skeptical about aussie med schools

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Funnily enough of the 5 or 6 Canadians that graduated around the same time as me, I think 4 of them were determined to return.

Not one of them has. Getting a match in Canada/US is very difficult now, and the extra hassle for Canadians (J1 Visa or H1B) makes it a lot more unattractive. When coupled with some of the hospitals that actually sponsor H1Bs (inner cities or extremely rural hospitals) plus the pay and working conditions a lot decided to stick it out in Oz.
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Not all international students are interested in staying but many do stay for at least an internship year. The Australian government would have to radically expand hospital staff and even have to build new hospitals to accommodate all the new graduates, that would be impossible to accomplish in four years when all the new graduates will be finishing. The big issue is that the number of local graduates is also going to increase by a large number, and even locals are worried that they might not have a job or a path to becoming a GP or Specialist, so that would mean internationals would be placed on the sacrificial alter and asked to go home or get kicked out.

Doctors get more "respect" and honor but when you start understanding the mentality of Aussies, this means nothing. Cash rules in Australia just like America, its just as consumerist if not more than America or any Western country. Just look at any major Australian city, in many ways its does not look too different from what you have in the US, they have expansive suburbs, shopping malls, highways, etc. pretty much a consumer oriented economy.
 
Actually they don't need to build any new hospitals, they only need to expand into the private hospitals. Currently in Hobart there are 8 private hospitals for 1 major public hospital.

There are a lot of hospitals out there that new graduates could rotate through.
 
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I think the internationals won't be in as bad a situation as many make it out to be. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic :rolleyes: Yes there will be some obstacles but I'm really thinking I may still be able to get an intern spot somewhere.
 
You can always increase your chances by doing rotations at hospitals as a medical student and getting to know the people responsible for intern recruitment.

Remember marks have nothing to do with getting a job. It's all CV and references + if they know you that helps out a lot.
 
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You are being overly optimistic, the Australian universities are doubling the student seats in medical schools, by 2012 they will have 3000 fresh graduates. That is huge, even the US is not increasing seats by that much. I doubt private hospitals will take on the duty of graduate medical education. Public hospitals have long been the primary source of GME in Australia.
I think there will be good chances of staying even in 2012 onward, but it won't be as easy as it is now. In 2004, they started opening the doors, people graduating this year and next year are not going to have problems but starting in 2012, it could become an issue. Students who want to stay will need to find a way to get PR to get an internship, and a Medical degree does not give you the necessary points. The GP I talked to came as an international student when immigration to Australia was impossible for someone who is not British, he did it by marrying an Australian but this is not realistic for a lot of people.

I personally am just going to play it safe, I cannot afford a $300,000 gamble. And there is a real dearth of Dental services in Australia, I heard nearly 10 percent of the population is unable to see one and its not because they are avoiding Dentists.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
You are being overly optimistic, the Australian universities are doubling the student seats in medical schools, by 2012 they will have 3000 fresh graduates. That is huge, even the US is not increasing seats by that much. I doubt private hospitals will take on the duty of graduate medical education. Public hospitals have long been the primary source of GME in Australia.
I think there will be good chances of staying even in 2012 onward, but it won't be as easy as it is now. In 2004, they started opening the doors, people graduating this year and next year are not going to have problems but starting in 2012, it could become an issue. Students who want to stay will need to find a way to get PR to get an internship, and a Medical degree does not give you the necessary points. The GP I talked to came as an international student when immigration to Australia was impossible for someone who is not British, he did it by marrying an Australian but this is not realistic for a lot of people.

I personally am just going to play it safe, I cannot afford a $300,000 gamble. And there is a real dearth of Dental services in Australia, I heard nearly 10 percent of the population is unable to see one and its not because they are avoiding Dentists.
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I agree that the situation wont' be as good as it was for people graduating within the last few years. However some hospitals are already providing rotations in private hospitals. Pathology for instance has created registrar positions in private hospitals, though admittedly this is aimed mainly at senior registrars so that they can get their "money's worth".

