Palo Alto University

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Kriya said:
Incidentally -- to put the Consortium's 17% acceptance rate (51/300) in context, APA data show an admissions rate of 35-39% in 2010-2011 across all clinical PsyD programs.

www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/research/2006-2010-report.pdf
www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/.../2011-doctoral-summary.pdf
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It still doesn't make sense to me why anyone with options would go to a program that costs 300K with living expenses. If your options are CSPP vs. PAU--I completely get why someone would pick PAU. The PsyD program's outcomes are def. better than any other professional school in CA (but not outside of CA).

It also makes sense to me that students from this program would be motivated to improve the reputation of the program by posting on this forum. Unfortunately, whenever this program comes up in conversation with other psychologists/supervisors, they always mention the hefty price tag first and still view it as a professional school.
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Doctor Eliza said:
I will say that the two PAU students who have responded to this thread seem to really like their school and want to defend it. That's something. Even after my 1st year, I knew I would never encourage others to attend my grad school (for completely different reasons than are being discussed here).

Dr. E
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Good (even great) psychologists can and do come out of any program (same for mediocre or bad ones), but I still don't think $150-200k or more in debt is justifiable for a PhD or PsyD, regardless of the quality of the training. Unless you have a guaranteed military repayment plan, it's far too risky, IMO.
 
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The arguments (besides money) are kind of ridiculous and malicious. :sleep:The idea that a minority (students) cannot give information about their experience is the same faulty logic that majority should vote for minority rights (think of gay rights/civil rights). It seems sad that psychologists are being so negative towards others education. Anyway, if someone wants factual info about PAU, I will be happy to discuss info in a private message. BTW, a student just obtained a postdoc position at the PAVA which is not out of the norm. PAU offers many amazing opportunities (relationship with PAVA, health psychology emphasis, meditation & psychology emphasis) and I have had many wonderful practicum training experiences. I have defended my dissertation and have landed over a dozen internship interviews. I would love to have a fair discussion. The argument of 'I have known one person who feels this about the school' is surprising, coming from a psychologist (or soon to be). Our school has it's issues, but what school doesn't? I am proud of my education and the achievements of my peers. Anyway, happy early Valentines Day and good luck to everyone on match day! Fingers crossed that we all make it alive :love:
 
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jenna1 said:
BTW, a student just obtained a postdoc position at the PAVA which is not out of the norm. PAU offers many amazing opportunities (relationship with PAVA, health psychology emphasis, meditation & psychology emphasis) and I have had many wonderful practicum training experiences. /QUOTE]

I don't know how often students get hired for VA positions in the bay area though. There is only one PAU PsyD graduate on staff at the Palo Alto VA as a psychologist and only 1 at the SF VA. Therefore, this is not a common career path that graduates can rely on locally. The only reason why I bring this up is because prospective students may hear this and believe that they can land a cushy VA job in the bay area due to the school's affiliation.

Good luck with the match process. If you have data on where students end up this year (actual sites) after the match it would be great to post it for prospective students interested in going to this program.
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That is a very legitimate reason for many not to go. However, it's odd to discredit an entire program b/c of one terrible aspect. The tuition does suck and I am not asking you or anyone else to go to PAU. There are many factors one must consider and it's good to know what is important to you. However, to act as if the program is terrible based on one terrible aspect is a ridiculous way to examine other peoples experience and training. I also find this post to come at a really difficult time (internship). Anyway, my supervisor at PAVA went to a small university and the issues that he has shared about his program sound terrible (the 'abuse' with research advisors etc.). No school is exempt from issues. I agree that money is an issue but I do not agree that our training is not adequate or that we cannot obtain APA internships. This isn't 'cognitive dissonance' speaking. I have been very satisfied with my training and the opportunities that have been available to me.
 
This may be true (about obtaining a job at PAVA). However, this is not an issue of the school. I find this to be an an issue with the limited spaces and many therapists in CA (and people wanting to re-locate). Not everyone goes to our school with the desire to work at PAVA or to even live in CA. With any field, one must consider career goals and the reality of opportunity. Why would a university and/or grad school guarantee a job at a different establishment? It's also nice to not have homogeneity b/c we know what that can look like at an establishment (or you should).
 
