Palo Alto University

[Doctor Eliza]

Actually, if you are used to growing up wealthy, I think you might want to consider a different field. I think someone who is used to a comfortable lifestyle might be really dissatisfied by the earning potential of a psychologist.

Dr. E

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[SFPsyd]

Private practice only these days. It's difficult to get fully going in PP but I'm glad I made the change. I previously worked at a large HMO but salaries there maxed out at around 120k with a pretty busy schedule to boot. I work around 30 hours/week currently with the potential to earn more if I were to work a full 40 (likely around 200k). That being said, there are certainly things I miss about salaried work, namely not having to worry about referrals, paid vacation, good benefits. So it's a gamble, and you definitely have to think of yourself as a "businessman first, psychologist second" rather than the other way around to make it big in PP. But so far I'm enjoying it.

That's a nice salary. Are you in PP or attending at a hospital?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

BTW PAU's consortium program includes the Palo Alto VA as kind of a captive externship site - so I don't think it's so much of a problem getting practica (although I do think there are increasing numbers of students at PAU having trouble getting a reasonable practicum placement) as it is getting quality research training.

Considering the combined internship applicant #'s of recent years for the Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs ('10-'11: 90, '11-'12: 114), I'd think securing a quality practica placement could be a very real concern, assuming those interns previously had to pursue practica training locally and compete against the other programs in the area. Are there any current CA students/interns/post-docs that could speak to the current practica/externship competition in CA?

 

[PHD12]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about that. I actually completely struck out when I applied for internship and didn't match to anything - but I ended up landing a quality APA internship in the Clearinghouse (although out of state). It was tough, but it ended up working out well for me. Still, would have much more appreciated staying in CA for internship and postdoc.
.

Good point. I forgot to mention to the OP, that another risk of going to any professional school, including PAU, is having to apply for internship multiple times. Internship sites in saturated areas like CA receive 120-200+ applications for 2-5 spots. This may extend the program to 6+ years, and cause significant emotional distress. I know some people who didn't match and had to get on meds to deal with all the emotional stress and uncertainty.

I also agree with Dr. E that this is not a good field for someone that is used to living very comfortably.

 

[PHD12]

Considering the combined internship applicant #'s of recent years for the Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs ('10-'11: 90, '11-'12: 114), I'd think securing a quality practica placement could be a very real concern, assuming those interns previously had to pursue practica training locally and compete against the other programs in the area. Are there any current CA students/interns/post-docs that could speak to the current practica/externship competition in CA?

Wow, I didn't realize that the cohort size was this enormous! I didn't attend any of these professional programs, but what I do know from my colleagues who are psychologists and post-docs in CA is that good sites will only take the top 10-20% (usually 3-4 students among many applications) and will only provide them with supervision from an intern/post-doc and with limited clinical duties. Many won't receive supervision from anyone licensed throughout the entire practicum. Obviously this is going to vary depending on the site.

As I'm interviewing for post-doc, I'm finding out that I will be the sole supervisor for students from these programs who train at the site. I will get training in supervision, but they won't work with anyone licensed.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

Considering the combined internship applicant #'s of recent years for the Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs ('10-'11: 90, '11-'12: 114), I'd think securing a quality practica placement could be a very real concern, assuming those interns previously had to pursue practica training locally and compete against the other programs in the area. Are there any current CA students/interns/post-docs that could speak to the current practica/externship competition in CA?

I'm in a fully funded research heavy PhD in CA and while I've done practica with FSPS students, I think they are all the cream of the FSPS crop. They are also very vocal about the fact that previous practica placements have been bad experiences with poor supervision and training opportunities. While students from my school are recruited to the local training sites, I get the impression that competition for the externship positions for FSPS students is tough. They also complete the practicum knowing they would not be considered for an internship position at the site. That has got to be tough.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Depends how wealthy. It wouldn't take much. 5 million dollars or so and you are looking at various investment returns, conservatively, in the $250,000 range per year. As a psychologist with a 50-60K single earner income, you're looking at 300K with pretty much lifetime wealth security if you don't mess it up. It's that whole Maslow thing. When you are rich, the concerns shift substantially with respect to lifestyle decisions. Further, the networking connections, capital access, etc . . . make setting up a functional private practice more likely, making the 50-60k issue something that probably won't be a factor regardless of the current wealth level.

I was thinking of the scenario where the rich parents cut you off when you are out of school, but with your scenario it might be different. If you don't have to rely on your own earnings to support your lifestyle, then go for it. But, probably not from a school with cohorts of 100. With that set up it is going to be hard to make it to your goal of a doctorate.

Dr. E

 

[PHD12]

The MSW is a much better fit for someone like FrontBlutt who doesn't want to leave CA and may not need to make much $. Why spend 250K and 5-6 years of your life for such uncertain outcomes?

The chances of getting weeded out of this field after you've invested 4-5 years (a possibility for anyone but especially for the professional school grad) seems like too much of a gamble to me.

 

[frontbluntt101]

Sorry in advance, I'm rather uninformed.

A post-doc for a clinical psychologist is sort of like applying to a job where you will be supervised and log hours for licensure right? Is it as competitive as finding an internship?

Also, can anyone recommend any respectable PsyD programs in California? I was looking at Pepperdine but it looks like they only take students with a master's degree.

Thanks in advance you guys have been really helpful.

 

[JeyRo]

Good point. I forgot to mention to the OP, that another risk of going to any professional school, including PAU, is having to apply for internship multiple times. Internship sites in saturated areas like CA receive 120-200+ applications for 2-5 spots. This may extend the program to 6+ years, and cause significant emotional distress. I know some people who didn't match and had to get on meds to deal with all the emotional stress and uncertainty.

