OC/LA Groups (Sanitized Version)

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For sure, change would be good. That's the nice thing about being at rock bottom: you've got no place to go but up.

But where's the change? Reinstalling the old chief? Young, inexperienced surgeons flogging Medicaid patients with the da Vinci just to get their numbers up? A rotating cavalcade of fresh graduates (nurses, techs, and surgeons) testing their wings until they get called up into the big leagues? (And, make no mistake, the new graduates are the good ones. Even worse are the lazy and incompetent staff that are never invited to the big leagues, and end up as lifers.) Asking Allied to save things? And, after they run away screaming, bring in some scabs from Florida?? That is what you are touting as "the best deal in Orange County??"

Two high-volume (Medicaid-heavy) GI rooms keep the hospital afloat, with three other operating rooms running, once of which is the da Vinci slaughterhouse? That leaves you with one decent room (ortho), and one average room (general surgery). The chief takes the ortho room, his next-in-line takes the general room, and the newbies get GI and da Vinci. Fine, you say, high volume GI can be a good day for unit production. Trouble is, half of the GI cases are conscious sedation cases...so you are sitting on your thumbs generating neither units nor revenue. And, if it's GI you want (and I'm open-minded enough to allow that somebody somewhere wants to do those cases), why on earth would you want to do it at a hospital that is going to require you to take call? And, rather frequent call, at that??

Listen, I understand the folks who are giving Placentia Linda the benefit of the doubt. Tiny hospital in a decent part of town with neither OB nor trauma. What's not to like? Plenty, apparently, if the hospital's decade-long inability to recruit and retain anesthesiologists is any indication.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe adding another couple of levels of middle management and non-clinical expertise from the East coast is what they've been lacking all along. If somehow Envision is the answer, of course, it means that things were even worse than we imagined.

Few issues there
1. Same surgeons as St Jude down the road so no difference there
2. Payor is irrelevant to the anesthesiologist
3. Schedule is fair and equitable and simply rotated based on call positions
4. Call is pretty mild there as you said
5. No partnership BS, fair and equitable pay to everyone - neither of which Allied can deliver

Not sure when you were there but the system now is much different than when Allied was there

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Rooms aren't closing but the management changes are recent so it always takes time to stabilize after a big change. It won't take long to recruit at $37 per unit in OC


Fountain Valley just made it official: They are closing the entire Outpatient Surgical Center.

Maybe that's in the anesthesiologists' best interests; maybe the rooms will all be scheduled efficiently now. Maybe the surgeons won't be mad and take their good cases elsewhere. Maybe.

Maybe Envision gets all the credit. Maybe.
 

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Fountain Valley just made it official: They are closing the entire Outpatient Surgical Center.

Maybe that's in the anesthesiologists' best interests; maybe the rooms will all be scheduled efficiently now. Maybe the surgeons won't be mad and take their good cases elsewhere. Maybe.

Maybe Envision gets all the credit. Maybe.

Surgery centers open and close all the time for a variety of reasons. Generally speaking, Anesthesiologists are rarely shareholders (unless pain med) and they don't bring cases or cost the asc money in staffing costs (at least in California) so they generally aren't a factor in the financial situation for a typical asc.

Generally it comes down to operating costs, OR revenue, and the opportunity cost of using resources to keep it open. None of which involve anesthesiologists (although we are pretty good at improving efficiency if we are consulted in the operations)
 
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USCGhost, an Envision anesthesiologist for 7+ years, surely is privy to more insider information than I am. So, when s/he quotes chapter and verse, you should believe him (or her). But speaking in "generalizations" is not quoting chapter and verse.

Fountain Valley had two anesthesia groups on its campus. One served the hospital. The other served the OSC. When Envision took over the contract for all Tenet Hospitals, Envision kept the hospital group. The outpatient group wanted nothing at all to do with the hospital group or Envision. In September or October, Fountain Valley announced that they would be closing two of the four outpatient center operating rooms effective November 1 (the day Envision took over).

So, yeah, nobody asked shareholding anesthesiologists should they shutter a facility. That is true. But what appears equally obvious is that Envision's inability to staff four outpatient operating rooms caused administration to close two rooms immediately. (And, again, this probably was--by sheer luck and coincidence--good for the anesthesiologists. If the same number of OSC cases are now going to be done in half the rooms, those rooms should be good, efficient rooms.) But, not even four weeks into Envision's reign, Fountain Valley is now closing a 4-OR surgical center altogether.

Of course, there could be a host of other reasons--and undoubtedly those USCGhost elucidated were among them. But until somebody on the inside of the hospital group proves otherwise, it is a very reasonable and safe assumption to believe that Envision couldn't recruit enough warm bodies to staff an inefficient hospital and an inefficient surgical center--even at $37/unit (which is generally believed to be greatly in excess of the blended unit value for Fountain Valley). Now that they are the monopoly power in anesthesia staffing (which wasn't the case when there were two dueling anesthesia groups), Envision was able to unilaterally tell management they had to schedule their operating rooms efficiently.