Some hospitals already have community based internship rotations such as at GP practices, or the private rooms of specialists. From the AMA meetings that I've attended, they are definitely plans to place interns/residents in private hospitals. There really is no other choice, they must get them into these places to meet the coming demand.

The main issues faced in private hospitals at the moment is the lack of supervision, which they will be dealing with by getting more specialists based in the private hospitals. For the private hospitals the situation is financially advantageous because they can run their EDs and wards with fairly cheap interns/residents vs. very expensive locums.
 
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That's exactly why I feel good about my decision to do Dentistry, you get a lot more autonomy than Medicine, get to build a lucrative business, I do not have to be at the mercy of Queensland or NSW or any other health service for my career since they determine the number of internship and residency spots.
While GPs can make as much as 500k a year, I really doubt GPs in the Sydney area earn that kind of coin, I heard urban GP incomes are lower. There are Sydney Dentists who earn seven figure salaries in the Eastern and Northern Suburbs.
 
http://pagingdr.proboards61.com/index.cgi?board=pg&action=display&thread=914&page=1
This is a link to a conversation among UQ local medical students regarding the medical student tsunami. From what I gathered, for the next couple of years, for local students with PR, they will be guaranteed an internship but for internationals it will not be guaranteed nor have they ever guaranteed this.
One interesting note than in QLD, out of State Australian citizens take precedent over international students. I was able to get a position in NSW because they still have a surplus there. Some people are painting a gloom and doom scenario for international medical students and the more optimistic ones say its still possible to stay but will get more difficult.

I have commented on the fact that students in other health fields who are internationals will experience fewer barriers and resistance to working in Australia after graduation. Nurses, Physiotherapists, and Dentists have no issues with staying in Australia for employment since, they are considered qualified upon successful completion of studies.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
That's exactly why I feel good about my decision to do Dentistry, you get a lot more autonomy than Medicine, get to build a lucrative business, I do not have to be at the mercy of Queensland or NSW or any other health service for my career since they determine the number of internship and residency spots.
While GPs can make as much as 500k a year, I really doubt GPs in the Sydney area earn that kind of coin, I heard urban GP incomes are lower. There are Sydney Dentists who earn seven figure salaries in the Eastern and Northern Suburbs.
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That might be true, but based on the independent research I did the starting salaries of dentists on average is still lower then that of GPs.
 
Well I am planning to get an MBBS and BDent degree. Starting salaries for Dentists fresh out of school maybe a bit lower than GPs out of residency but they are still very good. Specialist Dentists are also extremely well compensated, especially Orthodontists and Maxillofacial surgeons.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
Well I am planning to get an MBBS and BDent degree. Starting salaries for Dentists fresh out of school maybe a bit lower than GPs out of residency but they are still very good. Specialist Dentists are also extremely well compensated, especially Orthodontists and Maxillofacial surgeons.
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Australian&NZ Maxillofacial surgery training is (at min) 9-years post dentistry (...and that is if you get through each year successfully and get straight into it after dental school for example through the Syd combined MBBS/BDent pathway). Otherwise it will (most likely) take 10-11 years post dentistry to finish. (It is well known to be the longest training program in all of healthcare).

Orthodontic training is 3-years long... (however, most programs require 2 years of working experience prior to admission).

:thumbup:
 
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Orthodontists must be loaded. My orthodontist here in Canada has a very large and sweet looking practice, a couple of luxury cars, and a Harley that he sometimes comes into work with. I know he studied dentistry in the US and his tuition was ~65K per year. He has only been practicing as an orthodontist for 2 years and he sure seems like he's confident in his money making ability!
 
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redshifteffect said:
Funnily enough of the 5 or 6 Canadians that graduated around the same time as me, I think 4 of them were determined to return.

Not one of them has. Getting a match in Canada/US is very difficult now, and the extra hassle for Canadians (J1 Visa or H1B) makes it a lot more unattractive. When coupled with some of the hospitals that actually sponsor H1Bs (inner cities or extremely rural hospitals) plus the pay and working conditions a lot decided to stick it out in Oz.
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That's another problem those of us from North America who cannot get an internship will have to try to match in the US through ERAS or in Canada through Carms. The latter is nearly impossible for IMGs, the former is getting very difficult too.
 
