U of Q and Ochsner clinic

[igcgnerd]

Has anyone heard of this program. Is it legit and actually affiliated with the university or some scam site?

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[gmacpac]

Has anyone heard of this program. Is it legit and actually affiliated with the university or some scam site?

post a link.

 

[gmacpac]

Yes its legit, as a matter of fact, its probably a better option for those who want to come back to USA after med school.

This looks similar to carribean route.

http://www.mededpath.org/internationalpathways/

 

[neulite]

As an American citizen this looks interesting. Funny how this was never mentioned to me by the school or OzTREKK. However, if you read the homepage it states that it has yet to be accredited.

On a side note, I can see why this program would be developed. New Orleans, for those who haven't been there, is another world on its own and is in need of some serious healthcare. It's not like any other US city and is very poor and has a high crime rate, particularly since Katrina.

 

[gmacpac]

I dont think they will have much trouble getting accreditation. But keep in mind that we will still be considered FMGs after graduation.

 

[pharmacytechguy]

Did this program just start? Will this coming January 2009 be the first class? I emailed them with a few questions, no response. The application form is not even specific to the medical school, and the "Admissions" link is dead.
Hmmm

 

[gmacpac]

Did this program just start? Will this coming January 2009 be the first class? I emailed them with a few questions, no response. The application form is not even specific to the medical school, and the "Admissions" link is dead.
Hmmm

I dont know how the admission's process is going to be for this program, but they are accepting apps for January 2009 class.

 

[Zuckman]

Seems pretty good to me! I think it's just for Americans though. Hopefully Canadians will have a chance to do some rotations there. Seems like fun!

 

[greens]

I think that program seems like a great idea. I actually did a rotation at University Hospital in New Orleans through LSU this past April/May and it was awesome. New Orleans is still a great place to go to (was there also in 99) and I think the attitude of people has become even more relaxed post Katrina cause they seem to only care about what's really important. I mean where else do you get off of your 12 hr night shift ed run at 7:00am and get asked by all the residents to join them for beers and burgers. Plus nowhere else in the world can you get as good of food or a better music scene. And yes although crime is higher then some cities, I really didn't feel like it was any different from other major American cities and I'm a 5'2" 100lb white girl. You just learn what areas you don't go to at night by yourself/ etc just like anywhere else in the world. I know if I was just starting out medical school instead of almost finishing I would have definitely considered this.

Does it give you access to the best of both worlds? American/Australian registration?

 

[redshifteffect]

Does it give you access to the best of both worlds? American/Australian registration?

If the goal was to stay in Australia you'd have to be careful about this program. The main reason being that even if you were able to complete your internship in Australia (and I don't see why you couldn't since UQ is giving you an MBBS) you'd have done all your clinicals in the US. While that would be great for someone returning to the US (US LORs) it would be very difficult to then get further training in Oz.

I'd say at least 50-60% of your application for any positions in Oz is all about LORs (from Australian doctors) and connections. You'd have pretty much no chance of getting any of those if you did all your clinicals in the US.

If you want to keep both options open you'd still be better off organising US clinicals in your summer holidays yourself.

Also don't some states have issues with you doing your core clinicals outside of the country you graduated from? It's been a while since I kept abreast of US laws, but last I remember this was causing issues with Californian registration?

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I would be cautious about this, some States are very picky about where you complete your clinicals, it could hurt you licensure possiblities. There is a lot of conflicting info saying that the program is LCME accredited, I seriously doubt this.

 

[Live4Life]

I don't know if I would request to be a part of the first cohort due to this disclaimer on their website.

Important Message to Prospective Students:

This M.B.B.S. program (with 2 years of pre-clinical education at University of Queensland in Australia and 2 years of clinical instruction at Ochsner in Louisiana) (the "Program") is subject to approval by the Australian Medical Council (AMC). The University of Queensland has submitted to the AMC an application for accreditation of the Program. Until the AMC completes its review of the Program, Queensland will accept students eligible for the Program into Queensland's four-year M.B.B.S. program in Australia. In the event that the AMC does not timely accredit the Program, students who enroll will be expected to complete their four-year medical education at University of Queensland in Brisbane.

If you really have you sights set on doing your clinicals in the US, it would probably be wise to wait until accreditation is obtained.

 

[igcgnerd]

It didn't say it was LCME accredited. It was saying that the accreditation for the AMC is similar to the standards of the LCME. As to doing clinicals outside of the country, the big three Caribbean schools all do clinicals here and they have no problems getting licensed in all 50 states.

 

[Zuckman]

I like how UQ is getting affiliations in the US. It opens doors for some students and makes things easier in many ways.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It didn't say it was LCME accredited. It was saying that the accreditation for the AMC is similar to the standards of the LCME. As to doing clinicals outside of the country, the big three Caribbean schools all do clinicals here and they have no problems getting licensed in all 50 states.

The Caribbean schools are a different breed because those countries do not have the infrastructure to support training medical students on their hospitals. First World countries like Oz do not have that situation and therefore, you would be expected to do your Clinicals in the country in which your school is located. Apples and oranges.

