skeptical about aussie med schools

[lmore081]

Hey everyone,

I've been following this site pretty closely for the last couple of months and I'm having doubts concerning applying to schools in Australia.

1.There have been statements made about the difficulty of obtaining PR? Which I presume is necessary in order to obtain a residency spot?

2.I've also read that though the number of med schools has increased in the last seven years, the residency spots have not. Thus, international students get the short stick and are left without residency spots?

3.I've also read that everyone is required to do one year in a rural community, but that there is some hostility present in those communities toward minorities ( I am black)

4.I've read that Queensland, which is my first choice, has a become a lot like the Carribean schools, in essence selling a MD degree.

Any clarification would be appreciated?

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[redshifteffect]

Hey everyone,

I've been following this site pretty closely for the last couple of months and I'm having doubts concerning applying to schools in Australia.

1.There have been statements made about the difficulty of obtaining PR? Which I presume is necessary in order to obtain a residency spot?

2.I've also read that though the number of med schools has increased in the last seven years, the residency spots have not. Thus, international students get the short stick and are left without residency spots?

3.I've also read that everyone is required to do one year in a rural community, but that there is some hostility present in those communities toward minorities ( I am black)

4.I've read that Queensland, which is my first choice, has a become a lot like the Carribean schools, in essence selling a MD degree.

Any clarification would be appreciated?

I'm sorry but the questions you are asking have been clarified in great detail by myself and others. Doesn't really seem like you've been reading the site too closely.

Once again I'll summarise though and give you the benefit of the doubt.

1. Residency does not require you to have a PR. That is just so that you can get into some of the more competitive spots on equal footing with other Australian grads.

2. Residency positions HAVE been increased (and so have Internships and RMO positions), if you've seen the post I JUST posted about GPs in some cases by as many as 125 in the next two years for GPs, and anecdotally by a fair margin in other disciplines as well. The truth is that this is how the world is now. There is increased pressure around the world to increase the number of local graduates (this is true for the US/Canada/UK and Australia) and few places have bothered to increase the number of training programs. Australia is trying, but whether it will be enough remains to be seen. That is the reality of what life will be like when you graduate (world wide).

3. As for the rural requirement, that depends on your school. Most of the people on this forum that are from North America appear to be of some ethnic minority and don't seem to have any issues. If you are worried about a little discrimination though (and I'm not sure if you've faced any where you are from) that is probably the least of your worries. Though from my experience most Australians are quite tolerant. In general the large cities are quite cosmopolitan and much more diverse then some of the places in Canada that I've lived. Rural places like rural places anywhere in the world have a much greater proporition of the local people (in this case Caucasions), but presumably you'd know that.

4. Quite a bit of debate about this on the forums. You'll have to form your own opinion.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Hi, right now there are no problems with international students staying in Australia and I know students who have gotten into every type of residency program. Things might change in four years because the Australian government has been rapidly opening up a lot of schools over the past five years, in Queensland the number of medical graduates will double, a few years ago there was like 2 intern positions in QLD for each grad, now its like 1.5, but in 2012 it might be 100 short if they don't increase spaces.
As far as being black, no in most places it won't hurt you at all.

 

[shan564]

1. PR = Permanent Resident status. It's not hard to get if you want it; people just talk about how it's harder to get than is used to be.

2. The number of med schools hasn't really increased, but the number of students has. The number of residency spots hasn't increased yet because these students haven't graduated yet. Most states intend to increase the number of residency spots. Also, if you plan to stay in Oz, you can look into getting PR, which will mean that you won't get the "short end of the stick".

3. Almost nobody is required to do one year in a rural community. Queensland requires one rotation (a couple of months), but it's completely optional at other schools.

4. There's a lot of debate about Queensland. They're becoming more like Caribbean schools, but they're still a world-class university. I'd much rather go there than go to the Caribbean. That aside, you might want to consider other universities.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I actually completed some electives at Northwestern earlier this year and got positive reactions from the students and faculty there for the fact that I went to Australia. A student from a Caribbean or other for profit school would not get that privilege. Aussie schools are far better than those on the islands or the English language programs in Eastern Europe that are sold by people like Hope Medical etc.

 

[redshifteffect]

Actually Internship postions HAVE been increased. That's why a lot of people have had a very easy time getting matched the last couple of years, because positions have been increased and the graduates have not.

SA added 20-30 internship spots total this year over last year. I'm not sure about the numbers for WA, but in my year they increased their intern numbers in prep. for the Notre Dame grads. As for QLD although I don't know the total count I know just the Gold Coast increased their intern numbers by 30, in prep. for their Bond graduates. So yes the numbers are being increased.

Also, if you read the email I got they also just increased the residency spots for the GPs starting next year (therefore they increased the spots on the fly this year). So residency spots HAVE ALSO been increased.

 

[lmore081]

hey everyone,

thanks for the reply. I realize that most of these points have been clarified; however, I was confuse on some of the points.
Redshift, the amount of information you provide to this site is amazing. I going to guess your also an international student. Anyway, Im going to believe your information over those i've read on other sites.

thanks

 

[redshifteffect]

Thanks - glad to help.

I used to be an international student, but am working as a doctor in Oz now.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

There is no guarantee of an internship for international students, so basically you are taking a chance if you are planning to work down under. I am seriously looking at Dentistry as an alternative because I do not want to wind up on the short end of the stick which is likely to happen since so many medical schools are opening up in Australia.

 

[redshifteffect]

Unfortunately though with medicine there will never be any guarantees. Even if you want to return to the US, there is no "guarantee" that you will get a match.

However there is also the fact that getting into an internship in the next couple of years may be more difficult. It all depends on whether or not the number of spots that are being created will be enough.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Well I know for a fact that Dentists earn as much as medical specialists and more than double that of GPs, there are no barriers to working in specific areas. I already found out of several USyd internationals working in some nice locales in Eastern Sydney. Even if I got an internship, I have to deal with that 10 year rule, which would basically limit me to rural work if I became a GP. But even other fields have that annoying rule. I honestly do not see myself living outside of the Sydney metro, if I had to live in some podunk town the appeal of Australia would greatly diminish. Being an Asian Muslim, I also feel much better living in a big diverse city.

 

[redshifteffect]

Johnny,

I do understand you have your own agenda and goals, but please if you're going to post something at least post accurately. There's no point in posting half truths because then people don't have the facts to make a proper decision.