From an anesthesiologist's perspective, this is an unalloyed good. No question. And, if--as I am speculating--Envision is to thank for the decision (tough decision, but the right decision), they get all the credit. All of it.

But surgeons are going to be pissed and they'll be taking their cases elsewhere. And good OSC staff is not going to be happy to join the call-taking staff of a struggling hospital on the bottom rung--so there's going to be an exodus of good staff.

Sure, that's not Envision's fault. And that doesn't make an otherwise good job necessarily bad.

But, the notion that Envision can't recruit at $37/unit, the notion that a group already privileged at the hospital and familiar with its surgeons would decide to walk away from Envision's $37/unit guarantee, and the fact that the hospital IS CLOSING ROOMS (and, in fact, entire centers), leads me to believe that, contrary to what USCGhost maintains, Envision's offer is not the best Orange County has to offer.

But, to reiterate, USCGhost is the only one of the two of us speaking with "insider insight."
 
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USCGhost, an Envision anesthesiologist for 7+ years, surely is privy to more insider information than I am. So, when s/he quotes chapter and verse, you should believe him (or her). But speaking in "generalizations" is not quoting chapter and verse.

Fountain Valley had two anesthesia groups on its campus. One served the hospital. The other served the OSC. When Envision took over the contract for all Tenet Hospitals, Envision kept the hospital group. The outpatient group wanted nothing at all to do with the hospital group or Envision. In September or October, Fountain Valley announced that they would be closing two of the four outpatient center operating rooms effective November 1 (the day Envision took over).

So, yeah, nobody asked shareholding anesthesiologists should they shutter a facility. That is true. But what appears equally obvious is that Envision's inability to staff four outpatient operating rooms caused administration to close two rooms immediately. (And, again, this probably was--by sheer luck and coincidence--good for the anesthesiologists. If the same number of OSC cases are now going to be done in half the rooms, those rooms should be good, efficient rooms.) But, not even four weeks into Envision's reign, Fountain Valley is now closing a 4-OR surgical center altogether.

Of course, there could be a host of other reasons--and undoubtedly those USCGhost elucidated were among them. But until somebody on the inside of the hospital group proves otherwise, it is a very reasonable and safe assumption to believe that Envision couldn't recruit enough warm bodies to staff an inefficient hospital and an inefficient surgical center--even at $37/unit (which is generally believed to be greatly in excess of the blended unit value for Fountain Valley). Now that they are the monopoly power in anesthesia staffing (which wasn't the case when there were two dueling anesthesia groups), Envision was able to unilaterally tell management they had to schedule their operating rooms efficiently.

From an anesthesiologist's perspective, this is an unalloyed good. No question. And, if--as I am speculating--Envision is to thank for the decision (tough decision, but the right decision), they get all the credit. All of it.

But surgeons are going to be pissed and they'll be taking their cases elsewhere. And good OSC staff is not going to be happy to join the call-taking staff of a struggling hospital on the bottom rung--so there's going to be an exodus of good staff.

Sure, that's not Envision's fault. And that doesn't make an otherwise good job necessarily bad.

But, the notion that Envision can't recruit at $37/unit, the notion that a group already privileged at the hospital and familiar with its surgeons would decide to walk away from Envision's $37/unit guarantee, and the fact that the hospital IS CLOSING ROOMS (and, in fact, entire centers), leads me to believe that, contrary to what USCGhost maintains, Envision's offer is not the best Orange County has to offer.

But, to reiterate, USCGhost is the only one of the two of us speaking with "insider insight."

Why would it be a "safe assumption" that the anesthesiologists wouldn't sign on to group that was offering a significant raise while maintaining the same work lifestyle? Who says that they didn't end up signing on? Generally speaking, when a group takes over a contract, the people only leave if they are offered less pay or they were taking advantage of the system under the prior contract and a new system doesn't allow it. I find it hard to believe that the avg worker bee anesthesiologist would leave when someone comes in offering them better pay to stay at the site they were already at. Makes no sense.

If the group that was staffing it didn't sign on, which I don't know if they did or didnt, maybe they were ASC only guys who don't want to take call as part of the hospital group. Fair enough. Many guys are willing to take pay cuts to live the ASC life..but that doesn't make Envisions offer bad or good..its just not what they want. In lifestyle.

If the ASC was staffed by a completely separate group, as you said, then there would be no reason that this group wouldn't continue to staff it after the take over. Or in a scenario where a new group comes in and can't staff it..then they simply close rooms for awhile until they staff up. Certainly the solution isn't to just close up permanently. Plenty of ASCs struggle with anesthesia coverage around OC..they just move cases around or compress or use locums

I certainly don't know all the facts..but I have been around long enough to be aware of how the transitions occur at many hospitals and why they do. I would encourage you to apply and interview and find out yourself how good or bad the situation is. Who knows..you might find it's better than your current spot or maybe it reaffirms that you have a good gig.