The thing is that there are always good students who will rise to the top. That's not who we're concerned about.
 
Are you concerned about being at the bottom?
 
No, we're concerned about the bad to mediocre students who spend a ton of money, go into debt, and enter the field to get a low-paying job in a high-cost area (let's face it, most CA prof school PsyD students are not leaving the area).

I admit that my dislike of profesisonal PsyD programs is not entirely altruistic. Even with the possibility that maybe these students are independently wealthy and not going to drown in debt, the fact remains that large class sizes create even more of a bottleneck in already-strained system that is being taken over by Masters-level providers.

If it helps though, I dislike the PsyD model in and of itself--so it's not just this program.
 
Why would you worry about so-called 'mediocre' students (which is sad, b/c I'm not sure you have seen my peers research or practicum work)? Would they be a threat to YOU getting a job? If that's true, you should examine this more closely. Are you worried about them saturating the job market? Why would 'okay' therapists win over the competition for jobs? Are you saying people have NO ability to give proper interviews? I'm not sure why the 'lower' students (which I'm not sure what people are basing this on) are a problem. I understand legitimate issues. However, it is clear there is a grudge against our school (on this forum) which makes one wonder if it's not a jealous intern wannabe or 'mediocre' psychologist in the field. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just curious about all of the misinformation and persistent dislike against PAU.
 
jenna1 said:
That is a very legitimate reason for many not to go. However, it's odd to discredit an entire program b/c of one terrible aspect. The tuition does suck and I am not asking you or anyone else to go to PAU. There are many factors one must consider and it's good to know what is important to you. However, to act as if the program is terrible based on one terrible aspect is a ridiculous way to examine other peoples experience and training.
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Ya. I agree. Some may have cognitive dissonance, others have the urge to discredit everything based on one icky aspect. Heck, I go to a fully-funded program and there are definitely issues besides money. Yeah, I may come out with no debt, but it seems so many of us are faced with the dilemma of our training not being completely suitable for where we'd ideally like to end up. But that's life.

ETA: I don't know much at all about PAU, but I'll reiterate that I'm positive that the anti-PsyD machine ought to look at the FSPS's with 100+ cohorts. These are the schools that are bottlenecking things.
 
I'm in the PhD program. The PsyD students are mostly placed at PAVA. What school are you from? You should feel happy that your school costs less and will (according to this forum) give you more opportunity. So, you are just upset that others have an opportunity and have made the assumption they are not smart enough to obtain? I'm not sure what the issue is. Don't go if it's an issue. However, we should feel supportive of each other if we truly love this field. We have MANY people offering free services to underserved populations (practicum) and we generate research that will contribute to helping others. Sad that instead of being proud, we insult each other's educational choices and feel smug about our own abilities. This is interesting. Well, I know who I would rather have as a therapist.
 
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jenna1 said:
I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just curious about all of the misinformation and persistent dislike against PAU.
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I don't get the impression that anyone takes issue with PAU specifically. The cost is the main issue for me as with all professional schools. Every psychologist I know who took out over 100K in loans regrets this decision and feels very limited by debt (limited career wise, where they can live, buying a house etc). I haven't met anyone who does not regret it. I wonder how you will feel in 5 years from now?
 
I'll feel better than not being in this field. Money is an issue, however, so is passion. I didn't go in this field to make money and have no problem not being rich. I am just happy and honored to be doing what I do. So that may be 'silly' to some. For me, it makes sense.
 
Why would you worry about so-called 'mediocre' students (which is sad, b/c I'm not sure you have seen my peers research or practicum work)? Would they be a threat to YOU getting a job? If that's true, you should examine this more closely. Are you worried about them saturating the job market? Why would 'okay' therapists win over the competition for jobs? Are you saying people have NO ability to give proper interviews? I'm not sure why the 'lower' students (which I'm not sure what people are basing this on) are a problem. I understand legitimate issues. However, it is clear there is a grudge against our school (on this forum) which makes one wonder if it's not a jealous intern wannabe or 'mediocre' psychologist in the field. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just curious about all of the misinformation and persistent dislike against PAU.
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It's a simple question of supply and demand. Too much supply results in less demand and lower wages. Saturating the market is bad for all of us, regardless of training.

