Biden to forgive 10k to everyone and leave us RPH out, we must unite

[Rainbowdash]

you guys are both right and at the same time both wrong! As an immigrant, I can speak to the points made about education and opportunity in Europe and a few other regions.
Almost all of Europe is socialist to different degrees. This means you don't have the extreme lows (poverty) or the extreme highs (physicians making $1 million). I have a cousin in Sweden, he patiently waited and eventually was chosen to attend Medical school at 40 and is now an Ophthalmologist and eye surgeon. All the MDs are salaried, paid by the Government, all healthcare is free. He is single, makes enough to afford a 1 BR apartment, but not a car. He rides his bicycle around around Gothenburg where he was assigned to work. His retirement is taken care of. All healthcare, education and all social services is taken care of. AND pharmacist make far less than him (we can only dream of bicycles - jk) He takes a month or two off (he can take up to 3 months off a year) and bicycles throughout Europe. Maybe one day, he can afford a Volvo. He is very content and unstressed. BUT its apples and watermelons, there is no comparison between them and us. Again, no abject poverty to dig yourself out of, and no great opportunities/wealth to stress over.

Yep. What you say is true. I am an immigrant as well, and my husband has a passport from a Western European country. I am mad at myself that we did not leave for Europe before the kids were born. Everything hands down is better in Europe: from education, medical system, food, way of life, parenting--everything. I am still figuring out our move, but sad to leave our oldest kid-- he is "American" and does not want to go anywhere. Money is not everything.

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[snooper]

Nothing is "free"when it involves the government.It means someone else is paying for it.

Correct, but the burden is distributed.

 

[snooper]

Re Old timers:
I think it's pretty obvious that you cannot "work your way through college or medical school today."
In the old days, you could make enough over the summer to finance the rest of the year. True, we had no car or cellphones, no eating out, etc.

 

[snooper]

"Almost all of Europe is socialist to different degrees."
True, if "socialist" is if there's healthcare for all, debt-free education, livable retirement - and the income/wealth range from highest to lowest is narrower.

 

[JustFillIt]

Our 700k house bought 3 years ago became a million dollar house this year cause of the crazy market. First house was only 300k so it was a big upgrade.

That’s cool - I had the same happen to me in my market.

It is interesting to think - when I graduated the idea of buying a 300k home seemed excessive and irresponsible. My budget was strictly 225-250k and we stuck to it. My first home was 240k.

Fast forward almost a decade later - I am making the SAME wage that I did then (I went straight into a PIC role out of graduation) and the idea of a 300k home seems absurdly cheap and would offer unsafe neighborhoods/schools with very undesirable living conditions. We have to have AT LEAST a 500k budget on literally the same, or less, salary.

Anyway - there is some sort of cognitive dissonance in the older generations. They honestly believe that “things are the same” as they used to be and if we just put elbow grease into our job and eat rice and beans - this is what we should do. All I can say is, trust me, you don’t want me to eat rice and beans for the next 10 years - you would have to buy a whole separate 500k house to live with/around me.

Anyway - I would venture a guess that most modern pharmacists (graduated post 2012) , who were actually able to pay off their 200k loans in full by now likely received some sort of windfall (insurance settlement, inheritance, etc.) or some other arrangement that made it possible like living rent free at parents house or something.

I know you said you paid off your loans - did you actually do the beans and rice thing or was there some point where an event/arrangement took place that allowed you to slap down your payment in full or make large payments due to some other assistance?

 

[mentos]

That’s cool - I had the same happen to me in my market.

It is interesting to think - when I graduated the idea of buying a 300k home seemed excessive and irresponsible. My budget was strictly 225-250k and we stuck to it. My first home was 240k.

Fast forward almost a decade later - I am making the SAME wage that I did then (I went straight into a PIC role out of graduation) and the idea of a 300k home seems absurdly cheap and would offer unsafe neighborhoods/schools with very undesirable living conditions. We have to have AT LEAST a 500k budget on literally the same, or less, salary.

Anyway - there is some sort of cognitive dissonance in the older generations. They honestly believe that “things are the same” as they used to be and if we just put elbow grease into our job and eat rice and beans - this is what we should do. All I can say is, trust me, you don’t want me to eat rice and beans for the next 10 years - you would have to buy a whole separate 500k house to live with/around me.