The 10 year moratorium does not mean working in a rural area. It just requires you to work in an area of need (of which there are plenty in all the capital cities) IF YOU WANT TO WORK PRIVATELY! There is a big difference between that and "having to work rurally"

Someone who wants to be a future health professional should at least have the courtesy to provide people with accurate information so that they can make informed decisions about their future.

As for Dentists making double that of GPs, are you talking salaried dentists or those that own their own practice?

There are plenty of Malay in all the capital cities. I've seen a fair number of them even in Adelaide.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I am talking about self employed Dentists vs. self employed GPs, there was an article link posted here a few months ago, the data they had said Dentists averaged 400k a year in private practice while GPs averaged 275k but there was some debate to whether 275k was accurate, another study says GP income was in the low 200 range. I actually know a real GP in Queensland who has a son who is a practicing Dentist, the son decided on Dentistry because he was a bit older when he started and did not want to go through t the burden of a long residency. This GP told me that even if you get into a training program there is no guarantee you will complete it, I heard many surgical registrars do not advance into advanced training the first time and wind up spending years as residents.
Even on my interview they said Australia has a doctor shortage, but why would they not aggressively ensure that all graduates can get access to postgraduate training?? USyd already allows students the options of getting both degrees. That is something I might consider and it basically avoids the traditional admissions process for the other program.

 

[redshifteffect]

I am talking about self employed Dentists vs. self employed GPs, there was an article link posted here a few months ago, the data they had said Dentists averaged 400k a year in private practice while GPs averaged 275k but there was some debate to whether 275k was accurate, another study says GP income was in the low 200 range. I actually know a real GP in Queensland who has a son who is a practicing Dentist, the son decided on Dentistry because he was a bit older when he started and did not want to go through t the burden of a long residency. This GP told me that even if you get into a training program there is no guarantee you will complete it, I heard many surgical registrars do not advance into advanced training the first time and wind up spending years as residents.
Even on my interview they said Australia has a doctor shortage, but why would they not aggressively ensure that all graduates can get access to postgraduate training?? USyd already allows students the options of getting both degrees. That is something I might consider and it basically avoids the traditional admissions process for the other program.

The problem with a survey that studys GP income is that the vast majority of GPs are not self-employed, in fact they work for others. Most new graduates do not want to deal with the hassles of running a private practice and are more then happy to simply work for others.

If you want to compare the incomes of GPs that own their own practices I think you'd find that the incomes are pretty comparable. My own personal experience shows that real world income is between 350k - 500k. There are a lot of ways that GPs can increase their income, that many do not know about primarily because they are not good at business. I think that with a well run practice a GP owner should not have trouble getting 500k a year, just bulk billing. There are many examples I know of personally that purely bulk bill and make that kind of money.

As for your information about training; sadly it's dated. Recently a new system for surgery was introduced whereby you apply directly into the surgical speciality of your choice after your RMO year (SET program). There is no longer a BST/AST program. The advantage of this is that if you can get in, you are trained directly into your surgical speciality. However sugical training in Oz is highly competitive (it's the most competitive speciality, other then perhaps dermatology) and so yes these spots are hard to get.

As for people spending many years as residents. There's a three fold reason for that.

1. In the US if you do not get a match, you have literally no food on your table, and the interest on your loans starts accumulating because you can not work. In Australia residents are paid generously and work fewer hours. They also have a lot less in student loans (HECS) to pay off. Therefore many do not rush to get into a training program because there is no incentive to, since they can work and make money without all the stress of being a registrar.

2. A lot of people have no clue what they want to do. Many students (though this is changing) were undergrad medical students, and thus have a few years to try their hands at things before they decide what they want to do. They dont' have that time pressure that the post-grad medical students have.

3. There is also a culture in Oz that having a broad range of experience as a junior doctor will make you a better Consultant. The advantage of this is that a lot of the Consultants I've worked with have a huge amount of knowledge even outside of their speciality fields, simply because they worked in those areas at one point in time. This not only makes you better at your own discipline, but safer as well. More knowledge/experience is never a bad thing to have; it may make the difference between getting sued, and not getting sued.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

USyd already allows students the options of getting both degrees. That is something I might consider and it basically avoids the traditional admissions process for the other program.

Sydney allows graduates from (Sydney's own med/dent only) to get advance standing into the other degree program with 1.5 years adv standing reducing the 2nd degree to only 2.5 years. You can go either way: Syd Med-> Syd Dent or Syd Dent -> Syd Med. However, you are not eligible for this program if you have had to remediate ANY exams/assessments in your 1st degree. (ie. You fail just 1 summative assessment and this is no longer an option for you). You can still get in to the 2nd degree afterwards... but you will have to apply like everyone else at that point. Hope that is clear.

 

[Theillestill]

Johnny,

As for Dentists making double that of GPs, are you talking salaried dentists or those that own their own practice?

I haven't heard of any dentists, salaried (which makes no where close to what private dentists) or private making double what GPs make.

However, $80-120k first year out of dental school ain't too shabby. My dad's works as an engineer on CANDU Reactors, and he makes only approx. $100k CAD after 20 years of work experience and two masters degrees in robotics.

 

[redshifteffect]

I think we can all agree that no matter which degree you graduate with you will do okay in Australia.

 

[Theillestill]

Except a Bachelor of Arts.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

A staffing firm who tallied data on self employed GP incomes came up with range of 250k to 275k a year. The same firm stated Dental incomes are an average of 400k a year for self employed Dentists. Unlike Medicine, most Aussie Dentists are privately employed. I actually have a family friend who is a GP and whose is a Dentist. Its a lot easier for Dentists to increase their incomes compared to GPs who solely depend on Medicare payments for their livelihood, and the ADC works hard to protect local dentists.

Incomes for junior Dentists are way higher than 80k a year, more like 150k to 200k a year. I even found a staffing firm that specializes in recruiting junior Dentists in Australia, these people earn a living recruiting Dentists so I think they have a lot of knowledge about incomes. I also saw another firm that recruits GPs.

As far as Dental salaries vs. GP salaries you must be referring to Canada Thestill. The system in Australia is very different. I know in Europe, the system is like this too. Dentists in Germany for example earn double what GPs earn, in that part of the world they are referred to as Dental Physicians.

I have also have went for a Dental cleaning while I studied at UNSW for year and paid about $140 for cleaning at an office in Western Sydney. If I am not mistaken a GP gets about $30 for a visit. And it took me a month to see that Dentist. Dentistry is also very much a 9 to 5 job, no nights, weekends, etc.