 

[gmacpac]

My initial reaction to this program was very positive. I thought that by doing 2 yrs of rotations in USA, residency match will be much easier of those who want to come back to USA. I have even compared this to the carribean programs, and I think in many ways UQ is trying to accomplish what Carribean schools have done.

However, the more I think about the possibility of this program being put in place, the more concerned I get about the quality of students coming to UQ.

I personally chose UQ because I knew that I will be getting a great education and I will be proud of the institution I will have graduated from. If UQ is to turn into a massive "doctor producing" operation (which it may after approval of this program) I am not sure how much pride am I going to take on my training.

In the end does it matter? No! A doctor is a doctor. Right? Right! But I guess I am a little uncomfortable with the idea of going to an "off shore" program rather than a truly "International" institution.

Just thinking out loud at midnight. Dont take this personally

 

[redshifteffect]

AMC accredidation is a tricky beast. I too would also be cautious as something like this has to my knowledge never been done.

Even if approved, that decision could easily be reversed (as happend with full fee paying local students) and then you would be left in a tricky situation. As Kim pointed out, we also don't know what effect this will have on licensing in the US.

If doing US clinicals is that important, there's always the tried and tested route of the Caribbean unis.

You'll note from the following link that Caribbean schools have to obtain licensure from the Californian medical board:

http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/licensure-certification.html

Whether this is because of them doing clinical rotations in the US or not, I can't say. However I wonder if this sort of situation would apply to the new UQ program?

 

[Zuckman]

I think the program can be a great opportunity for the students (especially American students). UQ will never be like the Caribbean schools. This is because UQ can stand on its own with world-class health care facilities and research opportunities. Also, the majority of the class consists of local students who often choose UQ as their first choice.

 

[Zuckman]

I think right now, not many students will be admitted to this program. I think Australians and Canadians can still do clinicals at Ochsner, but not 2 years. Not sure though..

 

[gmacpac]

The program is advertising availability of 20 seats for the January 09 class. So there is still room for more applicants.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I would honestly avoid this program, UQ already now allows you to do up to 6 months of electives overseas, that is more than enough to get American LORs.
States like California expect you to do you core rotations in the country where the medical school is located, thats why so many people who went to English language programs in Poland cannot practice in California. Also read carefully, it said the program is subject to AMC accreditation, and if the process fails you will have to complete all four years in Queensland. I am starting to get really annoyed with the administration at UQ, it seems as if they want to turn the school into a diploma mill. The other schools have not increased spaces for internationals.

 

[gmacpac]

I would honestly avoid this program, UQ already now allows you to do up to 6 months of electives overseas, that is more than enough to get American LORs.
States like California expect you to do you core rotations in the country where the medical school is located, thats why so many people who went to English language programs in Poland cannot practice in California. Also read carefully, it said the program is subject to AMC accreditation, and if the process fails you will have to complete all four years in Queensland. I am starting to get really annoyed with the administration at UQ, it seems as if they want to turn the school into a diploma mill. The other schools have not increased spaces for internationals.

I hate to say this, but I agree with Joenamma about UQ turning into a "diploma miil".

I am starting to have second thougths about the program.

 

[Zuckman]

I wouldn't want to be the 1st year of students to go through this new program. There are too many things that could go wrong. It's better to do most clinicals in Australia and do a few in North America I think.

I think the new program has lots of potential for great things though. I think more schools should do this.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

First of all UQ eliminated admissions interviews, every other Graduate Entry program in Australia requires it as an interview. The admissions people claim that it does not identify the best applicants. I disagree, there is a lot of research at McMaster in Canada that claims that the MMI, the interview format at McMaster as well as several medical schools in the US and Australia, can identify the best potential candidates for medical school. Then they increased the student intake, my year, it was about 60 students from overseas, for 2009, they have at least 100, for grand total of 400 students in one year, that is huge. Now this program just sounds plain dodgy, they are pairing with a private health care system in the US, it would be different if they were pairing with another Allopathic medical school in the US.

 

[Sohcahtoa]

I hate to say this, but I agree with Joenamma about UQ turning into a "diploma miil".

I am starting to have second thougths about the program.

Do you mind elaborating on what is giving you second thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[Zuckman]

I think the whole lack of interviews is because they don't want to waste the resources.

The way I see it, either go with the MMI or no interview at all. I don't believe in the traditional type interview. I've been through both the MMI (at McMaster) and the traditional one in Canada. I have to say the MMI is MUCH better. At most of my traditional ones, the panel couldn't care less about what I was saying. It was incredibly unprofessional. The MMI though is great! Same questions are asked for all the applicants so it's very standardized. I have to say it was very fair! Although I think that some of the stations were a bit bogus.

I don't think the interview is needed though. I got accepted in the UK without an interview at the University of Leeds. They just don't want the international applicants to have to come all the way to Leeds just for an interview.

I do like how Sydney does it...MMI in Vancouver. Pretty nice! A few years ago though, Sydney didn't have the MMI and the stats of entering internationals wasn't too high at all. Now that the program is well established, the quality of the applicants have significantly increased.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

USyd has been fairly selective for a while, the thing that helps North Americans is that they do not count the GPA into their calculation of suitable candidates.

