Don't go to Dental School

[SV7855]

Very nice! Even if you owe $1M in student loan debt, you are still way ahead of the dentists who have zero debt but only make $150k/year. When you open your own office, the sky’s the limit.

My earlier comment was for the predent students who plan to settle for easy 4 days/wk associate job with $150k income for the rest of their practicing career..... with no plan to open an office. Because with this plan, signing up for IBR loan repayment is the only option.....and you will be in debt forever. One should think of dental education as a form of financial investment. If you take out $500k loan for dental school, you must have plan to make at least $300k/yr after graduation (ie moving to less saturated area, working more days if live in a saturated area, opening own office, marrying a person who also has a stable income and no debt etc).

Dentistry is a wonderful profession. You’ll never have problem finding work in dentistry. It’s recession proof. It will be around for a long time. Even for perio, which many have regarded as a dying specialty, my wife has had zero problem finding patients to work on. There’s a lot more work than the dentists can handle. The question is “are you willing to do these jobs or not?” How far are you willing to drive? How flexible you are with the work schedule?

All true statements.

The biggest barrier I see is young students or doctors who think they need to stay in California, NYC, or some other saturated metro because they grew up there and they watched too much TV and think the rest of the country has no "culture" I live in Cleveland and have access to all the arts, food, great housing, and whatever else you could want. And guess what, if you miss California or the big city, you can afford to take a trip there every other weekend if you really want to. Go where you're needed.

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[ThirdMolarz]

All true statements.

The biggest barrier I see is young students or doctors who think they need to stay in California, NYC, or some other saturated metro because they grew up there and they watched too much TV and think the rest of the country has no "culture" I live in Cleveland and have access to all the arts, food, great housing, and whatever else you could want. And guess what, if you miss California or the big city, you can afford to take a trip there every other weekend if you really want to. Go where you're needed.

Agree. How are you making a mill? I thought I was doing well at 300k Lol

 

[askadds]

I make about a million working 4 days a week and I spend most of my time ****posting in my office between patients.

Are you not on DT? Are you not basically practicing with very high fees? I think we have spoke about it, your situation is very unique. I know you make a lot of money but this is not the norm correct? I think overall we agree, I just dont think its the norm.

 

[charlestweed]

Agree. How are you making a mill? I thought I was doing well at 300k Lol

Yeah, $300k is a good amount if you are single and have no family/kids to support. You need to make more if you want to provide for your kids more than what your parents had done for you and for your siblings. The health insurance for my family of 4 is $1900 a month…and it increases every year because we get older. Ten years ago, the health premium was about half that amount. The auto insurance premium for our 3 cars is $7500 for 6 months (or $1250/month). These are not expensive sport cars….they are just daily commuting cars: a 2021 BMW X7, 2023 Tesla Model X, and 2018 Tesla Model S. My wife, kids and I all have good driving records. Auto insurance premiums have gone up a lot in recent years. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/business/inflation-car-insurance-rate-increases/index.html. That’s nearly $40k/yr for just those 2 insurances for my family. This is why we have to continue to work despite having zero debt. When it’s time for us to retire, my wife and I plan to share 1 car to save money .

For our primary house, which was already paid off, we have to pay at least $3k/month just to live in it: $1900/month in property tax, $500-800/month for electricity, $100/month for natural gas, $250/month for HOA, $120/month for pool maintenance. I don’t have to pay for landscape maintenance. I mow the grass twice a week….I take care of my own front and back yards….this is my new hobby.

$300k income.....after paying taxes, it'll be $220-240k.....after setting aside $20-25% for retirement, you will have around $160-180k to live.

 

[SV7855]

Agree. How are you making a mill? I thought I was doing well at 300k Lol

tbh I was very fortunate to be presented with an opportunity to buy a large practice that was not being fully utilized. About 6000-8000 active patients producing $1.1M when I bought it. Took it to $3.2M in 24 months just by doing good quality bread and butter dentistry.

 

[SV7855]

Are you not on DT? Are you not basically practicing with very high fees? I think we have spoke about it, your situation is very unique. I know you make a lot of money but this is not the norm correct? I think overall we agree, I just dont think its the norm.

Yeah I'm all over DT. I don't practice with high fees... in fact most of my patients are in-network PPO patients. I don't think what I make is the norm but it's not incredibly uncommon either for a practice owner.

 

[D1Bound]

tbh I was very fortunate to be presented with an opportunity to buy a large practice that was not being fully utilized. About 6000-8000 active patients producing $1.1M when I bought it. Took it to $3.2M in 24 months just by doing good quality bread and butter dentistry.

Do you do RCT, implants, and 3rd molars?

 

[LFA20]

Yeah, $300k is a good amount if you are single and have no family/kids to support. You need to make more if you want to provide for your kids more than what your parents had done for you and for your siblings. The health insurance for my family of 4 is $1900 a month…and it increases every year because we get older. Ten years ago, the health premium was about half that amount. The auto insurance premium for our 3 cars is $7500 for 6 months (or $1250/month). These are not expensive sport cars….they are just daily commuting cars: a 2021 BMW X7, 2023 Tesla Model X, and 2018 Tesla Model S. My wife, kids and I all have good driving records. Auto insurance premiums have gone up a lot in recent years. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/business/inflation-car-insurance-rate-increases/index.html. That’s nearly $40k/yr for just those 2 insurances for my family. This is why we have to continue to work despite having zero debt. When it’s time for us to retire, my wife and I plan to share 1 car to save money .