 

[redshifteffect]

Actually GPs do not solely rely on medicare (unless they choose to). That's where private insurance and charging the patient out of pocket come in. In Canada technically you must accept what the provincial government gives you as the total fee for the consult (at least in Ontario).

I think that a more fair comparison would be sole practicing GPs who do a large amount of procedural work (like removing lipomas/cysts/freezing skin lesions) vs. sole practicing dentists. Procedural work earns you about $150-$300 for a simple 15 minute procedure from Medicare, and you can charge extra from the patient. Since dental work is highly procedural that would probably account for the difference in income between a standard GP consult and a standard dental visit.

 

[Peter59]

Johnny,

I do understand you have your own agenda and goals, but please if you're going to post something at least post accurately. There's no point in posting half truths because then people don't have the facts to make a proper decision.

The 10 year moratorium does not mean working in a rural area. It just requires you to work in an area of need (of which there are plenty in all the capital cities) IF YOU WANT TO WORK PRIVATELY! There is a big difference between that and "having to work rurally"

Someone who wants to be a future health professional should at least have the courtesy to provide people with accurate information so that they can make informed decisions about their future.

As for Dentists making double that of GPs, are you talking salaried dentists or those that own their own practice?

There are plenty of Malay in all the capital cities. I've seen a fair number of them even in Adelaide.

You know what Redshift, Johnny wants to have the prestigious of doctors and make the money dentists make (which is not more but just easier to make), but he doesn't know he can't have both. So he is so pissed off and write on this forum to give s*** to doctors yet it doesn't heal his pain.

 

[Theillestill]

You know what Redshift, Johnny wants to have the prestigious of doctors and make the money dentists make (which is not more but just easier to make), but he doesn't know he can't have both. So he is so pissed off and write on this forum to give s*** to doctors yet it doesn't heal his pain.

Who wouldn't want both? I know I do.

 

[Meddie83]

Of course both are nice, but it's definitely not what motivates me!

 

[JohnnyRockets]

You know what Redshift, Johnny wants to have the prestigious of doctors and make the money dentists make (which is not more but just easier to make), but he doesn't know he can't have both. So he is so pissed off and write on this forum to give s*** to doctors yet it doesn't heal his pain.

Learn English, I guess you don't understand English very well. That explains the four on the VR of the MCAT that you got. "Prestigious of Doctors" What the hell are you talking about fool??? Hahahahah!!!

"Peter" LOL. What's your "real" name????

As far as "prestige", you obviously have never been to Australia. Like some redneck in a country town is going to give you any respect. As an international student you will most likely work in an area or hospital that Aussies did not want. I wasn't knocking down Medicine as a profession but saying that there are severe limitations for international students who want to stay in Australia after graduation. Its obvious you have zero knowledge of the system in Australia and have never even been there. I lived in Australia for a year and got a lot of knowledge about how the system works. They have doubled the number of students entering medical schools in the country and have not similarly increased internship spots. If you go on the Sydney U Medical Society website they are even having an emergency meeting regarding this issue, this means that even local students will have problems in the coming years, and if local students are going to have problems getting residencies, you can be sure international students will have the short end of the stick.

I even know a GP in Australia who has practiced there for over 40 years and he laughed at the idea of "prestige" in the profession of primary care medicine. He placed a sign outside of his office stating "No Drugs of Addiction are Located on These Premises" because drug addicts have been known to try to get medicine to abuse from GP Surgeries as well as Pharmacies. Even has a son who is a Dentist and another who is a Doctor, the Doctor is struggling to earn a living in residency training, while the Dentist is financially independent. Dentists also deal with a more upscale clientele. The Dentist son works in the North Shore of Sydney.

There is no real barrier for Dentists who were international students like there are for Doctors. They are also free to work anywhere they want, no 10 year exclusion nonsense.

There are some posters on this board speaking of the virtues of the Aussie system, I am just one to point out the stark realities for those of us who are not local students. Australia is a great place but for us foreigners we have a lot of hoops and hurdles to jump through.

I suggest you look up a post made earlier this year by an Australian doctor whose partner from New Zealand has left the medical profession because of the 10 year rule.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24316173-23289,00.html
Something to think about, there will be 3000 students total enrolled in each year at Australia's medical schools, double that from 1990. At the same time hospitals are ill equipped to handle these new doctors.

People are trying to use the US as a backup if they cannot get a residency in Oz or in Canada, but even the US is increasing medical school spaces and cutting residency programs. Its also not easy to match into a residency as an IMG in the US or in Canada. Canada is nearly impossible for that matter.

As far as "respect" is concerned the Australian media has been on a constant media blitz that has muddied the perception of overseas doctors and particularly doctors who are not of Anglo background. Read up on the case of Dr. Haneef and also of the Bundaberg surgeon.

Some more info that confirms the Australian health care system is far from ideal:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...st-report-finds/2007/05/22/1179601411002.html

A backlash has been occurring against Doctors of certain ethnic backgrounds since the Dr. Death Case:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1408475.htm

 

[redshifteffect]

Learn English, I guess you don't understand English very well. That explains the four on the VR of the MCAT that you got. "Prestigious of Doctors" What the hell are you talking about fool??? Hahahahah!!!

"Peter" LOL. What's your "real" name????

As far as "prestige", you obviously have never been to Australia. Like some redneck in a country town is going to give you any respect. As an international student you will most likely work in an area or hospital that Aussies did not want. I wasn't knocking down Medicine as a profession but saying that there are severe limitations for international students who want to stay in Australia after graduation. Its obvious you have zero knowledge of the system in Australia and have never even been there. I lived in Australia for a year and got a lot of knowledge about how the system works. They have doubled the number of students entering medical schools in the country and have not similarly increased internship spots. If you go on the Sydney U Medical Society website they are even having an emergency meeting regarding this issue, this means that even local students will have problems in the coming years, and if local students are going to have problems getting residencies, you can be sure international students will have the short end of the stick.

I even know a GP in Australia who has practiced there for over 40 years and he laughed at the idea of "prestige" in the profession of primary care medicine. He placed a sign outside of his office stating "No Drugs of Addiction are Located on These Premises" because drug addicts have been known to try to get medicine to abuse from GP Surgeries as well as Pharmacies. Even has a son who is a Dentist and another who is a Doctor, the Doctor is struggling to earn a living in residency training, while the Dentist is financially independent. Dentists also deal with a more upscale clientele. The Dentist son works in the North Shore of Sydney.