 

[gmacpac]

Do you mind elaborating on what is giving you second thoughts?

Thanks.

I, like other USA students, looked into carribean schools. What turned me away from them was that, to me, they looked more like institutions selling a degree, looking for clients without much regard or care of establishing a heritage of graduating quality clinicians. Sure, majority of Carribean graduates end up matching in a residency spot. But 30 years down the road when residency match and the choice of medical school will not matter much, will they (Carribean grads) really look at their medical school experience as an accomplishment to be proud of? Or as a true life long experience?

I personally didn't think that I would have those thoughts about my medical education if I was to attend a Carribean program.

Unfortunately, I am begining to think of UQ more in terms of "another off shore" school.

Where's the unique attraction of UQ? Why does UQ feel the need to collaborate with a private healthcare group in USA? What's UQ's objective in doing this? Is it to produce more physicians to address the current physician shortage in rural USA (I highly doubt this one), or is it to increase its revenues by attracting more applicants?

This conversation is far too philosophical to discuss on an online board. Nonetheless, I think UQ is denigrating its value by opening this program. Sure it will get more applications, and therefore, it will offer more seats to USA applicants. But is that really its motto? How is this proposed program addressing the need of Australian health system? After all, UQ is an Australian institution which is primarily aiming to educate Australian physicians
Just a few questions to chow down on.

 

[redshifteffect]

I agree with gmacpac on this point. The aim of any government funded medical school in Australia should be to graduate quality Australian doctors. I understand the financial incentive in accepting international students, but it shouldn't come at the cost of compromising their standards.

There is a big difference between doing electives in another country and doing all your core rotations in another country. How can you seriously say that a graduate of this program would have any clue about the Australian health system? Although the general management of patients is similar all over the world, the mechanics of the American and Australian health systems are vastly different. I'd have to question just how well acquainted a graduate of this program would be with the Australian health system.

Also 400 is extremely unreasonable for a graduating class. Unless they have the facilities in place to actually provide these students with relevant clinical experience, I would hate to see this class out in the real world.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I just think this is completely stupid, I already did three months of electives at Northwestern U in Chicago, that happens to be one of the best US medical schools. Why is UQ doing this? They plan only to admit 20 students to this program anyway, so its not going to create enough revenue.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

If the goal was to stay in Australia you'd have to be careful about this program.

Much agreed. Be forewarned.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

It didn't say it was LCME accredited. It was saying that the accreditation for the AMC is similar to the standards of the LCME.

Well... if they truely wanted the program to be respected and have graduates more easily work in the US afterwards... Why not simply get LCME accreditation in the first place. Why not just keep all students in Queensland for ALL clinicals and simply have the AMC develop an accreditation reciprocity program with LCME/ACGME like in Canada. Wouldn't that make a lot more sense and be easier?

I think this program is a horrible idea. I don't know whoever came up with this, but I feel it will put UQ in a horrible light internationally and reduce their image to that of Carribean schools. thumbdown This is not the way to go! I hope it doesn't get approved.

Again, they should simply be working on developing a mutual accreditation agreement with LCME/ACGME instead!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

UQ will never be like the Caribbean schools. This is because UQ can stand on its own with world-class health care facilities and research opportunities. Also, the majority of the class consists of local students who often choose UQ as their first choice.

I agree with you... which is why it would be silly to leave UQ to head to the clinic in the states. This is ridiculous and a bad idea.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Soon they will have a redneck medical degree, Queensland and Louisiana, makes sense. LOL.

 

[Ezekiel20]

If the goal was to stay in Australia you'd have to be careful about this program. The main reason being that even if you were able to complete your internship in Australia (and I don't see why you couldn't since UQ is giving you an MBBS) you'd have done all your clinicals in the US. While that would be great for someone returning to the US (US LORs) it would be very difficult to then get further training in Oz.

I'd say at least 50-60% of your application for any positions in Oz is all about LORs (from Australian doctors) and connections. You'd have pretty much no chance of getting any of those if you did all your clinicals in the US.

This is false information IMO.

If this program is AMC accredited (ie treated as an Australian medical school curriculum), then you'd have no problems getting a spot as an intern in Australia, as you'd be a local student.

And while it is true that you need LORs to apply for training positions, you need LORs from your internship and RMO years, not during your student rotations.

No local student asks their supervisors for LORs after completing a rotation as a student. You might say 'why not?', but it just doesn't happen.

Someone could go through this programme and choose to stay in Aus, and have just as much chance as any other local student of getting into competitive training programmes.

