For VHA employees only - rare Psychology Service Chief opportunity at Palo Alto VA

[FredBerfil]

This not a public posting per se (e.g., not available to non-VA candidates). But I wanted to alert any and all psychologists here currently at the VA who have supervisory experience. Note - this is a position that can be done virtually:

Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System

Detail-Chief of Psychology​

TITLE and GRADE:

GS-0180-15, Senior Psychologist (Chief, Psychology Service, Supervisory)



Mental Health Service at VA Palo Alto Health Care System is currently seeking interested employee(s) to apply for a detail/temporary promotion not to exceed 120 days.



DUTIES TO BE PERFORMED:

• Oversight and management of the Psychology Service of approximately 78 staff members who work in over 30 clinical programs within our Mental Health, Rehabilitation, and Medical Services that operate within VAPAHC’s 3 main campuses and 8 of our CBOCs
• Recruitment, hiring, retention and on-going supervision and clinical privileging of psychologists for clinical programs within the Mental Health, Medical, Extended Care, and Polytrauma Care Lines
• Overseeing the specific clinical programs and associated staff that are administered by Psychology Service;
• Overseeing the extensive pre- and postdoctoral training programs and continuing education program for psychologists
• Overseeing the various health care system support services provided by the Psychology Service (including but not limited to the Employee Assistance Program, Psychiatric Conservatorship Evaluations, and VA Police Psychological evaluations)
• Supporting MH performance measures, SAIL metrics and other goals as determined by Facility Executive Leadership
• Participates in MH Leadership meetings and huddles
• Maintains communication with MH Leadership and VISN
• Completes and responds to suspenses, PATS notifications and JPSRs for executive office review
• Supports ongoing project development and quality improvement projects
• Other duties as assigned

QUALIFICATIONS: Eligible individuals must have held:

• GS-14 (psychology) position for at least 1 year and/or have specialized experience for consideration.

TOUR OF DUTY: The tour of duty will be 8:00am to 4:30pm, Monday-Friday. Assigned hours are subject to change based on the needs of the service; assigned days off are not anticipated to change during the detail. This is eligible as a virtual assignment.



DOCUMENTS TO SUBMIT:

• CV
• Supervisor Approval (attached to this email)

APPLICATION: If interested, please submit the noted documents to Dr. Steven Lindley, Deputy Chief of Staff ([email protected]). Initial application review will begin Wednesday, May 18th.



If more than one employee meets the criteria for consideration after review, interviews will be conducted and the temporary promotion will be awarded based on qualifications and interview.

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[Sanman]

Thanks for the post. GS-15 money in CA to manage 78 people sounds like a terrible quality of life deal personally.

 

[JeyRo]

Thanks for the post. GS-15 money in CA to manage 78 people sounds like a terrible quality of life deal personally.

Only masochists need apply

 

[Sanman]

Only masochists need apply

So, did you already complete your application?

 

[JeyRo]

So, did you already complete your application?

 

[cara susanna]

Haha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this and was like, yeaaah, no. ESPECIALLY with the cost of living in that area.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, not sure I can swing a pay cut with a pretty big increase in CoL.

 

[FredBerfil]

Haha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this and was like, yeaaah, no. ESPECIALLY with the cost of living in that area.

This is actually a position that can be done virtually! You do not have to move to the Bay Area (and you can still collect the GS-15 pay).

 

[Sanman]

Haha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this and was like, yeaaah, no. ESPECIALLY with the cost of living in that area.

I was curious and took a look at USA Jobs. There are about a half dozen positions posted currently and a few I know have not been posted yet. Even with the virtual nature of the job, I know several folks that make more than any gs-15 and manage A LOT less people than that in the private sector. I feel like it is a tough sell generally. With this job market it is getting tougher filling government positions.

 

[Ollie123]

Definitely not competitive with what you can get in the private sector, but for someone working remotely outside the bay area that wouldn't be a terrible salary. Not saying its worth the hassles, but 160k isn't bad for W-2 income in this field (esp. factoring in federal benefits).