There is no real barrier for Dentists who were international students like there are for Doctors. They are also free to work anywhere they want, no 10 year exclusion nonsense.

There are some posters on this board speaking of the virtues of the Aussie system, I am just one to point out the stark realities for those of us who are not local students. Australia is a great place but for us foreigners we have a lot of hoops and hurdles to jump through.

I suggest you look up a post made earlier this year by an Australian doctor whose partner from New Zealand has left the medical profession because of the 10 year rule.

Johnny,

Once again you've packaged a half truth as a fact. The fact is Internship spots HAVE been increased, and will CONTINUE to be increased. Even in little old Tassie they are looking at placing interns in locations where they previously did not exist. This includes private practices and the private hospitals. Places like QLD, WA and SA drastically increased spots over the last couple of years. I am not sure if this will be enough for when you will graduate, but by saying that they haven't been increased, you are misleading people.

As for your comment about GP and Drug users... I can only laugh. I've spent a lot of time in GP practices around the world, and I think Australian GPs are treated the best. In the US you have poor people who have attempted to rob GPs for SAMPLE PACKETS! LOL and not for drugs either, we're talking about things as mundane as antihypertensives. These people were a lot poorer then the poor in the slums of Asia. Canada is no different, most of the GPs I've been too have signs on the wall saying violence will not be tolerated, or we have a zero tolerance policy. I commend you for trying to do research on your future options; too few people take it seriously, but talking to a single GP and making it seem like all GPs are in the same situation is not statistically sound. All of my opinions come after years of meticulous fact/data gathering. Not just something I saw "one time, at that guy's practice".

The facts you point out though are definitely true. Dentists have an easier time after graduation. That's a fact. No need to muddle the water with half-truth about doctors in Australia, when you can post about facts that actually exist!

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I actually got to shadow a real Australian GP in Queensland, and he actually had a sign posted in front of his office that there were no narcotics or drugs of addiction on the premises. I am sure this happens in the US and elsewhere too, I heard life for British GPs is plain harsh. I am not speaking any half truths, but the reality is that the Australian public and media has went into a frenzy after the Dr. Death scandal in Queensland. While they have increased internship spots over the past few years it has been slower than the rate of increased spots in medical schools, so it is indeed a reality that some of us who enter in medical school in 2009 and onward might not be able to realize our dream of working in Australia, and going back home will be much harder for those of us who don't get an Australian internship. US medical schools are aggressively increasing enrollment and American hospitals are cutting residency programs. New York for instance announced a massive reduction in funds for hospitals in hospitals in the state, that will definitely mean fewer residencies, a third of US residencies are based in New York.


I actually went to UNSW for year in 2007, and there was a lot of bad media towards Doctors from overseas, most of it placed squarely at doctors of non European origin, especially Indians and Asians. There are many incompetent white Australian doctors and dentists too, but the media and public are fairly quiet when they do a misdeed. There was only one article about a Sydney Dentist who killed his patient, while the scandals involving Indian doctors were repeatedly making news. I noticed much harsher language used against Indian doctors, terms like "terrorist" doctor or "rapist" doctor were used against a couple of Indian doctors. The Haneef case made worldwide news.
Here are a few articles I found:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...13-years-in-NSW/2007/01/25/1169594408296.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-107505968.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/14/1978526.htm

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/30/1185647827040.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-145549199.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/d...peal-against-rapist-ruling-20081031-5fkv.html

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,20185579-3102,00.html




I also got an opportunity to shadow a Dentist as well, Dentists are obviously much more business oriented, and I noticed a more plush office than the one of the GP I shadowed which was the same GP I mentioned who is a family friend. I was also privy to some interesting data which proves that self employed Dentists earn about as much as specialist doctors. The vast majority of Australian dentists work privately. There was someone who even posted an article a few months ago about it this issue.


You mentioned that successful self employed GPs net from 350 to 500k AUD a year, the GP I talked to who has four decades of experience gave me something on the lower end of the that range, still for a GP to earn that income he will have to see far more patients than a Dentist. A Dentist could see two people an hour and probably earn in that range, a GP would have to see at least several more people in an hour. That 10 year exclusion rule is something that really annoys me, it basically shuts you out from most major metro areas. Cities like Sydney and Melbourne have large ethnic populations that someone like myself could better service, but with that rule, I will have to work where the Australian government says I can work.

On this board a student who identified himself as an MBBS student at UWS talks about the medical student tsunami:

http://www.mymedicalcareer.com.au/community/2008/06/the-med-student-tsunami-and-an-invitation.php

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Johnny forget about what people like Peter say, you have to do what will be best for you. The medical profession is highly demanding, very stressful, and it takes years of training to become fully qualified, this will mean a lot of personal sacrifice on your part, you still make a good living. Dentistry is more of a 9 to 5 job, the pay is great, people do not have the kind of perception of Dentists that they have of doctors. The fact also remains that Australia is rapidly increasing student seats at medical schools faster than they are increasing internship and residency spots, so there is a chance that medicals students who want to stay might not be able to do so in a few years. Its basically your call.

Medicine is a profession which requires you to dedicate your life to it, a doctor told me you give your life to medicine not the other way around, if you are someone seeking a balance between work and leisure, you will be much happier in Dentistry.

 

[redshifteffect]

I actually got to shadow a real Australian GP in Queensland, and he actually had a sign posted in front of his office that there were no narcotics or drugs of addiction on the premises. I am sure this happens in the US and elsewhere too, I heard life for British GPs is plain harsh. I am not speaking any half truths, but the reality is that the Australian public and media has went into a frenzy after the Dr. Death scandal in Queensland. While they have increased internship spots over the past few years it has been slower than the rate of increased spots in medical schools, so it is indeed a reality that some of us who enter in medical school in 2009 and onward might not be able to realize our dream of working in Australia, and going back home will be much harder for those of us who don't get an Australian internship. US medical schools are aggressively increasing enrollment and American hospitals are cutting residency programs. New York for instance announced a massive reduction in funds for hospitals in hospitals in the state, that will definitely mean fewer residencies, a third of US residencies are based in New York.