 

[redshifteffect]

No offence, but have you applied for any speciality programs? I've applied for two, and used about 50% of the references that I got from my student years. For GP (AGPT/GPET) the only requirement was having "worked" or known the referee for 10 weeks or more. Even the 10 week rule was flexible, as not all medical student rotations/intern rotations are 10 weeks in length (ours certainly weren't). I used 2/3 referees for that application that I acquired in my medical school days. For NSW Path, you had to not only submit the LOR but they also took their contact details and gave them a call, and in some cases (selectively) picked a random referee to fill in a standarised referee form. 1/3 for that application was a medical school acquired referee. I like to have a good stable of referees so that I can rotate them around for the various applications. I applied for 3 resident jobs (all of which I got) as well this year for general training, and needed a different group of 3 referees. Again at least 1 of those (per application) was one that I acquired during my medical student days. So unless your classmates are oblivious to how the world works, they probably know they would need a referee at some point after graduation. So why not think ahead and collect them when you have the most free time (as a student)?

Whats important is good LORs, its even more important then when they were obtained. Thus in most cases a good LOR from your internship years is more important then an average one obtained as a registrar.

Having seen the system from the inside, most of it is about references. LORs from the US are definitely not useful for Oz applications. Especially for the new SET program where more then 50% of the application is your LORs. Although it might be possible to apply in theory for a job in Oz after this program, you would be making your life very difficult.
I, as a local "international" student accumulated a lot of LORs after my rotations. If you don't think ahead (and try and do your best so that you get noticed and get a good LOR) you will have trouble impressing them down the road. As a student, attending and knowing a bit is good enough to get a good LOR. As an intern or a resident you have to do a lot more to impress your boss. As a registrar its really hard to get an excellent LOR, as the expectations are much higher.

If this program is AMC accredited (ie treated as an Australian medical school curriculum), then you'd have no problems getting a spot as an intern in Australia, as you'd be a local student.
Isn't that what I said above? Did you even read the part of my post you quoted?
The main reason being that even if you were able to complete your internship in Australia (and I don't see why you couldn't since UQ is giving you an MBBS) you'd have done all your clinicals in the US.

 

[hwi]

I have been watching for a few days how much incorrect info is spread by future docs. It's amazing.

Caribbean School Comparisons are Wrong - This is a U.S. model education. 2 years Basic Sci (pre clinicals) at a med school followed by 2 years at a clinical facility, all students using a single curriculum under the supervision of the med school. (Just like Harvard, NYU or UCLA). The Caribbean schools send clinical students out in 2's, 3's 6's and 12's all over the place to various clinical facilities, each with its own (or no developed) curriculum - all with little or no supervision by the med school. As a matter of fact, this is the consistent rap against Carib schools, while some have good basic sciences - all have inferior clinical education. And these days many of our Caribbean student counterparts are finding no clinicals available and/or long waits between clinicals. Clearly the UQ / Ochsner affiliation is more like a top U.S. school and nothing like the Caribbean schools.

Education Quality and Class Size - Education quality, among other things, is a function of admissions standards. My discussions with admissions have indicated that they are not reducing standards of entry for this program. In fact they expect to attract some of the best students available who might have gone to a U.S. school but prefer a more global experience. As to class size, UQ works with a PBL model that breaks down into groups of approximately 10. Nowhere has anyone ever shown that more groups will diminish the quality of the education for another group. Finally, one of the requirements of the Australian Medical Council (AMC) to receive ongoing accreditation is maintaining education quality. UQ has to maintain its quality or will not receive accreditation.

LCME Recognition and Accreditation - I thought this group wanted to be docs. Don't jump to conclusions, do your research and analysis first. The LCME only recognizes North American (U.S. and Canadian) schools. Therefore, UQ could not be recognized. However, the National Council on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA), a U.S. government division, recognizes the Australian Medical Council (AMC) as having standards equivalent to the U.S. accrediting standards. This is the highest available U.S. recognition of a foreign school. It is one of the factors that makes eligible students able to receive U.S. Stafford loans.

I don't have any suggestions for where anyone should go to school. But it is reasonable to expect future docs to do the research and may well informed decisions. I certainly would want that to be a procedure for all my doctors.

 

[Ezekiel20]

Sorry but getting LORs from rotations as a student is simply unheard of here in Sydney. I have an interest in a surgical career, and was told by Prof. Harris of RPAH that if that is the case then I should start collecting LORs ('referee reports' as it is called in Aus) from my 1st rotation as an intern, as the referee reports are an important part of the selection process (along with structured CV and interview).

And no, myself and my classmates are not oblivious to how the world works. Given that PGY3 is usually the earliest time that you can start specialty training (except GP and path which you can start as PGY2 in theory, but is apparently difficult in practice), you've got 2 years during which you'll work 10 different rotations - this is more than enough to collect all the referee reports you'll need.

Getting good referee reports as an intern/RMO isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. You hardly see the consultant, and unless you are lazy or incompetent, your registrars will put in a good word for you and you'll get good referee reports. At least this has been my experience at Nepean/Westmead hospital rotations for the last 2 years.

My main disagreements with what you said are as follows:

If the goal was to stay in Australia you'd have to be careful about this program. The main reason being that even if you were able to complete your internship in Australia (and I don't see why you couldn't since UQ is giving you an MBBS) you'd have done all your clinicals in the US. While that would be great for someone returning to the US (US LORs) it would be very difficult to then get further training in Oz.

if you do internship and RMO years in Aus, you have the same chance as any other local student of getting into specialty training

I'd say at least 50-60% of your application for any positions in Oz is all about LORs (from Australian doctors) and connections. You'd have pretty much no chance of getting any of those if you did all your clinicals in the US.