That is absolutely a problem, and I've heard of it happening with PAU folks on a number of occasions (although again, this didn't happen to me - I basically lucked out in a big way with the Clearinghouse). The fun part about PAU (sarcasm) is that if you strike out completely with the Match I believe you still have to pay for the year while you're sitting around, not taking classes, and doing yet another practica (assuming you get a practicum placement).

 

[JeyRo]

Sorry in advance, I'm rather uninformed.

A post-doc for a clinical psychologist is sort of like applying to a job where you will be supervised and log hours for licensure right? Is it as competitive as finding an internship?

Also, can anyone recommend any respectable PsyD programs in California? I was looking at Pepperdine but it looks like they only take students with a master's degree.

Thanks in advance you guys have been really helpful.

I'm not sure there are any PsyD programs in California that I would consider particularly respectable. I consider Rutgers probable the standard by which PsyD programs are measured against, and there aren't too many others I'm aware of that come close.

Pepperdine probably is comparable to PAU in terms of overall reputation, which may not be saying much.

A postdoc is also known as a "residency" program for psychologists. If you plan on getting licensed in California as a psychologist, it's generally much easier, logistically, to get the required supervised hours to sit for licensure if you do it in a postdoc. Quality postdocs with decent stipends are competitive (e.g., ones that pay 30K-40K or more).

The alternative is to become a "psychological assistant" which is do-able, but I understand can be logistically challenging.

 

[PHD12]

Sorry in advance, I'm rather uninformed.

A post-doc for a clinical psychologist is sort of like applying to a job where you will be supervised and log hours for licensure right? Is it as competitive as finding an internship?

Also, can anyone recommend any respectable PsyD programs in California? I was looking at Pepperdine but it looks like they only take students with a master's degree.

Thanks in advance you guys have been really helpful.

You will need a post-doc in CA to get the hours and supervision for licensure. Pay is lower than a job (25-45K).

Post-doc and internship are extremely competitive, particularly in CA . I'm going through the post-doc process right now and there are 100-300 applications for approximately 3-10 spots (research post-docs get fewer applications). These sites require an APA internship and still get this many applications. Its so competitive in CA that there s a plethora of unpaid full-time post-docs. Every site is getting more applications each year and generally weed out the professional school students because there are too many highly qualified people who want to stay in CA and went to funded programs.

I don't think the PsyD is a good route in CA. Even pepperdine students typically have to go out of state for internship to land a spot. The only reputable PsyD programs are funded and have small class sizes (you are basically looking at Rutgers and Baylor).

 

[JeyRo]

You will need a post-doc in CA to get the hours and supervision for licensure. Pay is lower than a job (25-45K).

Post-doc and internship are extremely competitive, particularly in CA . I'm going through the post-doc process right now and there are 100-300 applications for approximately 3-10 spots (research post-docs get fewer applications). These sites require an APA internship and still get this many applications. Its so competitive in CA that there s a plethora of unpaid full-time post-docs. Every site is getting more applications each year and generally weed out the professional school students because there are too many highly qualified people who want to stay in CA and went to funded programs.

I don't think the PsyD is a good route in CA. Even pepperdine students typically have to go out of state for internship to land a spot. The only reputable PsyD programs are funded and have small class sizes (you are basically looking at Rutgers and Baylor).

Is Rutgers fully funded or partially funded? My understanding is the latter. Would appreciate knowing for sure - would give me basis for recommending it even more strongly.

 

[PHD12]

For those of you who are skeptical about how ridiculous it is to get a post-doc in CA. Here is data for just one non-prestigious hospital that can only take 5-6 applicants each year from the APPIC website:


Summary of the Characteristics of the Specified Post-Doc Class

Number of Completed Applications 110 (2010-2011) 199 (2011-2012) 380 (2012-2013)

This year the applications almost doubled yet again so we are looking at over 500 applications for just 6 spots. Some sites get fewer applications because they are highly specialized, but then take only 1-2 post-docs so the competition is still keen. This is why I recommend going to an excellent, funded program or staying out of this field entirely unless you can go anywhere in the country.

 

[CaliPsych]

I am a fourth year student in the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D. Consortium. I will try to answer some of the questions posed on this thread. Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions.

I've noticed in some of the responses on this thread, the Psy.D. and Ph.D. programs seemed to be lumped together as one program. I want to clarify that these are actually two separate programs, with separate faculty, courses, practicum opportunities, internship match rates, etc. When we apply for practicum and internship, we are identified as a separate program. My answers are applicable only to the Psy.D. program, since that is the program I am currently enrolled in.

As a few people have noted, the Psy.D. match rates are excellent (93%). Someone stated that students from our program don't get jobs at Stanford or at Palo Alto VA. This statement is not correct; we have alumni working in both settings, as well as in many other settings in the Bay Area and across the country. I think that the success of our alumni in obtaining prestigious internsips, postdocs, and jobs indicates that a degree from the Psy.D. program is in no way a "negative" on your CV. It's also not the case that only the top 10 or 20% of our class obtains good jobs. I think our high match rates clearly demonstrate that our students are doing well across the board.

The admissions standards for the Psy.D. program are also very high. Speaking for my cohort, most of us are graduates of Ivy League or top 20 undergraduate institutions, and most of us had masters degrees before entering the program. It is absolutely not accurate that only a "heartbeat and a FAFSA" are required for admission.

