skeptical about aussie med schools

[redshifteffect]

Internal medicine - only 6 years if you specialise in a specific subspeciality. It's 4 if you want to do general internal medicine, but this is very rare. Most are dual trained now.

It's the same in the US. 3 years if you only want to do general internal medicine.

As for wages the US dollar flucutates widely, so it's hard to compare using currency value. What you have to keep in mind is that $40k while might give you more spending power in the US then $40k in Oz, there is no way that $40k in the US would give you more spending power then $70k in Oz. I'd still argue that you'd have the better lifestyle as a resident in Oz.

As for working hours, a lot of friends and colleagues who are undergoing/went through US training and most who have worked in both systems say that the reported hours in the US are a lot less then the true working hours. They also tell me that you get paid more for the amount of work you do in Australia then you would in the US.

Also there is no overtime in the US, so you get stuck at a basic salary regardless of how many hours you put in.

No one is arguing that US training programs are shorter (in most cases) but then again it depends on which you see as more important, putting in the longer hours to achieve the consultant job, or putting in fewer hours and having a larger balance of family/work as you complete your training.

The benefit of being an Oz graduate (as opposed to say a Caribbean graduate) is that you have a choice.

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[jaketheory]

Internal medicine - only 6 years if you specialise in a specific subspeciality. It's 4 if you want to do general internal medicine, but this is very rare. Most are dual trained now.

It's the same in the US. 3 years if you only want to do general internal medicine.

not true. obtaining fellowship of the RACP requires 6 years of RACP training. This applies to those specializing in general internal medicine as well as those pursuing subspecialties. After 3 years of basic physican training one can take the fellowship exams, but advanced training must be completed to obtain fellowship. At least one year of advanced physician training in gen medicine is required. the other 2 years can be research or in subspecialties. Many do dual training in gen medicine and a subspecialty which only requires an additional year if coordinated appropriately (total of 7 years).

As for wages the US dollar flucutates widely, so it's hard to compare using currency value.

agreed.

As for working hours, a lot of friends and colleagues who are undergoing/went through US training and most who have worked in both systems say that the reported hours in the US are a lot less then the true working hours.

I have heard from a US student that the hours can be under-reported as well.

Also there is no overtime in the US, so you get stuck at a basic salary regardless of how many hours you put in.

the 75k AUD i was quoting was including salary packaging and overtime. i realize some may make more depending on hospital and hours worked. i know that according to the internship/registrar manual available from AMSA there are internships paying only around 50k base salary which makes the 75k after overtime and packaging (the sites listed 70k after overtime) seem reasonable.

 

[redshifteffect]

Internal medicine - 4 years in Oz from what I've seen if you just want to do purely General Medicine (at least that's what I've heard)
Its 6 years if you want to do a specialisation in anything (say Cardio) or 7 if you want dual fellowship (General medicine + Fellowship)

If you do purely general medicine in the US, then yes that's true it's 3 years, but that makes you virtually an adult GP. Most of the world is moving towards specialistion in IM so you'd realistically be looking at doing 6 years in the US anyway.

There's something a little off about your stats. Most specialists in Oz with private work make $500k. Even more if you're an interventionalist (Cardio or Gastro) how are you getting 250k for a specialist? That's what a salaried GP makes - what would be the incentive to be a specialist if you can make the same as a salaried GP?

Finally in terms of resident salaries the current rate fluctuates widely - using todays currency rate doesn't make much sense as in July the AUD was almost 1:1 with the USD. Also 40K in the US might go further then 40K in Oz, but it in no way is equivalent to the lifestyle of 70K in Oz. I'd argue with 70k in Oz you'd have a much better lifestyle then with 40K in the US. Though this depends on a lot of factors like where in Oz or the US you live.

As for the hours you quoted above, I think a lot of under reporting of true work hours goes on in US hopsitals. All the people I've talked to were quoting working hours of at least 80, with most working upto 100 hours a week. Even with the new laws this hasn't changed much.

Granted your residency will be shorter in some cases (1 year in pathology, about the same in Surgery, 1 year in FM/GP, 2 years in Psych, about the same in Radiology) etc. however you will have to work a lot harder during your residency, and there is no doubt that will come at the cost of family/lifestyle. Whichever path you choose I suppose you will have to decide what's more important to you. Even 4 years of that sort of life can take it's toll.

Edit - double post - ignore the above.

 

[redshifteffect]

75k is after taxes by the way. At least that's the case in Tasmania.