For our primary house, which was already paid off, we have to pay at least $3k/month just to live in it: $1900/month in property tax, $500-800/month for electricity, $100/month for natural gas, $250/month for HOA, $120/month for pool maintenance. I don’t have to pay for landscape maintenance. I mow the grass twice a week….I take care of my own front and back yards….this is my new hobby.

$300k income.....after paying taxes, it'll be $220-240k.....after setting aside $20-25% for retirement, you will have around $160-180k to live.

LOL Charles.. you "chose" that life style though. You don't need to be living in a million dollar+ house in orange county with a pool and drive Tesla/BMW($100k+ cars).

 

[charlestweed]

LOL Charles.. you "chose" that life style though. You don't need to be living in a million dollar+ house in orange county with a pool and drive Tesla/BMW($100k+ cars).

Everyone has to buy health and auto insurances. It's the law. If you look at the tesla website, a brand new model x is only $80k, which is at the same price range as a Toyota Sequoia SUV. Tesla is not a luxury car. People buy Teslas because of the federal tax credit and saving money on gasoline and maintenance. Another reason is Tesla offers features that can only be found in expensive cars such as super fast acceleration from 0 to 60 mph and autopilot, which makes it an ideal daily commuting car.

As parents, you want your kids to grow up in a nice safe neighborhood with good schools....you want to give your kids a better life than what your parents could for you. When you have kids, you'll know what I am talking about. And a house in such nice neighborhood usually costs more than the average. An average home in CA is $1M. But at least the property tax here in SoCal is only 1.2%. If you live in Texas, you pay the same property tax amount for a house that is 1/3 the cost of the house in CA.

Things are a lot more expensive now.....especially the insurance costs. The insurance companies have lost a lot money....they either have to raise the premiums or stop insuring homeowners. Liberty insurance has just sent me a notice that they will no longer insure my office.

 

[LFA20]

Everyone has to buy health and auto insurances. It's the law. If you look at the tesla website, a brand new model x is only $80k, which is at the same price range as a Toyota Sequoia SUV. Tesla is not a luxury car. People buy Teslas because of the federal tax credit and saving money on gasoline and maintenance. Another reason is Tesla offers features that can only be found in expensive cars such as super fast acceleration from 0 to 60 mph and autopilot, which makes it an ideal daily commuting car.

As parents, you want your kids to grow up in a nice safe neighborhood with good schools....you want to give your kids a better life than what your parents could for you. When you have kids, you'll know what I am talking about. And a house in such nice neighborhood usually costs more than the average. An average home in CA is $1M. But at least the property tax here in SoCal is only 1.2%. If you live in Texas, you pay the same property tax amount for a house that is 1/3 the cost of the house in CA.

Things are a lot more expensive now.....especially the insurance costs. The insurance companies have lost a lot money....they either have to raise the premiums or stop insuring homeowners. Liberty insurance has just sent me a notice that they will no longer insure my office.

Charles.. you can get a Hyundai Tucson hybrid/electric for half the price or even a slightly used one for less. Insurance will definitely be less for these slower cars. And come on what do you need a high acceleration for? Millions of families commute everyday on a slow Honda civic/toyota corolla. Getting a Tesla is about having a status symbol. You do whatever makes you happy I guess or if you care so much about what others think or perceive about you.. BUT getting a fast electric car is absolutely not a necessity.

How often do you, your wife or your kids use the pool in your house? Also, most people only spend time in the same rooms in their house (living room, bedroom, and kitchen). You absolutely don't need a $1 million dollar+ house to live in especially just for a family of 4.

As a parent you DON’T want to spoil your kids. You want them to know how hard it is to MAKE money. You see sooo many kids are entitled these days…

No offense but all the things you mentioned are FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS..

 

[charlestweed]

Charles.. you can get a Hyundai Tucson hybrid/electric for half the price or even a slightly used one for less. Insurance will definitely be less for these slower cars. And come on what do you need a high acceleration for? Millions of families commute everyday on a slow Honda civic/toyota corolla. Getting a Tesla is about having a status symbol. You do whatever makes you happy I guess or if you care so much about what others think or perceive about you.. BUT getting a fast electric car is absolutely not a necessity.

I will probably downgrade to such cheaper car when I retire and no longer earn an income. I am still working so there's no reason to drive such car. It’s not just a status symbol. Look, I studied hard in school so I can get good stable jobs and have a better life. For me, education is the way to get out of poverty. I continue to work hard after graduation so I can afford to drive nice cars (and have other nice things)….so I don’t have to drive a used unsafe unreliable car like when I was a poor student. My kids are inside it… therefore, the car better has the most rigid body frame and the best airbag system to protect them. When used cars are out of warranty, they cost a lot (time and headache as well) to repair.

