. And now I get 5% risk free in treasuries and money markets. On 1 mil of savings that's 50k risk free. Not to shabby.

At least we, dentists, make good enough income that allows us to have some extra cash to invest….and earn nice profit to offset the inflation. Many can't do this because they are living paycheck to paycheck and on credit cards. I pay my office manager $55k/year. She is 57 yo, single (her adult son already moved out) and doesn’t have to support anyone. I’ve often had to loan her the money in advance and then I deducted $50-100 from each of her paychecks. This is better than going to a payday advance place, where they charge her an outrageous amount of interest.

A message to the youngsters: forget about YOLO. Work hard and invest as much as you can when you are still young and healthy. You will thank yourself later…..when you are in your 40s and 50s.

 

[Thehighwind87]

At least we, dentists, make good enough income that allows us to have some extra cash to invest….and earn nice profit to offset the inflation. Many can't do this because they are living paycheck to paycheck and on credit cards. I pay my office manager $55k/year. She is 57 yo, single (her adult son already moved out) and doesn’t have to support anyone. I’ve often had to loan her the money in advance and then I deducted $50-100 from each of her paycheck. This is better than going to a payday advance place, where they charge her an outrageous amount of interest.

A message to the youngsters: forget about YOLO. Work hard and invest as much as you can when you are still young and healthy. You will thank yourself later…..when you are in your 40s and 50s.

That plus go to a place where you can afford to invest to offset inflation. Sticking it out in a high cost of living area like NYC/LA etc will let you have nothing left over to invest to offset inflation.

 

[charlestweed]

That plus go to a place where you can afford to invest to offset inflation. Sticking it out in a high cost of living area like NYC/LA etc will let you have nothing left over to invest to offset inflation.

As long as you spend less than what you make, you will always have extra cash to invest, regardless of where you live. In CA, you live in a smaller house and you pay the same mortgage as the people who live in a 4000-5000 sf house in Florida or TX.

My younger brother graduated 15 years after me. He’s 10 years younger than me and he had to do 3 yrs of internal medicine + 3 yrs of GI fellowship after med school. He has bought more properties (here in Orange County, CA) than me. And he bought them at much higher prices than when I bought mine. Being a doctor, he always works and rarely travels. He doesn’t need to because there are plenty of fun things to do here in CA. His 4 kids are still very small. Disneyland is their favorite place and is only 20 minute drive from his Newport Beach house. Travel is not my thing either. Of all the places, where I’ve traveled to, none of them beats my home town in southern California.

My brother moved to Colorado Spring for better pay. But he didn't last there very long. His car was completely destroyed by a hailstorm. Less than 2 years later, he moved back to CA.

 

[Ne Ge]

As long as you spend less than what you make, you will always have extra cash to invest, regardless of where you live. In CA, you live in a smaller house and you pay the same mortgage as the people who live in a 4000-5000 sf house in Florida or TX.

My younger brother graduated 15 years after me. He’s 10 years younger than me and he had to do 3 yrs of internal medicine + 3 yrs of GI fellowship after med school. He has bought more properties (here in Orange County, CA) than me. And he bought them at much higher prices than when I bought mine. Being a doctor, he always works and rarely travels. He doesn’t need to because there are plenty of fun things to do here in CA. His 4 kids are still very small. Disneyland is their favorite place and is only 20 minute drive from his Newport Beach house. Travel is not my thing either. Of all the places, where I’ve traveled to, none of them beats my home town in southern California.

My brother moved to Colorado Spring for better pay. But he didn't last there very long. His car was completely destroyed by a hailstorm. Less than 2 years later, he moved back to CA.

Just curious, when did your brother graduate? What was his total debt from med school, IM & GI residencies? How long did it take him to pay all that off? I know of at least a couple college grads who are at/near the top of their classes who chose dentistry over medicine, strictly because they want to avoid the more intense/pressure environment and debt load of med school. Not that dental school is cheap, far from it. I have some MD relatives who are frustrated and hate the pressure of their work. Maybe because they work in the Kaiser hospitals? I don't know but they hardly ever can take time off for family vacations. Thanks,

 

[dent2394]

strictly because they want to avoid the ... debt load of med school. Not that dental school is cheap, far from it.

