Maybe we should go to Med school?

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MountainPharmD

MountainPharmD

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32829974/ns/health-health_care

As part of his health care overhaul, Obama has stressed the need to "elevate the profile of family care physicians and nurses as opposed to just the specialists who are typically going to make more money."
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Maybe we should all go to Med school. I have a better idea. How about our worthless national organizations get in there and insert Pharmacists into the health care debate. Lets elevate the profile of your friendly community pharmacists who is in a prime position to help provide primary care.
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Are you serious? You are a trained pharmacist. You are in no way trained to provide primary care. To suggest so is an insult to any MD/DO student or practitioner who has taken the step to become a physician.

You dispense drugs and deal with pharmacy. That is your field of study and trade. You are good at it but you are not a physician/primary care provider.

The PharmD is a 5-6 yr Bachelor-Masters degree that has been extrapolated into a doctorate degree - please do not assume it qualifies you to offer anyone primary care medicine in any setting.
 
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Congratulations on being part of the problem.

**** off.
 
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miam042 said:
Are you serious? You are a trained pharmacist. You are in no way trained to provide primary care. To suggest so is an insult to any MD/DO student or practitioner who has taken the step to become a physician.

You dispense drugs and deal with pharmacy. That is your field of study and trade. You are good at it but you are not a physician/primary care provider.

The PharmD is a 5-6 yr Bachelor-Masters degree that has been extrapolated into a doctorate degree - please do not assume it qualifies you to offer anyone primary care medicine in any setting.
Click to expand...

uh oh......
Its about time it got interesting again around here!
 
miam042 said:
Are you serious? You are a trained pharmacist. You are in no way trained to provide primary care. To suggest so is an insult to any MD/DO student or practitioner who has taken the step to become a physician.

You dispense drugs and deal with pharmacy. That is your field of study and trade. You are good at it but you are not a physician/primary care provider.

The PharmD is a 5-6 yr Bachelor-Masters degree that has been extrapolated into a doctorate degree - please do not assume it qualifies you to offer anyone primary care medicine in any setting.
Click to expand...

Ignorance like this is what's causing the problem in the first place. You don't know how pharmacists are trained. Have you gone to pharmacy school? Pharmacists are many times in great position to offer primary care and they are often preferred over physicians (having to wait in a room for ~1 hour, paying just to see a physician for about 15 minutes,etc, vs walking right into a pharmacy and talking to a pharmacist).

Pharmacists aren't physicians, you're right, and we're not trying to be. The OP isn't saying we want to be recognized as such. However, we are clinically trained and are qualified to provide sound medical advice, referring those to physicians that need to be referred. What we want is some recognition for our expertise. The PharmD degree isn't some glorified bachelor's degree. We have clinical, hands-on training with patients. Sure, we aren't trained to provide diagnosis, and that's not what most pharmacists are going for.

All we want is respect from other healthcare professionals. Maybe you should really read up on how we are trained and the broad spectrum of pharmacist duties there are before you try to degrade the profession of pharmacy and calling us dr.-wanna-be's with "extrapolated" bachelors-masters. You know there isn't such a thing as a bachelor-masters, right?
 
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miam042 said:
Are you serious? You are a trained pharmacist. You are in no way trained to provide primary care. To suggest so is an insult to any MD/DO student or practitioner who has taken the step to become a physician.

You dispense drugs and deal with pharmacy. That is your field of study and trade. You are good at it but you are not a physician/primary care provider.

The PharmD is a 5-6 yr Bachelor-Masters degree that has been extrapolated into a doctorate degree - please do not assume it qualifies you to offer anyone primary care medicine in any setting.
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yeah it's okay, lack of primary care MD/DO's and autonomous NP's are going to gut primary care anyway. No payor will want to pay for an MD/DO for primary care unless there's a chronic condition involved.

Us pharmacists won't have to do anything....

and bachelor-master's degree? you're an idiot. sounds like you feel the need to defend your degree already by belittling others. hahah....trying to make up for something, eh?
 
miam042 said:
The PharmD is a 5-6 yr Bachelor-Masters degree that has been extrapolated into a doctorate degree - please do not assume it qualifies you to offer anyone primary care medicine in any setting.
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While I completely agree, you need to concede that the MD degree is essentially an extended BS degree, too. Do physicians complete and defend thesis? No. Give me a break...if medicine is a "doctorate level" degree, then pharmacy is, too. The overall inflation of degrees and titles is ridiculous.