For giggles, I used a cost of living calculator to determine my breakeven point for a move to San Francisco. Apparently I would need to find an assistant prof gig that paid about 340k/year to maintain my current standard of living.

 

[erg923]

its a temp position

 

[smalltownpsych]

Definitely not competitive with what you can get in the private sector, but for someone working remotely outside the bay area that wouldn't be a terrible salary. Not saying its worth the hassles, but 160k isn't bad for W-2 income in this field (esp. factoring in federal benefits).

For giggles, I used a cost of living calculator to determine my breakeven point for a move to San Francisco. Apparently I would need to find an assistant prof gig that paid about 340k/year to maintain my current standard of living.

So this is 160k w/ benefits and that is not a good pay for psychologists? Either I'm a little confused or our compensation has gone up quickly in the last few years.

 

[WisNeuro]

So this is 160k w/ benefits and that is not a good pay for psychologists? Either I'm a little confused or our compensation has gone up quickly in the last few years.

160k medium sized metro in the Midwest vs 160k in the Bay Area is a different story. Pay cut for more hours for me either way. It is virtual, so there is that, though the temporary nature makes it a hard sell.

 

[JeyRo]

Apparently I would need to find an assistant prof gig that paid about 340k/year to maintain my current standard of living.

 

[summerbabe]

Surely there is somebody internal (probably both masochistic and has come to hate clinical work) that's been chomping at the bit for this gig to pop up, no?

From my interactions with GS14s and 15s, our core work values and what we are looking for from a job are so absurdly not-aligned.

 

[smalltownpsych]

160k medium sized metro in the Midwest vs 160k in the Bay Area is a different story. Pay cut for more hours for me either way. It is virtual, so there is that, though the temporary nature makes it a hard sell.

I am sure that you are rocking it and doing a good job of stretching the curve, but everything I see with a quick search online makes 160k look like it is above the median. According to BLS, which for the median is probably skewed by school psychologists, nevertheless they report 133k as the top 10%. Any of you have better stats or info to use?

 

[PsychPhDone]

I imagine if someone did move they would get the special salary rate for psychologists in the bay area, though I'm not sure what it would be at gs15 and I'm not sure it makes sense to move for a detail.

Hopefully someone internal gets it.

 

[bcliff]

sweet salary survey,

I am sure that you are rocking it and doing a good job of stretching the curve, but everything I see with a quick search online makes 160k look like it is above the median. According to BLS, which for the median is probably skewed by school psychologists, nevertheless they report 133k as the top 10%. Any of you have better stats or info to use?

For Neuropsychology:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13854046.2020.1849803

$167k was the median mean salary for 132 respondents in practice for 11-15 years (see Table 7). Seems like those would be the folks most competitive for this GS-15 position.

ETA: I misread. Median salary for those 132 respondents was actually $146k. Median was $170k for folks in practice 21-25 years.

 

[WisNeuro]

I am sure that you are rocking it and doing a good job of stretching the curve, but everything I see with a quick search online makes 160k look like it is above the median. According to BLS, which for the median is probably skewed by school psychologists, nevertheless they report 133k as the top 10%. Any of you have better stats or info to use?

For psychologists in general, that's definitely higher than the median. For neuropsychologists in PP that's around the median for mid-career.

@mxbz posted at the same time I did, and yes, AACNs salary survey.

 

[Sanman]

So this is 160k w/ benefits and that is not a good pay for psychologists? Either I'm a little confused or our compensation has gone up quickly in the last few years.

A little bit of apples and oranges in my opinion. Is it good pay for a psychologist? Yes. However, when you are managing 78 people you are no longer a psychologist, you are in healthcare management. They are asking you to manage ~10-15 million in annual review for 160k. My wife does this stuff on the corporate side and I did as well in a clinical setting for a few years. You make significantly more than $160k for managing that kind of revenue.