Yeah I completely agree with you.

There's a Canadian guy I know who is graduating now who completely abused the Australian system. He got a PR so payed local fees, worked full time in his career, while attending medical school, so made a profit off medical school. Then he did an elective in Ontario where all the Canadian students told him he'd have no problem getting back to Ontario to work in their Emergency "room".

I think he actually believed that this was going to happen. When he found out that to be competitive in Ontario he needed the EE and QE1 as well as the fact that the match rate in Emergency was so low for IMGs, and that he'd still have a rural return of service on his head, I think reality finally hit him. Until that moment in time he would go around telling everyone how he would proudly fly back at graduation.

He ended up buying a house in Australia, has relocated his family here and is doing internship next year.
 
Going to a medical school as a Canadian who wishes to work in Canada is an extremely high risk proposition. I don't have the exact figures but the match rate for Canadian IMGs is tiny, even the 50 percent rate for US IMGs is actually good but even that means half of the US students who obtained medical education outside North America will never practice medicine.
 
I have to interject here just to point out that in fact the match rate for Canadian IMGs that had just passed the Canadian exams and are considered first year graduates was 54% last year - i.e. 46 matched out of 85. That is still a little low, but not impossible and certainly not an extreme risk. And to add another correction from what I see of the CARM's statistics there were only 16 new US graduates which applied for residency and of those 11 matched - i.e. 67% matched. These are pretty good numbers...

So I ask; Why scared and worried? Just do it!
 
Redlan said:
I have to interject here just to point out that in fact the match rate for Canadian IMGs that had just passed the Canadian exams and are considered first year graduates was 54% last year - i.e. 46 matched out of 85. That is still a little low, but not impossible and certainly not an extreme risk. And to add another correction from what I see of the CARM's statistics there were only 16 new US graduates which applied for residency and of those 11 matched - i.e. 67% matched. These are pretty good numbers...

So I ask; Why scared and worried? Just do it!
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I'd be interested in seeing a link for those stats if you have have one.

As for the numbers you quoted keep in mind you have to actually have been given an interview to be part of the match. So only 85 "Canadian" IMGs were given interviews?

We all know anecdotally that there are 100s of Canadians just in the caribbean, and 100s more in Europe and Australia...so the true match rate is a lot lower then 54%. What we don't know is how many applied, but weren't even given interviews.

What we can say with certainty is that of the amount that applied, only 85 were given interviews, and of those 46 matched.

Addit:
Although one thing I'd have to agree with Johnny about is that even if the match rates were 50% (which I doubt they are) that's still a pretty big gamble on a 300k loan. If you don't get a match in Canada you don't even have the back up option of being an RMO. Interest on that kind of money also starts to add up pretty quickly, and the new rules for matching say you can't be out of school or medical work for more then 3 years before you can no longer apply for a match in Canada. That means you realisticially have only two chances at a match if you leave Australia before it's over (since we graduate in Nov, it's very difficult to get a match in the year after you graduate).

Addit 2:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2008R1_Mat...l Graduates Match Results 1995-20082nd_en.pdf

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2008R1_Mat... Graduates Match Results by Discipline_en.pdf

This is the best I could do, as there is no where on the site that actually broke down results by "Canadian" IMGs vs. Non-Canadian IMGs. Keep in mind that to apply to CaRMs you have to be a citizen or PR of Canada. Thus I highly doubt that they could break it down any further.

You'll note that the match rate is actually decreasing, as the number of applicants is increasing. I have a feeling that the number of applicants is only going to get a lot higher as they've now opened up more MCCEE testing centres around the world.

Some of the IMG candidates that I've seen matching into the programs in Canada have literally done at least a year of observerships, while others have obtained their LMCC. That's a lot of time and effort, and not to mention loss of income just to get a potential GP match.
 