We all need to focus more on the business aspect of things as physicians. Hospitals, insurance companies aren't loyal to us..only to the almighty dollar. We should be glad if groups are offering more money as it raises the floor for us all.
 
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What do you think average unit value in LA is? When I was in the Bay Area it was $38. I think it's probably the same or lower.
 
What do you think average unit value in LA is? When I was in the Bay Area it was $38. I think it's probably the same or lower.


Median commercial unit in Ca is now ~$80, mean is ~$100. That is a significant increase from 5-6 years ago when the median was about $60. Of course average unit depends on percentage of commercial vs Medicare/Medical. Also a lot of MediCal HMO’s pay decently now.


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Median commercial unit in Ca is now ~$80, mean is ~$100. That is a significant increase from 5-6 years ago when the median was about $60. Of course average unit depends on percentage of commercial vs Medicare/Medical. Also a lot of MediCal HMO’s pay decently now.


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Actually this is the latest. Median and mean are both about $100/unit.

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37 is above the avg rates in OC. Allied is 32-36, doesn't pay for blocks and has no call stipend.

Envisions pays for all three plus no partnership BS.

Nothing better in OC currently.

There’s much better in OC than just Allied and Envision.

Which groups? The only one I know of in OC that might be better than 37 is hoag...and that group is far from fair in terms of call, partnership, etc. Also most groups don't pay for regional in order to artificially subsidize the main unit value.

If you include call stipends, Envision would be over 42-43 plus they pay full asa value for nerve blocks.

All the good and fair groups will have some sort of buy in. These buy ins are more a formality with little financial gain for the current partners, as opposed to the ones where senior partners continually profit from the new hires (see the Santa Monica job).

Hopefully this continues to drive units up

Unit values don’t just magically get driven up because a company like Envision takes over a contract. The money comes from somewhere, and barring a significant change in the payor mix, I would be highly skeptical of the long term viability of such a group. It’s a zero sum game at the end of day.
 
There’s much better in OC than just Allied and Envision.



All the good and fair groups will have some sort of buy in. These buy ins are more a formality with little financial gain for the current partners, as opposed to the ones where senior partners continually profit from the new hires (see the Santa Monica job).



Unit values don’t just magically get driven up because a company like Envision takes over a contract. The money comes from somewhere, and barring a significant change in the payor mix, I would be highly skeptical of the long term viability of such a group. It’s a zero sum game at the end of day.

I'd be curious as to where those groups are and how they are better? I am aware of a couple groups that may be "better", but then it comes down to the details and I don't know enough about those groups to definitively say one way or another (unit rates, what procedures they pay for, call stipends, equality in schedule, call volume, buy in, w2 vs 1099, etc). Since this is a thread about the specifics regarding groups in OC, it would be worthwhile to expand on these groups if anyone has details.

Buy-ins are used for the advantage of the group at the expense of the new hire. The new hire isn't buying into any tangible assets. There is no office equipment, real estate, etc. Its simply a way to artificially inflate the unit value for the partners (as you said, money comes from somewhere), and make people feel trapped once they make partner (don't want to leave for a potentially better job and lose their buy-in). There is no "need" for one to operate a group effectively. If the buy-in is to pay for access to the stability of the groups contract with insurance companies or hospitals, then these days, that's largely worthless too. With the new OON billing laws, insurance companies will target the high unit value contracts (see North Carolina) and hospitals will drop groups in a heart beat if a better offer comes along.
 
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I'd be curious as to where those groups are and how they are better? I am aware of a couple groups that may be "better", but then it comes down to the details and I don't know enough about those groups to definitively say one way or another (unit rates, what procedures they pay for, call stipends, equality in schedule, call volume, buy in, w2 vs 1099, etc).

The groups are located in the areas with a more favorable payor mix. Think affluent cities and suburbs with lots of young working families who have private insurance. These groups generally have unit values > $45 and are quite fair in terms scheduling, access to cases, vacation and benefits. They are also very involved with their hospital administrations to provide long term stability and work to optimize OR throughput, so the hours you work aren’t horrible. There are buy ins with almost all of them.

Buy-ins are used for the advantage of the group at the expense of the new hire. The new hire isn't buying into any tangible assets. There is no office equipment, real estate, etc. Its simply a way to artificially inflate the unit value for the partners (as you said, money comes from somewhere), and make people feel trapped once they make partner (don't want to leave for a potentially better job and lose their buy-in).

I disagree, not all buy ins are used to inflate partner salaries.