The Psy.D. program caps the cohort size at 30. I saw in one post that the program supposedly had 32 people in a cohort a few years ago. I'm honestly not sure if this is accurate, but I have heard many times from faculty that the cohort is capped at 30. It's safe to say that we always have close to 30 in a cohort, which feels like a manageable size. I have always received plenty of mentorship and personal attention from faculty members, and have not had the experience of fighting for resources because of the cohort size. I have never heard a classmate say that they missed out on a research or practicum opportunity because there were too many students competing for the opportunity. If anything, students often say that they don't have time to take advantage of all of the opportunities available to them. I have had the opportunity to get involved with a very prolific lab and have several publications, and all of my classmates who have wanted to get research experience have had no trouble doing so. With respect to practicum placements, which are competitive in the Bay Area, students from our program typically get one of their top choices. Again, I don't know anyone who has been dissatisfied with the practicum opportunities available to them.

Good luck to those of you who are trying to decide the best path forward. I hope that you will find a program that is well suited to your needs and goals.

 

[JeyRo]

I am a fourth year student in the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D. Consortium. I will try to answer some of the questions posed on this thread. Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions.

I've noticed in some of the responses on this thread, the Psy.D. and Ph.D. programs seemed to be lumped together as one program. I want to clarify that these are actually two separate programs, with separate faculty, courses, practicum opportunities, internship match rates, etc. When we apply for practicum and internship, we are identified as a separate program. My answers are applicable only to the Psy.D. program, since that is the program I am currently enrolled in.

As a few people have noted, the Psy.D. match rates are excellent (93%). Someone stated that students from our program don't get jobs at Stanford or at Palo Alto VA. This statement is not correct; we have alumni working in both settings, as well as in many other settings in the Bay Area and across the country. I think that the success of our alumni in obtaining prestigious internsips, postdocs, and jobs indicates that a degree from the Psy.D. program is in no way a "negative" on your CV. It's also not the case that only the top 10 or 20% of our class obtains good jobs. I think our high match rates clearly demonstrate that our students are doing well across the board.

The admissions standards for the Psy.D. program are also very high. Speaking for my cohort, most of us are graduates of Ivy League or top 20 undergraduate institutions, and most of us had masters degrees before entering the program. It is absolutely not accurate that only a "heartbeat and a FAFSA" are required for admission.

The Psy.D. program caps the cohort size at 30. I saw in one post that the program supposedly had 32 people in a cohort a few years ago. I'm honestly not sure if this is accurate, but I have heard many times from faculty that the cohort is capped at 30. It's safe to say that we always have close to 30 in a cohort, which feels like a manageable size. I have always received plenty of mentorship and personal attention from faculty members, and have not had the experience of fighting for resources because of the cohort size. I have never heard a classmate say that they missed out on a research or practicum opportunity because there were too many students competing for the opportunity. If anything, students often say that they don't have time to take advantage of all of the opportunities available to them. I have had the opportunity to get involved with a very prolific lab and have several publications, and all of my classmates who have wanted to get research experience have had no trouble doing so. With respect to practicum placements, which are competitive in the Bay Area, students from our program typically get one of their top choices. Again, I don't know anyone who has been dissatisfied with the practicum opportunities available to them.

Good luck to those of you who are trying to decide the best path forward. I hope that you will find a program that is well suited to your needs and goals.

Leaving aside everything else in your post for a moment: Apparently this website lists the PAU PsyD acceptance rate at 67%. Assuming this is accurate - how does that square with your statement, above, that "admission standards.... are very high" at PAU?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

As a few people have noted, the Psy.D. match rates are excellent (93%).

The match rate for APA-acred. sites is what matters most bc it is the standard for the field (and anything less will significantly limit job opportunities down the road). I believe the Psy.D. program has a pretty good APA-acred match rate, so that is a good thing. I don't know much about the Ph.D. program or stats, other than what I quote from the C-20 data and feedback from a former colleague who is a graduate (pre-PAU name change).

The Psy.D. program caps the cohort size at 30. I saw in one post that the program supposedly had 32 people in a cohort a few years ago. I'm honestly not sure if this is accurate, but I have heard many times from faculty that the cohort is capped at 30.

That was me. I took the number from the Admissions & Outcome Data (aka C-20 data) listed on the PAU Psy.D. website.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Leaving aside everything else in your post for a moment: Apparently this website lists the PAU PsyD acceptance rate at 67%. Assuming this is accurate - how does that square with your statement, above, that "admission standards.... are very high" at PAU?

Any #'s outside of what is reported on the program website should be taken with a large grain of salt, as the publisher has no actual obligation to get it 100% correct. However, it is an APA requirement for each APA-acred. program to publish certain educational and outcome data in a certain format, which is typically found on a program's website. This isn't always 100% accurate [see Parent & Williamson (2009 or maybe 2010?) comments on conflicting reported data], but I'd expect the majority of data found on program websites to be reflective of their actual outcomes.

 

[PHD12]

As a few people have noted, the Psy.D. match rates are excellent (93%). .

Thank you for the overly rosy view of the program. I was waiting for someone to come on to the forum and present all the positives. First of all, the APA match rates for the PsyD are actually between 68 to 84% for the past 5 years. For the PhD they are much worse. You are including APPIC. Secondly, majority from this program go out of state for internship (b/c they are not competitive in CA). Even people who work at the VA on this forum will tell you that its rare for these students to get placed at a VA in CA even though they do practicums here. Everyone I've met from this program had to go out of state or go to a less preferred site. Thirdly, I doubt everyone is happy with their placements since many don't even get supervision from a licensed psychologist. Lastly, given that there are close to 100 students who graduate from the PsyD and PhD program each year its not surprising that 4-5 landed psychologist positions at the Palo Alto VA over the past 10 years. I am looking at the faculty at Stanford School of Medicine online and I don't see any from your program actually. Maybe 1 or 2 have clinical instructor roles but I'm not able to find anyone on the website. This confirms my suspicion that the top 10% probably get those coveted spots.