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Here is the link:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2008R1_MatchResults/35Summary of Match Results 2008_en.pdf

What this page shows is an important nuance - namely, the difference in the chances of getting into a Canadian residency if you are either a current graduate or a previous year graduate. The bulk, if not all of, the current graduates are Canadians finishing their degree abroad and coming back. I would agree that this does not reflect the total number of applicants... this would be an interesting statistic to come across and if anyone has any information on this please do let us know. Personally I want to do an internship in Australia once I get the medical degree done. I am also open to staying there for a residency and then either return to Canada to work or stay there - depending on where my life is at that point. From what I know now, though this is mostly hearsay, I believe that it is much easier to get back to Canada as a fully trained physician than to get back into a residency here. There has also been talk of a more clear reciprocity of medical degrees and training between Canada, Australia, and Ireland. There are many avenues here and I do not see the future for Canadian IMGs as bleak as it has been told here. A UQ representative I heard talk pointed out the obvious fact that physicians trained from superior medical schools such as those in Ireland and Australia quite simply all have work. Studying at either of these places will not get you unemployed! If you have an open mind about where you might live for a few years then the profession is yours... Moreover, these schools, and the fact of being an international medical student, can actually be of great benefit if you are interested in an international dimension to your work.
 
A 50 percent match rate is nothing to be confident about, it means half of the people who applied will be able to access postgraduate training and practice medicine in Canada while the other half will not. Regardless of how superior Aussie or Irish doctors are the issue is that there are bureaucratic hurdles to jump through. I still would say US medical school graduates would not have much trouble getting a license to practice in Canada, there are many US trained physicians working in Canada. In North America, most people know Oxford and Cambridge as excellent universities outside of North America, many people would not know much about Australia. So simply having an Aussie or Irish MBBS won't give you any more prestige in the eyes of PDs than other IMGs.

People who are graduating from medicine this year and in 2009 who are internationals will not have problems staying because for their years there will be more internship jobs than graduates but beginning in 2012, a whole bunch of new graduates will be getting their medical degrees, as many as 3000 people and there is a good chance that not everyone who wants to stay in 2012 and afterwards will be able to stay in Australia. I am feeling like the guy who told a bunch of first graders that Santa Claus does not exist but the truth is that things are going to get harder for internationals in medicine.
 
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Thanks for the Link Redlan,

Although it would appear that of the 85 that got interviews 46 matched, we still can't be certain of two things:

1. How many of these were actually "Canadian" IMGs who had done medschool overseas, there could still be a sizeable IMG population (of current graduates) applying for first round matches

2. How many applied but never even received an interview. We know that there are definitely more then 85 Canadians graduating from foreign schools every year, with just 100s in the Caribbean, and 100s more in Australia. That doesn't even include the Eastern European, European programs or Asian programs where there are probably 100s more. Unfortunately it will be very difficult to get a true statistic of what the match rate is like through CaRMs.

3. Finally the "ease" of returning to Canada as an Australian trained physician is no hearsay. Just visit the RCPSC yourself or look at the links provided in other threads.

Addit:
Some estimates put it at 1500:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/176/8/1069

So theoretically if only 50% of these people applied for a first round match through CaRMs then:
That would be approximately a 6% match rate. These are just rough figures though, since we'll never know the real numbers.
 
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I have heard of this bottleneck effect occuring in Australia for internship spots and agree that it is a concern. However, I've seen some estimates and it looks as though there are about 100 spots fewer (projected) than there will be graduating students in 2012 - this is in Queensland alone. I would assume that of these 100 'extras' many will be on a return of service agreement with their government of want to get back to Canada or the US. So there might not in fact be any bottleneck effect even within Queensland when all things are considered. I agree it is a worry now, but I would also think that there is a good chance all these things will get worked out. And then you can always go to another state in a possible worst case scenario...
Redshift - I couldn't find any info on the ease or difficulty Australian trained Canadians have had at getting back to Canada - if you have that info I would also like to check it out (I checked out one old article but have found nothing new or clear).
 