 

[JeyRo]

A little bit of apples and oranges in my opinion. Is it good pay for a psychologist? Yes. However, when you are managing 78 people you are no longer a psychologist, you are in healthcare management. They are asking you to manage ~10-15 million in annual review for 160k. My wife does this stuff on the corporate side and I did as well in a clinical setting for a few years. You make significantly more than $160k for managing that kind of revenue.

You know, I didn't originally think about this as a limited-duration detail though - with this job, for only 120 days of masochism, self-abuse, and mediocre pay, you can put on your CV some pretty good management experience.

Could get the right applicant a pretty nice leg up for the truly well-paying and ideal healthcare management job down the line.....

 

[Sanman]

You know, I didn't originally think about this as a limited-duration detail though - with this job, for only 120 days of masochism, self-abuse, and mediocre pay, you can put on your CV some pretty good management experience.

Could get the right applicant a pretty nice leg up for the truly well-paying and ideal healthcare management job down the line.....

It could be a good foot in the door for a person on the healthcare management track that wants to move up. You will need a lot more than 120 days of experience though. I wonder if one can return to their previous gig afterward or if you are taking a big risk leaving a permanent position. There a few Suicide Prevention program manager jobs listed on USA jobs as well that were virtual , but they are limited term appointments with the option for additional terms. Not sure if it is worth leaving a permanent service position for something like that.

 

[Ollie123]

So this is 160k w/ benefits and that is not a good pay for psychologists? Either I'm a little confused or our compensation has gone up quickly in the last few years.

Think you might have misunderstood me. I just meant its not a great salary for the bay area. For perspective, ran the same cost of living calculator in reverse. That salary would be like getting paid < $70,000 in my current region. For a very high-level administrative position you'd be making what would be extremely mediocre for an entry-level position around here.

Its definitely not bad pay overall for psychologists, its just not great for someone at <that> level, especially when you factor in the location.

I fully agree that for a temp position it may not be a bad career move for some people looking to climb the ladder. Great line for the CV, that's for sure.

JeyRo - Flattered, but taken. However, I suspect you would be less interested if you saw my actual salary. Its cheap here. The conversion factor to San Francisco dollars is....ridiculous.

 

[cara susanna]

There's no way I'd want to be 100% virtual or remote for an administrative position like that. I feel like you'd want someone "on the ground."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You know, I didn't originally think about this as a limited-duration detail though - with this job, for only 120 days of masochism, self-abuse, and mediocre pay, you can put on your CV some pretty good management experience.

Could get the right applicant a pretty nice leg up for the truly well-paying and ideal healthcare management job down the line.....

As someone who has looked at these type of jobs when I was in tech...I'd ask for at least double if it is for a short-term contract, otherwise it's not worth the hassle.

 

[psycle708]

For Neuropsychology:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13854046.2020.1849803

For the non-neuro crowd, is there an equivalent for other specialities or for general psych? I can't find anything as comprehensive or recent for the rest of the field.

 

[bluecolourskies]

A little bit of apples and oranges in my opinion. Is it good pay for a psychologist? Yes. However, when you are managing 78 people you are no longer a psychologist, you are in healthcare management. They are asking you to manage ~10-15 million in annual review for 160k. My wife does this stuff on the corporate side and I did as well in a clinical setting for a few years. You make significantly more than $160k for managing that kind of revenue.

Thank you for explaining this! because I was also like “wow I have never imagined making this type of money” but I am very early career.

 

[PsychPhDone]

It could be a good foot in the door for a person on the healthcare management track that wants to move up. You will need a lot more than 120 days of experience though. I wonder if one can return to their previous gig afterward or if you are taking a big risk leaving a permanent position. There a few Suicide Prevention program manager jobs listed on USA jobs as well that were virtual , but they are limited term appointments with the option for additional terms. Not sure if it is worth leaving a permanent service position for something like that.