I'm not saying that only PAU has mediocre psychologists-in-training. My program has them too (or maybe I'm one, who knows). But at least the mediocre ones in my program will graduate without so much debt, which will be far better if they struggle in the job market. My point is that the cream will rise to the top no matter what program they attend, but most people are not going to be in that percentile (given what we know about normal distributions).
 
jenna1 said:
I'll feel better than not being in this field. Money is an issue, however, so is passion. I didn't go in this field to make money and have no problem not being rich. I am just happy and honored to be doing what I do. So that may be 'silly' to some. For me, it makes sense.
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I definitely enjoy what I do but believe you me, the "passion" and the "honor" definitely wears off after a year or two when the financial reality sets in. I was you about 10 years ago (except about five percentage points lower in interest rates and about 100-150K less in principal, give or take).
 
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Well good for you! You have nothing to pay back (give or take) and have become burnt out in your field. Self-care any?
 
cara susanna said:
Saturating the market is bad for all of us, regardless of training.
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Yes, this. In a field that already has to battle its image, saturating the market regardless of training is not helping matters.

BTW, Jenna, people from your own program who are in the PsyD program have spoken poorly about the PAU PhD program. So perhaps those outside of PAU aren't the only jealous ones.
 
My supervisor has spoken badly about his small university program. However, I do not see his cohort making a discussion on this website. In addition, I work with a few students from the PsyD program so I guess your experience is canceled out (so many faulty arguments and case study examples)? However, you all have proven your points. I guess this is not a discussion forum. Bottom line: our program is a mistake (based on price) and we are all making terrible choices. This is silly. Like I said before, if someone is interested in learning more about the program (based on interest) I would be happy to discuss offline (or direct you to other students/professors). However, through the history of time schools have gone against each other and like to feel superior. I can only compare this to sport fans.
 
I have encountered MANY students from other schools bashing each other (and their program). So what is your point? I would love to find the utopia program where people are running free and offering each other a flower..oh wait, that's a Dove commercial. Understanding of human nature, any? Every practicum supervisor has made at least one complaint of their educational institutions. Some of those situations sounded traumatic. Oh, but that's okay b/c they paid less and so the only way to make it on this forum is if a program costs too much.
 
I think most posters are concerned with more of the macro problems associated with extreme debt and supply > demand that occur with far more frequency now. The APPIC data has shown a rise in avg debt over the last handful of yrs, which isn't good for students or the field.
 
jenna1 said:
I have encountered MANY students from other schools bashing each other (and their program). So what is your point? I would love to find the utopia program where people are running free and offering each other a flower..oh wait, that's a Dove commercial. Understanding of human nature, any? Every practicum supervisor has made at least one complaint of their educational institutions. Some of those situations sounded traumatic. Oh, but that's okay b/c they paid less and so the only way to make it on this forum is if a program costs too much.
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You posited that perhaps everyone who questions your program is jealous. I was merely pointing out that those from the PsyD portion of your program have pointed out problems with the PhD section of your school (lower match rates is what stood out), thus, you may want to add them to the list of people you need to educate on self-care, jealousy, etc. :)

I haven't met a single graduate student who hasn't had a list of complaints about their program. It's the nature of the beast. My fully funded program has a long list of flaws. Nobody here is saying fully funded schools = utopia. If they are then they are wearing the same rose colored glasses the valiant defenders of certain FSPS schools wear.
 
I can speak to my limited experience and say that the small handful of PAU/PGSP students I've met (I'm outside CA) seem to have been well-trained.

At the same time, I do think cara has a good point--particularly in already-saturated markets, being saddled with large amounts of debt could make anyone (superstar student or not) consider positions offering far less compensation than would otherwise be the case. This, then, is bad for the field as a whole. Edit: And JS does an excellent job of describing the general issues with training standards as a whole, which is a related problem, although perhaps not applicable to PAU specifically.