What I did was two fold:

1. Contant recruitment agencies they can give you uptodate info on licensing.

2. Contact the RCPSC - they list all Australian speciality programs as recognised.

http://rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/img_page2_e.php

Essentially the process works as such:
1. You apply to the RCPSC either just before obtaining fellowships in one of the above Colleges, or just after.

2. They go through an evaluation process that is lengthy - but this is unimportant as you should be employed as a consultant at that time. They evaluate your specific training to that of an equivalent Canadian graduate. That is where American programs run into difficulty, as they are usually shorter then the Canadian equivalent.

3. Once you are accepted, you are allowed to sit the Fellowship exams within 3 years. At this stage even the toughest province, Ontairo will grant you a restricted license until you pass your fellowship exam.

4. You will still be required to become an LMCC (so pass EE, QE1, QE2) to get a full unrestriced license, but that can be done as you are completing your fellowship in Australia.
 
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RedShift - Thanks for that link and your explanation of this process to come back to Canada fully trained. It is an interesting path... if the seduction of living in Australia isn't total.
 
Redlan said:
I have heard of this bottleneck effect occuring in Australia for internship spots and agree that it is a concern. However, I've seen some estimates and it looks as though there are about 100 spots fewer (projected) than there will be graduating students in 2012 - this is in Queensland alone. I would assume that of these 100 'extras' many will be on a return of service agreement with their government of want to get back to Canada or the US. So there might not in fact be any bottleneck effect even within Queensland when all things are considered. I agree it is a worry now, but I would also think that there is a good chance all these things will get worked out. And then you can always go to another state in a possible worst case scenario...
Redshift - I couldn't find any info on the ease or difficulty Australian trained Canadians have had at getting back to Canada - if you have that info I would also like to check it out (I checked out one old article but have found nothing new or clear).
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I would not count on all international students in Queensland or whatever other State to leave the country after graduation. Right now there is a surplus of internships meaning that any international who wants to stay in Australia can do so, this will not be the case for some people starting in 2012. The US has no Return of Service requirement at all, maybe in Canada, but many internationals right now decide to at least finish an intern year so they can get Australian registration. I would not bank on all internationals wanting to go home once school is completed. If this was not a serious issue the student associations at USyd and Melbourne would not be making such a big issue about it, the fact is that they are making a a major issue over the shortage of internship spots. Going to other states for internships?? Forget it. WA is now becoming competitive and so is Tasmania, that only leaves South Australia, and I doubt they will have enough spots to cover the massive numbers of internationals that UQ is admitting.

Probably the only way to hook an anchor into Australia is by marrying a local, an option I cannot do since I am already married, and realistically you should not even bank on the idea, although it happens. Probably doing electives at a tiny not so well known hospital can help out a lot.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
I would not count on all international students in Queensland or whatever other State to leave the country after graduation. Right now there is a surplus of internships meaning that any international who wants to stay in Australia can do so, this will not be the case for some people starting in 2012. The US has no Return of Service requirement at all, maybe in Canada, but many internationals right now decide to at least finish an intern year so they can get Australian registration. I would not bank on all internationals wanting to go home once school is completed. If this was not a serious issue the student associations at USyd and Melbourne would not be making such a big issue about it, the fact is that they are making a a major issue over the shortage of internship spots. Going to other states for internships?? Forget it. WA is now becoming competitive and so is Tasmania, that only leaves South Australia, and I doubt they will have enough spots to cover the massive numbers of internationals that UQ is admitting.

Probably the only way to hook an anchor into Australia is by marrying a local, an option I cannot do since I am already married, and realistically you should not even bank on the idea, although it happens. Probably doing electives at a tiny not so well known hospital can help out a lot.
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Actually Johnny the US does in fact "effectively" have a ROS.

For those people that are not US citizens the J1 Visa is the way to go, since more institutions sponsor it and you don't have a cap on the number of J1s (which you do for the H1b).

J1s require you to return to your home country for two years. In the case of Canadians, they can't simply return to Canada and start working (which is why there's a lot of IMGs that are US trained working in Oz at the moment). So they must then get a J1 Waiver. Having seen some of the locations that are J1 waiver eligible, I'd personally rather work in a rural part of Australia then those places.