I am not saying that the program is horrible or anything. There are clearly excellent clinicians that graduate from this program. Just not worth 250K, especially with a cohort of 30 and considering the mediocre reputation. The OP also wants to be able to stay in CA/bay area, which I don't think is very realistic (although possible) coming from this program.

 

[JeyRo]

Any #'s outside of what is reported on the program website should be taken with a large grain of salt, as the publisher has no actual obligation to get it 100% correct. However, it is an APA requirement for each APA-acred. program to publish certain educational and outcome data in a certain format, which is typically found on a program's website. This isn't always 100% accurate [see Parent & Williamson (2009 or maybe 2010?) comments on conflicting reported data], but I'd expect the majority of data found on program websites to be reflective of their actual outcomes.

That's a fair point. I'm honestly curious as to what the stats are on acceptance rates. I personally wouldn't be surprised if this 67% figure isn't far off.

Would like it if someone could find us a link to some actual, hard data on this.

 

[JeyRo]

Even people who work at the VA on this forum will tell you that its rare for these students to get placed at a VA in CA even though they do practicums here.

I can definitely recall one, and possibly two PAU students over the past 10 years who have gotten internships at the VAPAHCS (although there may have been more, not sure).

 

[PHD12]

They don't list the admission rate on their website.

Oh my! I was browsing the website and saw that tuition is actually 40K per year not 30K! That means its 200K in tuition plus another 100-150K to live in the bay area for 5-6 years. In reality, the cost is 300-350K.

 

[JeyRo]

They don't list the admission rate on their website.

Oh my! I was browsing the website and saw that tuition is actually 40K per year not 30K! That means its 200K in tuition plus another 100-150K to live in the bay area for 5-6 years. In reality, the cost is 300-350K.

That means, unless independent wealth is where you're at - private loans are required. Which means IBR won't save you from a lifetime of crushing loan repayments.

This means that over the last 10 years the cost to attend PAU has easily doubled, it may have actually tripled (based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations).

 

[PHD12]

That means, unless independent wealth is where you're at - private loans are required. Which means IBR won't save you from a lifetime of crushing loan repayments.

This means that over the last 10 years the cost to attend PAU has easily doubled, it may have actually tripled (based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations).

This has become so absurd. The median debt even for an MD is 120-150K (higher number is for private institutions). How are some psychologists taking out 300K in loans??? According to the APA, the median debt of PsyD graduates is on par with MD graduates, and 20% of PsyD's take out more than 160K.

 

[jnine]

like, thank you. (in response to JeyRo)

 

[CaliPsych]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to thank those of you who have kept the tone of this discussion civil. As future colleagues, I hope that we can all have a spirited discussion about our opinions without insulting each other.

I saw someone mention that the acceptance rate for the Psy.D. program is 67%. This website doesn't appear reputable to me. I have to confess that I don't actually know the admission rate for the program, but I find it impossible to believe that it is that high. I will look into it and post if I am able to find any additional information about this.

I would like to dispel the rumor that we don't receive supervision from licensed psychologists on practicum. I have no idea where that person got their information from, but that is 100% untrue. We are required to receive weekly supervision from a doctoral level, licensed clinician during our practica.

It is also untrue that students from the Psy.D. program do not obtain internship placements in CA. We have students place at VAs, college counseling sites, and other sites in CA every year. It is true that internships in the bay area are very competitive, but we do have students match in the Bay Area every year.

I agree with all of you that the cost of the program is very high. Certainly this is a major financial decision, and not one to be taken lightly. With that said, I have spoken with many graduates of our program who have found their loan repayment plans to be very manageable. I think this is a very personal decision, and I don't think general advice from a public message board is likely to be very helpful. If anyone would like to PM me for more information, please feel free.

 

[JeyRo]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to thank those of you who have kept the tone of this discussion civil. As future colleagues, I hope that we can all have a spirited discussion about our opinions without insulting each other.

I saw someone mention that the acceptance rate for the Psy.D. program is 67%. This website doesn't appear reputable to me. I have to confess that I don't actually know the admission rate for the program, but I find it impossible to believe that it is that high. I will look into it and post if I am able to find any additional information about this.

I would like to dispel the rumor that we don't receive supervision from licensed psychologists on practicum. I have no idea where that person got their information from, but that is 100% untrue. We are required to receive weekly supervision from a doctoral level, licensed clinician during our practica.

It is also untrue that students from the Psy.D. program do not obtain internship placements in CA. We have students place at VAs, college counseling sites, and other sites in CA every year. It is true that internships in the bay area are very competitive, but we do have students match in the Bay Area every year.

I agree with all of you that the cost of the program is very high. Certainly this is a major financial decision, and not one to be taken lightly. With that said, I have spoken with many graduates of our program who have found their loan repayment plans to be very manageable. I think this is a very personal decision, and I don't think general advice from a public message board is likely to be very helpful. If anyone would like to PM me for more information, please feel free.

Hi CaliPsych:

Thanks. So, if you can, could you find out the acceptance rate? 67% does sound pretty high, but PAU doesn't post this information on their website so it's the only info out there. Also, I imagine you're correct that "students match in the Bay Area every year" - but I would be surprised if that includes APA sites. CAPIC, APPIC, sure.