 

[jaketheory]

Internal medicine - 4 years in Oz from what I've seen if you just want to do purely General Medicine (at least that's what I've heard)
Its 6 years if you want to do a specialisation in anything (say Cardio) or 7 if you want dual fellowship (General medicine + Fellowship)

as i said it is 6 years even for general medicine. see: http://www.racp.edu.au/amtrain/spec/s_gm1.htm

If you do purely general medicine in the US, then yes that's true it's 3 years, but that makes you virtually an adult GP. Most of the world is moving towards specialistion in IM so you'd realistically be looking at doing 6 years in the US anyway.

not really. while internist can be primary care physicians many choose to be hospitalists and work on an inpatient basis only in general medicine wards. thats essentially all of what the medics in the show Scrubs are doing. most attendings in IM have only done a 3 year residency. attending positions at more prestigous institutions require some form of fellowship. I spoke with an attending at Brigham & Womens in Boston (a highly ranked teaching hospital of Harvard) and he explained this to me and noted that he simply got an MPH after finishing IM residency and this qualified him as an attending. Smaller or less prestigous hospitals will hire attendings straight out of residency.

general medicine is not much different in Aus. FRACP requires 6 years but for gen med, only 1 year of advanced training specifically in gen med is required (one year more of training specific to the specialty than in the US). your qualification is still gen med, whether it is FRACP or diplomate of the ABIM. granted, certain Aus states now have very few gen medicine wards. From my knowledge only 1 hospital in NSW has a gen med ward.

There's something a little off about your stats. Most specialists in Oz with private work make $500k. Even more if you're an interventionalist (Cardio or Gastro) how are you getting 250k for a specialist? That's what a salaried GP makes - what would be the incentive to be a specialist if you can make the same as a salaried GP?

the site i got the info listed 210-440k for consultants. i expect general internists would be on the lower side. why would some one do that? because they want to be a physician rather than a GP. not everything is about money; there is obviously career satisfaction factors.

Finally in terms of resident salaries the current rate fluctuates widely - using todays currency rate doesn't make much sense as in July the AUD was almost 1:1 with the USD. Also 40K in the US might go further then 40K in Oz, but it in no way is equivalent to the lifestyle of 70K in Oz. I'd argue with 70k in Oz you'd have a much better lifestyle then with 40K in the US. Though this depends on a lot of factors like where in Oz or the US you live.

historically, the exchange rate has not varied nearly as widely as it has over the last year or 2. yes, it recently was near 1:1, but this defintely does not represent the norm over the last 10 or more years. it has hovered fairly consistently closer to 70 US cents. you can download historical daily exchange rates here: http://www.oanda.com/convert/fxhistory.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

while it seems there are a lot of comments on here about aus residents (postgrad med trainees, not RMO's) making considerably more than their US counterparts, I'd like to say i don't think this is necessarily true. various websites estimate interns grossing 75k after salary packaging (obviously it could be more or less depending on the hospital and hours), 90-100k for RMO's, and 100-130k for registrars.

US interns are generally getting 45k or more and can expect to make over 50k by PGY-4. At 1AUD = 0.63USD (as of today), 45k USD for an intern = 71.5k AUD. Depending on what specialty you are going into, US residency can be much shorter than training in Aus and upon finishing postgrad med education you can make considerably more in the US than in Aus. thus, in the short term you might make out a little better in Aus, but a few years later the US doc will have out earned the Aus counterpart.

another thing many point out is lifestyle. granted residency life may be more stressful state side, it is often shorter.

i'm not trying to argue nor be pro-US residency. I've just been researching options and thought others would be interested in facts. i'm planning to go to Aus as a local with PR because it seems pretty stupid for me to go to school in the US and pay two to three times as much just for a medical degree. i've always wanted to return to Aus anyway.

I think i'm most interested in general internal medicine. obviously it is way too early to be sure. In aus, that requires internship plus 6 years RACP training. In the US, its 3 years of residency. The website for the IM program at a hospital where i grew up states graduating residents can work at that hospital making 180k/year working only 25 weeks/year with no on-call hours. the average intern hours is reported as 60/week for that same hospital in FREIDA (not too much more than an Aus intern). so thats looking at a total of 675-955k AUD over 7 years training in Aus which is 473-669k USD at 1AUD = 0.7AUD, or 774k USD after 7 years training and working in the US with the last 3.5 years working only 25 weeks/year (and calculated with no income for the half year between med school and starting residency). thus i think this example alone illustrates that both the money and lifestyle (hours, etc) can be better in the US.

After that 7 years, the aus trained doc will be a consultant and their income is likely to be similar (and not more) to that i mentioned for the US hospital, 180k USD = 250k AUD, so the US trained doc clearly comes out on top.