So while technically not a RoS contract, it effectively amounts to one.

Finally you're missing the obvious. Your wife could do training in Australia (like a Tafe course) which would only take two years, get her PR and sponsor you. It'd be a close call but still possible.
 
I will repeat what I said above - and please correct me if I'm wrong but I must say I've looked into this a great deal:

Queensland has put in place a plan to increase internship and residency spots for the next few years in order to compensate for the increase in medical students who are mostly internationals. However, for Queensland it appears that there will in fact be a lack of internship spots - this is a fact as things are planned now. The discrepancy, if I remember correctly, is about 100 spots - i.e. 100 fewer internship spots than graduating students. This is for all of Queensland. Furthermore, there are a certain number of international medical students who must return to their home country as they are in a sort of contract - perhaps we can estimate 30-60 of these students. In addition to this there are 20 spots reserved at UQ for the students basically returning to New Orleans. I figure this amounts to about 70 students who are not vying for internship spots. So we are now left with about 30-40 students in excess of internship spots - you can count on at least that many getting back to Canada, the US, or the UK. Even as it stands now, I cannot see how there is much of a problem.
 
Well 30 to 40 spots short means that some people might not get an internship, you also have to remember that out of state Australians get preference over in state internationals. Also other states will also have a shortage of intern positions. NSW and Victoria are even in worse shape, the only way you have leverage on the Australian government is if you are a citizen or PR, otherwise they will put a boot on your rear end, and believe me they have no qualms about doing this and have stiffed international students in the past.
You are obviously very naive to believe a foreign government will act in your best welfare, reality check, they will not, they will act in their own best interests. Even on my interview they told us not to bank on practicing medicine in Australia because there is no guarantee that they will have enough training positions. The Dental faculty has a different situation since Dental students do no require any internship and postgraduate training is optional.
 
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I am afraid you are mistaken johnny, I never said that we will be taken care of by the Australian government once graduated from a medical school in their country. As a matter of fact, from what I have heard a number of Canadian medical students trained in Australia have begun internships and residencies only to leave them as they secured residencies back in Canada - basically they screwed the Australian system by withdrawing from residency programs that could not be filled once they left - in my mind this warrants the type of system that has been set up now, where it is harder to get an internship - the Australian system will no longer get screwed like they have been in the past. There is simply more competition to stay in Australia now so those who are really serious about it will probably get the spots whereas those hedging their bets will have a dark reality to face. On this subject I called medical workforce in Queensland yesterday and spoke to someone who offered only a loose idea of what 2012 will have to offer international medical students graduating from Australian schools; he said that for internationals there will be about a 50% chance of securing an internship spot in 2012. On top of this there are other states that will have more spots available if you don't make it in Queensland - these are still his words not mine. These are the odds and reality of things in one experts estimation - and I take him seriously. Four years is a long time away - much can change. As it stands I've beaten this subject enough to know that it is worth it to go, work hard, and make something of it all - and most importantly to be and remain optimistic....
 
If someone got an Australian residency, why would they want to jump ship and go back to Canada? I can understand family ties but not much else. Australia has a better way of life than what is found in North America. Doctors are paid better wages in Australia versus Canada, you have an overall balance between work and life. I might understand if a student matches into a very prestigious program at some Ivy League school in the US(which is near impossible for an IMG) I agree that not everyone is going to be stiffed but don't count on staying on after graduation. Who knows maybe some people might meet their partner in Oz, it won't be me since I am already married.
So you basically have to do some extra electives in rural hospitals and impress a lot of people and maybe they might pull strings for you. And in the worst case scenario you have to make sure you do real well on the USMLE and other exams to better your chances of getting a North American residency.
I think the DO route might actually be better than the IMG route for North Americans who want to work in the US or Canada afterwards. Canada used to be a closed door to DOs but now DOs with US residency training in Allopathic fields are able to work in most Canadian provinces.
If you're goal is to live and settle in Australia, you have to realize that you will be at the mercy of the Australian government, because they determine the number of training positions.
 