It also goes to show how little you've thought this through. A doctorate level degree means that one has acquired the highest level of academic stature within a subject. So by saying that 4 years of medical school is doctorate level learning while 4 years of pharmacy school isn't, you are claiming that pharmacy must therefore be more complex than medicine. Personally, I laugh rather heartily at the assertion that either should be a doctorate. I've seen seen first year residents make so many ******ed decisions that it quite literally frightens me that they have prescriptive authority. Pharmacists are useless right out of school everywhere but retail, too. Highest level of knowledge my ass. That's why we have residencies. Now if you want to give a fella a doctorate after a residency, I could see that. Hell, that makes sense.

And further, I think you are speaking from a stance of ignorance on this issue. What MPD is probably talking about is the role pharmacists should have (as in, there are studies showing that more RPh input = better outcomes) within the realm of medication management. Nobody thinks the RPh should be trying to really diagnose anything.
 
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Athrok said:
Congratulations on being part of the problem.

**** off.
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Part of the problem? So your soltion to the primary care issue is to allow non-medically trained pharmacists to become primary care providers? Huh? Thats absurd. I would hope many PharmD students would agree as well.

There are many ways to become a pcp - Go to medical school and get an MD or DO degree. If you just want the patient care part you could go to PA school or become a nurse. All these fields are expanding to fill the PCP gap
at the current time.

Suggesting that PharmDs should just assume this role for a quick fix is ridiculous. Its also insulting to anyone who is actually going to school to become a physician or other pcp provider.

As for the degree...I have thought that one through, have you? Obtaining a PharmD in 6-8 yrs with/without a BA/BS before hand is not the same as attending 4 yrs for a BA/BS, then 4 yrs for a MD/DO, and then 4-7 yrs of residency.
PharmD - 6-8 years total
MD/DO - 12-15 years total
It is not the same. It is about half.

MD/DOs have been receiving doctorates for the past 200 years. It is not an inflated degree. Pharmacy was a masters level degree until recently and many in the academic and working world believe it still is a masters level of education/training that has been inflated to bring respect to the profession.

Why dont you pose this question in the MD/DO forums and see how much respect it brings you and the PharmD community.
 
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Leave it to a punk ass medical student to get on here and spout off.

First, click on the link I posted and read the article.

Second, read my comments carefully.

Third make an intelligent comment based on what is posted not on your ignorance.
 
miam042 said:
As for the degree, I have thought it through. Obtaining a PharmD in 6-8 yrs with/without a BA/BS before hand is not the same as attending 4 yrs for a BA/BS, then 4 yrs for a MD/DO, and then 4-7 yrs of residency.
PharmD - 6-8 years total
MD/DO - 12-15 years total
It is not the same. It is about half.
Click to expand...

Now you pissed me off...not because of your arrogance...heck, I'm arrogant...but because you think I didn't think something through...and if your ass could read, I said I could see giving a person a doctorate after a residency. Why? Because at that point, they are at the highest point of academic training. And, again, a fresh MD is useless out of residency and isn't worthy of the title "Doctor."

Your numbers are f'd up, too. Pharmacists also do 1-4 years of residency/fellowship if they so please. And you need a BS to get into some schools. So a UCSF grad with a residency in oncology might spend 11 years in training. Is he also not worthy of a "doctorate?" (Titles are lame...lmao) Again, showing you have no idea what you are talking about. If you're going to show up and speak as though you know what the hell you are talking about, know what the hell you are talking about...Jesus...H...

Completely pointless...but I know a dude that did college in 7 years at WVU (you only need three years of school to get into med school...minimum)...did a fam practice residency in 3....10 years total...practicing on his own at age 29...perty nice. He's in his mid-30s now...one of the best PCPs in town, too. Listens...thinks...isn't an arrogant *******...ignores drug reps...
 
For starters 90% of my incoming class has a bachelors. Keep in mind PharmDs continue to expand our residence slots to PGY1/PGY2. Six years? Education stops when you want it to stop.