Finally, it looks like the average cost at PAU is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-350K per student for a 5 year program, from what I can gather (I'm terrible at math). Assuming that all of that cost is borne typically through loans, it would appear that 50-150K of PAU students' debt would need to be managed via non-Stafford loan vehicles (e.g., PLUS and private loans). From what I recall, PLUS loans and particularly private loans are not subject to any special loan repayment schemes (e.g., IBR, ICR), which would certainly affect "manageability" of student debt post-graduation. I agree if all of a PAU students' debt was accrued via Federal loans there is a potential for it to be more manageable (e.g., via a 10% IBR payment plan - although that still is a hefty chunk of change per month).

I continue to note that PAU (particularly the PsyD program) has an APA match rate higher than many FSPS out there, and seems to have a relatively decent reputation amongst professional schools. However, I still have trouble recommending it to anyone given my concerns about the above.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I believe that PLUS loans are actually eligible for the income-related loan repayment options (i.e., IBR, ICR) IF you consolidate them with a federal direct loan, and assuming the loan was made to the student and not a parent. Private loans definitely aren't eligible, though.

Although as has been mentioned before, by participating in those plans, you're of course having to hope that the programs stick around for the necessary 10-25 years. I personally don't know that I'd see them collapsing, but I could certainly see the terms changing, particularly if you aren't now already or soon will be "locked in" by having the payment agreement in place.

 

[deleted407083]

Hi CaliPsych:

Thanks. So, if you can, could you find out the acceptance rate? 67% does sound pretty high, but PAU doesn't post this information on their website so it's the only info out there. Also, I imagine you're correct that "students match in the Bay Area every year" - but I would be surprised if that includes APA sites. CAPIC, APPIC, sure.

Finally, it looks like the average cost at PAU is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-350K per student for a 5 year program, from what I can gather (I'm terrible at math). Assuming that all of that cost is borne typically through loans, it would appear that 50-150K of PAU students' debt would need to be managed via non-Stafford loan vehicles (e.g., PLUS and private loans). From what I recall, PLUS loans and particularly private loans are not subject to any special loan repayment schemes (e.g., IBR, ICR), which would certainly affect "manageability" of student debt post-graduation. I agree if all of a PAU students' debt was accrued via Federal loans there is a potential for it to be more manageable (e.g., via a 10% IBR payment plan - although that still is a hefty chunk of change per month).

I continue to note that PAU (particularly the PsyD program) has an APA match rate higher than many FSPS out there, and seems to have a relatively decent reputation amongst professional schools. However, I still have trouble recommending it to anyone given my concerns about the above.

I believe grad plus will qualify for IBR and other repayment plans, like the stafford loans. It also qualifies for the loan forgiveness plan.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loan...charts/public-service#what-loans-are-eligible

"Only loans you received under the William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan (Direct Loan) Program are eligible for PSLF. Loans you received under the Federal Family Education Loan (FFEL) Program, the Perkins Loan Program, or any other student loan program are not eligible for PSLF.

If you have FFEL and/or Perkins loans, you may consolidate them into a Direct Consolidation Loan to take advantage of PSLF. However, only payments you make on the new Direct Consolidation Loan will count toward the 120-month payment requirement for PSLF. Payments made on your FFEL or Perkins loans, even if they were made under a qualifying repayment plan, do not count as qualifying PSLF payments."

I'm pretty sure Grad Plus counts as a "direct loan". If not, I would probably consolidate Stafford, Grad Plus, and Perkins into one before making payments, and then you could actually do IBR x 120 payments.

 

[deleted407083]

I believe that PLUS loans are actually eligible for the income-related loan repayment options (i.e., IBR, ICR) IF you consolidate them with a federal direct loan, and assuming the loan was made to the student and not a parent. Private loans definitely aren't eligible, though.

Although as has been mentioned before, by participating in those plans, you're of course having to hope that the programs stick around for the necessary 10-25 years. I personally don't know that I'd see them collapsing, but I could certainly see the terms changing, particularly if you aren't now already or soon will be "locked in" by having the payment agreement in place.

Beat me too it! Lol. I guess I posted a source

 

[CaliPsych]

I did ask a friend who was involved with the admissions process last year about the acceptance rate. She said it was around 17-18%. This sounds accurate to me. I remember on my interview day that other students were talking about the numbers, and someone said that the program gets almost 300 applications for 30 spots. I think they interview around 60 people, but that's just a rough guess based on my calculations on interview day. Anyway, I'm not indicating that these are "official" stats, this is just what I know based on my experience and talking to people who should know. I hope this is helpful.

With respect to internship, I have been hesitant to post names of specific sites because I am nervous about invading the privacy of students who have matched there. I will say that many of our students have matched at APA (not APPIC or CAPIC sites) in the bay area. A lot of those students have matched at college counseling sites, as well as some child-focused sites. As many of you know, the PAVA, SFVA, and Martinez VA tend not to take Psy.D.s for internship, and we have not had students match there. I know that several people have interviewed there.

I think that all of you are correct in noting that this program is a major financial commitment. I am certainly not trying to minimize that. I think any prospective student should sit down, think about the numbers, and figure out whether this (or even a Psy.D. program in general) is the right path for them. It's definitely not for everyone, but as I've said before many people in our program have found it manageable.

 

[JeyRo]

To CaliPsych: I would still like to see official acceptance rates, rather than numbers overheard from "a friend" or unofficially reported numbers found on a third-party site. Would think it would be something that could be found out officially - I'm sure PAU keeps those numbers somewhere. Same with the number of students who match to Bay Area or California APA sites. I actually know personally a PAU student who matched to the Palo Alto VA several years back (back when it was PGSP). He currently works as a real estate mogul, BTW.