I never heard of an IM making 180k a year for working half the year. Most reliable IM income estimates state a range of $150k to $180k a year for American Internists. The US Dollar and Aussie fluctuate a lot, a few months ago, if you used exchange rates to compare incomes, Australians came out
on top. I really doubt the current US dollar rally will last, although I hope it does since I am borrowing in US dollars to pay for my education. Usually the Aussie has hovered around .75 US cents.

 

[redshifteffect]

as i said it is 6 years even for general medicine. see: http://www.racp.edu.au/amtrain/spec/s_gm1.htm



not really. while internist can be primary care physicians many choose to be hospitalists and work on an inpatient basis only in general medicine wards. thats essentially all of what the medics in the show Scrubs are doing. most attendings in IM have only done a 3 year residency. attending positions at more prestigous institutions require some form of fellowship. I spoke with an attending at Brigham & Womens in Boston (a highly ranked teaching hospital of Harvard) and he explained this to me and noted that he simply got an MPH after finishing IM residency and this qualified him as an attending. Smaller or less prestigous hospitals will hire attendings straight out of residency.

general medicine is not much different in Aus. FRACP requires 6 years but for gen med, only 1 year of advanced training specifically in gen med is required (one year more of training specific to the specialty than in the US). your qualification is still gen med, whether it is FRACP or diplomate of the ABIM. granted, certain Aus states now have very few gen medicine wards. From my knowledge only 1 hospital in NSW has a gen med ward.



the site i got the info listed 210-440k for consultants. i expect general internists would be on the lower side. why would some one do that? because they want to be a physician rather than a GP. not everything is about money; there is obviously career satisfaction factors.



historically, the exchange rate has not varied nearly as widely as it has over the last year or 2. yes, it recently was near 1:1, but this defintely does not represent the norm over the last 10 or more years. it has hovered fairly consistently closer to 70 US cents. you can download historical daily exchange rates here: http://www.oanda.com/convert/fxhistory.

- A staff specialist General Medical Consultant with zero private work would be making 350K not including any of the perks (car, housing etc). With private work they would easily make 500k. That's real world salaries. I haven't met one making less, yet, but they might exist.

- Exchange rate - there's been a huge consumption of commodities by China and India and when the economy picks up again I'm sure that the Aussie dollar will pick up again. It's likely to stabilise a bit higher then it has been historically. However as I said above, that's pretty much irrelevant. 40K US doesn't buy you the same lifestyle as 70K AUD in the respective countries, regardless of exchange rate.

- When I say primary care physicans, I mean that you don't see many specialties. Have you actually worked in General Medicine? You basically see a revolving door of pneumonia, cellulitis, gout etc. To me that's essentially being an adult GP.

 

[jaketheory]

I never heard of an IM making 180k a year for working half the year. Most reliable IM income estimates state a range of $150k to $180k a year for American Internists.

neither had i. thats why i posted. don't believe me?

"Hospital medicine is a popular career choice for our residents. Becoming a hospitalist is an easy transition from residency training. Greenville Hospital System hospitalists work 25 weeks per year, with an annual starting salary of $180,000 (as of 2008) with a productivity incentive. This career choice has the added incentive of set work hours, no office overhead expense, and no call. GHS hospitalists also have the opportunity to join our faculty and teach residents if they so desire." from http://www.ghs.org/content.aspx?id=85922.

this is a satellite hospital of the university of south carolina. 1/4 of the the medical class spends all of 3rd and 4th year there.

 

[jaketheory]

I never heard of an IM making 180k a year for working half the year. Most reliable IM income estimates state a range of $150k to $180k a year for American Internists.

"Hospital medicine is a popular career choice for our residents. Becoming a hospitalist is an easy transition from residency training. Greenville Hospital System hospitalists work 25 weeks per year, with an annual starting salary of $180,000 (as of 2008) with a productivity incentive. This career choice has the added incentive of set work hours, no office overhead expense, and no call. GHS hospitalists also have the opportunity to join our faculty and teach residents if they so desire."
from http://www.ghs.org/content.aspx?id=85922.

This is a satellite teaching hospital of the uni of s. carolina. It has full university teaching hospital status; 1/4 of the medical class spends all of 3rd and 4th year there.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Well they must be an exception to the rule, most IM Hospitalists at big name university hospitals usually make much less. For example at Cornell in NYC, Internists start at 115k a year. I know at U of Washington its also low. There is a doctor I know at Hopkins who told me 150k a year was the norm for their internists. They must be paying more to get doctors.