For instance, let’s imagine you join a group of 25 partners and your buy in is 25%. If you make $450k per year, then your buy in amount would be $112,500 per year. So each partner would get $4,500 per year from your buy in. That’s $375 per month… basically a rounding error when all is said and done. If they decide to take your buy in amount to inflate the unit value, it wouldn’t go up by more than 25-50 cents depending on how busy they are. In this group, the buy in would be more a formality to show your commitment to the group rather than profit from you as a new hire. And once you are partner, you would basically get the buy in back from future new hires.
 
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The groups are located in the areas with a more favorable payor mix. Think affluent cities and suburbs with lots of young working families who have private insurance. These groups generally have unit values > $45 and are quite fair in terms scheduling, access to cases, vacation and benefits. They are also very involved with their hospital administrations to provide long term stability and work to optimize OR throughput, so the hours you work aren’t horrible. There are buy ins with almost all of For instance, let’s imagine you join a group of 25 partners and your buy in is 25%. If you make $450k per year, then your buy in amount would be $112,500 per year. So each partner would get $4,500 per year from your buy in. That’s $375 per month… basically a rounding error when all is said and done. If they decide to take your buy in amount to inflate the unit value, it wouldn’t go up by more than 25-50 cents depending on how busy they are. In this group, the buy in would be more a formality to show your commitment to the group rather than profit from you as a new hire. And once you are partner, you would basically get the buy in back from future new hires.
To think about it a different way, since you’re stating the buy in is a “rounding error”, why have one at all then? Why not just have it be a year trial period followed by a yes-or-no vote? Or why not put that money in escrow and give half (or all) of it back to the employee if someone doesn’t become a partner?

There are some well known overtly exploitative groups in socal that use the concept of buy in in a sketchy way. And a few that are more fair with a much less onerous buy in and call setup.
 
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The groups are located in the areas with a more favorable payor mix. Think affluent cities and suburbs with lots of young working families who have private insurance. These groups generally have unit values > $45 and are quite fair in terms scheduling, access to cases, vacation and benefits. They are also very involved with their hospital administrations to provide long term stability and work to optimize OR throughput, so the hours you work aren’t horrible. There are buy ins with almost all of them.



I disagree, not all buy ins are used to inflate partner salaries.

For instance, let’s imagine you join a group of 25 partners and your buy in is 25%. If you make $450k per year, then your buy in amount would be $112,500 per year. So each partner would get $4,500 per year from your buy in. That’s $375 per month… basically a rounding error when all is said and done. If they decide to take your buy in amount to inflate the unit value, it wouldn’t go up by more than 25-50 cents depending on how busy they are. In this group, the buy in would be more a formality to show your commitment to the group rather than profit from you as a new hire. And once you are partner, you would basically get the buy in back from future new hires.

Yea, those are the characteristics of a generic good group..but doesn't give details on where that group exists.

Using your example..it would take 25 years to get you buy in back..so essentially you would never get it back. That sound fair to a new hire?

Given the average person could get 10% return on that money instead..sounds pretty terrible to me.

The more common example..its a 2-4 year buy-in..costing 50-100k per year. And you have many people in that buy-in period feeding revenue to the top guys. Then a proportion of those new hires never make it to partner and the cycle continue.

If your group is 25 people..you can assume about 10% turnover per year (retirements, etc). If you have a 3 year buy in at 75k per year, then you have 7.5 people each year still in their buy in period x 75k each. That's 562k in revenue going to the partners. About 22,500k per partner.

And that's assuming everyone makes partner (certainly do not).

It would take you about 10 years to get your money back. And if the group loses the contract or break up..you are SOL.

The only reasons that buy-ins still exist
 
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Sorry, my post was cut off.

The only reason that buy-ins still exist is because they have become, in effect, a ponzi scheme. They are using new investor (new hire) money to pay existing investors (partners). So the existing folks have an incentive to maintain the system, and hence the predatory model continues. Is that what should be considered a "good group"? I hardly think so.

What ends up happening, is that the group develops into tiers.

Tier 1 - base of the pyramid - new hires contributing their buy ins and hoping to reach the magic land of partnership. They take extra call and work harder to make up for the big buy in.
Tier 2 - new partners who are finally making even pay. They still have to work for another 10 years to make their money back. A proportion of Tier one never makes it to tier 2.
Tier 3 - smaller proportion of old guys who gladly pay some of that revenue back to the Tier 1 guys to take all their call. Their skills have started to trend down but they are partner now so not much the group can do about it. And generally since the group power structure is run by these guys, the young guys cant do anything about it anyways.

So what ends up happening, is the new guys get screwed into having to take more call for less pay, and they have to invest their money into a partnership that can go up in smoke at anytime if the hospital contract changes.

OR

You can select a group where everyone is paid equally for equal work.
 