PAU graduates certainly wouldn't be alone if any of them were having difficulty finding jobs in California right now. Heck, people around me have probably spent an average of six months looking, either on internship or postdoc, to find their first job. But again, when you add the impending pressure of large debt into that equation, it can change the approach you take when job hunting, which can ultimately then cause employers to feel as though they can continue to offer less pay for the same work.

At the same time, we as a field have horrible histories of self-advocacy and in-fighting (just check out the recent SVT thread for those of you on the npsych listserve), which is probably one of the main reasons we continue to face declining reimbursement rates.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
At the same time, we as a field have horrible histories of self-advocacy and in-fighting (just check out the recent SVT thread for those of you on the npsych listserve), which is probably one of the main reasons we continue to face declining reimbursement rates.
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That SVT thread is ridiculous.. I can't believe one of the individuals involved used to be a board president.

Back to the PAU debate, I actually think the triple A threat (Antioch/Argosy/Alliant) damages our field much more than PAU does. Like others have stated, PAU does have quality faculty and some of their students do go on to be quite accomplished. I lump PAU with other expensive professional schools that produce some great trainees (like Nova in Florida) and wash out others. In essence, these pretty much fit the Vail model of professional training. I'm not sure why PhDs exist when you have to shell out 10x the cash an academic PhD would grant, but aside from that, I don't really have a problem with their model.

It's the big diploma mills that churn out 50-100+ cohorts that are the culprits. These are essentially Ponzi schemes developed by opportunistic individuals and need to be shut down. I actually think there is increasing awareness of this and perhaps in the next 10-15 years, we'll see some real action taking place (pull of accreditation, lawsuits, etc). If/when these programs are properly dealt with, we can reevaluate things.
 
Member6523 said:
That SVT thread is ridiculous.. I can't believe one of the individuals involved used to be a board president.
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Aside: I got off of npsych awhile ago now because out of the neuropsych forums I've been a part of, I felt it was the least professional and the most annoying.

Regarding this thread - had to catch up a little bit, but happy that JS could create a reasonable context with which to view the discussion.
 
Member6523 said:
It's the big diploma mills that churn out 50-100+ cohorts that are the culprits. These are essentially Ponzi schemes developed by opportunistic individuals and need to be shut down. I actually think there is increasing awareness of this and perhaps in the next 10-15 years, we'll see some real action taking place (pull of accreditation, lawsuits, etc). If/when these programs are properly dealt with, we can reevaluate things.
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A little bird told me that enrollment has been decreasing at one of the local diploma mills around town here. Hopefully this trend continues.
 
cara susanna said:
My point is that the cream will rise to the top no matter what program they attend, but most people are not going to be in that percentile (given what we know about normal distributions).
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Don't be silly. I'm sure 90-95% of psychology doctoral students are well above 50th percentile. :D
 
Member6523 said:
That SVT thread is ridiculous.. I can't believe one of the individuals involved used to be a board president.
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How long have you been on there? That guy emotionally bleeds all over the place on there. Its embarrassing.
 
Pragma said:
A little bird told me that enrollment has been decreasing at one of the local diploma mills around town here. Hopefully this trend continues.
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It's decreasing at law schools too. As job prospects continue to go downhill for professional students of various stripes, and debt loads increase, this might be what the higher education bubble looks like when it pops - kind of like it's got holes in it and is slowly deflating over time?
 
Member6523 said:
That SVT thread is ridiculous.. I can't believe one of the individuals involved used to be a board president.

Back to the PAU debate, I actually think the triple A threat (Antioch/Argosy/Alliant) damages our field much more than PAU does. Like others have stated, PAU does have quality faculty and some of their students do go on to be quite accomplished. I lump PAU with other expensive professional schools that produce some great trainees (like Nova in Florida) and wash out others. In essence, these pretty much fit the Vail model of professional training. I'm not sure why PhDs exist when you have to shell out 10x the cash an academic PhD would grant, but aside from that, I don't really have a problem with their model.