As I said above, one would have much better than 'pretty much no chance' of getting positions in Aus after internship/RMO years in Australia.

Say what you like, but local students in Australia do not collect referee reports as students. I can fully understand why NA students collect them, as they never know what the gov't will do next to disadvantage them.

So basically I disagreed with your assertion that doing this program would kill off your chances of doing specialty training of one's choice in Aus.

 

[redshifteffect]

GP, Path, Psychiatry, BPT - all of these can be started PGY2 in practice. I got into both GP and Path. NSW is the most difficult path program to get into. If it's so "difficult" to get into these programs PGY2 then how is this possible that I got into both? I have no PR, no Citizenship, and other then attending some of the Pathology sessions at the hospital this year virtually no experience, yet I was able to get the jobs over residents and registrars with much more experience.

I'm sorry Ezekiel, but you're arm chairing this discussion, and while I value your input I think it's misguided. Based on my experience having LORs (or referee reports and you rightly pointed out) as a student is very useful. Trust me having a good one from a reputable Australian doctor (that they can actually talk to) is going to get you much more credit then having an international one.

Most places will only accept referee report from Consultants - this was actually stipulated by NSW Path. So you're telling me that they would prefer a referee report from your registrar over a consultant? LOL sorry but that made me laugh. It doesn't matter how good a "word" your registrar puts in for you, if an equal candidate has a referee report from a Consultant with good research and international reputation, that will have much more weight. On the other hand, a great referee report from a registrar will certainly be more valuable then a poor one from a consultant (provided they accept registrar reports).

During your internship rotations, you will be extremely busy. Most times you would be lucky to have enough chances to really interact with the consultants. I'm not sure how you plan on getting excellent LORs by seeing them on ward rounds in the morning? As a student you have the opportunity to actually follow them to their rooms, or even scrub in with them. Again much easier to make a good impression then as an intern or resident. Plus the best part is it's very hard to 'screw up' since you have no virtually no responsibility, not as easy to stand out when you actually have some responsibility (though as you do point out you can do it).

Anyway Ezekiel, I'm sure you have it all worked out, and maybe your method will work. All I know is mine did. But this is a public forum, and people are free to take or leave the advice as they see fit.

As for local students not collecting LORs, maybe they should start, because how else was a international student able to beat them out in the job application process?

Best of luck to you in your Surgical Aspirations.

 

[Ezekiel20]

Obviously neither you nor I will go and do this Oschner programme at UQ.

However people reading this forum to make decisions about their career should hear both sides of the story, take both with a grain of salt, and make their own decisions.

So I am posting what I know to be true, based on what I've seen at my hospitals and the people I've talked to (and not just some random person on the internet, but professors in some of the big Sydney hospitals some of whom are on the committee for selection of trainees, as well as people who recently got onto competitive training schemes like ENT/ortho/ophthal).

You clearly take the position that you are correct and I am wrong, but I still maintain that the idea that referee reports from student years are necessary to get into training schemes (and therefore to do all US rotations means great difficulty getting a spot in Aus) is misguided.

This argument went on for longer than I initially intended, and I think I'll end my contribution here.

Good luck in your path career, hopefully one day I rely on your opinion to make clinical decisions.

 

[redshifteffect]

Ezekiel,

I never said you were wrong, only misguided. There are many ways to skin a cat, again as you have pointed out. However my advice is simply the one that I see as the "easiest" with the most chance of success.

To make this discussion more relevant, you should also probably declare your own "situation". You are a local student, and thus even if you were at the bottom of your class (and I'm not saying that you are) had subpar references, and did nothing through medical school, you would still be able to get a job somewhere.

That is not the case for international students. Until we get a PR, we are by law supposed to only get jobs where there are no suitable local students (this of course can also be bypassed as my situation demonstrates). I think anyone reading this topic should keep your situation and their own in mind.

With the coming flood of medical graduates their situation will only be that much more difficult. Anything that they can do to give themselves a leg up will only help them in the future.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I have been watching for a few days how much incorrect info is spread by future docs. It's amazing.

Caribbean School Comparisons are Wrong - This is a U.S. model education. 2 years Basic Sci (pre clinicals) at a med school followed by 2 years at a clinical facility, all students using a single curriculum under the supervision of the med school. (Just like Harvard, NYU or UCLA). The Caribbean schools send clinical students out in 2's, 3's 6's and 12's all over the place to various clinical facilities, each with its own (or no developed) curriculum - all with little or no supervision by the med school. As a matter of fact, this is the consistent rap against Carib schools, while some have good basic sciences - all have inferior clinical education. And these days many of our Caribbean student counterparts are finding no clinicals available and/or long waits between clinicals. Clearly the UQ / Ochsner affiliation is more like a top U.S. school and nothing like the Caribbean schools.