 

[copacetic]

Well they must be an exception to the rule, most IM Hospitalists at big name university hospitals usually make much less. For example at Cornell in NYC, Internists start at 115k a year. I know at U of Washington its also low. There is a doctor I know at Hopkins who told me 150k a year was the norm for their internists. They must be paying more to get doctors.

this is a general rule that applies to big name hospitals and centres in general. the more well known the school/program and the better the reputation, the lower the salary (across all areas of medicine and specialties). this si because there are more people who are willing to work there so they can afford to pay you less. plus they have some notion that the prestige of working at a big name place ought to compensate for paying you less.

 

[jaketheory]

this is a general rule that applies to big name hospitals and centres in general. the more well known the school/program and the better the reputation, the lower the salary (across all areas of medicine and specialties). this si because there are more people who are willing to work there so they can afford to pay you less. plus they have some notion that the prestige of working at a big name place ought to compensate for paying you less.

i work at harvard. one thing i know is that i cannot eat prestige. nor will it grant me a sweet vacation on a tropical island.

 

[redshifteffect]

Re: Salaries

Almost missed it because I was too busy yesterday. Jake you are comparing salaries of US residents with Australian RMOs/Interns.

Don't forget the salaries of REGISTRARS is much higher then that of Australian residents/interns.

A typical Medical registrar should be making at least 150k, while surgical registrars make 200k +

You also can factor in all the opportunities available to Australian trainees that aren't available to US trainees (locum private hospital work, surgical assistants etc.) because hours of work in Australia are less.

You are making an apples to oranges comparison, since Australian residents and American residents are not the same thing. As an American resident, you have several magnitudes more responsibility then you would as an Australian one. American residents however are equivalent to Australian registrars.

For example as a Pathology registrar my base salary is about double that of what an equivalent American registrar would make (I've been comparing salaries) I have zero on calls (Path regs in America still have oncalls, though they can take it from home) and I have the opportunity to locum, or take RMO weekend shifts/evening shifts if I want to supplement my income.

Since there is no equivalent to the intern/rmo in the American system you can't really compare their wages with that of American registrars.

 

[jaketheory]

Re: Salaries

Almost missed it because I was too busy yesterday. Jake you are comparing salaries of US residents with Australian RMOs/Interns.

actually i was not. i was comparing US residents to their Australian counterparts which include interns, RMO's, and registrars and my calculations included that. admittedly i ignored the RMO in my example calculation since you can go directly into physician training from internship.

the numbers i found were 75k w/overtime and packaging for interns, 90-100k for RMO's, 100-130k for registrars, and 215-440k (or somehting like that) for consultants. i do not deny this info MAY have been a little dated.

You are making an apples to oranges comparison, since Australian residents and American residents are not the same thing. As an American resident, you have several magnitudes more responsibility then you would as an Australian one. American residents however are equivalent to Australian registrars.

i am aware if this, thus i did take it into consideration.

Since there is no equivalent to the intern/rmo in the American system you can't really compare their wages with that of American registrars.

as noted i was adding up what an aussie would make over 7 years: income as an intern and registrar and compared that to what an american would make in the same time period: income as a resident and practicing doc.

i'm not trying to get into a heated debate here but suggest each to thoroughly look into it themsleves. i think there are perspective biases and i don't claim my own perspective is free of them. i will be doing as much research on the matter as i can so i can make a well informed decision. of course, it is in the distant future for me, so i've got plenty of time to figure out what is most important to me.

 

[redshifteffect]

I'd definitely think your information is dated, and is only as accurate as google.

The figures I quote are from real people, with real pay cheques.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

i work at harvard. one thing i know is that i cannot eat prestige. nor will it grant me a sweet vacation on a tropical island.

Lol. That is why I decided to enroll in the Dental course instead. From what I know only 2 new Dental schools have opened up recently, but overall the number of Dentists are not going to increase to an appreciable degree any time soon, I doubt Dental graduates will double by 2012. There was even a spirited discussion on Paging Dr, which is a forum for Australian medical students about Doctor incomes vs. Dentist incomes, almost all of the people on that board, who happen to be Australian, said Dentists win out in the pay department. There is a lot of concern among many medical students regarding their future careers in light of the drastically increased student numbers. Locum positions in Australia right now are ultra lucrative but could dry up in a few years when the new graduates start entering the health care system. A lot of people think the seller's market might become more patient driven in the coming years.

I was looking at the Queensland Health pay chart, it says total compensation for registrars was topping out at 120k a year including superannuation.

Last time I checked, "prestige" does not pay rent, put food on my family's table, pay for a ski trip to the Swiss alps, etc.

 

[jaketheory]

I'd definitely think your information is dated, and is only as accurate as google.