Anyways, back to the financial stuff (e.g., the "manageability" issue regarding PAU debt levels), because I think it's the most troubling:

OK, with the stuff about PLUS loans clarified for me, let's assume you don't do private loans as a PAU student, or do parent PLUS loans, and let's assume you've consolidated under the Federal Direct Loan program, and let's also assume you've filed your taxes properly (reflecting the prior year as a single filer, as opposed to filing as a couple) - which clears the way for this hypothetical PAU grad to file for IBR using the 10% program. I went to the IBR calculator on ibrinfo.com and plugged in the following information:

Let's say this PAU grad lands a VA job (which some have done). I assumed 200K of debt (possibly very conservative for a PAU grad these days). I assumed 6.8 percent rate of interest (might be higher, don't know). I assumed a single filer. I assumed no children. Let's say this PAU grad lands a VA job (which some have done). I used the salary of a GS-13, step 1 employee as the gross salary (Bay Area pay tables). With that, I got a minimum monthly payment of 1,000 dollars for the IBR plan (!!!!), which sounds mind-boggling to me. I added in two children in the calculator, it only drops to 850 dollars per month (that's on a salary of 96,700 with two children at home, living in the Bay Area).

I cranked up the income assumption somewhat. Lets say you land a really lucrative position paying 150K in the Bay Area. Let's say this person says, "great, I now make 150K per year as a psychologist, now I can afford to have kids." Lets say you have those two children. Suddenly your monthly payments jump to 1520 per month (!!!!!!) Let's say you can't afford those two children even on that 150K per year salary and you give them up for adoption . Try 1620K per month. Wowzers.

Manageable?

 

[PHD12]

With respect to internship, I have been hesitant to post names of specific sites because I am nervous about invading the privacy of students who have matched there. I will say that many of our students have matched at APA (not APPIC or CAPIC sites) in the bay area. A lot of those students have matched at college counseling sites, as well as some child-focused sites. As many of you know, the PAVA, SFVA, and Martinez VA tend not to take Psy.D.s for internship, and we have not had students match there. I know that several people have interviewed there.

I think this is a good point related to future earnings and is consistent with what i've seen. Vast majority of students from PAU and other professional schools will not land VA spots or AMC positions. You can't move from an internship at a college counseling center to a VA job (from what i've seen). However, VA and AMC positions are by far the highest paying jobs for psychologists in the clinical field. The places where many of these students end up, college counseling centers and community mental health centers, pay the lowest salaries for psychologists (starting salaries of around 40-60K and don't usually ever get to 6 figure salaries). If your salary is 50K (2,800 per month after taxes) in the bay area and you are paying outrageous loans, how are you going to survive?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I did some quick and dirty math. I left out school fees, books, living expenses, etc. Tuition tends to go up every year or every few years at most/all universities, but for this calculation I used the same tuition rate for all four years to keep it simple. Here is about how much it will cost you if you borrow just the tuition at the currently posted rate of 6.8% from Sallie Mae + their 1% origination fee, which is required.

For my calculations I compounded the interest 1x/yr since that was the easiest way to do it. For the 5th year I assumed no money is borrowed to cover any tuition or costs during the intern year and no repayment started during the intern year. I believe PAU charges some sort of internship fee, but I didn't have that readily available, so add that in too. For the 6th year we can say the person consolidates and starts an income-based repayment.

The total cost for 4 years of tuition and 1 year of internship (all school fees & internship fees excluded): $201,340.87 Add in living expenses for CA and whatever else....that is easily $300k+ in loans.

*edit* I just noticed that I didn't use a formula for "totals" section at the bottom of the grid so it didn't update correctly. However, the 5th year principle+interest total should be correct (F5 in the grid), so I changed my total above.

 

[PHD12]

The total cost for 4 years of tuition and 1 year of internship (all school fees & internship fees excluded): $199,761.67 Add in living expenses for CA and whatever else....that is easily $300k+ in loans.

Nice job. Thanks for posting! My SUDS just shot up really high and I don't have any loans. I would imagine that rich parents are not willing to pay for this type of outrageousness. This is worse than what MD and JD students take out in loans.

 

[JeyRo]

Nice job. Thanks for posting! My SUDS just shot up really high and I don't have any loans. I would imagine that rich parents are not willing to pay for this type of outrageousness. This is worse than what MD and JD students take out in loans.

Right, but the rejoinder is "with the repayment plans now available, repayment becomes manageable" - this is referring to the Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan the gummit is offering (ibrinfo.com).

The idea is now that students don't have to worry about how big their principal gets at places like PAU - because repayments are capped at 10% of discretionary income (assuming all of your loans fall under IBR). So, if you have 150K of debt or 350K, you still pay the same under IBR, so why worry about it, right? See my post above.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Right, but the rejoinder is "with the repayment plans now available, repayment becomes manageable" - this is referring to the Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan the gummit is offering (ibrinfo.com).

The idea is now that students don't have to worry about how big their principal gets at places like PAU - because repayments are capped at 10% of discretionary income (assuming all of your loans fall under IBR). So, if you have 150K of debt or 350K, you still pay the same under IBR, so why worry about it, right? See my post above.

That does often seems to be the thinking with graduate loans in general, as I've seen it come up on the dental or pre-dental forums as well I believe. There's also income-contigent repayment (ICR), although I honestly don't know how that differs from IBR.

I mentioned it above, but I think it's worth noting again here that unless you go the public sector loan forgiveness route, once you hit the point of having the remainder of your loans under IBR written off, you may have to actually pay tax on the forgiven amount (as if it were income, I believe). So if you end up having, say, $30k or $50k in loans still remaining, that could be a not-insignificant chunk of change in taxes.