Usually your supervisor approves a detail and then you return to your old position at the end. Pretty common.

 

[Sanman]

Thank you for explaining this! because I was also like “wow I have never imagined making this type of money” but I am very early career.

Honestly, $160k is the tip of a very large iceberg when you get into business or managing large health systems. Sky is the limit. However, much like being a subject matter expert in forensic work, it is a different set of skills than being a clinician. I spent more of my management life worrying about insurance reimbursement issues, staffing problems, and proper documentation than I did any clinical issues. In comparison, my current gig has been a vacation.

 

[erg923]

Usually your supervisor approves a detail and then you return to your old position at the end. Pretty common.

Can you say more about this?

At the G2-14 level, in the VHA as I know it (which was 5-6 years ago now admittedly), your GS-15 or Medical Center Director boss just saying: "Sure, go ahead and do another job full-time for 4-6 months and come back where you left off...we will be fine here" seems....odd? Similar things happen in the military (official TDY assignments are usually a year or more though), I know. But the VHA certainly does NOT function like the military, and I don't know how they could be set up for something like this without having an utter cascade of other temp positions to fill the void? And so on. And...this is common you say?

Another question I have is how to build any kind of relationship with supervisees within just 4 months from start to end? And, without being there and knowing the medical center, its culture, and its leadership first-hand. Unless this person is known to be coming in as some kind of cutthroat change-agent or reconstructing agent, I'm not sure how any of their direct reports would be expected to adjust, know, respect, or obey this new "virtual" supervisor of only 4 months? For example, if this had happen to me when I was there, I probably would have largely ignored any significant change or demand. My Service Chief (at the time) and I might have been somewhat frenemies, but at least I knew what I could do and what I (we) could do and apologize/beg for forgiveness for later, right???

I also agree with others, in that managing 78 doctoral-level providers "temporarily" and tens of millions of dollars in government resources and associated monopoly monies certainly justifies an incentive bonus in addition to the existing base salary.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Can you say more about this?

At the G2-14 level, in the VHA as I know it (which was 5-6 years ago now admittedly), your GS-15 or Medical Center Director boss just saying: "Sure, go ahead and do another job full-time for 4-6 months and come back where you left off...we will be fine here" seems....odd? Similar things happen in the military (official TDY assignments are usually a year or more though), I know. But the VHA certainly does NOT function like the military, and I don't know how they could be set up for something like this without having an utter cascade of other temp positions to fill the void? And so on. And...this is common you say?

Another question I have is how to build any kind of relationship with supervisees within just 4 months from start to end? And, without being there and knowing the medical center, its culture, and its leadership first-hand. Unless this person is known to be coming in as some kind of cutthroat change-agent or reconstructing agent, I'm not sure how any of their direct reports would be expected to adjust, know, respect, or obey this new "virtual" supervisor of only 4 months? For example, if this had happen to me when I was there, I probably would have largely ignored any significant change or demand. My Service Chief (at the time) and I might have been somewhat frenemies, but at least I knew what I could do and what I (we) could do and apologize/beg for forgiveness for later, right???

I also agree with others, in that managing 78 doctoral-level providers "temporarily" and tens of millions of dollars in government resources and associated monopoly monies certainly justifies an incentive bonus in addition to the existing base salary.

My understanding, in a nutshell, is that's almost exactly how it actually works. Your supervisor approves the temporary detail and then likely finds someone to (temporarily) replace you while you're gone, such as the deputy of your position. Then you return to business as usual afterward.

I don't know honestly how much of a relationship they expect you to build with supervisees, which I think sometimes might be the point. In my experience when they would bring people in, it was either because no one at the facility actually wanted the position or they wanted to bring in someone from the outside (e.g., because they wanted a fresh perspective and/or to address persisting problems). But that might've been unique to my facility.

I don't know if it's common, but it's not uncommon. I heard of multiple such opportunities in my time at VA.