How often do you, your wife or your kids use the pool in your house? Also, most people only spend time in the same rooms in their house (living room, bedroom, and kitchen). You absolutely don't need a $1 million dollar+ house to live in especially just for a family of 4.

We didn’t want a pool but it came with the house. We didn’t have a lot of choices since the home inventory in our area was (still is now) very low 2 years ago. The houses that don’t have a pool failed to meet our criteria. We actually downgraded. Our current house is 1200sf smaller than our previous one. The house has almost all the check marks: safe, quiet, cul-de-sac location, newer construction (less repair headache) etc. It’s big enough to have family members/guests to come over…..it’s one of the ways to keep us entertained and to relieve stress from work. Hopefully, having a pool will help with the resale value when we decide to sell it.

As a parent you DON’T want to spoil your kids. You want them to know how hard it is to MAKE money. You see sooo many kids are entitled these days…

We, older generation, didn’t have to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for our college education but our kids will…and they will be in serious financial trouble if we, parents, don’t help them. We paid $380k for our first house. This same house now costs at least $1.5M. There’s no way our kids can afford to buy their first house within the first 10 years. None of these is their fault. They were born into/inherit all these debt/inflation problems because we have an incompetent government that keeps spending and printing money. Working hard to save for our kids is the very least that we could do for our kids…..to make up for these problems.

We spend extra to put our kids in private schools not because we spoil them but because we don’t like the way public schools teach their students. For academic purpose, public schools are fine. But there are some values, that we think are important for our kids to learn, are not taught at public schools. LFA20, do you have kids?

No offense but all the things you mentioned are FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS..

Yeah, we are living in the best country in the world. That’s why I don’t like traveling to other less developed countries, where the cars are smaller, the living spaces are smaller, wifi signals are weaker, the streets are more crowded, the air is more polluted etc. Instead of wasting the money on traveling, I just stay home and buy nice things here.

 

[LFA20]

I will probably downgrade to such cheaper car when I retire and no longer earn an income. I am still working so there's no reason to drive such car. It’s not just a status symbol. Look, I studied hard in school so I can get good stable jobs and have a better life. For me, education is the way to get out of poverty. I continue to work hard after graduation so I can afford to drive nice cars (and have other nice things)….so I don’t have to drive a used unsafe unreliable car like when I was a poor student. My kids are inside it… therefore, the car better has the most rigid body frame and the best airbag system to protect them. When used cars are out of warranty, they cost a lot (time and headache as well) to repair.

That's exactly my point. You chose to buy these expensive/nice things. I could care less what car I was in (just need to have an AC/Heater) as long as it's able to get me from point A to point B. And please.. Hyundai/Toyota are just as if not more reliable than a Tesla.. LOL "the best air bag system and rigid body? LOL you crack me up man.. Every single car manual will say that.

We didn’t want a pool but it came with the house. We didn’t have a lot of choices since the home inventory in our area was (still is now) very low 2 years ago. The houses that don’t have a pool failed to meet our criteria. We actually downgraded. Our current house is 1200sf smaller than our previous one. The house has almost all the check marks: safe, quiet, cul-de-sac location, newer construction (less repair headache) etc. It’s big enough to have family members/guests to come over…..it’s one of the ways to keep us entertained and to relieve stress from work. Hopefully, having a pool will help with the resale value when we decide to sell it.

We, older generation, didn’t have to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for our college education but our kids will…and they will be in serious financial trouble if we, parents, don’t help them. We paid $380k for our first house. This same house now costs at least $1.5M. There’s no way our kids can afford to buy their first house within the first 10 years. None of these is their fault. They were born into/inherit all these debt/inflation problems because we have an incompetent government that keeps spending and printing money. Working hard to save for our kids is the very least that we could do for our kids…..to make up for these problems.

We spend extra to put our kids in private schools not because we spoil them but because we don’t like the way public schools teach their students. For academic purpose, public schools are fine. But there are some values, that we think are important for our kids to learn, are not taught at public schools. LFA20, do you have kids?

Yeah, we are living in the best country in the world. That’s why I don’t like traveling to other less developed countries, where the cars are smaller, the living spaces are smaller, wifi signals are weaker, the streets are more crowded, the air is more polluted etc. Instead of wasting the money on traveling, I just stay home and buy nice things here.

Look, I agree that things are way harder now than it was 20 years ago but there is a huge difference between SPOILING your kids and giving them whatever they want vs teaching them the value of hard work. I have lived in many parts of the world and have seen so many families who are happy and living their life with a FRACTION of what we make in the US. It's all about teaching and not accustoming your kids to that luxurious lifestyle. What if you suddenly can't work and no longer able to support your kids this life style and they no longer want to pursue higher education? It's gonna be SO hard for them to downgrade to the lifestyle that they were used to being provided. There are MANY rich people out there who still would keep the same lifestyle as when they were poor and had nothing. Charles there are a lot of my coworkers in the military whose parents are dentists and own multiple practices. They for sure had the money to pay for their kids tuition but chose NOT to

All I am saying is there's nothing wrong with enjoying nice things in life and feel that you deserve them especially if YOU had worked hard for it. However, what hard work have your kids done so far? They grew up in a 1 million dollar house, live in a nice area, attend good schools, etc. They don't need to worry about supporting other members of their family while in school.