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I’m generally against buy ins but if a group has a high enough unit value and productivity, their new hires can make as much or more than “partners” at a lesser practice. For example, if an AMC is paying $37/unit to everyone while a private practice offers $36/unit to new hires with a bump up to $45+/unit as partner, I’d pick option 2. And the better groups in OC have very low turnover. They don’t churn.
 
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Tier 1 - base of the pyramid - new hires contributing their buy ins and hoping to reach the magic land of partnership. They take extra call and work harder to make up for the big buy in.
I am sure there are crappy places that do it this way but all the groups in my area I am familiar with (including mine) are nothing like this.

You do the time and are an employee for a set amount of time. You work the same as the rest of us and make partner unless something is wrong with you.
 
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I am sure there are crappy places that do it this way but all the groups in my area I am familiar with (including mine) are nothing like this.

You do the time and are an employee for a set amount of time. You work the same as the rest of us and make partner unless something is wrong with you.

How long is the partnership track? Why have one at all? What's the buy in?
 
Buy in to show commitment to the group… You know kind of like buying your girl a big rock to show her you love her. Because both this job and your marriage are until death do you part.
 
Buy in to show commitment to the group… You know kind of like buying your girl a big rock to show her you love her. Because both this job and your marriage are until death do you part.

Certainly there are other ways to show commitment other than paying $100,000 or more of my income towards a non-existent asset. Working hard, being reliable, going the extra mile are all ways to show commitment. It's just a ponzi scheme. The only reason to continue it is so that the senior guys can make their money back from their own forced buy ins.

Its a little bit of a game of hot potato...at some point the people in the middle of their buy-in periods or still trying to make the money back from their buy in will get hosed when the group loses its contract with the hospital or their payor mix changes, or another one of those medicare cuts hit us like it will in 2022. Question is, who will it be?!
 
Certainly there are other ways to show commitment other than paying $100,000 or more of my income towards a non-existent asset. Working hard, being reliable, going the extra mile are all ways to show commitment. It's just a ponzi scheme. The only reason to continue it is so that the senior guys can make their money back from their own forced buy ins.

Its a little bit of a game of hot potato...at some point the people in the middle of their buy-in periods or still trying to make the money back from their buy in will get hosed when the group loses its contract with the hospital or their payor mix changes, or another one of those medicare cuts hit us like it will in 2022. Question is, who will it be?!
One way you could look at it is that a reasonable buy-in is repayment for the money the group fronted you at the beginning of your new employment, meaning, you did work and billed for units, but nearly zero dollars of that money has been collected.

Do you want to work the first few months with little to no income because you have to wait for insurance companies and patients to pay you for your work?

Or the group gives you a paycheck from the start, at a slightly modified rate, since they're fronting you money while the billers wait months for the money to come in from the work you did.

That money has to come from somewhere.
 
One way you could look at it is that a reasonable buy-in is repayment for the money the group fronted you at the beginning of your new employment, meaning, you did work and billed for units, but nearly zero dollars of that money has been collected.

Do you want to work the first few months with little to no income because you have to wait for insurance companies and patients to pay you for your work?

Or the group gives you a paycheck from the start, at a slightly modified rate, since they're fronting you money while the billers wait months for the money to come in from the work you did.

That money has to come from somewhere.
Most groups I've seen won't front you money. You don't get paid anything for awhile till your billables start coming in. At least, that's what I've seen... kind of the worst of all worlds.
 
One way you could look at it is that a reasonable buy-in is repayment for the money the group fronted you at the beginning of your new employment, meaning, you did work and billed for units, but nearly zero dollars of that money has been collected.

Do you want to work the first few months with little to no income because you have to wait for insurance companies and patients to pay you for your work?

Or the group gives you a paycheck from the start, at a slightly modified rate, since they're fronting you money while the billers wait months for the money to come in from the work you did.

That money has to come from somewhere.

Ah that's an interesting thought.

However, in most scenarios, while the new hire is paid two months after starting (despite no revenue collected on their cases), they will also stop being paid two months after leaving (while their cases continue to get paid. So its a net zero.

If they are replacing someone, then the revenue from the person leaving will fund the new person. So it won't change current pay for everyone else.

The only scenario where it's a potential issue, is if the hiring of new people coincides with new business (increased case volume from a new surg center). Then the group us fronting the revenue..but its generally not a huge amount if the group pays two months in arrears.

There is a bit of value in that though. It take about 1 year to reach a steady state, so you could create a system that mathematically normalizes that first year, but it wouldn't require the substantial buy in that many groups charge.
 
Certainly there are other ways to show commitment other than paying $100,000 or more of my income towards a non-existent asset. Working hard, being reliable, going the extra mile are all ways to show commitment. It's just a ponzi scheme. The only reason to continue it is so that the senior guys can make their money back from their own forced buy ins.

