Hinsdale IL? And other near Chicago groups?

[NightyNight]

Long time since being on here but thought maybe someone can provide honest answers.

Any opinions on the trajectory of the group located in Hinsdale, Illinois?

All I know is that Northstar or some other AMC failed like 5-6 years ago and some of the old group is back in. Sort of worrisome that the hospital already tried this with the group and could do it again to them.

And is their lifestyle (not compensation) good for someone looking to live in the West Loop? I’ll take less for less calls whether in house or beeper.

Opinion on any other groups close to Chicago?

Can DM me if don’t wanna openly discuss. Thanks a bunch.

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[coffeebythelake]

Long time since being on here but thought maybe someone can provide honest answers.

Any opinions on the trajectory of the group located in Hinsdale, Illinois?

All I know is that Northstar or some other AMC failed like 5-6 years ago and some of the old group is back in. Sort of worrisome that the hospital already tried this with the group and could do it again to them.

And is their lifestyle (not compensation) good for someone looking to live in the West Loop? I’ll take less for less calls whether in house or beeper.

Opinion on any other groups close to Chicago?

Can DM me if don’t wanna openly discuss. Thanks a bunch.

Lots of places in chicago are trying to take their anesthesia in-house. Many of them are failing spectacularly requiring locums to fill the gap.

 

[NightyNight]

Yup. that’s what I heard about both Sherman and Lutheran. They are not getting people to go W-2 and even if they find people , the new hires end up with bad call frequency. I don’t know much about the AMCs but they have a lot of vacancies too on gas work. Plus, there is a lot of unsafe non supervision.

So new graduates should be aware of false promises from some of these places. I met a young new grad a while ago and he was burned by his first job and quit after just 1 year. Don’t be more of a commodity than you already are in todays wild market.

 

[nimbus]

Makes sense that a hospital staffed by high priced locums would not be able to get full time staff to sign up at a lower cost. Why would anybody sign up to be paid less than the guy working in the room next door?

 

[NightyNight]

Yeah. I think a soon to be grad that doesn’t have roots in Chicago should seek elsewhere until the W2 pay matches how much call and other stuff you are on the hook for compared to locums. It’s just burning out the new folks to be on a perpetual resident schedule. Some of you have pointed out some sweet life balancing gigs in other major cities.

Living in or near Chicago ain’t worth it right now unless family is tying you down.

 

[ProwlerturnGas]

How much are locums getting?

 

[NightyNight]

Between 350 to 400/hr for 10hr shifts! Some even higher. That’s just crazy if you’re without a family and need like basic health insurance which is cheap on the marketplace.

 

[NightyNight]

Some new information from a former resident. Everyone should avoid Aurora, IL. The current CRNAs and docs are going to jump ship like every place before.

Deathstar is coming in and the call is Q4! Worst part is cross coverage of the OR at night with a busy OB and probably no post call day off. Stretching docs to eventual OB disaster. Risking your license for an AMC seems foolish even if they offer a “good” package.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Some new information from a former resident. Everyone should avoid Aurora, IL. The current CRNAs and docs are going to jump ship like every place before.

Deathstar is coming in and the call is Q4! Worst part is cross coverage of the OR at night with a busy OB and probably no post call day off. Stretching docs to eventual OB disaster. Risking your license for an AMC seems foolish even if they offer a “good” package.

U talking rush copley??

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Between 350 to 400/hr for 10hr shifts! Some even higher. That’s just crazy if you’re without a family and need like basic health insurance which is cheap on the marketplace.

Damn I’m getting paid $300 for 8 hour shifts in Central PA. It’s chill work though but garbage EMR/hospital. Should I ask for more ?

 

[coffeebythelake]

Damn I’m getting paid $300 for 8 hour shifts in Central PA. It’s chill work though but garbage EMR/hospital. Should I ask for more ?

U willing and able to do shifts in Illinois? That's your bargaining chip I guess..

One of the places I'm working getting 375/hr x10 hours, chill cases mostly solo, not PP speed because teaching program for surgical fellows. plus rental car. Easy peasy cases compared to my former life as w2 at big academic place

 

[NightyNight]

375-400/hr. Any less from a recruiter is bad. Before handing over a CV, find out if the recruiter is a second middleman. Places with busy OBs and late ORs should always be on the higher end especially in Chicago area.

 

[Pharmado]

375-400/hr. Any less from a recruiter is bad. Before handing over a CV, find out if the recruiter is a second middleman. Places with busy OBs and late ORs should always be on the higher end especially in Chicago area.

What do you mean by second middleman?