I actually went to UNSW for year in 2007, and there was a lot of bad media towards Doctors from overseas, most of it placed squarely at doctors of non European origin, especially Indians and Asians. There are many incompetent white Australian doctors and dentists too, but the media and public are fairly quiet when they do a misdeed. There was only one article about a Sydney Dentist who killed his patient, while the scandals involving Indian doctors were repeatedly making news. I noticed much harsher language used against Indian doctors, terms like "terrorist" doctor or "rapist" doctor were used against a couple of Indian doctors. The Haneef case made worldwide news.
Here are a few articles I found:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...13-years-in-NSW/2007/01/25/1169594408296.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-107505968.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/14/1978526.htm

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/30/1185647827040.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-145549199.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/d...peal-against-rapist-ruling-20081031-5fkv.html

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,20185579-3102,00.html




I also got an opportunity to shadow a Dentist as well, Dentists are obviously much more business oriented, and I noticed a more plush office than the one of the GP I shadowed which was the same GP I mentioned who is a family friend. I was also privy to some interesting data which proves that self employed Dentists earn about as much as specialist doctors. The vast majority of Australian dentists work privately. There was someone who even posted an article a few months ago about it this issue.


You mentioned that successful self employed GPs net from 350 to 500k AUD a year, the GP I talked to who has four decades of experience gave me something on the lower end of the that range, still for a GP to earn that income he will have to see far more patients than a Dentist. A Dentist could see two people an hour and probably earn in that range, a GP would have to see at least several more people in an hour. That 10 year exclusion rule is something that really annoys me, it basically shuts you out from most major metro areas. Cities like Sydney and Melbourne have large ethnic populations that someone like myself could better service, but with that rule, I will have to work where the Australian government says I can work.

On this board a student who identified himself as an MBBS student at UWS talks about the medical student tsunami:

http://www.mymedicalcareer.com.au/community/2008/06/the-med-student-tsunami-and-an-invitation.php

Finally Johnny, you've posted something that is more accurate. The post you made above this one clearly said that internship spots are not increasing, when in fact (as you agree) they are. Whether it will be enough for the coming interns; that's a different case.

Part of what you've highlighted is clearly true. GPs for the most part are poor businesspeople, and good doctors. The two usually mean that you earn less then your potiential. If you run a practice well you should be able to clear 500k just bulk billing. There are definitely GP practices even here in Tassie that charge out of pocket $150 just for a 15 minute consult...simply because they can. Most would not do that because they actually feel for their patients. If you want to be a businessperson first, and doctor second you have no problem seeing 15-20 patients in a day and making $500k. If you bulk bill, I agree you will have to see more.

The question is, if a dentist who agruably does not deal with many possibly life threatening situations can charge $150 for a session, then why can't a GP who does have to differentiate between a lot of potentially life threatening situations not charge the same? People are willing to pay the dentist, so by logic they should be as willing to pay the GP.

There was the recent case in Melbourne of a Trauma Surgeon of European origin who was suspended because of being accused of performing dangerous surgeries without proper experience. So it's not purely a case of witch hunting Asian/Indian overseas doctors.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s2106802.htm

As for the media - they are sensationalists. Keep in mind that for every 1 Haneef, there are hundreds of overseas trained doctors working in all the public hospitals. Some of the smaller towns are basically run by overseas doctors. I'd say that this percentage is much larger then Canada or the parts of the US where I was. That does not mean that overseas doctors are treated poorly, in fact I'd say quite the opposite.

What other country allows you to work for 2 years before you sit a single exam? The US requires at least 2 steps (3 if you want an H1B) before you even set foot in a hospital, and Canada basically wants you to pass a minimum of 1 but in reality 2 exams and get your citizenship/PR before you can even apply for a match. Australia is fair in that sense to overseas doctors. They even recognise some overseas doctors qualifications, and dont' make them repeat their entire residencies as is the case with the US.

Finally the income I report for Self-employed GPs is 100% accurate. It's actual data I've been collecting from nearly every state and every GP practice I've worked in/rotated through/been involved with. That is literally 40-60 practices, and I continue to collect data as I get involved with more GPs. So your friend may have 40 years of experience in this field, but I've made it a mission to find out this information. I've also found all sorts of methods to increase average income by talking to every GP I've ever encountered, and my calculations (based on these encounters) do prove it's not hard to make that range being self employed. I worried more about these things in med school then passing exams (which weren't too difficult to pass in the end), which is why I know so much about it now.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

????

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Docs get heaps of respect down under:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/in-harms-way/2007/03/11/1173548022700.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...fear-for-safety/2007/04/27/1177459953480.html

Do Dentists get this, a visit to the Dentist in Oz usually costs someone $200 bucks or more, I doubt you get drunken welfare bludgging yobbos coming into Dental offices.

Peter you will get so much "prestigious" as a doctor in Australia. LOL.

 

[redshifteffect]

Selective quoting works well.

Check out these "prestigious" doctors in the US killed by their patients as well:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/23/home.invasion.ap/index.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940CEEDA113DEE32A25753C2A96E9C946397D6CF

http://www.courttv.com/trials/schwartz/030906_ctv.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/a-abortion/a-abortion22.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/25/news/mn-36077

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/

http://www.ksat.com/news/15795300/detail.html

Or in the UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/aug/16/ukcrime.rachelwilliams

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ctor-killed-in-revenge-attack-89520-19638679/

True salary range for dentists working for others:

http://www.ada.org.au/dentalprofessionals/positionsvacant.aspx

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I am frankly not surprised that this happens in the US, UK, and in other parts of the world. I was just refuting the assertion that Peter made about "respect" and many people resent doctors rather than respect them. Americans are probably the worst offenders and in virtually every English speaking country on Earth, foreign doctors are often subject to much harsher treatment than those who are not minorities.

I am already keenly aware of the fact that an Aussie MBBS will not necessarily mean that I will be able to practice in Australia. The fact remains that barriers to staying will in effect be difficult to surmount, the number of medical graduates are about to double by 2012 and its been noted that currently Australia does not have the capacity to guarantee all students access to postgraduate training, yet the country is experiencing a physician shortage.

Australians also pay among the highest tax rates in the world, and that means many people think doctors are obliging them and not the other way around. While I shadowed the Queensland GP I did note that some patients made remarks about getting their tax money's worth at the GP office. Medicare has also cracked down on GPs who overbilled Medicare. A GP of 40 years experience sat down with me and told me the cold hard reality of the profession, I will take it as gospel.

I have also had the opportunity to see several GP and Dental surgeries in Sydney and could not help but notice how much more plush most Dental surgeries were compared to those of GPs.

Its also indeed true that its a lot easier for internationals in Dentistry to work and stay in Australia than for medical students. This is probably due to the fact that Medicare does not pay for Dental services and the vast majority of Dental care is provided privately. Few graduates work in public dental clinics when they know that private work is easy to find and much more lucrative.