Happiness is subjective and some people enjoy living in a big house and staying home and not see whats out there and that's fine. However, saying that 300k income is low is just severely out of touch with reality when the average household income in America is below $100k.

And yes I do have a kid(still young)

 

[charlestweed]

That's exactly my point. You chose to buy these expensive/nice things. I could care less what car I was in (just need to have an AC/Heater) as long as it's able to get me from point A to point B. And please.. Hyundai/Toyota are just as if not more reliable than a Tesla.. LOL "the best air bag system and rigid body? LOL you crack me up man.. Every single car manual will say that.



Look, I agree that things are way harder now than it was 20 years ago but there is a huge difference between SPOILING your kids and giving them whatever they want vs teaching them the value of hard work. I have lived in many parts of the world and have seen so many families who are happy and living their life with a FRACTION of what we make in the US. It's all about teaching and not accustoming your kids to that luxurious lifestyle. What if you suddenly can't work and no longer able to support your kids this life style and they no longer want to pursue higher education? It's gonna be SO hard for them to downgrade to the lifestyle that they were used to being provided. There are MANY rich people out there who still would keep the same lifestyle as when they were poor and had nothing. Charles there are a lot of my coworkers in the military whose parents are dentists and own multiple practices. They for sure had the money to pay for their kids tuition but chose NOT to

All I am saying is there's nothing wrong with enjoying nice things in life and feel that you deserve them especially if YOU had worked hard for it. However, what hard work have your kids done so far? They grew up in a 1 million dollar house, live in a nice area, attend good schools, etc. They don't need to worry about supporting other members of their family while in school.

Happiness is subjective and some people enjoy living in a big house and staying home and not see whats out there and that's fine. However, saying that 300k income is low is just severely out of touch with reality when the average household income in America is below $100k.

And yes I do have a kid(still young)

I didn’t say $300k income is low. That’s plenty of cash if you choose not to save/pay for your kids’ college education (and dental school if they choose to follow your footsteps)…..and just let them take out student loans (which will be a lot more than when you had to take out) like you…..so they can learn. Please don’t tell me that they don’t have to go to college and that a plumber can make more money. As parents, you always want your kids to be better than you.

My point is things are more expensive now and will be a lot more 20-30 years from now…. when you retire. When I was a new grad, $100k used to be a lot but not anymore. You have to make sure you don’t quit (retire) too early and save enough for your retirement. Things unexpectedly cost a lot more now than when they did just a few years ago. Last year, the auto insurance premium for our 3 cars was $4500 for 6 months…..and it’s $7500 now. I am glad I am a dentist and have a stable job.

 

[charlestweed]

This article was written 5 years ago.... in 2019 when things were not as expensive as they are now. The author wrote about 3 different couples who felt they were living paycheck to paycheck despite earning 6-figure incomes. The third couple live in Atlanta, have 2 young kids under 5 yrs old, and make $325k/yr.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90338071/we-make-325000-a-year-and-feel-like-we-live-paycheck-to-paycheck

 

[LFA20]

This article was written 5 years ago.... in 2019 when things were not as expensive as they are now. The author wrote about 3 different couples who felt they were living paycheck to paycheck despite earning 6-figure incomes. The third couple live in Atlanta, have 2 young kids under 5 yrs old, and make $325k/yr.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90338071/we-make-325000-a-year-and-feel-like-we-live-paycheck-to-paycheck

They are living paycheck to paycheck when they are putting away over $70k/year in retirements/savings/investments? LOL

Does the author of that article even understand what living paycheck to paycheck means? 😂

 

[charlestweed]

They are living paycheck to paycheck when they are putting away over $70k/year in retirements/savings/investments? LOL

Does the author of that article even understand what living paycheck to paycheck means? 😂

It’s good that they are extra cautious on spending their money. They discipline themselves by setting aside a large amount of money for their future retirement. It’s good that the husband takes advantage of the 401k matching that his employer offers him and maximizes it every year. We, owner dentists, don’t have that…..we have to set up our own 401k through an S corp….and we have to offer it to our employees. It’s good that they don’t feel “rich” and don't live like rich people despite making $325k a year. They will be fine when they retire. The point I tried to make on many of my previous posts was making $300k is not a lot as you think and you still have to be very careful, especially if you have family/kids to support.

The problem is a lot of young working professionals don’t think like this couple. They think making $2-300k is a lot and therefore, they go out and spend their money like the politicians in congress do. Instead of paying off the student loan debt ASAP, they stretch the loan repayment to a longer term so they can spend their money on nice things that they had longed for when they were still in school. Because their required monthly debt repayment amount is much lower than the standard 10-yr plan, they don’t feel they are living paycheck to paycheck. They don’t set aside 20-25% of their income every year for their retirement because they think they are still young and have plenty of time to save later on. I’ve seen many older high income earners, who can’t retire because they still have debts to pay back and because things are getting more and more expensive.

If you continue to drive a Huyndai and live in a modest house even when you earn a nice income of $300k or more, you will be a very wealthy person later on. As Dave Ramsey has often said, live like no one else, so later you can live like no one else.