 

[NightyNight]

What do you mean by second middleman?

Agencies that work the main agency. Sort of like contracting out the search. More people taking a cut in the middle so less pay for the provider.

 

[NightyNight]

Some new info for those looking out there. Another Advocate site in NW suburb may go down in next few weeks unless there is a sudden turn around. Guess Advocate won’t learn.

Wonder if they planned out a long game for all this nonsense. It’s like new graduates must leave Chicago and find a stable W2 or deal with locum stints in the area. Odd times.

 

[narcotics999]

Some new info for those looking out there. Another Advocate site in NW suburb may go down in next few weeks unless there is a sudden turn around. Guess Advocate won’t learn.

Wonder if they planned out a long game for all this nonsense. It’s like new graduates must leave Chicago and find a stable W2 or deal with locum stints in the area. Odd times.

If new graduates have to leave, less anesthesiologists in the Chicagoland. What kind of long game?

 

[NightyNight]

If new graduates have to leave, less anesthesiologists in the Chicagoland. What kind of long game?

Agree. I don’t know what all these hospitals are thinking. Are they trying to accelerate independent CRNAs in Illinois? This is all just so odd versus just supporting the existing docs at a site. But then I’m not an administrator who only looks at a couple years at a time ruining people’s stability.

 

[GassYous]

I heard chicago is paying top dollar for locums

 

[narcotics999]

Agree. I don’t know what all these hospitals are thinking. Are they trying to accelerate independent CRNAs in Illinois? This is all just so odd versus just supporting the existing docs at a site. But then I’m not an administrator who only looks at a couple years at a time ruining people’s stability.

I think their long game is hospital employment. My current locum place the private group is renegotiating with the hospital. Hospital wants to employ them. But playing in-house employment or out is not working right now.

 

[ambiturner]

I think their long game is hospital employment. My current locum place the private group is renegotiating with the hospital. Hospital wants to employ them. But playing in-house employment or out is not working right now.

You are most likely correct. The methods are different in each health system, and the timeline of change, but the goal is the same. They have very deep pockets and can weather a few extra million for anesthesia indefinitely.

 

[circleK]

Advocate has plenty of $$$$. This is a recurring theme at their hospitals, so it seems like a long term plan of employment. And they have more hospitals in the area to go.

 

[dabears505]

Some new info for those looking out there. Another Advocate site in NW suburb may go down in next few weeks unless there is a sudden turn around. Guess Advocate won’t learn.

Wonder if they planned out a long game for all this nonsense. It’s like new graduates must leave Chicago and find a stable W2 or deal with locum stints in the area. Odd times.

By go down you mean employed or national group like napa coming in?

 

[NightyNight]

By go down you mean employed or national group like napa coming in?

Most Advocates trying to move to employment. I don’t know any trying to go AMC. But their problem will always be not hiring enough people with a good income for a ton of calls. Sherman and Lutheran still probably struggling for years.

The new docs probably care more about lifestyle than getting killed with a lot of call and so far only 1099 offers that kind of freedom. I think full time anesthesia jobs should be 60-80% of the work done now. No one is looking back at working every 3 weekends and missing out on family and friends. If there are more docs in a group, then weekend call could be a reasonable Q6-8. I hope the younger ones reshape this work warrior culture. Europe is far ahead.

 

[ambiturner]

Most Advocates trying to move to employment. I don’t know any trying to go AMC. But their problem will always be not hiring enough people with a good income for a ton of calls. Sherman and Lutheran still probably struggling for years.

The new docs probably care more about lifestyle than getting killed with a lot of call and so far only 1099 offers that kind of freedom. I think full time anesthesia jobs should be 60-80% of the work done now. No one is looking back at working every 3 weekends and missing out on family and friends. If there are more docs in a group, then weekend call could be a reasonable Q6-8. I hope the younger ones reshape this work warrior culture. Europe is far ahead.

Another sinister thought - if you completely blow up the group, thereby creating a massive locums need, you also can poach stable anesthesiologists for locums from the private groups at your other local hospitals that you eventually want to employ. This then destabilizes the other groups and pushes them to eventually implode and become employed. That brings us to the ??? step before the profit step, and I have no idea what you do to stop the cycle but I guess advocate thinks they do.

 

[nimbus]

Another sinister thought - if you completely blow up the group, thereby creating a massive locums need, you also can poach stable anesthesiologists for locums from the private groups at your other local hospitals that you eventually want to employ. This then destabilizes the other groups and pushes them to eventually implode and become employed. That brings us to the ??? step before the profit step, and I have no idea what you do to stop the cycle but I guess advocate thinks they do.