Anyway - I would venture a guess that most modern pharmacists (graduated post 2012) , who were actually able to pay off their 200k loans in full by now likely received some sort of windfall (insurance settlement, inheritance, etc.) or some other arrangement that made it possible like living rent free at parents house or something.

I know you said you paid off your loans - did you actually do the beans and rice thing or was there some point where an event/arrangement took place that allowed you to slap down your payment in full or make large payments due to some other assistance?

Nope I've been financially independent since moving out of the house at age 18. Entered pharmacy late and had a different career in my 20s where I maxed out at 60k salary. Lived like a student the whole time since I had no one to bail me out, I was truly on my own. Cheap rent, no cable, $3000 used car, didn't eat out or travel much, no smart phone until like 2016. When I became a pharmacist my salary doubled so I thought it was easy. My wife and I shared a one bedroom apartment with $1100/mo rent and the rest of our paycheck went straight to the loans. I didn't know anything about investing back then so I was hell bent on getting out of debt.

 

[JustFillIt]

Nope I've been financially independent since moving out of the house at age 18. Entered pharmacy late and had a different career in my 20s where I maxed out at 60k salary. Lived like a student the whole time since I had no one to bail me out, I was truly on my own. Cheap rent, no cable, $3000 used car, didn't eat out or travel much, no smart phone until like 2016. When I became a pharmacist my salary doubled so I thought it was easy. My wife and I shared a one bedroom apartment with $1100/mo rent and the rest of our paycheck went straight to the loans. I didn't know anything about investing back then so I was hell bent on getting out of debt.

That’s a great success story - that takes a lot of grit to accomplish and I truly admire you for doing it like that.

There are stories like yours and my hat comes off to those that made it happen. But I suspect that the majority of debt free pharmacists which graduated post 2012 or so likely had some sort of windfall or circumstance that made it possible.

Thanks for sharing your story - I sometimes wish I could have done it that way. My way was much different - I suppressed my loans as much as possible while investing in other things. I am literally debt free in all ways except student loans at this point. I suppose I could pay my loans off in full but now it would make more financial sense to just continue making IBR minimum payments and look for the 20/30 year forgiveness.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

That’s a great success story - that takes a lot of grit to accomplish and I truly admire you for doing it like that.

There are stories like yours and my hat comes off to those that made it happen. But I suspect that the majority of debt free pharmacists which graduated post 2012 or so likely had some sort of windfall or circumstance that made it possible.

Thanks for sharing your story - I sometimes wish I could have done it that way. My way was much different - I suppressed my loans as much as possible while investing in other things. I am literally debt free in all ways except student loans at this point. I suppose I could pay my loans off in full but now it would make more financial sense to just continue making IBR minimum payments and look for the 20/30 year forgiveness.

Agreed, props mentos.

In a very similar position to you FillIt, I suppose. Makes more sense to go for the 20 yr forgiveness vs. being hellbent on paying them off. Especially if any portion of it is forgiven between now and then.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Re Old timers:
I think it's pretty obvious that you cannot "work your way through college or medical school today."
In the old days, you could make enough over the summer to finance the rest of the year. True, we had no car or cellphones, no eating out, etc.

you can still pay your living expenses (likely not tuition) by working full time + OT in the summers. We have people at our hospital who do it. Even had one person work nights as a tech (7 on 7 off) while going to school full time and graduated with honors.

 

[Dred Pirate]

you guys are both right and at the same time both wrong! As an immigrant, I can speak to the points made about education and opportunity in Europe and a few other regions.
Almost all of Europe is socialist to different degrees. This means you don't have the extreme lows (poverty) or the extreme highs (physicians making $1 million). I have a cousin in Sweden, he patiently waited and eventually was chosen to attend Medical school at 40 and is now an Ophthalmologist and eye surgeon. All the MDs are salaried, paid by the Government, all healthcare is free. He is single, makes enough to afford a 1 BR apartment, but not a car. He rides his bicycle around around Gothenburg where he was assigned to work. His retirement is taken care of. All healthcare, education and all social services is taken care of. AND pharmacist make far less than him (we can only dream of bicycles - jk) He takes a month or two off (he can take up to 3 months off a year) and bicycles throughout Europe. Maybe one day, he can afford a Volvo. He is very content and unstressed. BUT its apples and watermelons, there is no comparison between them and us. Again, no abject poverty to dig yourself out of, and no great opportunities/wealth to stress over.