Most medical schools don't require a bachelors (90 credit hours seems average) but try finding one that accepts students without a bachelors. Do we all deserve respect? Absolutely.

The problem is the superiority complex. It causes and complicates issues. In this sense, you are part of the problem. Stop.

Our degree is being cheapened right now, without doubt, but I went to a Kroger earlier and watched a retail clinic assembly...it could be part of your professions future as well.
 
miam042 said:
Part of the problem? So your soltion to the primary care issue is to allow non-medically trained pharmacists to become primary care providers? Huh? Thats absurd. I would hope many PharmD students would agree as well.

There are many ways to become a pcp - Go to medical school and get an MD or DO degree. If you just want the patient care part you could go to PA school or become a nurse. All these fields are expanding to fill the PCP gap
at the current time.

Suggesting that PharmDs should just assume this role for a quick fix is ridiculous. Its also insulting to anyone who is actually going to school to become a physician or other pcp provider.

Why dont you pose this question in the MD/DO forums and see how much respect it brings you and the PharmD community.
Click to expand...
Its obvious that you have never been on rounds before. You have no clue what we do.

You sound so bright, after all you read the article right?

you are missing the point stupid. Primary care is supposed to be a team effort. You need bare minimum board scores to be a PCP. Are you going to be a pro at managing medications? Will you be up to date on the latest guidelines? Will you be able to consider kinetics of the drug? Will you be looking out for dosing, duplication? Thats a lot on the plate for a PCP to worry about. Why not bring a pharmacist on board to manage meds. NPs, PAs, they cant do that ****. and I doubt some MDs ability to do that too.
 
There is NO need to argue with medical students about pharmacy. They will NEVER listen. It doesn't matter what you guys say, med students will always feel superior and always believe that Pharm, DO, Dent, Pod, Opt, Vet, etc are inferior/stupid and are only doing what they do because they were medical school rejects. To them unless you are an MD, you are stupid and don't know anything. :rolleyes: While I was at Columbia, I had a med student said flat out that "Dr." = MD and everyone else should be Mr. and Ms. and do NOT deserve the Dr. title! :eek:
 
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miam042 said:
Part of the problem? So your soltion to the primary care issue is to allow non-medically trained pharmacists to become primary care providers? Huh? Thats absurd. I would hope many PharmD students would agree as well.

There are many ways to become a pcp - Go to medical school and get an MD or DO degree. If you just want the patient care part you could go to PA school or become a nurse. All these fields are expanding to fill the PCP gap
at the current time.

Suggesting that PharmDs should just assume this role for a quick fix is ridiculous. Its also insulting to anyone who is actually going to school to become a physician or other pcp provider.

Why dont you pose this question in the MD/DO forums and see how much respect it brings you and the PharmD community.
Click to expand...

You are not welcome to this pharmacy forum if you are trying to belittle other professions. I take this as an insult. And you do not have any of my respect even this is just an internet forum.
 
SHC1984 said:
While I was at Columbia, I had a med student said flat out that "Dr." = MD and everyone else should be Mr. and Ms. and do NOT deserve the Dr. title! :eek:
Click to expand...

lol, luckily this is the minority...we should do what Germany does and Dr. = PhD only.
 
miam042 said:
Part of the problem? So your soltion to the primary care issue is to allow non-medically trained pharmacists to become primary care providers? Huh? Thats absurd. I would hope many PharmD students would agree as well.

There are many ways to become a pcp - Go to medical school and get an MD or DO degree. If you just want the patient care part you could go to PA school or become a nurse. All these fields are expanding to fill the PCP gap
at the current time.

Suggesting that PharmDs should just assume this role for a quick fix is ridiculous. Its also insulting to anyone who is actually going to school to become a physician or other pcp provider.

Why dont you pose this question in the MD/DO forums and see how much respect it brings you and the PharmD community.
Click to expand...

What is your proposed solution to the shortage of primary care physicians? Many of your colleagues will argue that NPs lack sufficient training and clinical experience to fill the role. There aren't nearly enough PAs to fill the gap, and statutory limitations on their practice would make it difficult even if their were sufficient numbers. Increasing medical school enrollment (unlikely) wouldn't help for many years, and then you have to get past the lack of desirable residency spots.