It's the big diploma mills that churn out 50-100+ cohorts that are the culprits. These are essentially Ponzi schemes developed by opportunistic individuals and need to be shut down. I actually think there is increasing awareness of this and perhaps in the next 10-15 years, we'll see some real action taking place (pull of accreditation, lawsuits, etc). If/when these programs are properly dealt with, we can reevaluate things.
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The torrents of student loan money are what keep the "triple A threat" institutions alive, it provides an enormous market distortion and creates "zombie institutions" that otherwise based on their outcomes and offerings shouldn't be able to survive in a free market.

Without the constant feeding from the public trough, I don't see institutions like those being able to survive in a much more competitive marketplace for tuition dollars. PAU might be able to exist (as T4C mentioned, you could look at them as occupying the "high performance sportscar" niche of FSPS, at least for California), but they'd have to significantly downsize their offerings and seriously cut out a huge chunk of their administration to be able to remain competitive with the professional schools that would remain.
 
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Therapist4Chnge said:
I'd like to hear more about this, but I don't want to derail this thread. Could you start a new thread about this?
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I don't really have specifics or links.

Basically, I was at a presentation with the President of the Ontario Psychological Association who said there is a push within CPA for more Psy.D. programs and Free Standing Professional Schools to produce more psychologists, particularly in rural areas. He mentioned there were some Psy.D. expansion proposals at the formal stage and that a FSPS proposal was recently rejected (but that more would likely be coming). He was a strong advocate for this approach to produce more psychologists in Canada.

Nevermind that pay for psychologists in rural areas is reduced in accordance with cost of living and that there is no shortage in the metropolitan areas. Of course this would produce more psychologists, but would it actually address the issue of getting services in underserved areas?
 
jenna1 said:
The PsyD students are mostly placed at PAVA.
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Like I said, I don't have a stake in this debate, but just wanted to clarify this point: PAU PsyD students are placed at PAVAHCS for practicum. They are generally not accepted there for internship. VA Palo Alto rarely, if ever, takes PsyD students for internship, regardless of their graduate program. I believe this may be explicitly stated in their internship brochure.
 
Whoa. You are a therapist? Your generalizations do not dignify any intelligent dialogue. Good day!..And good luck blaming everyone for your problems. It sounds like you lack many characteristics of a good therapist and now you are trying to blame others for that? Wow!
 
psychRA said:
Like I said, I don't have a stake in this debate, but just wanted to clarify this point: PAU PsyD students are placed at PAVAHCS for practicum. They are generally not accepted for internship. VA Palo Alto rarely, if ever, takes PsyD students for internship, regardless of their graduate program. I believe this may be explicitly stated in their internship brochure.
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I've never heard of this, but I'm willing to be surprised. I'll see if I can confirm or deny that in the next day or so.

To be fair, I'm not aware of any internship students at VAPAHCS who have been PsyD students over the past 5-7 years or so (which would be what I could comment on), much less PAU students. Again, I am aware of one PAU student (then PGSP) who landed a VAPAHCS internship about 8-9 years ago, although he was from the PhD program, for what that's worth.
 
I am being supervisied by a PAU postdoc student (at PAVA). My friend just obtained a postdoc at PAVA. Show me the info about your school placing students at the local VA. I am interested in this information.
 
erg923 said:
How long have you been on there? That guy emotionally bleeds all over the place on there. Its embarrassing.
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Only a couple months. I may get off it soon...I'm tired of getting my inbox flooded with flame wars.
 
Well, then it seems may people will not learn about our program (research, practicum, experience) b/c they will ONLY discuss (it's not a for profit school btw) the money and all of the issues that surround psychology today. It's alway easy to have a scapegoat. I will not engage in this 'conversation' anymore. However, my offer stands that if any potentially interested students would like to learn more about the specifics, I am more than happy to talk about this. It' easy to have a witch hunt, but what about the solution? Well, start shutting our school down. Write your local newspaper, get this info out there. We could also discuss the issue on power/privilege and how many schools cater to that. I am thankful that there is MORE diversity in the filed of psychology..b/c I do NOT agree (do your own research) on the monopoly of testing (GRE's) and how many bright individuals are left out of the helping field based on early life opportunity. I was talking to a MD the other day, who was complaining (terrible) that minorities are becoming the norm in medical school. Anyway, I guess the field is changing and while I am not happy with some of the difficulties you have posed, I am happy that more people are gaining the opportunity to help people.
 