Dental school generally costs more than medical school.

 

[Ne Ge]

Dental school generally costs more than medical school.

Yes, I've seen some like that, but most are comparable. All I know (UoP grad) is that many of my professors played golf like every week, while my MD relatives said they didn't recall their professors did. Lol. I don't play golf so never got into that scene, but apparently socializing on the golf course with the profs unofficially helped some of my classmates.

 

[charlestweed]

Just curious, when did your brother graduate? What was his total debt from med school, IM & GI residencies? How long did it take him to pay all that off? I know of at least a couple college grads who are at/near the top of their classes who chose dentistry over medicine, strictly because they want to avoid the more intense/pressure environment and debt load of med school. Not that dental school is cheap, far from it. I have some MD relatives who are frustrated and hate the pressure of their work. Maybe because they work in the Kaiser hospitals? I don't know but they hardly ever can take time off for family vacations. Thanks,

He graduated from med school in 2008 and completed his GI fellowship in 2014. He went to an 8 yr BS/MD program. Because he had some scholarships, he only needed to borrow around $250k. During his 3-yr internal medicine residency and 3-yr GI fellowship training, he moonlighted at several hospitals. Some of these part time hospital jobs paid him close to $100k. During those years, he was still single….in his mid-late 20s and therefore, all he did was worked, worked, and worked. And that’s how he was able to pay most of his student loans off before graduation…..and bought a $600k house while he was still in residency.

Yeah, it’s a tough job. And like many of the dentists on this forum, my brother has also complained about his jobs all the time…..long work hours and the salaries don’t increase like other engineering jobs. And yet, he still wants all of his 4 kids to pursue medicine because other alternative career options are worse. He does think medicine is better than dentistry. I guess the reason he thinks medicine is better is he is currently way ahead financially in comparison to me when I was at his age.

Kaiser actually pays the physicians very well. A lot of physicians want to work for Kaiser despite the hard work. That’s because they offer very nice retirement package if you work for them long enough. And the physicians, who work there, also get other benefits like paid vacations, health insurance, 401k etc.

 

[kashyranz]

actually its an amazing job so I completely disagree with this post. the level of fulfillment you get there isn't a price to put on it. you get to use art, science, and surgery to actually change peoples lives every single day. stop talking smack about this profession if you've never practiced dentistry and swaying students from pursuing their dreams. yes its expensive, but you have the ability to make a lot of money if you are passionate and good at what you do. I made just about 300k my first year after graduation by going rural and paying down debts.

 

[DAT Destroyer]

actually its an amazing job so I completely disagree with this post. the level of fulfillment you get there isn't a price to put on it. you get to use art, science, and surgery to actually change peoples lives every single day. stop talking smack about this profession if you've never practiced dentistry and swaying students from pursuing their dreams. yes its expensive, but you have the ability to make a lot of money if you are passionate and good at what you do. I made just about 300k my first year after graduation by going rural and paying down debts.

Thank you for your post!

 

[kashyranz]

Thank you for your post!

wow I cannot believe it. I actually took Dr. Romanos course for the Destroyer. Thank you so much DOC! YOU HELPED ME ACHEIVE MY DREAMS. I never got to thank you for getting me through the hardest exam of my life! Your resource is a life saver I recommend it to all the pre-dental kids I currently mentor! wow I took the dat September of 2015...8 years ago!

 

[DAT Destroyer]

wow I cannot believe it. I actually took Dr. Romanos course for the Destroyer. Thank you so much DOC! YOU HELPED ME ACHEIVE MY DREAMS. I never got to thank you for getting me through the hardest exam of my life! Your resource is a life saver I recommend it to all the pre-dental kids I currently mentor! wow I took the dat September of 2015...8 years ago!

