What's with all the "Dropping out of Med"

[W19]

You do realize the average American can do little to none of that, right? You're so out of touch with reality.

You bring up a different point...and I understand that. That why many think we are still in a recession when GDP is 2-3% because they don't see it in their own lives... I never said the average american is in the middle class... My point was that if your income can only afford you food and shelter, which is what 53k for family of 4 can only do, I don't think you satisfy the definition of a middle class family...

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[NontradCA]

Easy solution: Don't live in CA. There's 49 wonderful other states to live in. You're basically murdering yourself financially if you choose to live in a high CoL area when you've got other options.

Good solution. What if your family lives there? What if you don't want the cold? You guys make it out like it's easy being in the middle class (whatevers left of it), but you can't have the basic freedom in living in the state you want to?

 

[Winged Scapula]

No it's not. Most of the people I know in CA making that much are catching their ass. I'm talking either paying 1500+ rent or about to walk away on their mortgages. Arizona is where people go when they want to live more "comfortably", especially from your home state. Even if you're making 200k, that isn't much in terms of CA. And no, you're not sending your kids to private school or UC on less than 100k. CSU? Maybe.

Yes, AZ is less expensive than California but compared to the rest of the country (NYC and Boston not withstanding) the COL here is above the national average. If you can't afford $1500 rent, then you find a cheaper place. They do exist. People just want to live above their means. Perhaps you and I just have friends who define living comfortably differently.

If we're going to define going to a UC as "making it" then we are putting arbitrary limits on things. There is nothing wrong with a CSU education or a community college for that matter.

If people here are crying because their arbitrarily defined "average person" cannot afford to send their kids to private school or to Harvard, then that's a completely different problem.

 

[NontradCA]

Totally agree. Those are not vital to survival.

Dance lessons are probably a luxury for most.

Swim lessons should be a requirement for every child IMHO. The YMCA usually offers them for $30 or so; less than what it costs a family of 4 to eat dinner out.

It was $190. I'd know. I put them through it.

 

[NontradCA]

No, they are not.

I live in a suburb. It's actually where my school is, in a Middle America city. Avg listing is 300k.

 

[DermViser]

Yea, we should just put them in front of the TV.

Again -- paying for dance lessons or swimming lessons is a definite LUXURY. If you can't see that - then I can't help you. Apparently if one doesn't have personalized dance/swimming lessons the only other option is watching tv.

 

[Mad Jack]

Good solution. What if your family lives there? What if you don't want the cold? You guys make it out like it's easy being in the middle class (whatevers left of it), but you can't have the basic freedom in living in the state you want to?

Being a part of the middle class does not mean unlimited opportunities. It means having all the things you need to survive and live a fairly comfortable life. And there's plenty of low CoL places that are warm. If you want to financially devastate yourself to be close to family, that's a personal decision only you can make. But don't ***** when you're broke, because you did it to yourself.

 

[circulus vitios]

You bring up a different point...and I understand that. That why many think we are still in a recession when GDP is 2-3% because they don't see it in their own lives... I never said the average american is in the middle class... My point was that if your income can only afford you food and shelter, which is what 53k for family of 4 can only do, I don't think you satisfy the definition of a middle class family...

So you're arguing that your personal definition of middle class is not congruent with the definition held by reality and literally everyone else.

 

[DermViser]

Good solution. What if your family lives there? What if you don't want the cold? You guys make it out like it's easy being in the middle class (whatevers left of it), but you can't have the basic freedom in living in the state you want to?

You're right. Bc California is the only state in the union that is warm.

 

[Mad Jack]

Again -- paying for dance lessons or swimming lessons is a definite LUXURY. If you can't see that - then I can't help you. Apparently if one doesn't have personalized dance/swimming lessons the only other option is watching tv.

Yeah, there's no such thing as school sports programs or ECs and the like, nor is going outside or entertaining themselves with something other than a screen an option.

The real reason parents put kids in dance lessons and such is to keep them out of their hair and occupied most of the time. If you want to put in the time with your kids, there's a million things you could do that don't involved structured lessons and other nonsense.

 

[NontradCA]

Yes, AZ is less expensive than California but compared to the rest of the country (NYC and Boston not withstanding) the COL here is above the national average. If you can't afford $1500 rent, then you find a cheaper place. They do exist. People just want to live above their means. Perhaps you and I just have friends who define living comfortably differently.