 

[CaliPsych]

Hi everyone,

I think that many people on this thread have brought up excellent points about the cost of this program. I don't agree with those of you who have characterized the cost as unmanageable for all students. I do agree with those of you who have said that this kind of financial commitment is not one to be taken lightly. I really encourage prospective students to think about the cost of getting a Psy.D. degree, and to think about how they will pay of their loans. I have said before that I feel that this is a truly personal decision, and I stand by that statement.

Speaking for myself, I decided to come to the Consortium instead of going to a funded program. I made that decision because I felt that the Consortium would better prepare me for the type of career I want. My classmates felt the same way, and that's why we made the choices we did. I totally respect that not everyone would or should make the same set of choices. I am simply trying to let prospective students know that it is POSSIBLE to make this work, and that many students have successfully done so.

For those of you on this thread who think such a decision is the wrong one, I just ask that you be respectful of those who have made (and will make) different choices than you. I appreciate the spirited discussion on this thread, because I do feel that SDN is a great place for prospective students to gather information. I have done my best to dispel misinformation on this thread, but I have also tried to honestly talk about the pros and cons of this program.

I feel like I keep repeating myself with respect to the internship/job discussion. I am not sure if perhaps I am misunderstanding the questions that people are raising, so please feel free to correct me if I'm not addressing your question. Students from our program obtain APA internships and jobs in a variety of settings, including VAs and academic medical centers. Just like any program, there is some variation among students with respect to career goals. Not everybody who attends the Consortium wants to be a professor or work at a VA, and those people often choose to pursue college counseling, community mental health, or even private practice. I honestly believe that students from our program tend to achieve the goals they set for themselves- those who want VA/AMC careers have them, and those who don't, don't. I feel like one of the great strengths of our program is that there are many opportunities to prepare yourself for a VA/AMC career, and that's why I say that students who have those goals generally reach them.

 

[CaliPsych]

I think this is a good point related to future earnings and is consistent with what i've seen. Vast majority of students from PAU and other professional schools will not land VA spots or AMC positions. You can't move from an internship at a college counseling center to a VA job (from what i've seen). However, VA and AMC positions are by far the highest paying jobs for psychologists in the clinical field. The places where many of these students end up, college counseling centers and community mental health centers, pay the lowest salaries for psychologists (starting salaries of around 40-60K and don't usually ever get to 6 figure salaries). If your salary is 50K (2,800 per month after taxes) in the bay area and you are paying outrageous loans, how are you going to survive?

I'm sorry but I'm genuinely puzzled about where this information is coming from. It is completely untrue that the "vast majority" of students from the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D. Consortium don't land AMC or VA positions. It may be true of professional schools in general (I honestly don't know), but this is a broad overgeneralization and it simply is not true.

 

[PHD12]

I'm sorry but I'm genuinely puzzled about where this information is coming from. It is completely untrue that the "vast majority" of students from the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D. Consortium don't land AMC or VA positions. It may be true of professional schools in general (I honestly don't know), but this is a broad overgeneralization and it simply is not true.

I was responding to your post. You mentioned that local VA hospitals will not take students from your program for internship. How many students from PGSP's PsyD program have staff psychologist jobs at the local VA hospitals? I know that many people go to this program because they want to stay in CA. The palo alto va, for example, only has 1 psychologist that went to this program on staff. I find this strange given the program is affiliated with the Palo Alto VA and PGSP's class size is large (30 graduate each year). Also, if the program has a good reputation, why won't the local VA hospitals take any students from there as you mentioned or rarely take any as staff psychologists? I am mentioning VA hospitals because they tend to pay the highest salaries if you want to do clinical work so i'm sure they are desirable for PGSP graduates. Again, I am not commenting on the quality or training of the program itself.

I also don't know how you can insist that the debt is very manageable when you haven't graduated from the program as of yet.

 

[CaliPsych]

I was responding to your post. You mentioned that local VA hospitals will not take students from your program for internship. How many students from PGSP's PsyD program have staff psychologist jobs at the local VA hospitals? I know that many people go to this program because they want to stay in CA. The palo alto va, for example, only has 1 psychologist that went to this program on staff. I find this strange given the program is affiliated with the Palo Alto VA and PGSP's class size is large (30 graduate each year). Also, if the program has a good reputation, why won't the local VA hospitals take any students from there as you mentioned or rarely take any as staff psychologists? I am mentioning VA hospitals because they tend to pay the highest salaries if you want to do clinical work so i'm sure they are desirable for PGSP graduates. Again, I am not commenting on the quality or training of the program itself.

I also don't know how you can insist that the debt is very manageable when you haven't graduated from the program as of yet.

I have already responded to these questions, and don't want to engage in a back and forth debate. My intention in posting on this thread was simply to provide a well-balanced view of the program and to correct factual inaccuracies. Despite my efforts to stick to the facts, you have continued to twist my words and to draw conclusions that are not accurate. I completely understand that you have a less than favorable view of the Consortium, and wouldn't choose to enroll here as a student. But you have repeatedly posted untrue statements which are meant to malign the program and to incite fear in students considering applying. I am happy to respond to questions that I have not yet answered, but I won't keep responding to the same comments.

 

[Pragma]

I have already responded to these questions, and don't want to engage in a back and forth debate. My intention in posting on this thread was simply to provide a well-balanced view of the program and to correct factual inaccuracies. Despite my efforts to stick to the facts, you have continued to twist my words and to draw conclusions that are not accurate. I completely understand that you have a less than favorable view of the Consortium, and wouldn't choose to enroll here as a student. But you have repeatedly posted untrue statements which are meant to malign the program and to incite fear in students considering applying. I am happy to respond to questions that I have not yet answered, but I won't keep responding to the same comments.