No one here has suggested that pharmacists become primary care providers; but pharmacists are in a prime spot to ease the burden on existing providers. Pharmacists are in a prime position to monitor and adjust drug therapy as needed, and refer the patient back to the physician when necessary. No diagnosing or treatment involved.

You're a part of the problem because you fail to recognize this. We're not asking to be physicians - we're asking to do what we're best at as pharmacists.
 
MountainPharmD said:
......community pharmacists who is in a prime position to help provide primary care.
Click to expand...

I guess I will have to break this down for our slow medical student friend. Just like some poor pharmacist will be doing someday when he cannot write a coherent prescription. Notice, my med student friend, I underlined and bolded the key word in my initial post. I did not specifically spell out what help I was referring to. I figure those who have been in pharmacy for a few years know exactly what type of help I am talking about. I certainly did not say pharmacists should be providing primary care. I am not going to explain it any further to someone who doesn't know dick about dick yet.

Here is a key quote from the article I posted a link to in my initial post. I will again bold and highlight the key words or phrases for our slower readers.

When Dr. Robert Flaherty launched a private practice in 2001, he soon found himself cramming in as many patients as possible to make ends meet, leaving little time to discuss with them the steps they could take to prevent future health troubles.

"I constantly felt that conflict of going faster than I should," said Flaherty, 40, who gave up his practice after four years for a hospital post. "Everyone knows if you want to make a decent living, become a specialist; if you want to be banging your head, go into primary care."
Click to expand...

Who is in a better position to help a primary care physician than a pharmacist? Help manage medication therapy, help with disease state management, help optimize drug therapy. I hope my point is a bit more clear.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Now you pissed me off...not because of your arrogance...heck, I'm arrogant...but because you think I didn't think something through...and if your ass could read, I said I could see giving a person a doctorate after a residency. Why? Because at that point, they are at the highest point of academic training. And, again, a fresh MD is useless out of residency and isn't worthy of the title "Doctor."

Your numbers are f'd up, too. Pharmacists also do 1-4 years of residency/fellowship if they so please. And you need a BS to get into some schools. So a UCSF grad with a residency in oncology might spend 11 years in training. Is he also not worthy of a "doctorate?" (Titles are lame...lmao) Again, showing you have no idea what you are talking about. If you're going to show up and speak as though you know what the hell you are talking about, know what the hell you are talking about...Jesus...H...

Completely pointless...but I know a dude that did college in 7 years at WVU (you only need three years of school to get into med school...minimum)...did a fam practice residency in 3....10 years total...practicing on his own at age 29...perty nice. He's in his mid-30s now...one of the best PCPs in town, too. Listens...thinks...isn't an arrogant *******...ignores drug reps...
Click to expand...
Completely agree. I have not posted in this forum for quite long. Now I have to leave a comment: the guy with the title miam042 is an idiot.
 
miam042 said:
As for the degree...I have thought that one through, have you? Obtaining a PharmD in 6-8 yrs with/without a BA/BS before hand is not the same as attending 4 yrs for a BA/BS, then 4 yrs for a MD/DO, and then 4-7 yrs of residency.
PharmD - 6-8 years total
MD/DO - 12-15 years total
It is not the same. It is about half.
Click to expand...

I did 4 years to earn two BS degrees
I did another 4 years to earn my PharmD
I did 1 year of PGY1 general practice residency
I am in the midst of 1 year of a PGY2 residency

I total up 10 yrs here...

Pharmacists can fill in the holes. There are plenty of pharmacists that are already working in primary care...anticoag clinics, titrating diabetic meds, MTM, monitoring blood pressure, lipids, HIV adherence... They aren't PCP's they are working in the speciality area of medication management...things that PCPs do not do very well.

Please get informed before spouting off...
 
confettiflyer said:
hahahhhaha, stay around and keep talking, this is entertaining. I love seeing people make fools of themselves :smuggrin: :corny:
Click to expand...

I think its great too. The fire and passion in here is great. :)
I can tell this is a sore subject, but honestly I hear these sorts of comments everyday about PharmDs from PharmDs themselves.
Sorry, not an elitist, not arrogant. The argument the degree is inflated is real and is contended by people amongst your own profession. I didnt create the argument, pharmacist did.
 