Education Quality and Class Size - Education quality, among other things, is a function of admissions standards. My discussions with admissions have indicated that they are not reducing standards of entry for this program. In fact they expect to attract some of the best students available who might have gone to a U.S. school but prefer a more global experience. As to class size, UQ works with a PBL model that breaks down into groups of approximately 10. Nowhere has anyone ever shown that more groups will diminish the quality of the education for another group. Finally, one of the requirements of the Australian Medical Council (AMC) to receive ongoing accreditation is maintaining education quality. UQ has to maintain its quality or will not receive accreditation.

LCME Recognition and Accreditation - I thought this group wanted to be docs. Don't jump to conclusions, do your research and analysis first. The LCME only recognizes North American (U.S. and Canadian) schools. Therefore, UQ could not be recognized. However, the National Council on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA), a U.S. government division, recognizes the Australian Medical Council (AMC) as having standards equivalent to the U.S. accrediting standards. This is the highest available U.S. recognition of a foreign school. It is one of the factors that makes eligible students able to receive U.S. Stafford loans.

I don't have any suggestions for where anyone should go to school. But it is reasonable to expect future docs to do the research and may well informed decisions. I certainly would want that to be a procedure for all my doctors.

Hwi is a new user with only one previous post. Hmm.. looks sus to me! Hwi: you sure you don't work for UQ or for the Ochsner clinic and popped onto SDN to defend your little "project"? If so, then please just admit it so we can ask you some straight questions. Fair? How much of a % of the tuition fees for this program are you receiving by the way?

Canada and the USA are also two different countries, yet their medical schools are equally accredited and mutually accepted. Postgraduate training programs are overseen by completely separate governing bodies in Canada (Specialty Colleges similar to Australia) and the US (ACGME); yet both countries have developed a mutual agreement to recognize the other countries accreditation system. They allow graduates of either country to apply for and compete in each other system's as "local graduates". Australia and New Zealand have a similar agreement.

It would be totally possible for the AMC and the LCME to meet and develop a mutual recognition of accreditation process. (if the powers at be wished to do this).

You say that the AMC and the LCME have equivalent accreditation standards. However, if the AMC is willing to accredit a medical program that has the final 2 years in the US but the LCME is NOT going to equally accredit this very same program.. then all your really saying is that the AMC is more flexible with what they are willing to accept/accredit than the LCME (i.e.: the AMC has lower standards). Careful what you say!

Yes, this program would be a little more organised than a carribean medical school, but more or less the idea is the same. 2 years preclinical overseas, and 2 years clinical in a US hospital. The program (if it gets AMC accreditation) will allow its graduates to apply for Australian/NZ internship spots... BUT I'm sure that Australian hospitals would prefer graduates who spent most of their clinical years in Australia/NZ hospitals over a graduate of this program as they would have obtained a more applicable clinical experience for an Australian/NZ internship. So, in that respect... anyone who wishes to stay in Australia/NZ to train/practice should NOT consider applying to this program.

This program ONLY helps a few US students who couldn't get into med school back home and who don't care about working in Australia and who only want to get back to work in the US, as it would allow them to get slightly more US clinical experience (than the 6 months already allowed in the UQ program for overseas clinically which is honestly plenty IMOH). However, this would make the program structurally not much different than a Caribbean program. This in itself would (whether you like it or not) lower the image of UQ med school to a Caribbean diploma mill. You don't see med schools like Cambridge,Oxford,Harvard, Yale, etc shipping out their graduates overseas for the final 2-3 years of their training.

I have an idea... why not develop a relationship an accredited LCME US/Canadian med school and have a cohort of 20 graduates from their school spend the final 2 years of their program in an Australian hospital? Have both programs dual accredited. Then you may have something. Or better yet, as I said before.. simply have the AMC develop a nationwide mutual accreditation agreement with the US and Canada. (AMC and LCME reciprocal agreement) This would mean that a graduate from ANY Aus/NZ medical school could compete as a "local grad" in Can/US; and a graduate from ANY Can/US med school could compete as a "local grad" in Aus/NZ. This would be much easier and achieve the same goals and be a lot more respectable.

Bottom line: The program as is currently conceptualized to accept US applicants, give them 2 years of preclinical sciences and then ship them back to the states to a private US clinic for final 2 years.. not having the program accredited in the US and such a program being not ideal to allow its graduates to come back to Australia to continue training if they wished to in total is a bad idea and will create a bad name for UQ both in Australia as well as the US. It is a money making scheme by UQ that does nothing to help Australian health care.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

The LCME only recognizes North American (U.S. and Canadian) schools. Therefore, UQ could not be recognized.

Within the past 5 years most all vet schools in Australia and NZ have been accredited in the US and Canada. I don't see why they couldn't do the same for medical schools. Or like I said, better yet... develop a reciprocal mutual accreditation agreement between Aus/NZ and Can/US. Completely possible!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

However, the National Council on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA), a U.S. government division, recognizes the Australian Medical Council (AMC) as having standards equivalent to the U.S. accrediting standards. This is the highest available U.S. recognition of a foreign school. It is one of the factors that makes eligible students able to receive U.S. Stafford loans.