this sort of reminds me of this story (link below)- I know a handfull of European immigrants that in the middle class grind and they all say they just don't get the american views on work - burn yourself out by putting in long hours to keep up with the jones's and to cover all the things that taxes usually cover in Europe, yet we still have such a wealth inequality. I think the world would be so much better off to have a flatter gini co-efficient.

How Much is Enough: A Story from Jimmy John’s

Two weeks ago I was at Jimmy John’s in Buckhead near my house and there was a sign on the wall with a parable (see photo I took from iPhone to the right). Here is the story titled How Much is…

davidcummings.org

 

[Dred Pirate]

and wow - this thread has become a microcosm of our generational fights.
Old people: - young people don't know how to work, in my time we paid cash for everything. Young people don't understand money management.

Young people - old people are so out of touch and don't get it - they had everything handed to them.

And here I am, generation x - "I hate you both" lol.


But seriously both sides have some truth and some BS.

For what it is worth - I started at $43 an hour in 04 = $88k, per the inflation calculator- that is now $67 an hour - and I make $72 - so I have actually beat inflation - I know new grads are not making $67 an hour today- but it wasn't like I was swimming in money. I bought a cheap house for 160k (simple ranch in a low cost of living area)

A couple of friends who are 7 years older than me were making in the upper 20's out of school - so they were making less real dollars than today's grads.

 

[mentos]

and wow - this thread has become a microcosm of our generational fights.
Old people: - young people don't know how to work, in my time we paid cash for everything. Young people don't understand money management.

Young people - old people are so out of touch and don't get it - they had everything handed to them.

And here I am, generation x - "I hate you both" lol.


But seriously both sides have some truth and some BS.

For what it is worth - I started at $43 an hour in 04 = $88k, per the inflation calculator- that is now $67 an hour - and I make $72 - so I have actually beat inflation - I know new grads are not making $67 an hour today- but it wasn't like I was swimming in money. I bought a cheap house for 160k (simple ranch in a low cost of living area)

A couple of friends who are 7 years older than me were making in the upper 20's out of school - so they were making less real dollars than today's grads.

I feel like there's no denying that baby boomers had it easier than millennials. The typical middle class family back then had a working husband while the wife stayed home to raise the kids. How many millennials can do that now? Half of young people can't even afford a down payment for a house.

We bought our house for 700k three years ago. The previous owners only paid 260k in 1993 which is about 468k in 2019 dollars. Adjusted for inflation, we still paid 50% more. We also put in a lot of money to replace the furnace and other plumbing, get new flooring, new windows, upgrade electrical etc. When they bought the house it was brand new, they could choose any house on the street or in town that they wanted. New home buyers today only have a few old fixer uppers to choose from and they are lucky if it's not on a busy street or undesirable neighborhood.

I think it's just a result of bigger population. Job markets like pharmacy get oversaturated cause what other options are there? Engineering and nursing are the only undergrad degrees that have a high job placement rate but not everyone can do those, and not everyone is cut for the trades. When our kids become adults, jobs will be even more saturated and there will be even less houses to choose from. They will have it harder than millennials unless something drastic changes with tuition and inflation.

 

[JustFillIt]

I feel like there's no denying that baby boomers had it easier than millennials. The typical middle class family back then had a working husband while the wife stayed home to raise the kids. How many millennials can do that now? Half of young people can't even afford a down payment for a house.

We bought our house for 700k three years ago. The previous owners only paid 260k in 1993 which is about 468k in 2019 dollars. Adjusted for inflation, we still paid 50% more. We also put in a lot of money to replace the furnace and other plumbing, get new flooring, new windows, upgrade electrical etc. When they bought the house it was brand new, they could choose any house on the street or in town that they wanted. New home buyers today only have a few old fixer uppers to choose from and they are lucky if it's not on a busy street or undesirable neighborhood.