The silver lining in this whole inflation/rising cost of living mess is buying a house (small or big) is always a good thing. It’s a good way to battle against the inflation. They are a nice source of passive/retirement income if you own more than one property. I’ve had more luck with the real estate investment than with stock. If I am tired of paying the property taxes, HOA, and other house-related bills or if I need a large sum of cash to pay my medical bills, I can always sell the house….usually at much higher price than when I purchased it. One day I will have to do that and move into an assisted living facility.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Does the author of that article even understand what living paycheck to paycheck means?

I think the exact same thing when I listen to Bloomberg Radio. I scream inside whenever a commentator mentions the “resilient” American consumer…

Big Hoss

 

[askadds]

funny times. My HYG just showed me the temp jobs around us for HYG, offers of $110+/hour! LOL good luck getting a temp dentist job at that rate or even a full time associate position for that much. Dentistry is really broken with the ADA and AEDA just collecting dues and painting a rosy picture for you all.

 

[Thehighwind87]

funny times. My HYG just showed me the temp jobs around us for HYG, offers of $110+/hour! LOL good luck getting a temp dentist job at that rate or even a full time associate position for that much. Dentistry is really broken with the ADA and AEDA just collecting dues and painting a rosy picture for you all.

Eh, the market is not that crazy anymore.

1) The hygiene market in my area has calmed down tremendously. There aren't as many job listings and hygiene wages have really topped out. Dentists have stopped giving out freebies.

2) You have to be a complete and utter ***** to hire a temp for 110+. I wouldn't hire one past 70$ period. If my hygienist calls out for a week, I just reschedule all their patients. Why on earth would I hire a temp for 70-100$ and LOSE money. Any dentist that has reasonable business sense would close the day.

While I do agree that dentistry is "broken." I do think that wages have peaked for the time being, and that alot of dental offices are cutting back. 2022-23 was the year of glut and employees sorta dictating their wages...and I think 2024 will be the year where employers say enough is enough and cut back. I've already made cuts to my budget.

 

[askadds]

Just found out my sister in law with a BS in biology is making 150k/year after just 3 years at a pharma company, started working in the lab and moving up the chain like any other job that rewards hard work. Good to be around 25 yrs old, just an undergrad degree (barely any debt) and making more than an new grad associate dentist while there is a potential for decades of growth, retirement coming her way. Think twice people.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Just found out my sister in law with a BS in biology is making 150k/year after just 3 years at a pharma company, started working in the lab and moving up the chain like any other job that rewards hard work. Good to be around 25 yrs old, just an undergrad degree (barely any debt) and making more than an new grad associate dentist while there is a potential for decades of growth, retirement coming her way. Think twice people.

Dentistry will obviously continue to get worse as things get more expensive and other jobs get pay raises to keep up with inflation.

Dentistry doesn’t keep up with inflation at all.

With inflation permeating into our everyday lives like

A coffee costing 7-8$ now

Lunch costing 20-30$

Cereal costing 10$

And wages also increasing for the vast majority of people- one has to wonder- why would you even go into dentistry if you knew that your wages would be stagnant if not decrease year over year.

It seems sorta crazy to think about. 10 years ago people never thought hygienists would earn close to an associate dentist but today there are hygienists making as much as a new grad associate. Thats inflation for you.

If I were a betting man- I would bet that it will worsenz

 

[askadds]

whats is even crazier and shows the problem is that back in the day like 15 yrs ago, a practice running super efficiently and the docs was "succcefull" was netting 350k-400k/yr...today that still hold true in the face of everything else increasing in price. Makes no sense!

 

[charlestweed]

Eh, the market is not that crazy anymore.

1) The hygiene market in my area has calmed down tremendously. There aren't as many job listings and hygiene wages have really topped out. Dentists have stopped giving out freebies.

2) You have to be a complete and utter ***** to hire a temp for 110+. I wouldn't hire one past 70$ period. If my hygienist calls out for a week, I just reschedule all their patients. Why on earth would I hire a temp for 70-100$ and LOSE money. Any dentist that has reasonable business sense would close the day.

While I do agree that dentistry is "broken." I do think that wages have peaked for the time being, and that alot of dental offices are cutting back. 2022-23 was the year of glut and employees sorta dictating their wages...and I think 2024 will be the year where employers say enough is enough and cut back. I've already made cuts to my budget.

It’s about time that you make cuts. Hopefully, this won’t negatively affect your production. For any amount that you’ve cut, it goes straight to your pocket.

 

[charlestweed]

Facing over-saturation problems and expansions of dental corps, we, California dentists, have to force ourselves to keep the overhead low in order to survive. Most offices here in CA accept medicaid.

Keeping the overhead low is key. If you have a hard time filling your appt book, you have too much time reading the SDN forum posts, and your staff often stand around doing nothing, then your office is either too big (with too many chairs) or it is overstaffed. This means that your office is not running at its maximum capacity……aka being inefficient. I highly recommend new grads to work for busy corp offices and learn how they keep the overhead low…..apply good things to your office and avoid bad things that the corps have. There are a lot of things you can cut but one thing that you can’t cut is the office rent, which increases (usually 3-4%) every year. You should start with a small office space first and try to put as many chairs in there as possible. There’s no need for having a “doctor’s office” inside your office….you show up to work and not to chill in there. Small space costs less to build. You also pay less in electricity to cool the office. If your office becomes too crowded with too many patients, isn’t this a nice problem to have? As an owner, the goal is to have as many patients as possible. I’d rather have this problem than having empty chairs and appt book. You can always open more days (ie Saturdays and Sundays), hire more staff and hire an associate to work for you if you dont' want to work on the weekends.