Dr. Aakash Rana thanks for the shout out and so happy your dreams came true. We are still helping students and thanks for the recommendation, Destroyer is going strong and so am I.
Dr. Jim Romano

 

[ktv24]

wholesome af

 

[CharlestonToothCompany]

actually its an amazing job so I completely disagree with this post. the level of fulfillment you get there isn't a price to put on it. you get to use art, science, and surgery to actually change peoples lives every single day. stop talking smack about this profession if you've never practiced dentistry and swaying students from pursuing their dreams. yes its expensive, but you have the ability to make a lot of money if you are passionate and good at what you do. I made just about 300k my first year after graduation by going rural and paying down debts.

I’m sorry sir, but I graduated dental school in 2001.

Your experience was the norm when I graduated. It no longer is. So, I would say to you to “be kind and don’t lead these poor kids to the slaughter”. Open their eyes. If they still want to go, with eyes wide open, good for them.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I’m sorry sir, but I graduated dental school in 2001.

Your experience was the norm when I graduated. It no longer is. So, I would say to you to “be kind and don’t lead these poor kids to the slaughter”. Open their eyes. If they still want to go, with eyes wide open, good for them.

Do you have a timeline of when you realized "woah" the golden days of dentistry are over?

I graduated back in 2010- and for the most part- I heard the saying "the golden days of dentistry are over" way back in 2010 coming out of school. People used to look at my debt load of 200-300k and be like- dude thats like crazy cuz when I went to school it was 100-150k. Today graduates are coming out with 500k+ loans.

But regardless, what made me change my mind in dentistry was post covid. The inflation issue has really decimated the field. I used to be able to look at my kids and say- I'm going to pass on my practice to them when I retire. But today I look at them and say- I'm going to sell my practice in 5-10 years timeline and kiddos- go do what you want to do- engineering, tech, whatever. But I will not hold out for them because I frankly don't think dentistry is going to be worth it in 10 years timeline.

 

[askadds]

Do you have a timeline of when you realized "woah" the golden days of dentistry are over?

I graduated back in 2010- and for the most part- I heard the saying "the golden days of dentistry are over" way back in 2010 coming out of school. People used to look at my debt load of 200-300k and be like- dude thats like crazy cuz when I went to school it was 100-150k. Today graduates are coming out with 500k+ loans.

But regardless, what made me change my mind in dentistry was post covid. The inflation issue has really decimated the field. I used to be able to look at my kids and say- I'm going to pass on my practice to them when I retire. But today I look at them and say- I'm going to sell my practice in 5-10 years timeline and kiddos- go do what you want to do- engineering, tech, whatever. But I will not hold out for them because I frankly don't think dentistry is going to be worth it in 10 years timeline.

We are already there. They have incentivized aggressive treatment since HYG department is the loser in the practice in an insurance setting, loser = lose money on every patient.

I feel sorry for the new docs being hustled into this profession. I blame the ADA, AEDA, insurance companies, undergrad school advisors who have ZERO idea and obviously dental schools. They have found a group of people with ZERO business sense and they sell you a dream.

All you guys and gals are above average if you get into dental school. When you get into dental school, only 10% max is above average. Thats how dentistry is, you all say "I am gonna come out and work hard and bla bla" LOL, sure. Only the special ones join the 300k club and the ones that go rural, rest can bank on 150k as indicated by averages.

Think twice about your decisions, us practicing docs wasting time on here are just trying to give you guys a dose of reality and if its still worth it to you, by all means go for it.

You may not realize it but we are instilling something inside you that you will benefit from down the road, I guarantee that the ones that are listening will come out of dental school and denounce insurance harder than existing docs who never heard this. You guys reading this and listening will also stand up against the AEDA and the ADA to make changes.

 

[charlestweed]

All you guys and gals are above average if you get into dental school. When you get into dental school, only 10% max is above average. Thats how dentistry is, you all say "I am gonna come out and work hard and bla bla" LOL, sure. Only the special ones join the 300k club and the ones that go rural, rest can bank on 150k as indicated by averages.