I think it's just a result of bigger population. Job markets like pharmacy get oversaturated cause what other options are there? Engineering and nursing are the only undergrad degrees that have a high job placement rate but not everyone can do those, and not everyone is cut for the trades. When our kids become adults, jobs will be even more saturated and there will be even less houses to choose from. They will have it harder than millennials unless something drastic changes with tuition and inflation.

Yea - I have come to the population conclusion also.

We need NASA/Musk/whoever to start shipping people to other planets and do it soon. Maybe that’s the solution?

 

[Sunshine98*]

Oh it matters….

No it doesn't. I know pharmacists who are younger than me that have paid off their loans as well.

I was hell bent on getting out of debt.

I was the same way. Cant stand it to this day. Unless some circumstance would call for it where I had to, then I would. But other than that....every time I get a pay raise: act like it doesn't exist, bonus: act like it doesn't exist, extra shift: act like it doesn't exist......you wont miss the money if its not there....invest, do with less.

 

[mentos]

Yea - I have come to the population conclusion also.

We need NASA/Musk/whoever to start shipping people to other planets and do it soon. Maybe that’s the solution?

I can see them building Elysium a few centuries from now.

 

[Splenda88]

I feel like there's no denying that baby boomers had it easier than millennials. The typical middle class family back then had a working husband while the wife stayed home to raise the kids. How many millennials can do that now? Half of young people can't even afford a down payment for a house.

We bought our house for 700k three years ago. The previous owners only paid 260k in 1993 which is about 468k in 2019 dollars. Adjusted for inflation, we still paid 50% more. We also put in a lot of money to replace the furnace and other plumbing, get new flooring, new windows, upgrade electrical etc. When they bought the house it was brand new, they could choose any house on the street or in town that they wanted. New home buyers today only have a few old fixer uppers to choose from and they are lucky if it's not on a busy street or undesirable neighborhood.

I think it's just a result of bigger population. Job markets like pharmacy get oversaturated cause what other options are there? Engineering and nursing are the only undergrad degrees that have a high job placement rate but not everyone can do those, and not everyone is cut for the trades. When our kids become adults, jobs will be even more saturated and there will be even less houses to choose from. They will have it harder than millennials unless something drastic changes with tuition and inflation.

The average sqft home in the US was 1200-1300 sqft back then. Now it's 2500 sqft.

Cost of living has gotten out of control, but I suspect many families could make it work on 1 salary if they did not want to keep up with the Jones. Everyone wants the latest gadget.

I made it work on 60-69k/yr when I was in residency. It was tight but we (family of 4) had no issues even if rent was high ($1900/month). We had no car payments, no expensive phones etc...

I think builders should go back building smaller homes. A typical middle class (70-90k/yr) family of 4 should be ok to live in a 1200 sqft home. However, that is not the case today.

Unless your household income is 500k+, a house of 700k is too expensive IMO. Couldn't you be 30 minutes away from town and find something for 2/3 of that price?

 

[TranslationalRPh]

I've been a pharmacist for almost 6 years, have no debt, and I'll just say I have enough saved up to buy a good house completely up front with cash. It hasn't been easy being a pharmacist, but I do believe compared to the vast majority of people, I have it very good.

Well done! I love a success story.

I was like you. Graduated in the 2000s. I paid off my student loans in 16 months (worked 3 jobs) while working on a graduate degree. That was the last time I was in consumer debt.

That said, I do kind of agree with the sentiment that the general ROI for the pharmacist degree appears to have changed significantly.

 

[RXDOC1986]

It’s always fun when people can’t admit or recognize when luck played a role in their success. You started at 36k/yr and how many years before your wages inflated to 6 figures for no reason that was within your control?

I am sure you worked very hard for your success but if you can’t recognize that all the stars were aligned to help you succeed then I don’t know what to say. I bet your first house was like 1-2x your annual salary as well. Good for you, but maybe spare a thought for how almost impossible that would be for a new pharmacist and recognize the macro factors that made it comparatively easy for you to succeed.

I admit, there is a new paradigm as to the viability of our profession and the expected positive outcomes. But hopefully you are not equating my efforts and success as on par to the POWER BALL lottery winner! The only advantage us Baby Boomers were given was the opportunity to work hard and prosper. Funny, didn't see the stars align, my head was down and working two jobs.