Even medical schools in India, Mexico, the Caribbean, etc are in this list. Nothing special. Yes, it helps because students can access stafford loans, you're correct. However, any US student can get the same stafford loans to attend medical school in the Caribbean.

You're point?

That is not the "highest available US recognition of a foreign school" -> Canada is "foreign" but not considered as such because they have... wait for it... a mutual accreditation agreement! (Mutual Reciprocity is the highest recognition of a foreign school in the US).

Again, if they were truly considered equivalent in all respects and the powers at be were interested they would simply create a reciprocal mutual accreditation agreement between the 4 countries (Aus/NZ & Can/US). Simple as that.

 

[redshifteffect]

I have been watching for a few days how much incorrect info is spread by future docs. It's amazing.

Caribbean School Comparisons are Wrong - This is a U.S. model education. 2 years Basic Sci (pre clinicals) at a med school followed by 2 years at a clinical facility, all students using a single curriculum under the supervision of the med school.

How much "supervision" can a medical school really exert when they are sending their students off to foreign soil? They aren't even in day to day contact with the clinicians at the hospital that their students are training at, and have no idea about the quality of clinical education that their students will be getting. I'm not saying it's impossible to develop the links, and to vet out the clinicians responsible for teaching, but this is only going to make the process much harder.

Actually you shot yourself in the foot with that statement. The primary aim of offshore Caribbean schools is to graduate students with "US model" education. How is this any different? These students would hardly be more prepared to work in the Australian health care system then overseas trained doctors from India or Africa (who at least share a common British style clinical education).

Education Quality and Class Size - Education quality, among other things, is a function of admissions standards. My discussions with admissions have indicated that they are not reducing standards of entry for this program. In fact they expect to attract some of the best students available who might have gone to a U.S. school but prefer a more global experience. As to class size, UQ works with a PBL model that breaks down into groups of approximately 10. Nowhere has anyone ever shown that more groups will diminish the quality of the education for another group. Finally, one of the requirements of the Australian Medical Council (AMC) to receive ongoing accreditation is maintaining education quality. UQ has to maintain its quality or will not receive accreditation.

LOL, in the next paragraph you talk about doing research, but then accept the PR spin of the University at face value! Please you could do a PBL course in a cave if you had access to some scientists, the internet and a few textbooks. The thing that distinguishes good doctors from mediocre ones is their clinical ability. How do you know what an AR sounds like if you've only read about it in a book?

For this you need access to fresh patients. Not the ones that have been picked over by scores of clinicians, medical students and nurses. They are less forthcoming to your questions and want to get the examination over asap. With 400 students in a graduating class I'd really have to question the quality of the clinical education you'd be receiving.

But that's just my 5 cents (AUD of course).

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

This program is still developing their website and have an FAQ section which they are currently in the process of putting together.

Here (Click Here) you will find a place where you can comment on this potential program and ask any questions you may have.

(sorry: I found it won't work via external links.. you will still have to click the FAQ section in the title bar on the upper right hand side)

Although I do have a gut feeling the people developing this program will still want to see this project through and will inevitably edit out any/all negative questions or comments. I still think it would be a good idea for many of us to at least submit some hard hitting questions and comments here so they can have some more information to go on before they get this project to a point of no return.

Here are some questions I asked:

Q: Will this program be accredited by the LCME? If not, how will this program be any different than a Caribbean medical program for the purpose of working in the USA?

Q: UQ is a publicly funded Australian University. Australia equally has a current physician shortage. How will this program contribute to health care in Australia?

Q: Will this program be available to Australian applicants? If not, why?

Q: After completing this program will I be equally eligible to complete my internship and apply for postgraduate medical training in Australia?

Q: Are there any LCME accredited medical schools which will allow me to do my pre-clinical years in the US and my clinical years in Australia? If not, why?


Thoughts?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Mission statement:
"The United States faces a serious shortage of physicians. In response to that need, two world class academic medical institutions, The School of Medicine of the University of Queensland, Australia, and Ochsner Health System in New Orleans, Louisiana, have joined to create a unique program for outstanding students leading to the practice of medicine in the U.S."

Here is some more information I found on their site:

"In the event that the AMC does not timely accredit the Program, students who enroll will be expected to complete their four-year medical education at University of Queensland in Brisbane.

At this time, only U.S. citizens or permanent residents are eligible to participate in the Program. Please do not submit an application form for the Program if you are ineligible to participate."

(i.e.: Australians are NOT allowed to participate!)
Q: Why should UQ med school and Queensland health allow US citizens complete their final 2-years of clinical training in their hospitals if Ochsner and Louisiana area hospitals are Not willing to allow Australian citizens to do the same?


If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about our Terms of Use, you may contact us at:

International Pathways
163 William St.
Third Floor
New York, N.Y. 10038
1-877-777-0155
[email protected]

We look forward to talking to you further about this program.

Sincerely,

Professor David Wilkinson, University of Queensland
Head of School of the University of Queensland School of Medicine
[email protected]

Dr. William Pinsky, Ochsner Health Systems, Chief Academic Officer
[email protected]


They are already advertising this program here and here to US undergrads.