KARM12 said:
I did 4 years to earn two BS degrees
I did another 4 years to earn my PharmD
I did 1 year of PGY1 general practice residency
I am in the midst of 1 year of a PGY2 residency

I total up 10 yrs here...

Pharmacists can fill in the holes. There are plenty of pharmacists that are already working in primary care...anticoag clinics, titrating diabetic meds, MTM, monitoring blood pressure, lipids, HIV adherence... They aren't PCP's they are working in the speciality area of medication management...things that PCPs do not do very well.

Please get informed before spouting off...
Click to expand...

KARM is right. Most of us (at 4 yr pharmD schools) are totaling up at the minimum 9 to 10 years of education + residency.
 
miam042 said:
I think its great too. The fire and passion in here is great. :)
I can tell this is a sore subject, but honestly I hear these sorts of comments everyday about PharmDs from PharmDs themselves.
Click to expand...

Sore subject? I'm a hospital pharmacist that wants to be a director. Not really a sore subject for me. I'll never have anything to do with this stuff. I just like making people with poor debating skills look stupid as I am an argument enthusiast and a sadist. And, what do you know...poof...there you were...

Sorry, not an elitist, not arrogant. The argument the degree is inflated is real and is contended by people amongst your own profession. I didnt create the argument, pharmacist did.
Click to expand...

That is true. But put yourself in the shoes of a dude with a pharmacy degree pre-90s. You have a bachelors and these whipper-snappers fresh out of schools have doctorates...I wouldn't be pissed because I think titles are ******ed...I think medicine, pharmacy, dentistry...all of it...should be a bachelors....but those older folks...I could see how they are at least annoyed by it all.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Sore subject? I'm a hospital pharmacist that wants to be a director. Not really a sore subject for me. I'll never have anything to do with this stuff. I just like making people with poor debating skills look stupid as I am an argument enthusiast and a sadist. And, what do you know...poof...there you were...
Click to expand...
:thumbup:. Please do not agrue with the fool.
 
Alright...what's the over/under on how long this thread gets posted on some premed forum and we get a flood of hubris dripping premed warriors making a visit?
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Alright...what's the over/under on how long this thread gets posted on some premed forum and we get a flood of hubris dripping premed warriors making a visit?
Click to expand...

I feel like you would be the one to start that trouble.
 
MustLoveDrugs said:
I don't think "Miam" has figured out yet that he/she is the fool in this scenario...
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. I now believe that the PharmD degree is not an inflated masters degree and that Americans should receive their trusted primary care at CVS/Walgreens from their local pharmacist who works there.
 
miam042 said:
Yes, I have. I now believe that the PharmD degree is not an inflated masters degree and that Americans should receive their trusted primary care at CVS/Walgreens from their local pharmacist who works there.
Click to expand...

Nope he has not figured it out yet. But it is fun to watch him continue to type dumb stuff.

Besides he is out of the loop. Walgreens won't have pharmacists working in the stores soon.
 
so did anyone catch kanye west's outburst at the VMA's? :cool:
 
miam042 said:
Yes, I have. I now believe that the PharmD degree is not an inflated masters degree and that Americans should receive their trusted primary care at CVS/Walgreens from their local pharmacist who works there.
Click to expand...

I don't know which is scarier to me... The fact that you have, albeit sarcastically, drawn the above conclusions from this forum discussion or the prospect of walking into your office in a few years for "trusted primary care."
 
They booed kanye all night, it was great.

here he is messing with the health care debate

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKIcrDsJAs[/YOUTUBE]
 
miam042,

I certainly hope you don't turn out to be like a few of the MDs I am currently working with. The last thing the medical profession needs are more MDs who don't make the time to stay up to date on current practice guidelines. MDs who would rather b.s. their way through a topic than receive the most current evidence based medicine because it is being provided to them from a Pharmacist.

In the future hopefully you find your way and become a MD who collaborates with other members of the medical team rather than trying to be the be all end all of the medical team. Medical teams need educated leaders and not ignorant dictators.