You can also purchase used equipment to save money. There are a lot of places that you can buy supplies for much less than when you buy them through the sale reps at the big supply companies. Back when I started my office, there weren't a lot of cheap supplies that dentists could get from places like Ebay, Amazon, and Net32 etc.

 

[charlestweed]

Dentistry will obviously continue to get worse as things get more expensive and other jobs get pay raises to keep up with inflation.

Dentistry doesn’t keep up with inflation at all.

With inflation permeating into our everyday lives like

A coffee costing 7-8$ now

Lunch costing 20-30$

Cereal costing 10$

And wages also increasing for the vast majority of people- one has to wonder- why would you even go into dentistry if you knew that your wages would be stagnant if not decrease year over year.

It seems sorta crazy to think about. 10 years ago people never thought hygienists would earn close to an associate dentist but today there are hygienists making as much as a new grad associate. Thats inflation for you.

If I were a betting man- I would bet that it will worsenz

Things indeed will get worse. Dentists are not the only people who are affected by this inflation. Talk to your friends and neighbors.....I am sure they'll all complain about the same things.

I feel bad for the younger generation. Young grads living in their parents’ houses, renting, and sharing with roommates are now the new trend. I’ve been out for more than 20 years. The living costs have increased over time but at a very slow pace in the late 90s and 2000s…..it was gradual enough that we could easily adapt. This rapid increase in living and housing costs (almost double) started right after the Covid pandemic. Things have increased so fast in the last 2-3 years that even I, an established dentist who has zero debt, have to re-consider my exit (retirement) strategy. I am 52 now. I’ll definitely have to work longer than what I had originally planned in order to keep up with the rising cost of living…… most likely until I no longer have to pay for an expensive health insurance plan and will be qualified for a low cost Medicare plan. Who know how much a typical fast food meal will cost 10-20 years from now??? When I was a new grad, 20+ years ago, saving $1-1.5M would be plenty for retirement.

 

[Thehighwind87]

whats is even crazier and shows the problem is that back in the day like 15 yrs ago, a practice running super efficiently and the docs was "succcefull" was netting 350k-400k/yr...today that still hold true in the face of everything else increasing in price. Makes no sense!

Here is how stupid it is.

2017 my hygienist getting paid about 47 an hour for a 100$ cleaning. Today they get paid 65-70$ an hour for a 100$ prophy.

In that same realm tuition has literally skyrocketed.

I don’t know how else to make it more clear that dentistry income will continue to shrink and your overall costs of living will increase.

At least with other jobs you can job hop and get a raise and or get a raise in general.

If I was a betting man hygiene wages will be 70-90 by 2030 and a cleaning will be… 102$

Good luck new grads you will need it. I’ll be done by then. You can hire me as a temp dentist/hygienist for 150$ an hour… 🙏 scrape teeth for 150$ an hour? Sign me up.

 

[charlestweed]

Here is how stupid it is.

2017 my hygienist getting paid about 47 an hour for a 100$ cleaning. Today they get paid 65-70$ an hour for a 100$ prophy.

In that same realm tuition has literally skyrocketed.

I don’t know how else to make it more clear that dentistry income will continue to shrink and your overall costs of living will increase.

At least with other jobs you can job hop and get a raise and or get a raise in general.

If I was a betting man hygiene wages will be 70-90 by 2030 and a cleaning will be… 102$

Good luck new grads you will need it. I’ll be done by then. You can hire me as a temp dentist/hygienist for 150$ an hour… 🙏 scrape teeth for 150$ an hour? Sign me up.

How many patients can your hygienist see in 1 hour? If it takes her 30 minutes (which should be plenty of time for a patient who is on a routine 6-month maintenance), she will produce for you $200 (2 cleanings) in an hour....and your net passive income is around $130-140 an hour. If she sees 10-12 patients a day, your net passive daily income from hygiene alone is around $450-600/day. This is not bad at all.

 

[Thehighwind87]

How many patients can your hygienist see in 1 hour? If it takes her 30 minutes (which should be plenty of time for a patient who is on a routine 6-month maintenance), she will produce for you $200 (2 cleanings) in an hour....and your net passive income is around $130-140 an hour. If she sees 10-12 patients a day, your net passive daily income from hygiene alone is around $450-600/day. This is not bad at all.

Charles no offense but some of your suggestions make me scratch my head

You tell me that you want me to tell my hygienists who can get a job anywhere tommorow that I’m cutting their 1 hour prophies to 30 minutes with assisted hygiene and to start hustling…

And you are telling me that patients who I have seen for 15 years that they are gonna be getting 30 min cleanings with the prophy done by a hygienist and funneling them out like a factory mill?