This happened with travel nurses. Our hospital system saw what was happening and stopped hiring locals as “travel nurses”.

 

[NightyNight]

Another sinister thought - if you completely blow up the group, thereby creating a massive locums need, you also can poach stable anesthesiologists for locums from the private groups at your other local hospitals that you eventually want to employ. This then destabilizes the other groups and pushes them to eventually implode and become employed. That brings us to the ??? step before the profit step, and I have no idea what you do to stop the cycle but I guess advocate thinks they do.

The only solution for long term employment is that all docs ask for 40 hour or below (including backup calls) positions while still demanding a salary that equals at least 300/hr 1099.

They need to replace their former staff with at least 20% more docs to make the call system manageable. If you are doing more than 4 calls per month, then it just drains everybody.

It’s all sinister so is the anesthesia collective going to be smart about it when it comes time for employed jobs after the 1099 run ends?

And what do you mean by the profit step? I assume that happens if docs sign up for crappy conditions rather than walk away.

 

[ambiturner]

Yeah I guess my question is, if hospital megacorp’s current options are 1) pay tons for locums or 2) pay 90%ile+ for w2 with lots of call, and no one is taking option 2, what market change needs to occur for them to reach the end goal of fully staffing at 50-75%ile w2 pay employees without locums? Only conceivable changes would be a huge influx of new grads, either CRNA or MD, taking these jobs, which is plausible given how many training programs for both are in Chicago, an economic downturn resulting in reduced retirements or people wanting to work more, or something like nimbus said where local locums docs are not considered.

 

[Pharmado]

Yeah I guess my question is, if hospital megacorp’s current options are 1) pay tons for locums or 2) pay 90%ile+ for w2 with lots of call, and no one is taking option 2, what market change needs to occur for them to reach the end goal of fully staffing at 50-75%ile w2 pay employees without locums? Only conceivable changes would be a huge influx of new grads, either CRNA or MD, taking these jobs, which is plausible given how many training programs for both are in Chicago, an economic downturn resulting in reduced retirements or people wanting to work more, or something like nimbus said where local locums docs are not considered.

With the amount of money they are paying for locums it would be far better short and long term to offer a 75th percentile wage and a large sign on bonus to get people in the door. If
1 locum FTE is costing in the neighborhood of 1M, offering a salary of 650k + 250k sign on for a 3 year commitment AND fully staffing to keep hours reasonable would stabilize things in a reasonable amount of time and be a net positive or at least neutral in the first year.

 

[NightyNight]

Yeah I guess my question is, if hospital megacorp’s current options are 1) pay tons for locums or 2) pay 90%ile+ for w2 with lots of call, and no one is taking option 2, what market change needs to occur for them to reach the end goal of fully staffing at 50-75%ile w2 pay employees without locums? Only conceivable changes would be a huge influx of new grads, either CRNA or MD, taking these jobs, which is plausible given how many training programs for both are in Chicago, an economic downturn resulting in reduced retirements or people wanting to work more, or something like nimbus said where local locums docs are not considered.

If it’s going to be 75th percentile, then the call frequency can’t be greater than Q6-7 whether primary or second.

Also new CRNAs are not going to take call so it’s up to new grads to be smart and not buy into Chicago W2 jobs unless they guarantee a reasonable call schedule. Setup life outside of Chicago for a bit. Will all the docs push for a change into lifestyle 4 days weekly versus trying to make the most dollars?

Someone close to retirement should probably make their hay as 1099 and just leave this mess. That’s assuming they have saved up 5 mil or more. Better to reduce life expense than deal with being beaten for the last years of your working life. You gonna miss the free time looking back. Not the money.

 

[narcotics999]

One thing I heard from Chicago w2 market: malpractice insurance is often claim-based. When you leave, you are asked to cover the tail, 60k.

I was employed in other states before but always occurrence based.

Just be careful in case you sign up with w2.

 

[coffeebythelake]

One thing I heard from Chicago w2 market: malpractice insurance is often claim-based. When you leave, you are asked to cover the tail, 60k.

I was employed in other states before but always occurrence based.

Just be careful in case you sign up with w2.

Most academic places cover tail.

 

[narcotics999]

Most academic places cover tail.

What about Northshore, Aurora, and Ascension?

 

[coffeebythelake]

What about Northshore, Aurora, and Ascension?

Not 100% sure. I'm assuming that Northshore / Endeavor and Advocate covers tail. All these places have pulled their groups in house.

