Okay..
I think I've more or less responded in the
other thread, which ended up being a general discussion on offshore schools.
Also, try to avoid posting the same thing twice in this forum - but good call on making a new one, rather than derailing someone else's. I noticed this same one in another Australia med thread in here.
I do not particularly care about returning to Canada for residency. If I get a residency in Canada, great, if not then I will go to wherever I get one. I am currently at around a 3.6 GPA (my university has a 9.0 point scale, so conversions are confusing and since I did them myself they might be way off)
that's great.
always be flexible and have an open mind.
By the way, Singapore is just about always hiring native English speakers with Australian degrees. If you don't mind going there. As discussed in the other thread, it's a bit up in the air with regards to staying in Australia after grad.
Conclusion in the other thread - the US has more medical schools than Canada and Australia combined. For general surgery specifically - it's a faster and 'relatively' easier track for you as a North American to look to the US for med school in order to match in surgery, if you must leave Canada.
See how you do on the MCAT. then do the
LizzyM calculator (as in enter the stats you've just posted) and see what schools come out of that list generator. Or list your stats in the
What are my chances forum (which is used to see what your chances are at American schools). Apply for MD and DO. I'm going to stop here about American schools, as this is out of scope in this particular forum and merits a new thread in other parts to SDN.
One thing however, I just thought of.
you're a Canadian. Meaning, if you've lived your entire life in Canada, you only know the Canadian healthcare system, which is a public, universal healthcare system. What you're used to, may not be the same in the US. Make sure you shadow some American doctors or surgeons as a premed to find out if the American system is for you. It's a requisite anyway to most if not all American medical schools.
There were certainly some Canadians who graduated from Australian schools who chose to apply to the American match instead. Many were successful. on the other hand, some did not apply to the US at all and stuck to going back to Canada or they stayed in Australia - at least in the past. The Australian system is predominantly also public (free access to all) with a smaller private sector (a minority of residents are allowed to do part of their training in this area).
I was wondering what the situation is like for Canadian students who go to study in Australia. Can they get residencies in semi-competitive/competitive specialties (ie gen surg)? Is it possible to get residency at all without being an Australian citizen?
It's ever changing. the entire situation in Australia.
It's gone from a doctor's shortage in the 90s & early 2000s, to oversupply of both med students and junior doctors (and some subspecialties - like Icu or nephrology etc). However, there is still a chronic shortage of rural family doctors.
Nothing's static in Australia, it's dynamic. Policies within schools change, as do state policies, hospitals and federal government ones (health, immigration etc). Many things have changed in my 4 years here, and they're still changing.
If you want to be a rural family doctor - then you can reasonably expect to stay in Australia after grad. At this stage. which is a beautiful in it's own right.
For grads trying to match in competitive specialties in North America, you're never going to be viewed or treated the same as AMGs or CMGs with an off-shore degree. Doesn't really matter where you go. Yes, degrees from other Western countries are looked upon better, but the stigma is still there, also the programs won't know you as well as their homegrown & trained.
One thing that will limit you at most Australian schools is that you must undertake the majority of your 3rd and 4th year rotations in Australia with their affiliated hospitals. Versus the Carribean - you can undertake all your rotations in Canada/the US. You will still have to work harder than the average AMG/CMG to match in a competitive specialty. Similar to what was told to you in the Carib thread -
Also, the Caribbean is not a place where you would want to "screw up" so take that as fair warning.
you could apply this to any offshore school with regards to matching in North America. The one exception may be UQ Ochsner, but you have to be American to participate in that.
Previously, any international student who graduated from an Australian school (no matter the background) could compete for a competitive specialty in Australia like general surgery on equal footing with domestic Australian graduates, should you have a strong application.
However, specifically for any surgical field, it has always been a requirement that only Australian permanent residents or citizens can apply. Until recently, the Australian work VISA for most Australian grads had a PR pathway (allowing grads to apply after a year of residency/internship). It will still be the case I believe, up until March 2018. Never know for sure though, that said. (just repeating myself to other observers to this thread by the way).
Currently, unless something changes further (which could happen), that old VISA is now gone and has been replaced with new ones that have no PR pathway. Meaning, you would have to leave Australia after 2-5 years. roughly. which in Australia, is not sufficient to be fully qualified in surgery. As stated in the other thread.
As Pitman's pointed out in other threads, there is a rural pathway VISA that still has a PR track. But you unfortunately will need tertiary metro hospitals (that actually has the capacity for subspecialties) at least some of the time to get into surgery.
Surgical training - you have to wrap your head around this - is structured differently in Australia. There some variation from state to state. Generally speaking however, it takes 3-4 years (or more) to get formally accepted into a "surgical residency" or waht they call registrar training (roughly equivalent to say a senior surgical resident). this allows you to become a fully qualified surgeon. in the years leading up to it, you can work as a junior surgical resident (or house officer as they call it here). And they expect this. In that time they also expect you to accumulate research (while as a med student and working resident) and pass a surgical anatomy exam. that's my very rough explanation of this. Overall, surgical training is up to 8-10 years easily, before you can call yourself a fully qualified surgeon. Give or take a couple of fellowships towards the end.
This also roughly explains it too.
I've linked to you before in the other thread -
the shopping list or "points" you have to accumulate before you can even go to apply to the Royal college of surgeons in Australia. One surgeon I rotated with as a student, told me it took him 5 years after graduating to accumulate enough points on his CV just to apply.
It's very challenging to get into a surgical program in Australia to say the least. I've heard it described as a "war of attrition". In some sense, it's a test of your dedication to a field before they will take you in, at least in this country. Many will switch and focus on easier specialties before getting to the application process.
that said, when you work as a house officer on a surgical service (and you have some freedom to pick your rotations depending on which hospital you work in) you are going to receive some surgical training, mentoring and guidance. Your primary job is managing the wards, but you do get operating time, clinics and time in ED to do admissions (obviously there may be some variation depending on the hospital).
From the sound of things in the other thread however, it sounds like you've decided on the US MD/DO path anyway. So I wont go further on what's involved for surgical training in Australia.
TL;DR - as concluded in the other thread regarding offshore schools, fastest/relatively easiest track to general surgery as a Canadian (if you cannot get into a Canadian school) is probably the US with it's MD and DO options.