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To interject with a real world experience.

A UQ grad this year resigned for personal reasons from internship. Unfortunately (as predicted) they could not fill the spot this late in the year, and it basically left the rest of us screwed as we had to do this person's job as well as our own.

Anyone who signs a contract knowing full well that they will leave if they get another offer somewhere else is definitely not practising professionally. It's this kind of attitude that is making it harder for North Americans to get jobs in Australia - because it's their colleagues and the hospital that has to suffer in the end.

I was speaking to the medical recruitment staff at Flinders, and they said that whenever they hired a cohort of North Americans, inevitably 1-2 would do something dodgy like this, and they've made it an informal policy now not to recruit these people unless there is absolutely no one else to fill the jobs.
 
Yes redshift, that is precisely what I said above and what I can hear and understand from where I am right now (Canada). Nice to hear it confirmed again from you. These stories are unfortunate from afar as I know it is already hurting internationals chances of getting an internship in the future.
I have a question for you on this note - would you think that in 2012 the non-bottlenecked states will have enough spots left over for internationals if they can't get into their preferred states?
 
I think that most of the medical schools have been asked to increase their enrolements in the last couple of years to help with the doctor shortage. As a result there will be a pressure on all the states for intern spots.

From the AMA meetings I've been attending though new spots are being created and there are creative solutions being looked at. A few places (the NT for example) do not discriminate based on residency status, because to them there's no point in hiring a local if they plan on running away during the year.

Having previous experience in that state (via electives and/or employment) and showing a genuine interest in working there usually goes a long way. Keep in mind recruitment staff (including the physicans) have two major responsibilities:

1. Hire medically competent staff - factors that influence this decision is really how other clinicians have felt about previous graduates from your school. Not much you can do about this.

2. Ensure that people who work in the hospital actually continue to do so for the entire year. Relying on international students/overseas doctors is not a healthy situation for any country as they may have very little vested interest in staying in the long term. So in the future you will have to convince them that you are not going to run when you get the chance, especially during internship, which will cause difficulties for your colleages and the hospital.
 
So basically Canadian students are torpedoing the reputation of North Americans in Australia? Why is everyone in such a rush to go back to the Great White North? Poutine is that good??
 
Keep in mind all the information I've gotten is annecdotal - mainly derived from the admissions staff when I was applying for various jobs over the last few years.

That being said I'm sure if you're a good candidate and have shown a real interest in Oz (like what a concept - Oz electives!) you will be ok.
 
Well its obvious for anyone graduating now that if they want to stay in Australia and access post graduate training its pretty much a guarantee but in 2012 it will be a gamble, a 50 percent chance of staying means a 50 percent chance that you will be sacked with debt and going back home is getting difficult for North Americans, it used to be very doable for US student but all the messages I got from US PDs in Residency programs is that you will need to be exceptional to get a post grad training spot in the US in a few years.
 
Exceptional? I doubt that. I'm sure that some program directors have said that...but that's probably only for the competitive specialties. If someone wants to do FM, Psych, Peds, I don't think it'll be that bad. I've talked to several American physicians that have told me this.
 
Part of the trouble is also your visa status.

It is definitely more difficult if you do not have a greencard/Citizenship to get a residency then if you are a US citizen/PR.
 
Right not its not too bad but there are plans to build new American Allopathic and Osteopathic medical schools as well as cut some residencies. The program directors I spoke to said it could become difficult for IMGs to get residencies in the future, right now its not that bad but you have to take into account the extra medical school graduates that will be getting their MD and DOs in a few years time and the fact that residency spots will remain stagnant, something will give.
 
Ya, there are the visa issues for non-Americans. If I go to the US for residency, I'm simply hoping for a J1 visa. I've heard that as long as I'm not too picky with the particular residency, I'll be able to match (FM, psych, etc.). Also, I have to pass the USMLE's and have some USCE ;)
 
You should take a look at the places that sponsor for J1s, they are not exactly desirable, usually inner city or rural hospitals. Those places should still be a realistic option for people returning to the US after graduating from Oz.
 