 

[redshifteffect]

Common misnomer.

US taxes aren't that much cheaper. Part of the problem is that the various states all have their own range of taxes which makes things so much more complicated. California has a state income tax of nearly 10% on top of the federal tax you pay. Some counties also have their own income tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf

In Australia you get so much more for your tax dollars then you would in the US.

Johnny, seriously though if you have an axe to grind that's cool. Its just not cool when you post half truths. Also did you take a look at the salary ranges that were quoted for starting Dentists vs. the salary range I posted for GPs? They weren't the 200k you were saying you'd get after graduation. Keep in mind these are real jobs that are being advertised in real practices.

Dentists in the US are not exempted from murder either:

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/cont...shooting_main.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=7

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Australia has a lot of hidden taxes. Clothing is ultra expensive in Oz, a pair of sneakers that you could get for less than 50 dollars in North America can easily set you back a couple of hundred bucks. Electronics and autos are expensive. A Honda Accord is around 40k AUD nicely equipped while most dealerships in North America are practically giving them away at less than half. There are high tariffs on manufactured goods that come into Australia that make them hard to afford.

I agree that Australia is a nice place to live overall but I just don't want to give people the idea that its some kind of perfect utopia, because its far from it. I think the medical profession overall in Australia is a great way to earn a living but for those of us who are foreigners we have substantial hurdles to cross and I find it rather foolish that the Australian government and AMC is creating these hurdles when they claim there is a doctor shortage. Its already well known that the Dental crisis is far more severe, and nearly 10 percent of the population cannot even see a Dentist. I even had a personal experience where I had to wait over a month to get an appointment to see a Dentist in Sydney. If I had to see a doctor, I could just walk into the clinic at UNSW. I even had to see an ENT while I was there and it only took me a week to see him. Even in the US I would wait longer under our private system. Most of the doctor shortage is in rural Australia, the major cities seem to be adequately staffed.

 

[redshifteffect]

I don't think anyone is calling Australia a perfect utopia by any means! Some things are cheaper, and others are expensive here. For example if you buy things online from the US there is no import duty on items < $1000 AUD. That right there makes things a lot cheaper to buy online then in other countries. In Canada a t-shirt I bought from the US for $15, ended up having $20 of import duty.

Clothing is expensive, but just like the US it's mainly brand names. If you go for the mid ranged brands you can get comparable prices. Sales are definitely better in the US. Dude a friend of mine bought a Honda Accord for the same price as what a family member of mine paid in Canada. I don't think you can get them for half price (in Canada). When we were shopping around for that car (in Canada) there is no way they were selling (brand new) for $20 k AUD. Again as mentioned before, luxury cars have higher price tags because of higher import duties. Easy to skirt that by taking the car out of the country twice. It's not worth it on a BMW but definitely worth it on a Ferrari.

Dont' even get me started on electronics. Some (like game consoles) are more expensive but things like monitors, web cams etc. are the same price! I know because I always compare prices before I buy anything. Warranties in Oz are the best in the world. I bought a router in futureshop and they packed a (likely returned) non functional router in the wrong box and reshrink wrapped it, when I went to return it because it wasn't working (the next day) and the serial numbers were off they said tough luck see the manufacturer. Their price match is also a bunch of BS! They refused to give me their 110% guarantee on an item that was selling for $20 less in their own chain (at Best Buy). In Oz even if I do pay more for an item, I can walk in and get my money back or the item refunded no questions asked. That's why I have no hesitation in buying electronics from Oz, even if I can save a few bucks in Canada. Best of all price matching is real. I walk in with a print out for a product being sold on the internet (in an Australian shop) and they price match for me. I've done this at all the major chains and never had an issue.

http://www.buysell.com/root/detail/...NDA_ACCORD_EX_L_4dr_Automatic.aspx?class=2100

Lifestyle is the key in the end. The average person here has a better lifestyle then in other parts of the world. Especially in the medical field.

I agree that the Australian government needs to do more to help find adequate training for their graduates, but it's not like they aren't doing anything. The problem is it's not easy to simply increase training positions as you have to make sure there's enough patients/samples to see as well as enough supervision.

No one is arguing Dentistry is the better deal for internationals; however I don't think people should assume they are going to be making 200k right out of dental school either. Looks like real world figures show between 80-150k (see link above).

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Well actually the Aussie has gotten a lot weaker lately, its like .67 US cents but for a while was nearly on parity. Honda Accords average 20k well equipped in the states. I have seen basic models for around 19k with tax.

Lifestyle is the big selling point of Australia, I agree with that wholeheartedly that Aussies in general have it better than most of the world and even better than many Americans. I just feel that Dentistry will be able to get me to that goal in the current climate than Medicine. Maybe people will not be impressed with me but I really could not care less about that. Anyway many Dentists in Australia actually do go back and get a medical degree to specialize in certain fields.

Still there are like 10 new medical schools that have opened up over the past few years, while only one new Dental program has opened during the same span. There will be around 3000 medical graduates in Australia after 2012, if you extrapolate this to the US, thats like having 45,000 medical graduates in the States, thats a lot of students.

Peter says Dentistry sucks as a profession, the fool does not understand what he is saying. The guy should look on the British boards, the people on those forums are cursing each other out angry about the disaster happening there where there are not enough training spaces for graduates. Already the student association at USyd believes that Australia is following the British path. The fact that he got a 4 or a 5 on his VR will say to medical schools that he cannot communicate in English. People become professionals to make a much bigger some of money than your average plumber or taxi driver. Like it or not Medicine is a profession that is associated with money, if I was not mistaken there were a lot of rich kids at UNSW Medicine
among both locals and internationals.

 

[redshifteffect]

I have little experience with cars in the US admittedly. I do however have plenty of experience with the cost of living in Ontario, Canada.

Don't forget though the Australian dollar hasn't been at parity until very recently. When I first came to Oz it was about what it is now, and stayed that way for a while.

Prices are comparable for a lot of things, and you can't get a brand new Accord for 20k CAD in Canada. Lot of hidden taxes/stamp duties etc in Canada on the sticker price. Not so in Oz, the sticker price is the walk away price.

If you think Dentistry is the way to go, that's great. It's a great profession and you can pay off your loans without much risk. But why all the nonsense about Doctors getting murdered?