 

[mentos]

The average sqft home in the US was 1200-1300 sqft back then. Now it's 2500 sqft.

Cost of living has gotten out of control, but I suspect many families could make it work on 1 salary if they did not want to keep up with the Jones. Everyone wants the latest gadget.

I made it work on 60-69k/yr when I was in residency. It was tight but we (family of 4) had no issues even if rent was high ($1900/month). We had no car payments, no expensive phones etc...

I think builders should go back building smaller homes. A typical middle class (70-90k/yr) family of 4 should be ok to live in a 1200 sqft home. However, that is not the case today.

Unless your household income is 500k+, a house of 700k is too expensive IMO. Couldn't you be 30 minutes away from town and find something for 2/3 of that price?

An empty lot sold for 650k in my town so no, you can't get a house for 466k within an hour of Boston. Not anywhere safe or desirable at least.

Our first house was 1200SF. Zillow says it's worth 525k now. It's far from town.

 

[randompharm]

For what it’s worth I put 36k from 1986 to now into two inflation calculators and both said it’s the same as just under 100k today. Now people have to go to school longer so less time to earn (pharmD), pay way more in loans, and the rest of life is also less affordable for that same wage as a pharmacist. Not trying to say you didn’t work hard because I think you have worked hard, but working hard now doesn’t offer the same opportunities as it did in the past.

This.

 

[randompharm]

I have been a pharmacist for almost 36 years, have no debt, and I'll just say, I live in a $1.3 million house.
Again a very unusual situation. Most pharmacist have to struggle to pay the bills and dig out of a bad financial situation. This is what this thread is all about

Let me make it abundantly clear to prospective students who may misinterpret your post to mean that they can afford a $1.3 million house on a pharmacist wage, it will not happen by any stretch of imagination. And i’m sure you are aware the reason you live in a $1.3 million house is due to the recent market hike, in reality it is likely a 5-600k house, if that. Even at 5-600k you had the huge benefit of becoming a pharmacist when tuition was almost free compared to today, no 15,000 pharmacists every year willing to do your job for less, and you had decades over recent, new or prospective students to save. Not mention you may have even bought your previous house during one of the market crashes, sold high, bought again, etc. which would not be a product of you being a pharmacist.

In today’s day and age, new grads with their 75-80k/year salaries, 150-200k debt, and record inflation would be extremely lucky to afford ANY house, much less a 500k one.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I feel like there's no denying that baby boomers had it easier than millennials. The typical middle class family back then had a working husband while the wife stayed home to raise the kids. How many millennials can do that now? Half of young people can't even afford a down payment for a house.

We bought our house for 700k three years ago. The previous owners only paid 260k in 1993 which is about 468k in 2019 dollars. Adjusted for inflation, we still paid 50% more. We also put in a lot of money to replace the furnace and other plumbing, get new flooring, new windows, upgrade electrical etc. When they bought the house it was brand new, they could choose any house on the street or in town that they wanted. New home buyers today only have a few old fixer uppers to choose from and they are lucky if it's not on a busy street or undesirable neighborhood.

I think it's just a result of bigger population. Job markets like pharmacy get oversaturated cause what other options are there? Engineering and nursing are the only undergrad degrees that have a high job placement rate but not everyone can do those, and not everyone is cut for the trades. When our kids become adults, jobs will be even more saturated and there will be even less houses to choose from. They will have it harder than millennials unless something drastic changes with tuition and inflation.

Yes and no.

Yes- housing - our biggest cost has increased faster than salaries for most professions. Also the cost of education is ridiculous. BUT - (at least in my experience)- my parents went through the farm crisis of the 80's and were one of the minority that that actually stayed in business, but barley by the skin of our teeth. I remember going to farm auctions as a kid were the bank came in and took everything for most of our neighbors.

Also - that generation rarely took big trips (obviously there are exceptions) - traveling around the world just was not attainable for most. My mom has left the country three times, all three since she retired and myself of my sister took her. She has taken more "big
vacations on me the last 10 years than she did in her previous 60 - and it isn't even close. Plus, people feel the need to have bigger and better homes, vs the small 1200-1500 sq foot homes that were build after WW2. If people didn't feel the need to live as lavishly, they might not be in as big of hole.