The figures I quote are from real people, with real pay cheques.

i'm not quick to agree. according to AMSA's 2008 intern and residents guide, NSW interns get $49.9k plus overtime and penalties and residents (RMO's) get $58.5k, while the source i used for the numbers above listed an intern getting 60k plus overtime and penalties and RMO's getting 65-80k. Thus my source overestimated the base salary for NSW interns and residents by 11% to 37%. In stark contrast, you claim my source is grossly underestimating figures. I'm not saying my numbers are necessarily right, I just don't think yours are either just because you think they are. Anecdotal evidence is no substitute for real data. I know this person and that person that make x amount does not prove anything. I admit some hospitals will pay more than others, that some people will work more hours than others, and that the overestimations cited above are not necessarily also true for registrars or consultants.

 

[redshifteffect]

Actually the problem with the sources that you are using is that they are outdated. I just took a look at the Intern and Residents guide and it's underestimated my base salary by about 10k.

Most (medical) salaries in Australia are indexed to inflation, and are increased at the end of the financial year, which occurs in June, so the base salary I started off with in January has already been increased. Various hospitals have different contracts, and some increase salaries at a rate greater then inflation, which can sometimes mean a 6-8k (on top of the inflationary increase) jump in the middle of the year. Also the Intern and Resident guide is an estimate to the salaries, not the actual salary - since the only one who knows what an intern/rmo/registrars salary is, is the medical staffing unit and the doctor who receives the money.

You are also not taking into account the potential for a higher income, which exists all over the Australian system currently. Even doing an extra weekend shift (say Saturday, more on Sunday) can increase your income by 1k+ just for that week. Although Johnny is right, these lucrative opportunities may dry up in a few years.

The figures I quoted while anecdotal have been verified by me actually being shown pay stubs. It's also not just from one state, but from a variety. So while you may be a google king, I'd still trust my real world figures over yours.

There is also no reliable way to really estimate what your actual salary will be before hand, since as I've mentioned before the base salary is meaningless. Most of your income is from overtime and penalties. Unless you know how much rostered overtime you are to expect, plus which part of the overtime will be during which hours you can not really estimate how much you will be making, since even a few hours at triple time could increase your annual salary by 10-15k over the course of a year.

As for anecdotal evidence, you can't have it both ways. You anecdotally quoted the salary for an Internist at a single US hospital and then implied (though I admit you didn't state) that this is what many US internists make though a google search would prove otherwise.

Something you can't know by reading about it on the internet, is that the amount of work you do for your salaries in both countries is markedly different. I'll stick by my figure of 500k for a consultant specialist, what you can't know however (because you have never stepped foot in an Australian hospital) is that they do much less for that money then their US counterparts. If you compare a general medical consultant in Australia they simply attend ward rounds (at their leisure, sometimes even after the junior staff have already done theirs) and the rest of the day they are contactable by phone. They occasionally do evenings, and weekends when their team is on call, but even then it's only via phone - their registrars do the rest. Compare that to what American consultants have told me - in the US you are expected to have a much more hands on approach; and therefore actually earn your income. A lot of General medical consultants essentially double dip, by attending ward rounds in the morning, as well as their private clinics (after ward rounds) during the day, essentially making two salaries.

I had no clue what I would be making until I actually made it, that's why I'm saying I trust my real world figures. I find it hilarious that a non-medical student half way around the world is trying to estimate what I should be making, while I'm actually willing to share what interns on average ARE making. lol.

 

[Pollux]

I've gotta say, thank you both for this discussion, redshifteffect and jaketheory. It has been very enlightening for those of us who haven't looked into this sort of stuff.

Before reading this thread, I thought that the remuneration package table posted on Queensland Health website would be the correct source. I just checked again, and indeed it's outdated by more than a year now. (Last updated in Sep 2007)

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Being able to stay for internationals probably will not be a guarantee in the near future but right now anyone who wants to do so can stay in Oz. I would still say Australia is one of the better places to go overseas for medical education, better than anything in Europe, where they basically ask you to go home as soon as you are done with your studies, at least staying is a possibility in Australia but not a guarantee. I still believe any North Americans who aim to work in NA should look at DO schools if they did not make it into Allopathic programs in the US and Canada, believe me, it will make your life a lot easier, I always notice that there are few students who get homesick when they come here, I am not one of them, but you should realize the immense distance between Australia and North America will make it expensive to go home frequently. Its a very good idea to visit the country and actually get a feel of the place before making the plunge. The differences between DOs and MDs these days is almost nil in North America and that is why I feel its a much better alternative to foreign medical schools for North Americans, especially considering the fact that many NA students in Oz already have very good GPAs and MCATs.