Yes I get your point of view that one has to adapt with the times but the reality is that is not possible for the majority of your single owner practices that rely on goodwill and repeat customers.

If patients want a 30 min funnel cleaning they can go to a DSO.

 

[charlestweed]

Charles no offense but some of your suggestions make me scratch my head

You tell me that you want me to tell my hygienists who can get a job anywhere tommorow that I’m cutting their 1 hour prophies to 30 minutes with assisted hygiene and to start hustling…

And you are telling me that patients who I have seen for 15 years that they are gonna be getting 30 min cleanings with the prophy done by a hygienist and funneling them out like a factory mill?

Yes I get your point of view that one has to adapt with the times but the reality is that is not possible for the majority of your single owner practices that rely on goodwill and repeat customers.

If patients want a 30 min funnel cleaning they can go to a DSO.

Patients only pay $100 and demand one full hour of cleaning? IMO, spending an hour on routine recall visit is overkill. What’s there to scale if a patient visits your office every 6 months. To burn one hour, your hygienist would have to do a lot of talking in order to keep the patient entertained. You would have to re-scale the same set of teeth 4-5 times…. and it still wouldn’t go over an hour. Deep cleaning is a different story but you usually charge a lot more for your time.

As a patient, I wouldn’t want someone to spend an hour to clean my teeth either. It’s stressful to be in the dental chair for that long. What I like about getting my teeth cleaning done by my sister is she cleans my teeth in 10 minutes. There are better things for me to do than sitting in a dental chair for an hour to get my teeth cleaned.

So I guess CA dentists don’t charge too low. Medicaid only pays dentists $50 for a cleaning but it doesn’t take them anywhere near an hour to do it. Spending more time doesn't necessarily mean higher quality work.

My sister in law (my wife’s brother’s wife) is a hygienist. It’s over-saturated here in CA because there are a lot of new dental hygiene programs that were opened in recent years. If she’s slow, she’ll easily be replaced by someone else.

Theighwind87, even if your hygienist only lets you book 8 patients a day, you still make around $240-320 a day in passive income. Low overhead….. Rent and electricity are already paid for.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Patients only pay $100 and demand one full hour of cleaning? IMO, spending an hour on routine recall visit is overkill. What’s there to scale if a patient visits your office every 6 months. To burn one hour, your hygienist would have to do a lot of talking in order to keep the patient entertained. You would have to re-scale the same set of teeth 4-5 times…. and it still wouldn’t go over an hour. Deep cleaning is a different story but you usually charge a lot more for your time.

As a patient, I wouldn’t want someone to spend an hour to clean my teeth either. It’s stressful to be in the dental chair for that long. What I like about getting my teeth cleaning done by my sister is she cleans my teeth in 10 minutes. There are better things for me to do than sitting in a dental chair for an hour to get my teeth cleaned.

So I guess CA dentists don’t charge too low. Medicaid only pays dentists $50 for a cleaning but it doesn’t take them anywhere near an hour to do it. Spending more time doesn't necessarily mean higher quality work.

My sister in law (my wife’s brother’s wife) is a hygienist. It’s over-saturated here in CA because there are a lot of new dental hygiene programs that were opened in recent years. If she’s slow, she’ll easily be replaced by someone else.

Theighwind87, even if your hygienist only lets you book 8 patients a day, you still make around $240-320 a day in passive income. Low overhead….. Rent and electricity are already paid for.

You are missing the point.

The point is 10 years ago you were making 400-500$ passive income. Now it’s dropped to 240-320… and it will drop to 100-200$. That’s the issue at hand. Your income shrinks while cost of living goes up.

You say work more do more etc. Eventually you can’t and you just take it on the chin. That’s the point.

 

[askadds]

Things indeed will get worse. Dentists are not the only people who are affected by this inflation. Talk to your friends and neighbors.....I am sure they'll all complain about the same things.

I feel bad for the younger generation. Young grads living in their parents’ houses, renting, and sharing with roommates are now the new trend. I’ve been out for more than 20 years. The living costs have increased over time but at a very slow pace in the late 90s and 2000s…..it was gradual enough that we could easily adapt. This rapid increase in living and housing costs (almost double) started right after the Covid pandemic. Things have increased so fast in the last 2-3 years that even I, an established dentist who has zero debt, have to re-consider my exit (retirement) strategy. I am 52 now. I’ll definitely have to work longer than what I had originally planned in order to keep up with the rising cost of living…… most likely until I no longer have to pay for an expensive health insurance plan and will be qualified for a low cost Medicare plan. Who know how much a typical fast food meal will cost 10-20 years from now??? When I was a new grad, 20+ years ago, saving $1-1.5M would be plenty for retirement.

Im very confused. You are 52 yo and practicing 20 yrs and think your perspective is anywhere close to what new grads are facing? Come on dude. I consult on the side and I'm hearing 800K for construction and equipment for a fancy start up and 500k minimum for bare bone stuff ... yes yes you found a good space and converted/modernized it blah blah but how many spaces are out there like that to satisfy the hundreds of new docs every year). Onto your debt upon graduation, how much did you graduate with? I just dont see how you can relate to a new grad.

10-12 pts a day for a HYG? not sure if this your model and your HYG is doing this but I would advise you to hold on with dear life to your HYG because the next one in line will not follow suite.