That sounds about right. Only 10% are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Unlike the other 90%, these successful dentists have chosen to work long hours and on the weekends. They have sacrificed their time to take good care of the patients….to earn the patients’ trust….and to keep their patients happy so their patients refer more patients to their offices. They are present at the office all the time to make sure that the staff, the associate dentists, and the hygienists are working and not being lazy. It’s hard work and not luck.

To be successful, you have to continue to put in the effort. The moment you stop working hard and let your staff and your associate run your office, your office declines very quickly. That’s what has happened to older dental practices, whose owners no longer have the same motivation to work the way that they did when they were younger. And these owners have to sell their practices before they become worthless. It’s the same for other jobs as well. In order for one to get a raise, one has to continue to work hard to improve his/her skills and knowledge. If not, he/she will be replaced with a younger person, who is willing to work harder than him/her.

Two years ago, I met a 47yo 4th year dental student through my cousin….they play tennis together. A couple of days ago, I met this guy again at my cousin’s house and he told me he did 14 RCT’s in a day at an office where he works 1 day a month there. He’s a GP. He also works a few days for the corp. And He also has his own office. Not bad for a recent grad, who is practicing in one of the most saturated markets (in CA). One major advatange of being a non-traditional student is maturity.

Don’t go to dental school, if you think you can easily earn nice paycheck with easy 4 days/wk work schedule. Nothing is easy in life.

 

[ThirdMolarz]

You guys are funny lol. I’m one year out and it varies what you make month to month but currently I’m in the pretax 250k-350k range over the past few months. I hear NYU after interest and all comes to $800k student loan if you start dental school now? That’s crazy to me idk if I’d sign up for $800k. Mine’s around half that

 

[Enrico_Fermi]

That’s why you gotta cut the deficit by matching into Orthodontics or maxillofacial residency.

 

[LFA20]

You guys are funny lol. I’m one year out and it varies what you make month to month but currently I’m in the pretax 250k-350k range over the past few months. I hear NYU after interest and all comes to $800k student loan if you start dental school now? That’s crazy to me idk if I’d sign up for $800k. Mine’s around half that

Which bum**** part of of the US are you at? Most people are not gonna want to settle down there

 

[D1Bound]

Which bum**** part of of the US are you at? Most people are not gonna want to settle down there

You’re right. Everyone reading this go to the city. You want to go to Miami, Dallas, Boston, Los Angeles, you want NOTHING to do with the country. Stay FARRRRR away from the country. It is TERRIBLE

 

[ThirdMolarz]

Which bum**** part of of the US are you at? Most people are not gonna want to settle down there

Northeast? Very bum***

 

[SV7855]

Don’t go to dental school, if you think you can easily earn nice paycheck with easy 4 days/wk work schedule. Nothing is easy in life.

I make about a million working 4 days a week and I spend most of my time ****posting in my office between patients.

 

[D1Bound]

I make about a million working 4 days a week and I spend most of my time ****posting in my office between patients.

Can you be my mentor. What a boss.

 

[charlestweed]

I make about a million working 4 days a week and I spend most of my time ****posting in my office between patients.

Very nice! Even if you owe $1M in student loan debt, you are still way ahead of the dentists who have zero debt but only make $150k/year. When you open your own office, the sky’s the limit.

My earlier comment was for the predent students who plan to settle for easy 4 days/wk associate job with $150k income for the rest of their practicing career..... with no plan to open an office. Because with this plan, signing up for IBR loan repayment is the only option.....and you will be in debt forever. One should think of dental education as a form of financial investment. If you take out $500k loan for dental school, you must have plan to make at least $300k/yr after graduation (ie moving to less saturated area, working more days if live in a saturated area, opening own office, marrying a person who also has a stable income and no debt etc).

Dentistry is a wonderful profession. You’ll never have problem finding work in dentistry. It’s recession proof. It will be around for a long time. Even for perio, which many have regarded as a dying specialty, my wife has had zero problem finding patients to work on. There’s a lot more work than the dentists can handle. The question is “are you willing to do these jobs or not?” How far are you willing to drive? How flexible you are with the work schedule?