If we're going to define going to a UC as "making it" then we are putting arbitrary limits on things. There is nothing wrong with a CSU education or a community college for that matter.

If people here are crying because their arbitrarily defined "average person" cannot afford to send their kids to private school or to Harvard, then that's a completely different problem.

I went to both CSU and community college. I was the only student going to medical school in my graduating class. You can't say that the education experiences and opportunities are the same. Before you say that it's the quality of students- most of the students at my school are there because of price.

 

[circulus vitios]

Let's get back on topic: **** med school.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It was $190. I'd know. I put them through it.

Then that's an issue specific to where you took them for lessons. As a former swim instructor I remember the lessons being quite pricey at private swim clubs and under $20 at the YMCA.

But since that's been a while I googled and looked at several places across the country and found that beginning swim lessons at the YMCA appeared to range from $20-$50.

 

[W19]

The average home listing where I live is 260k (suburbia), even with 20% down payment, we are talking about 1.8k/month mortgage+tax+homeowner insurance... You definitely can't afford that on a 53k/year income...

 

[circulus vitios]

The average home listing where I live is 260k (suburbia), even with 20% down payment, we are talking about 1.8k/month mortgage+tax+homeowner insurance... You definitely can't afford that on a 53k/year income...

A family with a combined $53,000/yr income doesn't live in a $260,000 house.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Good solution. What if your family lives there? What if you don't want the cold? You guys make it out like it's easy being in the middle class (whatevers left of it), but you can't have the basic freedom in living in the state you want to?

I wanted to live in Manhattan after my fellowship and interviewed for a job at a prestigious institution there.

Guess what? I wasn't going to be paid enough to be able to live in Manhattan so I slunk back to New Jersey with my hopes dashed but my Jimmy Choo's intact.

While it's ideal to be able to live where you want to be the reality is that's not always possible. We all have to make choices in life and if you want to live somewhere more expensive then you make the decision to decrease your expenses else where.

 

[NontradCA]

Then that's an issue specific to where you took them for lessons. As a former swim instructor I remember the lessons being quite pricey at private swim clubs and under $20 at the YMCA.

But since that's been a while I googled and looked at several places across the country and found that beginning swim lessons at the YMCA appeared to range from $20-$50.

20 years ago?

And it's not like this is Cali, it's the queen city in the south. And those are beginning where the Y bases their rate on your income. Do you think you'd be getting a cheaper price being of the "middle class"?

 

[DermViser]

I went to both CSU and community college. I was the only student going to medical school in my graduating class. You can't say that the education experiences and opportunities are the same. Before you say that it's the quality of students- most of the students at my school are there because of price.

What's your point?

 

[W19]

So you're arguing that your personal definition of middle class is not congruent with the definition held by reality and literally everyone else.

I guess it's not only me if only 42% think they are in the middle class, which is consistent with my number..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159029/americans-likely-say-belong-middle-class.aspx

 

[NontradCA]

Again -- paying for dance lessons or swimming lessons is a definite LUXURY. If you can't see that - then I can't help you. Apparently if one doesn't have personalized dance/swimming lessons the only other option is watching tv.

I didn't ask for your "help". We'll just agree to disagree. I think kids should have ECs at a minimum. Whether it be dance/swim/basketball/music.

 

[DermViser]

20 years ago?

And it's not like this is Cali, it's the queen city in the south. And those are beginning where the Y bases their rate on your income. Do you think you'd be getting a cheaper price being of the "middle class"?

Did you not see the part where she Googled and saw around the same price?

 

[NontradCA]

Did you not see the part where she Googled and saw around the same price?

Did you not see the part where I informed her how YMCA prices work?

 

[DermViser]

I didn't ask for your "help". We'll just agree to disagree. I think kids should have ECs at a minimum. Whether it be dance/swim/basketball/music.

We'll just have to then since you can't distinguish being involved in ECs outside of school w/o personalized lessons.

 

[Winged Scapula]

20 years ago?

Yes which is why I said I didn't know the going rate and why I Googled it.

And it's not like this is Cali, it's the queen city in the south. And those are beginning where the Y bases their rate on your income. Do you think you'd be getting a cheaper price being of the "middle class"?

I understand but I'm simply stating that your experience may not be the rule. There are communities where swim lessons are subsidized more heavily.