 

[charlestweed]

Im very confused. You are 52 yo and practicing 20 yrs and think your perspective is anywhere close to what new grads are facing? Come on dude. I consult on the side and I'm hearing 800K for construction and equipment for a fancy start up and 500k minimum for bare bone stuff ... yes yes you found a good space and converted/modernized it blah blah but how many spaces are out there like that to satisfy the hundreds of new docs every year). Onto your debt upon graduation, how much did you graduate with? I just dont see how you can relate to a new grad.

If you read many of my posts, I’ve repeatedly said I feel the pain that the younger generation dentists are facing: higher student loan debt, more competition, higher construction cost (if build from scratch), inflation etc. Therefore, I’ve tried to offer them some the ways to start small and cheap and keep the overhead as low as possible. And yes, there are plenty of these cheap leasehold sales that dentists can buy….they’ve been listed for a long time but not a lot of buyers want them. It took me more than 8 months to get a buyer to buy my tiny 995 sf ortho practice….it’s a leasehold sale…..I relocated my practice to a bigger office space. This young buyer only paid me $25k and the office was fully equipped to see patients on day one….and the rent was only $1600/month. I later learned that he got rid of my fully functional film based pan/ceph unit (which was included in the sale) and replaced it with a digital one. Why?

New grads need to understand that a nice office with latest technology won't help attract more patients. With so much student loan debt that they already owed, they don't have a choice (like us, older dentists had) to spend $500k for a new office. IMO, doctor's clinical skills, honesty, and availability (weekend office hours, accepting most insurance plans etc) are things that help attract patients. New grads need to work at the corps to learn how the corps keep the overhead low......and avoid listening to the sale reps, consultants and lawyers, who try to sell their products and services.

10-12 pts a day for a HYG? not sure if this your model and your HYG is doing this but I would advise you to hold on with dear life to your HYG because the next one in line will not follow suite.

That’s how many patients the hygienists at the corp where I work at have to see. One of them complained to me that the supervisor denied his vacation request but he didn’t quit because to him, it’s a good paying job. My sister in law is a hygienist and she also sees similar amount of patients. Many of my dentist friends (my sister and my wife included) don’t need hygienists and they do all the cleanings themselves.

 

[charlestweed]

You are missing the point.

The point is 10 years ago you were making 400-500$ passive income. Now it’s dropped to 240-320… and it will drop to 100-200$. That’s the issue at hand. Your income shrinks while cost of living goes up.

You say work more do more etc. Eventually you can’t and you just take it on the chin. That’s the point.

Yes, just like other health fields (medicine, pharmacy, optometry etc), dentistry is declining. I don’t deny that fact. But the dental income is still great in comparison to other jobs. Many jobs will eventually disappear because of technology and AI. Dentistry will never disappear.

Yes, young grads will have to work harder to make up for this decline. The current practicing dentists work 4 days/wk......they don't feel they need to work more and they are doing fine. New grads will have to work 5 days/wk like the majority of the workers in America. The current practicing dentists can still afford to hire hygienists. When the hygienists ask for too much that it becomes unprofitable for dental practices, future grad dentists will then have to do all the cleanings themselves just like many dentists, who practice in CA, do. What currently happens in CA is the preview of what dentistry will be like everywhere else in America in the future.

I didn’t have a lot of student loans and home prices were about 1/3 of what they are today. And yet, I still had to work 6 days/wk to make up for the low fees that I charge my patients (in order to compete against the corp offices). I had worked like this for 20 years (from 29-49 yo) because I hated debts and wanted to pay them off ASAP. To me, the feeling of being in debt (being a slave to the banks) is worse than showing up for work. As a business owner, the busiest and most productive day (when I have to run around like a maniac) is the best and the happiest work day for me. A bad day for me is a slow day...I'd rather work hard than sitting around doing nothing. I’ve had a great life. My kids, my parents, my wife’s parents are well taken care of……zero regret….zero complaint….life is good….love my job. Now that I cut down to working only 15 days/month….I don’t think I like this. There are too many empty days. I mow the grass twice a week (sometimes 3 times) to keep my life active. My hands hurt from practicing piano for hours.

There are plenty of dentistry for dentists to do to keep themselves busy. Even for a dying specialty like perio, my wife has had zero problem finding work at multiple offices to keep herself busy. The question is are you willing to do them or not?

 

[LFA20]

Just found out my sister in law with a BS in biology is making 150k/year after just 3 years at a pharma company, started working in the lab and moving up the chain like any other job that rewards hard work. Good to be around 25 yrs old, just an undergrad degree (barely any debt) and making more than an new grad associate dentist while there is a potential for decades of growth, retirement coming her way. Think twice people.

Most people with a BS in biology are not making that much though...

 

[charlestweed]

Most people with a BS in biology are not making that much though...

Yeah, the percentage of the people who make that much with a BS in Biology is probably the same as (or less than) the percentage of the dentists who make at least $1million /year. Most people that choose to major in Bio don’t plan to stop at the BS degree. They usually pursue a career in healthcare by getting higher education afterward....or change to another major such as engineering, psychology etc.