Its a little bit of a game of hot potato...at some point the people in the middle of their buy-in periods or still trying to make the money back from their buy in will get hosed when the group loses its contract with the hospital or their payor mix changes, or another one of those medicare cuts hit us like it will in 2022. Question is, who will it be?!
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I agree with your position.
 
Sorry, my post was cut off.

The only reason that buy-ins still exist is because they have become, in effect, a ponzi scheme. They are using new investor (new hire) money to pay existing investors (partners). So the existing folks have an incentive to maintain the system, and hence the predatory model continues. Is that what should be considered a "good group"? I hardly think so.

What ends up happening, is that the group develops into tiers.

Tier 1 - base of the pyramid - new hires contributing their buy ins and hoping to reach the magic land of partnership. They take extra call and work harder to make up for the big buy in.
Tier 2 - new partners who are finally making even pay. They still have to work for another 10 years to make their money back. A proportion of Tier one never makes it to tier 2.
Tier 3 - smaller proportion of old guys who gladly pay some of that revenue back to the Tier 1 guys to take all their call. Their skills have started to trend down but they are partner now so not much the group can do about it. And generally since the group power structure is run by these guys, the young guys cant do anything about it anyways.

So what ends up happening, is the new guys get screwed into having to take more call for less pay, and they have to invest their money into a partnership that can go up in smoke at anytime if the hospital contract changes.

OR

You can select a group where everyone is paid equally for equal work.

We can debate the merits and predatory nature of buy ins all day, but that's tangential to what I was trying to discuss with regards to the good groups in OC. Buy ins come in many shapes and sizes, and some suck more than others, but they aren't all uniformly in place to benefit the partners. As someone new joining a group, who are you or I to feel so entitled to anything on day one? If you were a partner having gone through the buy in, would you be willing to just scrap it for new hires or would you just tell them everyone before them has gone through it?

But getting back to the point I was trying to make originally, there will be a buy in of some sort at any of the best groups in OC. So in the end your "best" options are:

A - an average unit value (in the 30s), maybe has a buy in or not, at a hospital or group that has been a revolving door for the better part of two decades

B - a very high unit value (over 45), but with a buy in where where you'll make about the same as option A for a few years and then significantly more for the rest of your career, at a group with very little turnover and long term stability with their hospitals

Give me option B any day. The only caveat is that anyone can sign up for option A, but you'll need connections or pure luck for option B. At least in OC.
 
Most groups I've seen won't front you money. You don't get paid anything for awhile till your billables start coming in. At least, that's what I've seen... kind of the worst of all worlds.

Most have a draw agreement where you get between 10-20k month, which is then repaid from billables.
 
We can debate the merits and predatory nature of buy ins all day, but that's tangential to what I was trying to discuss with regards to the good groups in OC. Buy ins come in many shapes and sizes, and some suck more than others, but they aren't all uniformly in place to benefit the partners. As someone new joining a group, who are you or I to feel so entitled to anything on day one? If you were a partner having gone through the buy in, would you be willing to just scrap it for new hires or would you just tell them everyone before them has gone through it?

But getting back to the point I was trying to make originally, there will be a buy in of some sort at any of the best groups in OC. So in the end your "best" options are:

A - an average unit value (in the 30s), maybe has a buy in or not, at a hospital or group that has been a revolving door for the better part of two decades

B - a very high unit value (over 45), but with a buy in where where you'll make about the same as option A for a few years and then significantly more for the rest of your career, at a group with very little turnover and long term stability with their hospitals

Give me option B any day. The only caveat is that anyone can sign up for option A, but you'll need connections or pure luck for option B. At least in OC.

Yes, it's difficult to debate the value of any system without knowing the details.

For this thread, it would be good to know the compensation details for these "good groups". It's easy to inflate a unit value to sound good...but the devil is in the details on how they get to that number.
 
Certainly there are other ways to show commitment other than paying $100,000 or more of my income towards a non-existent asset. Working hard, being reliable, going the extra mile are all ways to show commitment. It's just a ponzi scheme. The only reason to continue it is so that the senior guys can make their money back from their own forced buy ins.

Its a little bit of a game of hot potato...at some point the people in the middle of their buy-in periods or still trying to make the money back from their buy in will get hosed when the group loses its contract with the hospital or their payor mix changes, or another one of those medicare cuts hit us like it will in 2022. Question is, who will it be?!
I do see what you're saying in this thread but I think there are some nuances.

Everyone in a group should take, or at least be assigned, some equal amount of call, no matter whether you're new guy or have been there 20 years. If you're a big enough group, the people who despise call should be able to give it up and if that's not possible, the group needs to figure a way to "make call better" or "make it worth it" to take extra call ($$$, days off, etc)

The financial part is trickier. For smaller groups (who are the groups we're really talking about here), taking away a buy-in is essentially asking the partners to make less money, which could be the answer, but there are going to be some people who will throw a fit at that lifestyle change. Some groups just take all the revenue and divide it equally whether you're day 1 or day 1,000,000. There are pros and cons to that as well.