 

[DermViser]

I guess it's not only me if only 42% think they are in the middle class, which is consistent with my number..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159029/americans-likely-say-belong-middle-class.aspx

Are you seriously saying that people now are middle class bc they THINK they are middle class? There is a reason we use numbers. Try telling the IRS that you should pay a lower rate, bc you THINK you are in a lower tax bracket.

 

[NontradCA]

Yes which is why I said I didn't know the going rate and why I Googled it.



I understand but I'm simply stating that your experience may not be the rule. There are communities where swim lessons are subsidized more heavily.

Maybe, but I've lived in all of the places mentioned in this debate so far and that's what I've seen.

 

[W19]

I never thought putting your kids in some ECs that cost $80/month was a luxury for a middle class family.. Basically, as long as you have a shelter and you can eat, you belong to the middle class... then almost everyone is in the middle class.

 

[NontradCA]

We'll just have to then since you can't distinguish being involved in ECs outside of school w/o personalized lessons.

I never said that. And as an aside, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[W19]

Are you seriously saying that people now are middle class bc they THINK they are middle class? There is a reason we use numbers. Try telling the IRS that you should pay a lower rate, bc you THINK you are in a lower tax bracket.

My answer was to @circulus vitios that I am the only one with that viewpoint, which is clearly not the case...

 

[Mad Jack]

20 years ago?

And it's not like this is Cali, it's the queen city in the south. And those are beginning where the Y bases their rate on your income. Do you think you'd be getting a cheaper price being of the "middle class"?

In SF (the most expensive YMCA I could possibly think to look up), the YMCA charges $58 for a month of children's swimming lessons. In the city. For anyone that is a member, not on a sliding scale. If you're a non-member, $88, whoa. Gonna break the bank, no middle class family could ever afford a once-a-lifetime $88 fee on 60k per year. And there's a million other things you can do at the YMCA as ECs that are cheap as balls to boot. Or, you know, you could do non-structured things with your kids while they aren't at school. You know, actually spend time with them.

http://www.ymcasf.org/presidio/what_we_offer/for_kids_and_families/in_the_water

 

[NontradCA]

In SF (the most expensive YMCA I could possibly think to look up), the YMCA charges $58 for a month of children's swimming lessons. In the city. For anyone that is a member, not on a sliding scale. If you're a non-member, $88, whoa. Gonna break the bank, no middle class family could ever afford a once-a-lifetime $88 fee on 60k per year. And there's a million other things you can do at the YMCA as ECs that are cheap as balls to boot. Or, you know, you could do non-structured things with your kids while they aren't at school. You know, actually spend time with them.

http://www.ymcasf.org/presidio/what_we_offer/for_kids_and_families/in_the_water

I'm not arguing that they can not afford it. I'm arguing that it's a "luxury" and pointing out what she said is inaccurate. Let's just say a family has 2 kids (probably the average, if not less). That's $190 like I said. So thanks for proving my point.

 

[DermViser]

I never said that. And as an aside, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I said dance lessons were a luxury and wasn't being unable to breathe financially. Your immediate response was: "Yea, we should just put them in front of the TV." That speaks quite clearly.

 

[DermViser]

I never thought putting your kids in some ECs that cost $80/month was a luxury for a middle class family.. Basically, as long as you have a shelter and you can eat, you belong to the middle class... then almost everyone is in the middle class.

$960 dollars per year is chump change to you?

 

[NontradCA]

I said dance lessons were a luxury and wasn't being unable to breathe financially. Your immediate response was: "Yea, we should just put them in front of the TV." That speaks quite clearly.

Dance lessons and "personalized" dance lessons are two different things. Dance is like an other sport, and if I could have my way, it would be advocated as much as basketball and softball is for kids.

 

[DermViser]

In SF (the most expensive YMCA I could possibly think to look up), the YMCA charges $58 for a month of children's swimming lessons. In the city. For anyone that is a member, not on a sliding scale. If you're a non-member, $88, whoa. Gonna break the bank, no middle class family could ever afford a once-a-lifetime $88 fee on 60k per year. And there's a million other things you can do at the YMCA as ECs that are cheap as balls to boot. Or, you know, you could do non-structured things with your kids while they aren't at school. You know, actually spend time with them.

http://www.ymcasf.org/presidio/what_we_offer/for_kids_and_families/in_the_water

Nope - it's either lessons or sit in front of the tv. No other options. Sorry.