 

[copacetic]

i second that.

 

[jaketheory]

As for anecdotal evidence, you can't have it both ways. You anecdotally quoted the salary for an Internist at a single US hospital and then implied (though I admit you didn't state) that this is what many US internists make though a google search would prove otherwise.

not true. i consider it common knowledge that interns make around 45k in the US. thats fairly consistent. you can google as many hospitals as you want and find it doesnt stray much from that figure.

 

[jaketheory]

. . . what you can't know however (because you have never stepped foot in an Australian hospital)

excuse me but now it seems though you are trying to attack me. i have lived in australia and "have stepped foot in an Australian hospital". i've visited the ED of the RAH twice as a patient and and even stayed in the coronary care unit of the Ashford private hospital in Adelaide 3 nights; had an angiogram there. I've also visited Flinders medical centre and St. Vincents, Sydney. And I had more than one GP while I was in Aus. you don't know me.

i'm not attacking anyone, i'm just trying to uncover different perspectives. i don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

By going to a non US medical school you will place yourself at a sizable disadvantage in the residency match. US educated MDs and DOs have had few problems securing residencies. The moment you leave North America you will place yourself at a competitive disadvantage for residency training. If you want to work in the US, apply to American schools.

 

[redshifteffect]

Jake,

That wasn't an attack - just saying that you couldn't know that since you haven't worked in an Australian hospital. What you see on the surface doesn't necessarily mean you know what is going on behind the scenes.

 

[jaketheory]

Jake,

That wasn't an attack - just saying that you couldn't know that since you haven't worked in an Australian hospital. What you see on the surface doesn't necessarily mean you know what is going on behind the scenes.

redshift,
i agree. but i find it hard to believe that all the data on the net is completely unreliable. i mean they do mine it from somewhere. i think i can do plenty of research on US salaries to be confident. why cant i do the same for aus? anyway, i get your point. i'll likely be in Sydney within 2 years or less regardless of if i get my visa in time to apply this upcoming year. maybe we can argue it out over a beer and you can school me on the way things really are. i think i've had my say so ill hush up now.

 

[redshifteffect]

The main problem with Australian salaries is that it isn't just a basic salary, if that was the case then yes I could see compiling data and working out some figures.

However, even when I started working, I honestly had no idea what my pay cheque would look like until I actually received it. That's why I'm posting inside information - to help people make decisions on real data, information that they otherwise would not have access too.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

There are plenty of US physicians who do very well but its not as easy as people think and doctors who are financially well off tend to be very creative in the States. A lot of primary care doctors often open up medical spas and wellness centers, which tends to border on quackery. This is rare in Australia where GPs completely focus on the practice of medicine and make their income from actual medical practice. For example in the States, I heard of DOs who abandoned traditional medical practice to open up OMM clinics in wealthy suburbs of major cities because they earned more money doing this than actually practicing medicine. Compare this with an Australian GP who undergoes continuing education to do additional procedural work that can increase their incomes.
I worked for a decade in the US and observing the Australian system of doing things, people in Oz get a lot more balance between work and life, way more. In fact its not uncommon for medical students after finishing their intern year here to take a year off and travel the world, in fact its very common. That is completely unheard of in the US. Vacation time is far more generous, people here get at least 5 weeks off fully paid, and people in seniority even take longer holidays. Of course paid vacations are for people who work for someone else or are employed by a health service, clinic, etc. I know a doctor who talked a lot about he took his children around the world and got to spend time with them, most doctors in the States basically have to give up their own personal lives for their careers. Even then you wonder about the reward, people think that a chief of Neurosurgery at Hopkins or Yale would be a multimillionaire. A Hopkins neurosurgeon shed light on that myth, he admitted he earned a fairly modest salary for someone with nearly a decade of university education. I know quite a few people from the US who are here who would vouch for me on this issue. I knew on American girl who was set on going back to the US when I met here in the first year and now she is set on staying.

 

[Nawledge728]

As others have stated, you seem to on top of your game with regard to international applicants to Australian medical schools. I am from the United States and considering, strongly, applying to UNSW for the MBBS degree. Currently, I've completed two years of my American Bachelor degree. From what I understand, I am well qualified to attend UNSW as a medical student. However, it almost seems too good to be true as everything I've been reading and hearing is positive and very friendly to a student in my position.

What are your thoughts on an American attending medical school in Australia in hopes of becoming a pediatric surgeon back in the U.S.?