Doesn't seem like a very logical/factual argument for a person who's about to care for people's lives.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I was just using dramatic examples, Peter was harping on me saying that Doctors are respected like saints while Dentists are money grubbers, I was just pointing out that the reality is not quite the ideal. Doctors overall I believe are treated well in Australia but they are not seen as saints or angels.

I have also had a lot of horrible experiences in the US with the healthcare system, the HMO I have is a nightmare to deal with, and doctors make it worse.

 

[redshifteffect]

But Peter has never worked as a doctor or a Dentist, so why take any stock in his opinion?

There is not as much glamour in medicine as they make it look like on TV. When you've had to participate in an emergency surgery with a patient who has had faecal incontinence on the operating table then you quickly realise that the stuff on TV is just a bunch of BS.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

I agree on another thread the ***** is talking about applying to Dental school since he failed his MCATs. There was another fool who decided to attack me as well.

The fact remains as an international medical student you are at the mercy of the Australian government with regards to residencies. The fact also remains that they will likely push you into an area that no sane Aussie will go to, the vast majority of foreign doctors will have to go to rural areas.
I already got into contact with some USyd BDent graduates who have been able to open up shop in upmarket areas of Sydney, and several of them were internationals.

 

[Peter59]

Peter says Dentistry sucks as a profession, the fool does not understand what he is saying. The guy should look on the British boards, the people on those forums are cursing each other out angry about the disaster happening there where there are not enough training spaces for graduates. Already the student association at USyd believes that Australia is following the British path. The fact that he got a 4 or a 5 on his VR will say to medical schools that he cannot communicate in English.

Johnny,

Why should I have anything against you when I don't even know you? But, I don't think it's very respectful to use bad words against me even if I said dentistry sucks. Try to be polite and argue rationally, you're a future dentist for god sake. Regarding dentistry sucks I really didn't mean it totally sucks. Compare to medicine which you draw diagnosis based on observation and examination and the amount of reasoning needed and bla bla that we all know, dentistry is like a repetitive mechanical job at least as a general dentist. But, it doesn't mean since it's mechanical it sucks. To my opinion, it does. But it's just my opinion, you don't have to take it. It's a forum, people express their ideas freely. Act democratic.

As FOR THE 4 ON MY MCAT VERBAL SECTION which apparently you're very obsessed with it, yeah I'm very proud of that and I never hide it. You know why, because I moved to North America when I was 23. I started over my undergrad and had to work hard to learn English and at the same time get A's since I was already very much decided to become a doctor. If you wanna knock me down, Be fair. Why don't you mention my 3.87 sGPA in a tough cell bio honours program and my 10s on both bio and physical sections. Yeah, I worked my a** off to get straight A's while struggling to improve my English abilities. Is there anything wrong with it?? That someone worked hard 24/7 in the library to pursue his dream and he has been turned down (for now) because he was not in North America when he was a kid. And I'm sure a doctor doesn't need to know those complex political/philosophical passages to treat his patients. Anyways, I'm working hard to prove myself and I'm so proud of that.

Regarding my posts about Aussie and the doc business there, I try to contribute to this forum since I got a lot of info from reading these posts. What I post here is info I get from my brother who is a registrar doctor in Aussie and I "think" his info has to be correct, right??? So believe me I don't get my info out of nowhere and if you guys think I'm misleading let me know I won't post anymore.

 

[redshifteffect]

Pete,

Any information you got is definitely useful to everyone - so don't stop posting. Let's just try and leave out the personal attacks.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Johnny,

Why should I have anything against you when I don't even know you? But, I don't think it's very respectful to use bad words against me even if I said dentistry sucks. Try to be polite and argue rationally, you're a future dentist for god sake. Regarding dentistry sucks I really didn't mean it totally sucks. Compare to medicine which you draw diagnosis based on observation and examination and the amount of reasoning needed and bla bla that we all know, dentistry is like a repetitive mechanical job at least as a general dentist. But, it doesn't mean since it's mechanical it sucks. To my opinion, it does. But it's just my opinion, you don't have to take it. It's a forum, people express their ideas freely. Act democratic.

As FOR THE 4 ON MY MCAT VERBAL SECTION which apparently you're very obsessed with it, yeah I'm very proud of that and I never hide it. You know why, because I moved to North America when I was 23. I started over my undergrad and had to work hard to learn English and at the same time get A's since I was already very much decided to become a doctor. If you wanna knock me down, Be fair. Why don't you mention my 3.87 sGPA in a tough cell bio honours program and my 10s on both bio and physical sections. Yeah, I worked my a** off to get straight A's while struggling to improve my English abilities. Is there anything wrong with it?? That someone worked hard 24/7 in the library to pursue his dream and he has been turned down (for now) because he was not in North America when he was a kid. And I'm sure a doctor doesn't need to know those complex political/philosophical passages to treat his patients. Anyways, I'm working hard to prove myself and I'm so proud of that.

Regarding my posts about Aussie and the doc business there, I try to contribute to this forum since I got a lot of info from reading these posts. What I post here is info I get from my brother who is a registrar doctor in Aussie and I "think" his info has to be correct, right??? So believe me I don't get my info out of nowhere and if you guys think I'm misleading let me know I won't post anymore.

Well obviously you should not comment about Australia if you do not have any Australian experience or have not even been in Australia. The system down under is nothing like the system in North America. Spend more time in a Western country and you will become a lot more cynical about things. I know for a fact that the attitude towards Overseas doctors in Australia has become more hostile especially since the case in Queensland. Its not as fair go as it might have been a little while back, and the fact is that the Australian government has drastically increased the number of student places in medical school to a level that if every single graduate remains in the country, they will not all be able to get into training programs if there are no drastic increases in internships and post graduate programs. Spend more time shadowing a GP, its not rocket science at all. Dentistry is not as simple as people think, it can actually be quite a challenging profession and the level of intelligence required is as high as that for medicine. The fact remains that right now, Australian hospitals will not be adequately prepared to train all the new graduates who will be receiving their medical degrees in Australia.

In fact, many Australian dentists obtain a medical degree for certain fields like facial surgery. At many universities in Australia, both Dental and Medical students take the same basic science courses, this is the case at USyd and even I believe at UWa.

Its been commented repeatedly on this board that its quite difficult for medical students to stay in Australia to work, considering the drastic increases in medical school enrollment it will become very hard for students starting in 2009 onward.

Since your interest in medicine is obvious, I would say forget about Australia, if you cannot get into a Canadian medical school, try a US Osteopathic medical school, MD or DO, it does not matter in North America except in one lame Canadian province.