 

[NightyNight]

Hospital system employment should cover the tail. However these hospital jobs are disastrous for lifestyle currently.

I heard from a locums yesterday that they are making all the W2s at non private locations mentioned before do a couple per week. That’s because the locums don’t want to do them. 8 calls monthly! Insane to my health. What kind of pay would even justify that kind of torture?

 

[dabears505]

Very good point about tail. It can trap you

 

[ambiturner]

With the amount of money they are paying for locums it would be far better short and long term to offer a 75th percentile wage and a large sign on bonus to get people in the door. If
1 locum FTE is costing in the neighborhood of 1M, offering a salary of 650k + 250k sign on for a 3 year commitment AND fully staffing to keep hours reasonable would stabilize things in a reasonable amount of time and be a net positive or at least neutral in the first year.

That’s pretty close to what these places are offering…and they’re still not getting a lot of bites.

 

[makemoney2024]

Very good point about tail. It can trap you

$60k trap someone in a miserable job? In our field?

 

[makemoney2024]

Hospital system employment should cover the tail. However these hospital jobs are disastrous for lifestyle currently.

I heard from a locums yesterday that they are making all the W2s at non private locations mentioned before do a couple per week. That’s because the locums don’t want to do them. 8 calls monthly! Insane to my health. What kind of pay would even justify that kind of torture?

People will leave. Place I am at right now only has 4 FT instead of 8. And one more is leaving and another is talking about it. People are having it

 

[NightyNight]

$60k trap someone in a miserable job? In our field?

If you start a claims made insurance job, you should always look at the schedule for tail amounts. Save at least 10k post tax in a savings account so the hit is not that bad when it happens

 

[GassYous]

Any stable, healthy private practice groups in the Chicago area hiring full time? I'd be interested in becoming a long term partner with a good group if I can find one.

That's the dream

 

[narcotics999]

Any stable, healthy private practice groups in the Chicago area hiring full time? I'd be interested in becoming a long term partner with a good group if I can find one.

There is none although the recruiting group will say it is.

Not bad to know the reality. Nothing worse than you join a group, work hard for 2 years with less $$ and vacations, and are told in the end that the group will be employed.

 

[dabears505]

Please do yourself a favor and join an employed position. Private practice is not really viable without a large stipend in Illinois.

 

[Pharmado]

Please do yourself a favor and join an employed position. Private practice is not really viable without a large stipend in Illinois.

Not sure about the current situation, but I worked at a hospital on the border of Indiana and Illinois. Since there wasn’t a close hospital in Illinois our hospital had a contract to accept Illinois Medicaid/Medicare. Except the state of Illinois was 18+ months behind on paying. Government payers don’t cover the cost of doing business and then to add insult to injury they don’t pay you for more then a year…it’s difficult for any private group to survive in that environment.

 

[dabears505]

Do people want to be hospital employed, amc employed or private practice partnership track?

 

[NightyNight]

Really nothing is safe right now for a provider. But I will say AMC is the worst of 3.

Your next job is 2-3 years. Medicine is like tech now. Suffer and try to make money until the next move. 1099 to float around 6 places. Sad a physician can’t build a relationship with a community anymore.

 

[narcotics999]

That’s pretty close to what these places are offering…and they’re still not getting a lot of bites.

Because once you bite, you will be hooked up for a long time. Locums do not take calls, the employed picks them up. Late case, the employed does it. You become a slave (well, a paid slave)

 

[Woody890]

There is none although the recruiting group will say it is.

Not bad to know the reality. Nothing worse than you join a group, work hard for 2 years with less $$ and vacations, and are told in the end that the group will be employed.

What about dupage valley?

 

[coffeebythelake]

What about dupage valley?

They are going to be on the chopping block. Too juicy of a target. Edward-elmhurst.. thr latter already knocked down

 

[ambiturner]

What about dupage valley?

As has been alluded to in this thread, and as a wise friend explained to me during a recent search, you can’t worry about the bad things that will inevitably happen to a group/medicine/hospital system. What matters is what your options are when it does - do you have an awful noncompete? Huge tail to pay? Sunk buyin costs? If the job doesn’t have any of those anchors, then take it you like it and you can always find a new one if the situation changes. It’s difficult to predict the future so just make sure you aren’t limiting options.

 

[NightyNight]

They are going to be on the chopping block. Too juicy of a target. Edward-elmhurst.. thr latter already knocked down

Will the deal be good enough to retain them all? Will Endeavor overlords improve the QoL for existing docs in anyway? Dupage Valley had seemingly a lot of attrition due to their work hours.