The most financially/workload group will always be the most attractive, but there will almost always be something that doesn't add up and someone will be getting the short end of the stick. You just have to be ok with that based on whatever your goal is. If a group is good and the work is good/fair-ish and the job doesn't make me claw my eyes out, I wouldn't mind a buy-in for a job that makes me happy in a place that makes me happy.
 
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Most groups I've seen won't front you money. You don't get paid anything for awhile till your billables start coming in. At least, that's what I've seen... kind of the worst of all worlds.
Most have some sort of way of holding you over. Back in the Obama-years when my group with still indy they floated me a loan to hold me over and basically when my billing started to come in they took a portion out over a certain amount of time. This is the case for most "eat what you kill groups".

The best piece of advice in this thread is to stash away about six months worth of something close to you're monthly income so this isn't much of a worry if you need to switch jobs. Then again, I was also personally advised if you switch, go to a large group or academics so this isn't an issue.
 
Yes, it's difficult to debate the value of any system without knowing the details.

For this thread, it would be good to know the compensation details for these "good groups". It's easy to inflate a unit value to sound good...but the devil is in the details on how they get to that number.

It's not my place to discuss the financials of other groups. If you want to know more, you should reach out to them and ask for the details when interviewing.

But in the end, the compensation details and how they get to whatever unit value shouldn't matter if they're fair in terms of scheduling/call and distribution of finances. You'll do better overall at these places than anywhere else in Orange County.
 
Most have some sort of way of holding you over. Back in the Obama-years when my group with still indy they floated me a loan to hold me over and basically when my billing started to come in they took a portion out over a certain amount of time. This is the case for most "eat what you kill groups".

The best piece of advice in this thread is to stash away about six months worth of something close to you're monthly income so this isn't much of a worry if you need to switch jobs. Then again, I was also personally advised if you switch, go to a large group or academics so this isn't an issue.

Very true.
It's not my place to discuss the financials of other groups. If you want to know more, you should reach out to them and ask for the details when interviewing.

But in the end, the compensation details and how they get to whatever unit value shouldn't matter if they're fair in terms of scheduling/call and distribution of finances. You'll do better overall at these places than anywhere else in Orange County.

My only point is that it's hard to judge why a group is better than any other group if we don't know their location, unit rate, call stipend or buy-in or equality. So if you say there are many groups better than allied or Envision, then it would be worthwhile to know details regarding these groups to truly evaluate
 
It's been a while now. Does anyone have any update about groups in LA and OC areas?

It’s a pretty hot market right now, it seems everyone is hiring. The groups are pretty much the same in terms of reputation and structure. I have heard through the grapevine that a couple groups may be changing their partnership track length and/or buy-in to remain competitive.
 
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It’s a pretty hot market right now, it seems everyone is hiring. The groups are pretty much the same in terms of reputation and structure. I have heard through the grapevine that a couple groups may be changing their partnership track length and/or buy-in to remain competitive.

Any detail? Which groups are you referring to? I appreciate more detail.
 
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It's been a while now. Does anyone have any update about groups in LA and OC areas?
my buddy in SD said people left his group to go to cedars because they are paying 2x what kaiser is. I think base kaiser starting is ~300k (including signing bonuses) for 40 hours a week. Is cedars actually paying $600k starting?
 
my buddy in SD said people left his group to go to cedars because they are paying 2x what kaiser is. I think base kaiser starting is ~300k (including signing bonuses) for 40 hours a week. Is cedars actually paying $600k starting?


They had a gaswork ad a few months ago offering 550-600k for a liver transplant anesthesiologist. It didn’t specify hours.

About 7-8 yrs ago, they were offering $200/hr to their newly graduated ACTA fellows. It was a different market then so I assume the pay has increased.
 
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They had a gaswork ad a few months ago offering 550-600k for a liver transplant anesthesiologist. It didn’t specify hours.

About 7-8 yrs ago, they were offering $200/hr to their newly graduated ACTA fellows. It was a different market then so I assume the pay has increased.

From what i heard one is doing some pain, some anesthesia with no nights/weekends for $500k+ thats just hearsay though. Pretty sweet gig if you ask me but LA is a dump I don't want to live there.
 
I looked into both Cedars and Kaiser last year.

Cedars is indeed paying $550k plus benefits but you'll have to work hard for it. I don't have much more information than that since it was only a short phone call with their HR department and I didn't feel it was worthwhile to go any further knowing I wasn't likely to relocate and raise a family in West Hollywood/LA.