Thanks,

Nawledge728

 

[jaketheory]

As others have stated, you seem to on top of your game with regard to international applicants to Australian medical schools. I am from the United States and considering, strongly, applying to UNSW for the MBBS degree. Currently, I've completed two years of my American Bachelor degree. From what I understand, I am well qualified to attend UNSW as a medical student. However, it almost seems too good to be true as everything I've been reading and hearing is positive and very friendly to a student in my position.

What are your thoughts on an American attending medical school in Australia in hopes of becoming a pediatric surgeon back in the U.S.?

Thanks,

Nawledge728

if you are dead set on being a pediatric surgeon in the US, you be making a horrible mistake by going to Aus for med school. why are you even considering? you still have 2 years of undergrad to kick ass i applying to US med schools. and you know that UNSW is a 6 year medical degree, right? if you are competitive for a spot (its very competitive), than youd likely be competitive for a US med school when you finish undergrad provided you dont take a nose dive. if read thoroughly threw this forum you will see that aus med school is not the same as US med school. it will not train you practice in the US. anyone set on practicing in the US should exhaust all options of going to med school in the US: US MD, US DO, and offshore schools which allow you to complete all 2 years of clinical training in US hospitals.

pediatrics is a fairly competitive specialty. surgery is very competitive these days. pediatric surgery? you'd likely have to be one in a million to get that having trained outside the US. that or you become a fully qualified pediatric surgeon outside the US first (which will still be very hard) and the repeat all your training in the US. and why would you want to do that?

 

[Winged Scapula]

pediatrics is a fairly competitive specialty. surgery is very competitive these days. pediatric surgery? you'd likely have to be one in a million to get that having trained outside the US. that or you become a fully qualified pediatric surgeon outside the US first (which will still be very hard) and the repeat all your training in the US. and why would you want to do that?

Just to clarify:

pediatric surgery does not require training in pediatrics. Even if it did, pediatrics is one of the least competitive specialties in the US.

Pediatric surgery is a fellowship following general surgery residency and it is one of the most competitive surgery fellowships around. There are not very many positions so getting into a good general surgery residency is key. You would be unlikely to match into peds surgery from a community or no-name residency program.

As far as repeating all of your training if you trained as a pediatric surgeon in Oz, recently the American College of Surgeons has approved to accept 1-2 years of general surgery training abroad. However, the catch is that you have to be in a US general surgery program restarting as an intern, for your PD to apply for the dispensation. Thus, no guarantees and you most likely would have to repeat all of your training.

Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly with jaketheory. You should not go to Oz for medical school unless you absolutely cannot get into the US. Several years ago when I did, it was easier but in many ways I still feel it was a mistake to give up a US medical school education to train there. For someone who is interested in a very highly competitive specialty such as pediatric surgery, it would be a career death sentence. Only go abroad if you cannot get into a US school (and it sounds like you haven't even tried) and you are willing to accept a career in primary care, not a surgical specialty.

 

[jaketheory]

pediatric surgery does not require training in pediatrics.

i didnt mean to imply that it did. i only mentioned pediatrics and surgery because i didnt know anything specificly about pediatric surgery.

Even if it did, pediatrics is one of the least competitive specialties in the US.

recently a pediatric GI fellow began working on research in the lab in which i work (at Harvard; he's a fellow at Children's Hospital Boston), and from my discussions with him, pediatrics is not one of the least competitive specialties. I'm currently interested in IM (which i think with family medicine are the two least competitive), and he tells me pediatrics is significantly more competitive than IM simply because there are not near as many pediatric residencies as there are IM residencies.

even though IM is among the least competitive there are many very competitive IM programs. my impression is that most fellowships are fairly competitive and that one's competitiveness for fellowship training will be highly influenced by where they did residency. someone who completed residency at some hum drum community hospital will obviously not be as competitive for fellowship as someone that trained at the Brigham or MGH.

 

[shan564]

in IM (which i think with family medicine are the two least competitive), and he tells me pediatrics is significantly more competitive than IM simply because there are not near as many pediatric residencies as there are IM residencies.

There are also fewer applicants to pediatrics. Usually, people judge the "competitiveness" of a certain specialty by looking at the average USMLE scores for people who get in, not by the number of accepted/rejected applicants. A specialty is "competitive" if it rejects high-quality applicants, not if it just rejects a large number of applicants.

http://medliorate.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/residency-specialty-average-usmle-step-1-score/

That data comes from the official match statistics.