We are one school. We do not have locations all across the country.
 
Nope, never said everyone was jealous. I am just saying I wish we could have a fair discussion. Can we post the other schools that everyone is in? I am going to defend a school that I have had amazing training at and am proud of my work and my peers. Is that not allowed? Is this forum only to vent about our school? I though the initial question involved finding balance in view of our program.
 
jenna1 said:
I am being supervisied by a PAU postdoc student (at PAVA). My friend just obtained a postdoc at PAVA. Show me the info about your school placing students at the local VA. I am interested in this information.
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I think JeyRo's perspective is helpful given his position in the VA.

Regardless, as long as people are willing to use aggregate data when making claims about job placement (rather than just "I know this or that person" ) then I think it is helpful for people making a decision about a graduate program. For example, APA-accredited internships are required to post data on outcomes of their trainees and that factors into the decisions of a lot of people ranking sites. Such data may not be available for all graduate programs, and so people will do other things (like someone in this thread who read the VA staff lists and concluded there was only 1 PAU grad working in that VA).

So it sounds unfair to say that PAU students commonly obtain these jobs, given the low number of PAU graduates in the system outside of practica experiences. Unheard of - no - but it is worth truth in advertising. It does sound like PAU students do get VA jobs in other locations more often.

Like I said before, I don't really care about PAU (or CA for that matter), but if a thread pops up here about a specific program, I'd imagine that you can expect a variety of perspectives on it, especially if it comes with a huge pricetag.
 
I didn't say it was common, I just know that it happens and was disputing claims that it does not (without posting the peoples names...I am not sure how else to 'prove' this). However, not everyone is looking for a job at the VA. If a student thinks that they will obtain this (and it's guaranteed) that is not something that our school advertised. On a different note, the only 'private' emails I have gotten are people asking 'should I go to this school..will my credits transfer.' I am NOT an advisor and if that is the only question that is being asked (nothing mentioned about research opportunity etc.), I wonder about the people complaining about our school.
 
jenna1 said:
Nope, never said everyone was jealous. I am just saying I wish we could have a fair discussion. Can we post the other schools that everyone is in? I am going to defend a school that I have had amazing training at and am proud of my work and my peers. Is that not allowed? Is this forum only to vent about our school? I though the initial question involved finding balance in view of our program.
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I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that your program is crap. They're saying that the debt burden of PAU students is very high compared to the salaries that graduates can hope to earn. Cost might not be as important to you, but how do you justify the tuition rates when you recommend your program to people?
 
jenna1 said:
I didn't say it was common, I just know that it happens and was disputing claims that it does not (without posting the peoples names...I am not sure how else to 'prove' this). However, not everyone is looking for a job at the VA. If a student thinks that they will obtain this (and it's guaranteed) that is not something that our school advertised. On a different note, the only 'private' emails I have gotten are people asking 'should I go to this school..will my credits transfer.' I am NOT an advisor and if that is the only question that is being asked (nothing mentioned about research opportunity etc.), I wonder about the people complaining about our school.
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I guess I don't follow you. You've publicly identified yourself as a student there. You have publicly indicated that you'd be happy to answer questions via PM.

I am not sure how some SDN user PMing you asking about the program is associated with people complaining about your school.
 
I have said (how many times do I need to) that the cost is too high. I have NOT recommended my program. I am only trying to give another perspective from a happy student. However, unlike many of you on this post, I am not a member of the 'all or nothing' church. If money is the reason some would not want to go, then don't! If people consider many things (training, research, practicum, emphasis) than this is a program to look into. If you don't want another perspective, join a fb group that states 'I hate PAU.' I also don't believe that blaming one school for the imbalance that occurs all over the country is logical.
 
The things people are emailing about are cost. I said I would discuss my program. If you want to discuss cost, then contact a financial advisor at my school. If you want to discuss the actual program, I said I was open to this. It also felt like trolling b/c they made the comment that the question was answered via my school which felt like it was just a point being made that had NOTHING to do with the training.
 
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