Medicine is not as glamorous as one might think, ever been to a Gastroenterologist? They look at the other opening besides the mouth.

 

[Peter59]

Med is such a rewarding profession, fair money, lifestyle sucks, so prestigious, You impress anybody, you're pictured as a holy person who can relieve people's pain, no need to repeat your education at lease before become specialized.

Medicine is not as glamorous as one might think, ever been to a Gastroenterologist? They look at the other opening besides the mouth.

Johnny,

That's what I'm trying to say. Med is a demanding profession. one won't be able to handle the work load and dirty tasks unless he's so devoted to serve people or the money is so high that he doesn't mind check their a**. If not, it doesn't worth the money you get out of it.
Dent is easier and less challenge. The money is much better considering less hours and stress. So, nothing is wrong with dent, it's more than great if we only consider the pay check and a better choice for going to Aussie at least.

I'm not saying that all docs are holy and all dents are not impressive. What I have observed regarding dents (that I have talked to) the only thing they talk about is money and business. Maybe they're right, because they're job needs good business abilities. I would say the other reason is that since their job is boring and repetitive that they don't wanna talk about it outside their office. Most of the docs (that I have talked to) they tell you these interesting stories about patients they have visited and wired stuff they encounter everyday. I believe it should be interesting for them that even outside their job they keep on talking about them with their friends and family. Again, it might be a limited group of docs and dentists I have encountered and might be a generalization.

I totally agree with you regarding going to aussie for med. My brother keep telling me that he doesn't see a good prospect regarding intern position or residency position for future intl aussie grads. That's why I turned down my two interviews from aussie schools. He attended an interview for a pathology residency and they refused him since he's not a PR yet. The position is not even filled, but they prefer not to give it to a non-PR doctor who has already worked in their hospital for more than 2 years. That's not very appealing to me. It's discrimination I believe but you can't help it. The same thing happens in Canada (to IMGs not to intl Can grad) even worse , but at least they're honest and tell you that you don't have any chance. that's why IMGs don't even try Canada, they already know that it's a closed door. But in Aussie they make your hopes high and at the end when you spent more than 200k, they still don't kick you out. They make such a situation that you prefer to leave since you feel you don't have much chance (for a demanding specialty like surgery) as an intl aussie grad.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Dent is easier and less challenge.

Careful...

I don't think you can say that unless you've completed both a dental and a medical degree. Both are challenging (sometimes for different reasons).

I know someone who completed medical school and 2 years of "residency" and then started dental school and dropped out in the middle of the 2nd year because it was too difficult. Soo...

 

[redshifteffect]

Sorry Peter,

I'm not a PR, nor do I have "two years" of residency experience but I got a path residency, in the most competitive state. Maybe your brother hasn't figured out how the system works, or just didn't do well on the interview.

They definitely do not discriminate based on residency status. As for Surgery, 2 of the 4 General surgery registrars that I work with (all accredited positions) based in Melbourne (with their secondment rotations in Tasmania) are former international students of ethnic chinese malaysian origin. Another registrar I've spoken to is a Canadian who graduated from Sydney (in Surgery as well). It's difficult to get into surgery but not impossible.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Johnny,

That's what I'm trying to say. Med is a demanding profession. one won't be able to handle the work load and dirty tasks unless he's so devoted to serve people or the money is so high that he doesn't mind check their a**. If not, it doesn't worth the money you get out of it.
Dent is easier and less challenge. The money is much better considering less hours and stress. So, nothing is wrong with dent, it's more than great if we only consider the pay check and a better choice for going to Aussie at least.

I'm not saying that all docs are holy and all dents are not impressive. What I have observed regarding dents (that I have talked to) the only thing they talk about is money and business. Maybe they're right, because they're job needs good business abilities. I would say the other reason is that since their job is boring and repetitive that they don't wanna talk about it outside their office. Most of the docs (that I have talked to) they tell you these interesting stories about patients they have visited and wired stuff they encounter everyday. I believe it should be interesting for them that even outside their job they keep on talking about them with their friends and family. Again, it might be a limited group of docs and dentists I have encountered and might be a generalization.

I totally agree with you regarding going to aussie for med. My brother keep telling me that he doesn't see a good prospect regarding intern position or residency position for future intl aussie grads. That's why I turned down my two interviews from aussie schools. He attended an interview for a pathology residency and they refused him since he's not a PR yet. The position is not even filled, but they prefer not to give it to a non-PR doctor who has already worked in their hospital for more than 2 years. That's not very appealing to me. It's discrimination I believe but you can't help it. The same thing happens in Canada (to IMGs not to intl Can grad) even worse , but at least they're honest and tell you that you don't have any chance. that's why IMGs don't even try Canada, they already know that it's a closed door. But in Aussie they make your hopes high and at the end when you spent more than 200k, they still don't kick you out. They make such a situation that you prefer to leave since you feel you don't have much chance (for a demanding specialty like surgery) as an intl aussie grad.

That is exactly what I have said, future prospects for international students in Australian medical schools will not be as good as they are now.
Things for Dentistry are still good and will remain so for a while because the powers that be in Australia have not drastically increased the number of seats in Dental schools. If you are going to Australia with the hope of studying medicine and staying the prospects for graduates are not looking good. I also recently was offered a seat in an American medical school and frankly speaking I was sold on the lifestyle of Australia so much I will be content as a Dentist. They both require hard work, but I see a more of a sure thing in Dentistry.

You really seem keenly interested in Medicine, I say get a tutor to help you raise your VR score and then apply to more North American MD and DO schools.

 

[Theillestill]

Is there anything wrong with it?? That someone worked hard 24/7 in the library to pursue his dream and he has been turned down (for now) because he was not in North America when he was a kid. And I'm sure a doctor doesn't need to know those complex political/philosophical passages to treat his patients. Anyways, I'm working hard to prove myself and I'm so proud of that.

I'm pretty sure I'd like to have a practitioner that knows about all those complex political/philosophical passages if I'm going to be talking to them about my problems.

 

[rugbyMD]

The fact remains that right now, Australian hospitals will not be adequately prepared to train all the new graduates who will be receiving their medical degrees in Australia.

Don't forget not all international med graduates are interested in staying in Australia. Lots of Canadians I know are determined to return, plus I believe the students from Singapore and Malaysia return to their respective countries to complete their internships. Although I'm not 100% sure how it works for them.