 

[DermViser]

Dance lessons and "personalized" dance lessons are two different things. Dance is like an other sport, and if I could have my way, it would be advocated as much as basketball and softball is for kids.

Dance is a luxury. Getting exercise or playing sports does not require lessons.

 

[NontradCA]

Dance is a luxury. Getting exercise or playing sports does not require lessons.

To you it is. And yea, sports require lessons. Have you ever played a sport?

 

[W19]

$960 dollars per year is chump change to you?

It' a lot now since I am in med school... Med school cut my family income to half of what it was.

 

[W19]

According to my sociology prof (10 years ago): middle class family is a family living a suburbia that can afford to pay a little ECs for their kids and can take one vacation a year... That was how he defined it.. Though he admitted there were various definition out there... But to him that was a logical one...

 

[DermViser]

It' a lot now since I am in med school... Med school cut my family income to half.

Well then imagine for a middle class family how much $960 per year is and they aren't even going to med school. I'm assuming your parents are paying your med school tuition in full.

 

[DermViser]

According to my sociology prof (10 years ago): middle class family is a family living a suburbia that can afford to pay a little ECs for their kids and can take one vacation a year... That was how he defined it.. Though he admitted there were various definition out there... But to him that was a logical one...

I prefer using actual income numbers. Makes it easier that way and w/o confounders.

 

[W19]

Well then imagine for a middle class family how much $960 per year is and they aren't even going to med school. I'm assuming your parents are paying your med school tuition in full.

Noooooooo... I am a non trad student with kids.. Lol

 

[DermViser]

Noooooooo... I am a non trad student with kids.. Lol

A non-trad student with kids wouldn't keep a diary.

 

[W19]

A non-trad student with kids wouldn't keep a diary.

I actually did... Lol. You are really having fun with that stuff.

 

[Mad Jack]

According to my sociology prof (10 years ago): middle class family is a family living a suburbia that can afford to pay a little ECs for their kids and can take one vacation a year... That was how he defined it.. Though he admitted there were various definition out there... But to him that was a logical one...

Endless ECs are a relatively BS modern addition to the upper-middle class lifestyle. Little League baseball/football/basketball all cost $60 per season back where I grew up in Washington. We've already gone over how dirt cheap swimming lessons are. There's plenty of free ECs offered through schools and inexpensive ECs offered through places like the YMCA. So far as vacations, a week-long vacation once a year isn't all that hard to afford, so long as you're not flying internationally. It's not like people are dying in the gutters on 60k a year, lol. They live normal, average American lives.

 

[DermViser]

I actually did... Lol.

What? Being a non-trad with children or having a diary?

 

[DermViser]

Endless ECs are a relatively BS modern addition to the upper-middle class lifestyle. Little League baseball/football/basketball all cost $60 per season back where I grew up in Washington. We've already gone over how dirt cheap swimming lessons are. There's plenty of free ECs offered through schools and inexpensive ECs offered through places like the YMCA. So far as vacations, a week-long vacation once a year isn't all that hard to afford, so long as you're not flying internationally. It's not like people are dying in the gutters on 60k a year, lol. They live normal, average American lives.

This.

 

[W19]

Endless ECs are a relatively BS modern addition to the upper-middle class lifestyle. Little League baseball/football/basketball all cost $60 per season back where I grew up in Washington. We've already gone over how dirt cheap swimming lessons are. There's plenty of free ECs offered through schools and inexpensive ECs offered through places like the YMCA. So far as vacations, a week-long vacation once a year isn't all that hard to afford, so long as you're not flying internationally. It's not like people are dying in the gutters on 60k a year, lol. They live normal, average American lives.

You guys distort everything I said... My family is living on a 55k/year now and we are fine... but besides paying for basic living expenses, we can't not afford squat... and no car payment.

 

[W19]

What? Being a non-trad with children or having a diary?

I had my own reason... But since my concerns were somewhat addressed, I felt like it was not a productive use of my time and energy...

 

[DermViser]

You guys distort everything I said... My family is living on a 55k/year now and we are fine... but besides paying for basic living expenses, we can't not afford squat... and no car payment.

They are also paying your tuition in full now. They weren't making 55 K per year before you went to med school.