Start sending in your letters of concern to the address above
Be sure to carbon copy them into your local medsoc newsletters.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

It looks like the fees are the same as the international fees for the regular UQ MBBS program. Is anyone at the Ochsner clinic $ benefiting from this project? I suppose it benefits them in the respect that they have a steady stream of high quality medical students rotating through their hospital. (I do suppose that's a difficult thing to achieve in that area as of late for many reasons)

Has the Ochsner clinic been used as a teaching hospital for any of the local Louisiana medical programs in the past? What happens 2-3 years from now if/when another hurricane hits? Will other area US hospitals absorb the UQ-Ochsner students just like other LCME students or will they be forced to return to Brisbane to finish their training?

I still think 6 months of US clinical experience (something that is already attainable in the current UQ program) is plenty if well organised in order to obtain good LORs for those US students who wish to return to the US for residency and practice. Creating a program where you spend ALL your core rotations in the US does not help THAT much more than having 6 months in this regard. If the program is still not going to be LCME accredited.. then what's the point? Why not stay in Brisbane for the regular 4 year program?

Example:JoeNamaMD an SDN user and a UQ med grad stated that he was able to complete 3 months in UQ's regular med program at Northwestern in Chicago where he was able to obtain great LORs. How could spending ALL your clinical time at Ochsner clinic be better than that?

I can only see negatives from a student's point of view. 1) it won't help much more than the regular program in terms of staying in the US afterwards and 2) on top of that it may actually hurt your chances of staying in Australia afterwards. 3) Not to mention that Queensland has in general a MUCH better living standard and lifestyle than Louisiana, and finally 4) Long term this program will clump/classify UQ Med alongside other offshore island schools aka Caribbean route for US citizens and will inevitably lower the inherent value of a UQ-MBBS degree altogether. (Bad for everyone involved)

For these reasons... I would still advice potential US applicants to just apply to the regular 4-year UQ med program instead of this one.

If this program was able to either 1) develop an agreement/exchange with an LCME accredited medical school where a similar size cohort of US students were spending all their clinical rotations in an Australian hospital or 2) if this program was able to be dual accredited by both AMC and LCME... then I would change my opinion. Until then.. I feel its a bad idea from a med student/applicant perspective.

thoughts?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Does it give you access to the best of both worlds? American/Australian registration?

NO. Until LCME accredits/approves this program you will be treated like any other overseas graduate when applying for US residency spots. You may not even be able to apply to all US states (California?). And you may even have more problems (compared to a graduate of the regular UQ med program) applying for internship and postgraduate training back in Australia should you later decide you wish to.

Now this program just sounds plain dodgy, they are pairing with a private health care system in the US, it would be different if they were pairing with another Allopathic medical school in the US.

Agreed! I personally feel they should simply develop an exchange program with an LCME accredited US/Canadian medical school. Example: Why can't a similar cohort of 20 students from LSU-NO or Tulane medical school complete their final 2 clinical years in Queensland and maintain LCME accreditation?

I personally chose UQ because I knew that I will be getting a great education and I will be proud of the institution I will have graduated from. If UQ is to turn into a massive "doctor producing" operation (which it may after approval of this program) I am not sure how much pride am I going to take on my training.

I guess I am a little uncomfortable with the idea of going to an "off shore" program rather than a truly "International" institution. I think UQ is denigrating its value by opening this program

Exactly! Much agreed.

How is this proposed program addressing the need of Australian health system? After all, UQ is an Australian institution which is primarily aiming to educate Australian physicians.

Good question! Australia also has a physician shortage. How would such a program help Australia? Again, this is where an exchange program which allowed 20 US med students to complete their final 2 years at an Australian hospital/clinic could come into play.

First World countries like Oz do not have that situation and therefore, you would be expected to do your Clinicals in the country in which your school is located.

Also don't some states have issues with you doing your core clinicals outside of the country you graduated from? It's been a while since I kept abreast of US laws, but last I remember this was causing issues with Californian registration?

Exactly, which is why this may actually prevent a graduate of this program from even being licensable in all 50 US states. Example: California

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Canada and the USA are also two different countries, yet their medical schools are equally accredited and mutually accepted. Postgraduate training programs are overseen by completely separate governing bodies in Canada (Specialty Colleges similar to Australia) and the US (ACGME); yet both countries have developed a mutual agreement to recognize the other countries accreditation system. They allow graduates of either country to apply for and compete in each other system's as "local graduates". Australia and New Zealand have a similar agreement.

It would be totally possible for the AMC and the LCME to meet and develop a mutual recognition of accreditation process. (if the powers at be wished to do this).

Here is a link to information about Canada's medical school accrediting body (CACMS) and how they work together with LCME in the US to dual accredit each other's medical schools (for mutual recognition in both countries). If they truly want to have a respectable mutual accreditation with Australia and New Zealand medical programs, then they should invite the AMC to join the round table at these meetings along side CACMS and LCME. This I feel is the only way to go properly achieve these aims.

The development of an AMC, CACMS, and LCME mutual accreditation agreement.