Kaiser is a highly overrated job in my opinion (at least SCPMG, can't speak to Northern California group). They quoted me a base pay of $142.50 per hour, or $296k annually for 40 hours/week (5 of those hours are "administrative" and the rest clinical). Now you obviously make more with a differential multiplier to your base rate when working evenings, weekends, and overnight calls. But you need to work at least 50 hours per week and take 3-4 overnight in-house calls per month to get up to a decent income. The benefits are frequently cited as being great, but even those I found to be mediocre. You only start with 3.5 weeks vacation and need to work your way up to 5.5 weeks after like 10 years. You're stuck with Kaiser for health insurance, which is a negative in my book. The pension plan may seem nice at first but even that isn't as great as it's made out to be because a) you need to work full-time until you're at least 58 years old, b) your pension amount is only calculated from your base pay, and c) part of it is paid out as a lump sum when you turn 65 with a six figure tax bill stapled to it. This isn't even taking into consideration that you'll have to deal with the politics of supervising CRNAs and being a cog in the giant corporate wheel. I can understand the appeal for some, but it's just not for me.
 
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I looked into both Cedars and Kaiser last year.

Cedars is indeed paying $550k plus benefits but you'll have to work hard for it. I don't have much more information than that since it was only a short phone call with their HR department and I didn't feel it was worthwhile to go any further knowing I wasn't likely to relocate and raise a family in West Hollywood/LA.

anyone seriously considering the Cedars job should be the type that actually reads the terms and conditions before blinding clicking “I agree” on every website.

When you have two academic institutions with a ~200k pay differential within 10 miles of each other, rest assured there’s a reason.
 
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anyone seriously considering the Cedars job should be the type that actually reads the terms and conditions before blinding clicking “I agree” on every website.

When you have two academic institutions with a ~200k pay differential within 10 miles of each other, rest assured there’s a reason.
So what’s the catch?
 
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I looked into both Cedars and Kaiser last year.

Cedars is indeed paying $550k plus benefits but you'll have to work hard for it. I don't have much more information than that since it was only a short phone call with their HR department and I didn't feel it was worthwhile to go any further knowing I wasn't likely to relocate and raise a family in West Hollywood/LA.

Kaiser is a highly overrated job in my opinion (at least SCPMG, can't speak to Northern California group). They quoted me a base pay of $142.50 per hour, or $296k annually for 40 hours/week (5 of those hours are "administrative" and the rest clinical). Now you obviously make more with a differential multiplier to your base rate when working evenings, weekends, and overnight calls. But you need to work at least 50 hours per week and take 3-4 overnight in-house calls per month to get up to a decent income. The benefits are frequently cited as being great, but even those I found to be mediocre. You only start with 3.5 weeks vacation and need to work your way up to 5.5 weeks after like 10 years. You're stuck with Kaiser for health insurance, which is a negative in my book. The pension plan may seem nice at first but even that isn't as great as it's made out to be because a) you need to work full-time until you're at least 58 years old, b) your pension amount is only calculated from your base pay, and c) part of it is paid out as a lump sum when you turn 65 with a six figure tax bill stapled to it. This isn't even taking into consideration that you'll have to deal with the politics of supervising CRNAs and being a cog in the giant corporate wheel. I can understand the appeal for some, but it's just not for me.
I think kaiser suits those who don't want to handle the potential complex nature of setting up a 1099, cash
So what’s the catch?

Usually ****ty hours, terrible cases (ie liver transplants at 1am), lots of call, etc.

Cedars anesthesia imploded and cedars basically employs them now. Good payor mix too but when the c suite has other plans, anesthesia groups don't survive long
 
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I think kaiser suits those who don't want to handle the potential complex nature of setting up a 1099, cash


Usually ****ty hours, terrible cases (ie liver transplants at 1am), lots of call, etc.

Cedars anesthesia imploded and cedars basically employs them now. Good payor mix too but when the c suite has other plans, anesthesia groups don't survive long

That sounds not fun
 
So what’s the catch?
425-550 with 4-5 weeks pto depending on years from training. This includes 72 calls a year.

Heard through the grapevine that since crna program is not off the ground quite yet and with relatively low-ish number of house staff, you are often sending residents home on call.
 
425-550 with 4-5 weeks pto depending on years from training. This includes 72 calls a year.

Heard through the grapevine that since crna program is not off the ground quite yet and with relatively low-ish number of house staff, you are often sending residents home on call.
yeaaa no thanks
 
425-550 with 4-5 weeks pto depending on years from training. This includes 72 calls a year.

Heard through the grapevine that since crna program is not off the ground quite yet and with relatively low-ish number of house staff, you are often sending residents home on call.
That really is about the same work/call burden as other academic programs in the area, with far more pay...
 
I had a call with Cedars. Call burden was very high with many late nights. “Q3 in house.” Moving to supervision. 550+ was for liver call. Not sure about generalists.
 
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