J1 is definitely the way to go because of the number of residencies that sponsor them.

My only advice would be to get your general registration in Australia first though, because then you could always do your two years out of the US in Australia (provided you don't get/want a J1 waiver).

Also you will need to write the MCCEE to get the J1 if you're from Canada - which you can only write in your final year of medical school. So it's going to be pretty tight completing step 2 + MCCEE in your final year.
 
That's a good point RSE. I've heard that some Canadians have had trouble getting the J1 waiver. Some Canadians have had no issues with this though. Even if I got the J1 waiver, I've heard that the conditions working under such a waiver are tough! I'll probably just marry an American ;)

With regards to the MCCEE, I thought this was a relatively simple exam..? I hope it is!
 
Do you guys know anyone who has not chosen to take the J1 waiver and thus had to work at some low paying job in Canada for 2 years? I've never heard of this happening but you never know...?

Thing is, after finishing the residency on a J1, one should be able to come to Canada to work since a lot (not all) of these residencies are similar to the Canadian ones. Not sure on this though...
 
Having had a look at it, it would appear deceptively simple. However it will still require a fair amount of studying since it is different from the USMLE, in style and focus.

Ironically a friend of mine who was aiming for a residency in the US ended up passing step 2 but failed the EE. I'm not sure how common this is.
 
Actually its easier to work in some provinces then others. Ontario is very difficult for a lot of US based residencies.

Really depends where you want to work. Also there is no guarantee you can work in Canada with a US residency.

I've actually met people who couldn't secure a J1 waiver and had to work low paid (non medical) jobs in Ontario until their 2 years was complete.

Financially this is suicide - as you don't get much in the US so your interest is accumulating the whole time, then with a minimum wage job you won't exactly be paying your loans/interest quickly.
 
Well I don't plan on going to medical school to work at McDonald's. I am going to enter a profession. Its obvious that the chances to become a registered Dentist in Australia is far better than that for Medicine as an international student.
 
while it seems there are a lot of comments on here about aus residents (postgrad med trainees, not RMO's) making considerably more than their US counterparts, I'd like to say i don't think this is necessarily true. various websites estimate interns grossing 75k after salary packaging (obviously it could be more or less depending on the hospital and hours), 90-100k for RMO's, and 100-130k for registrars.

US interns are generally getting 45k or more and can expect to make over 50k by PGY-4. At 1AUD = 0.63USD (as of today), 45k USD for an intern = 71.5k AUD. Depending on what specialty you are going into, US residency can be much shorter than training in Aus and upon finishing postgrad med education you can make considerably more in the US than in Aus. thus, in the short term you might make out a little better in Aus, but a few years later the US doc will have out earned the Aus counterpart.

another thing many point out is lifestyle. granted residency life may be more stressful state side, it is often shorter.

i'm not trying to argue nor be pro-US residency. I've just been researching options and thought others would be interested in facts. i'm planning to go to Aus as a local with PR because it seems pretty stupid for me to go to school in the US and pay two to three times as much just for a medical degree. i've always wanted to return to Aus anyway.

I think i'm most interested in general internal medicine. obviously it is way too early to be sure. In aus, that requires internship plus 6 years RACP training. In the US, its 3 years of residency. The website for the IM program at a hospital where i grew up states graduating residents can work at that hospital making 180k/year working only 25 weeks/year with no on-call hours. the average intern hours is reported as 60/week for that same hospital in FREIDA (not too much more than an Aus intern). so thats looking at a total of 675-955k AUD over 7 years training in Aus which is 473-669k USD at 1AUD = 0.7AUD, or 774k USD after 7 years training and working in the US with the last 3.5 years working only 25 weeks/year (and calculated with no income for the half year between med school and starting residency). thus i think this example alone illustrates that both the money and lifestyle (hours, etc) can be better in the US.

After that 7 years, the aus trained doc will be a consultant and their income is likely to be similar (and not more) to that i mentioned for the US hospital, 180k USD = 250k AUD, so the US trained doc clearly comes out on top.
 
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