 

[jaketheory]

There are also fewer applicants to pediatrics. Usually, people judge the "competitiveness" of a certain specialty by looking at the average USMLE scores for people who get in, not by the number of accepted/rejected applicants. A specialty is "competitive" if it rejects high-quality applicants, not if it just rejects a large number of applicants.

http://medliorate.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/residency-specialty-average-usmle-step-1-score/

That data comes from the official match statistics.

ok. fine. but he explicitly told me pediatrics was more competitive than IM and he just finished peds a year ago and works in a childrens hospital. and the table you linked to lists essentially the same average scores for IM, anesthesiology, and gen surgery and i'm not going to believe that anesthes and gen surgery are not harder to to get into than IM.

by the way, bought a one-way ticket to Sydney for $680 (from Charlotte, NC). will be arriving in Sydney Oct 3rd. i have 5 weeks to sell/give away virtually all my things. it will be an adventure!

 

[SFs Own Tone]

ok. fine. but he explicitly told me pediatrics was more competitive than IM and he just finished peds a year ago and works in a childrens hospital. and the table you linked to lists essentially the same average scores for IM, anesthesiology, and gen surgery and i'm not going to believe that anesthes and gen surgery are not harder to to get into than IM.

by the way, bought a one-way ticket to Sydney for $680 (from Charlotte, NC). will be arriving in Sydney Oct 3rd. i have 5 weeks to sell/give away virtually all my things. it will be an adventure!

Congrats JakeTheory! Are you preparing to start in Jan 2010? USyd or UNSW?

 

[jaketheory]

Congrats JakeTheory! Are you preparing to start in Jan 2010? USyd or UNSW?

nope. didnt take the Gamsat this year cuz i was pretty sure i wouldnt get my PR visa in time to apply this year. Oops! hoping to to apply for 2011 entry. not considering UNSW since it is 6 years. i've been told i could get some advanced standing but those with prior uni studies must also submit high school records, which are weighted 50%R) and mine was just average which isnt competitive.

probably choosing between USyd, UWA, and Monash Gippsland. will depend on my gammy and how long it takes me to find a job after i land in Oct.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

nope. didnt take the Gamsat this year cuz i was pretty sure i wouldnt get my PR visa in time to apply this year. Oops! hoping to to apply for 2011 entry. not considering UNSW since it is 6 years. i've been told i could get some advanced standing but those with prior uni studies must also submit high school records, which are weighted 50%R) and mine was just average which isnt competitive.

probably choosing between USyd, UWA, and Monash Gippsland. will depend on my gammy and how long it takes me to find a job after i land in Oct.

Why didn't you take the MCAT? and get your PR while in school?

 

[jaketheory]

Why didn't you take the MCAT? and get your PR while in school?

i think the sooner you get PR the better. i applied for my PR visa back in Sept but the whole process started in May 2008 when i submitted my degree for assessment, a requirement for state sponsorship. application for state sponsorship followed in July.

i suppose i could have taken the MCAT and applied for PR later, but there would have been no guarantee i'd get PR. in fact, as i my only route was through state sponsorship, i feel it would have been very unlikely to gain sponsorship for one occupation while concurrently pursuing training for a different occupation. the assumption for sponsorship is that you will work in your sponsored occupation in that state. that i would have been studying medicine could be easily discovered as i'd be on a student visa. even if i did get sponsorship, the actual granting of visa is done by the minister of immigration, who would probably recognize the basis for my current visa (student) does not support the purpose of the state sponsored PR visa program.

had i taken the mcat and applied as an international while my PR visa application was still awaiting approval, gotten accepted to med school, and then had my PR visa granted, my international spot would have then been voided. it is possible to be given a full fee domestic place but it is not guaranteed. being transfered to a commonwealth supported place is much more questionable.

my route was to seek PR first and i think i'd do it again that way given the chance. not only will i get a commonwealth supported place (assuming i get in), i will be eligible for austudy and rental assistance starting my 2nd year in school (assuming i commence in 2011; if i commence in 2012 i; get them from year 1) and by year 4 i'll should be eligible for HECS-HELP and the 20% HECS discount (or by year 3 if i commence in 2012). all this adds up to a huge monetary savings.

besides, this way i get to really settle in Aus before jumping into school! how exciting?!

 

[SFs Own Tone]

You certainly had a lot of reasons for your chosen plan. I would be extremely excited as well to be heading out to a great city in a foreign country. You'll also be getting there as the weather warms up! Two summers for you. And if i recall correctly, Sydney summers should be pleasantly mild.

 

[Meddie83]

I think you're mistaken. Sydney summers are anything but mild. The humidity could kill!! There are worse places than Sydney, but prepared for heat!

 

[shan564]

Yeah, Sydney is mild for most of the year, but the midst of the summer is pretty hot. Still, most of the summer isn't any worse than Missouri, where I'm from.