It is pretty hard to have an objective conversation when the program doesn't provide some of the data in question (e.g., admission rates) or when some is not available (e.g., proportion of students hired for CA internships and AMC jobs). Anecdotes aren't very helpful (on either side) and I would agree that PHD has a tendency to throw around sweeping statements that aren't always fair.

But I think we can mostly agree that your view of "manageable" debt is fairly skewed here. It is an extremely expensive program to have negative impressions floating around about it, and I am not sure how you can justify the $$ numbers unless you are financially supported by someone else. Those numbers don't lie.

 

[JeyRo]

It is pretty hard to have an objective conversation when the program doesn't provide some of the data in question (e.g., admission rates) or when some is not available (e.g., proportion of students hired for CA internships and AMC jobs). Anecdotes aren't very helpful (on either side) and I would agree that PHD has a tendency to throw around sweeping statements that aren't always fair.

But I think we can mostly agree that your view of "manageable" debt is fairly skewed here. It is an extremely expensive program to have negative impressions floating around about it, and I am not sure how you can justify the $$ numbers unless you are financially supported by someone else. Those numbers don't lie.

"Manageable" is a pretty darn subjective term with a lot of wiggle room associated with it. And it's very true that there's very little objective data we can get our hands on regarding PAU's PsyD program in terms of outcomes, aside from the data points already mentioned (EPPP scores, APA match rates, and tuition and fees, plus maybe a couple of other things).

We don't know the actual rate of people matching to Bay Area APA internships. Calipsych suggests (via anecdote) that PAU students match to Bay Area APA internships regularly, if not frequently, and PHD12 seems to doubt that, and I have no idea (in terms of my anecdotes I'm only aware of one PGSP student from about 10 years ago who matched to the VAPAHCS).

Again, from what we do know about PAU (focusing on its PsyD program, perhaps), while the APA match rate is decent relative to other FSPS programs (although mediocre at best compared to funded programs, and that may be a stretch), the cost is obviously astronomical and it strains credulity to refer to the expected debt levels as "manageable" for the average student based on objective information that's out there.

 

[Pragma]

Again, from what we do know about PAU (focusing on its PsyD program, perhaps), while the APA match rate is decent relative to other FSPS programs (although mediocre at best compared to funded programs, and that may be a stretch), the cost is obviously astronomical and it strains credulity to refer to the expected debt levels as "manageable" for the average student based on objective information that's out there.

Well said. But I am sure there is a small proportion of the population who can stomach 40k in tuition each year (plus cost of living) without it being too burdensome

My only other concern is that 30 people (let alone the higher numbers in other FSPS programs) is WAY too high for a cohort. I can't imagine how people get adequate training that way.

ETA: Back-of-envelope fun, 40k X 30 students in a cohort = $1.2 million per year, X 5 average cohorts = $6 million per year in tuition revenue from the Psy.D. program.

 

[PHD12]

We don't know the actual rate of people matching to Bay Area APA internships. Calipsych suggests (via anecdote) that PAU students match to Bay Area APA internships regularly, if not frequently, and PHD12 seems to doubt that, and I have no idea (in terms of my anecdotes I'm only aware of one PGSP student from about 10 years ago who matched to the VAPAHCS).

.

hey guys,

I am doubting that PAU PsyD students match to local VA internships overall and also get local staff psychologist positions there. You can look at the local VA hospitals staff listings and you will rarely see anyone from PAU's PsyD program despite it being a large program and affiliated with the VA. Again, I am sure that many students are well-trained coming from this program. I am saying that if people are hoping to get local VA jobs this doesn't seem like a typical path for a graduate of this program and that these are some of the higher paying jobs (this data is actually available if you want to look at the VA staff psychologists in the area)

 

[JeyRo]

Well said. But I am sure there is a small proportion of the population who can stomach 40k in tuition each year (plus cost of living) without it being too burdensome

My only other concern is that 30 people (let alone the higher numbers in other FSPS programs) is WAY too high for a cohort. I can't imagine how people get adequate training that way.

ETA: Back-of-envelope fun, 40k X 30 students in a cohort = $1.2 million per year, X 5 average cohorts = $6 million per year in tuition revenue from the Psy.D. program.

Schnikeys!

 

[Pragma]

Schnikeys!

Yes.

Not to derail the thread, but I do think there is a meaningful, psychological difference between getting funded to go to a program and paying to go to a program with the equivalent of your first-born child.

At least for me, all of that tuition I didn't pay certainly let me know that the program was invested in me and my outcomes, since they weren't seeing a penny from me. I do think that was a helpful feeling throughout training.

It's interesting - I just left a faculty meeting where they were talking about some other institutions that charge tuition for every semester a student doesn't complete their dissertation. Now, while there are certainly good reasons for this (e.g., maintain student status and access to resources, institutional liability for research, etc), the person indicated that the main thing was to motivate students to get done before they had to pay more. For me (as someone who did not pay for these credits), I was motivated to get done in a timely way but also didn't feel pressured to rush the project so that I didn't have to cut another check. I can't imagine that feeling.

 

[PHD12]

Nice. Maybe I will start a PsyD program. Forget the VA job.

 

[Pragma]

Nice. Maybe I will start a PsyD program. Forget the VA job.

and FWIW, all of the numbers I used were directly from the program website, so unless my math was wrong, I don't think we can argue about that.

 

[deleted407083]

Interesting information regarding the PhD program on Wikipedia:
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal...ds like a good review and small cohort to me.