Best wishes.

of note:

Here are the Admissions Requirements at a friendly DO program you may be familiar with ( http://medicine.nova.edu/do/admissions/index.html ):
1.A bachelor's degree is preferred and must be from a regionally accredited college or university. A minimum of 90 semester hours of accepted work from a regionally accredited college or university may be considered for admission.

and

Some math review: 90 credits = 3 years plus 4 years DO school plus 3 years Fam Practice Residency= 10 years total training
 
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so along the lines of pharmacists filling the impending shortage of general practitioners....is it accurate to say that as NP's are taking over the general practitioner dig they lack the pharmacology knowledge of an MD/DO and so depend more on pharmacist consults.. the NP+Clinically trained Pharmacist combo is maybe a paradigm we'll see more and more to fill the GP need?
 
gsinccom said:
miam042,

I certainly hope you don't turn out to be like a few of the MDs I am currently working with. The last thing the medical profession needs are more MDs who don't make the time to stay up to date on current practice guidelines. MDs who would rather b.s. their way through a topic than receive the most current evidence based medicine because it is being provided to them from a Pharmacist.

In the future hopefully you find your way and become a MD who collaborates with other members of the medical team rather than trying to be the be all end all of the medical team. Medical teams need educated leaders and not ignorant dictators.

Best wishes.

of note:

Here are the Admissions Requirements at a friendly DO program you may be familiar with ( http://medicine.nova.edu/do/admissions/index.html ):
1.A bachelor's degree is preferred and must be from a regionally accredited college or university. A minimum of 90 semester hours of accepted work from a regionally accredited college or university may be considered for admission.

and

Some math review: 90 credits = 3 years plus 4 years DO school plus 3 years Fam Practice Residency= 10 years total training
Click to expand...


Go nova! :D

This reminds me of a quote..."Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".Greg King

on a side note: I think miami was just quick to talk, give him a break he is still a student, still learning, and Im sure he will cross a Pharmacist eventually in the future if he hasn't learned a few things from these posts.
 
miam042 said:
Part of the problem? So your soltion to the primary care issue is to allow non-medically trained pharmacists to become primary care providers? Huh? Thats absurd. I would hope many PharmD students would agree as well.

There are many ways to become a pcp - Go to medical school and get an MD or DO degree. If you just want the patient care part you could go to PA school or become a nurse. All these fields are expanding to fill the PCP gap
at the current time.

Suggesting that PharmDs should just assume this role for a quick fix is ridiculous. Its also insulting to anyone who is actually going to school to become a physician or other pcp provider.

As for the degree...I have thought that one through, have you? Obtaining a PharmD in 6-8 yrs with/without a BA/BS before hand is not the same as attending 4 yrs for a BA/BS, then 4 yrs for a MD/DO, and then 4-7 yrs of residency.
PharmD - 6-8 years total
MD/DO - 12-15 years total
It is not the same. It is about half.

MD/DOs have been receiving doctorates for the past 200 years. It is not an inflated degree. Pharmacy was a masters level degree until recently and many in the academic and working world believe it still is a masters level of education/training that has been inflated to bring respect to the profession.

Why dont you pose this question in the MD/DO forums and see how much respect it brings you and the PharmD community.
Click to expand...

You are a medical student who knows sh%^. The transplant physicians I work with would laugh at your ignorance. Ask them who they would rather have adjusting meds you....or me.

And if you go to nova this is even more laughable.
 
bigpharmD said:
You are a medical student who knows sh%^. The transplant physicians I work with would laugh at your ignorance. Ask them who they would rather have adjusting meds you....or me.

And if you go to nova this is even more laughable.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:...hopefully he is dumb enough to come back and argue more, this is entertaining.
 
haha...he even says that MD/DO has been the doctorate level/same for 200 years, I'm staring at a brochure for my school's medical college that states it was only 2yrs in length in the 1800's.

hahahah....history FAIL. if he's gonna bring up history and an expanded/inflated/extrapolated degree, he better know what else is back there.
 
confettiflyer said:
haha...he even says that MD/DO has been the doctorate level/same for 200 years, I'm staring at a brochure for my school's medical college that states it was only 2yrs in length in the 1800's.

hahahah....history FAIL. if he's gonna bring up history and an expanded/inflated/extrapolated degree, he better know what else is back there.
Click to expand...

In the early 1800s, you did not even need a degree to be a physician. You could become one by being an apprentice.
 
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