 

[Splenda88]

An empty lot sold for 650k in my town so no, you can't get a house for 466k within an hour of Boston. Not anywhere safe or desirable at least.

Our first house was 1200SF. Zillow says it's worth 525k now. It's far from town.

I wonder how middle class families (income 70-90k/yr) survive in cities like NY, Boston, DC, Miami, LA, San Francisco, San Diego etc...

 

[RXDOC1986]

Let me make it abundantly clear to prospective students who may misinterpret your post to mean that they can afford a $1.3 million house on a pharmacist wage, it will not happen by any stretch of imagination. And i’m sure you are aware the reason you live in a $1.3 million house is due to the recent market hike, in reality it is likely a 5-600k house, if that. Even at 5-600k you had the huge benefit of becoming a pharmacist when tuition was almost free compared to today, no 15,000 pharmacists every year willing to do your job for less, and you had decades over recent, new or prospective students to save. Not mention you may have even bought your previous house during one of the market crashes, sold high, bought again, etc. which would not be a product of you being a pharmacist.

In today’s day and age, new grads with their 75-80k/year salaries, 150-200k debt, and record inflation would be extremely lucky to afford ANY house, much less a 500k one.

I am sorry, you are making a whole lot of ASSumptions (and you know what that means) . Did I say a prospective student should be affording a $1 million house? So absolutely no new pharmacist should ever dream of any financial security and prosperity over their career based on your obvious failure to achieve any modicum of success (see what I did there, a stupid assumption). You have absolutely no idea what my house was worth ($825K in 2001) when it was built. I went to a private Pharmacy School, it wasn't free, I assume yours was? Do you even understand dollar values in 1982, I assume not! What the hell is market crash, bought low, sold high? have to do with anything? What is your point, should every single new grad just give up on life?
Why the abject pessimism, all the negativity? why the personal attack? Who hurt you, bro?
I assume you are a pharmacist, I assume you are not doing well, maybe you should try a little harder to succeed in life (see what I did there?)
lighten up, Francis!

 

[randompharm]

I am sorry, you are making a whole lot of ASSumptions (and you know what that means) . Did I say a prospective student should be affording a $1 million house? So absolutely no new pharmacist should ever dream of any financial security and prosperity over their career based on your obvious failure to achieve any modicum of success (see what I did there, a stupid assumption). You have absolutely no idea what my house was worth ($825K in 2001) when it was built. I went to a private Pharmacy School, it wasn't free, I assume yours was? Do you even understand dollar values in 1982, I assume not! What the hell is market crash, bought low, sold high? have to do with anything? What is your point, should every single new grad just give up on life?
Why the abject pessimism, all the negativity? why the personal attack? Who hurt you, bro?
I assume you are a pharmacist, I assume you are not doing well, maybe you should try a little harder to succeed in life (see what I did there?)
lighten up, Francis!

No personal attack at all, if it came off that way it was not the intent whatsoever, though now that i read it i see how it may have come off that way (again, unintentionally). To be honest not sure if the portion about you stating that it was an unusual situation was there before or edited later, either way again, was not intended as a personal attack and i agree that it is a very, very unusual situation and the post was just meant to highlight how different pharmacy was then vs what expectations to have now.

 

[mentos]

I wonder how middle class families (income 70-90k/yr) survive in cities like NY, Boston, DC, Miami, LA, San Francisco, San Diego etc...

Many rent forever in those cities or eventually move to a lower cost of living area. People don't stay in San Diego for long. Some combine two families into one house. That would drive me nuts. Not sure how ownership works with that, do you put like 4 names on the title?

 

[owlegrad]

But hopefully you are not equating my efforts and success as on par to the POWER BALL lottery winner!

lol I think I implied luck played a role for your generation (not you specifically) and I think I said that I am sure you worked hard so no, I wouldn’t say that I was implying your story to be on par with POWER BALL.

 

[mentos]

Best school ? How about public school ? They sent me to the best public school in the best neighborhood and no need to pay .

In case you haven't noticed, the towns with the best public schools also cost the most and have the highest taxes. In my area, an average house in an average school district would cost at least 700k. If you want the best public schools then you're looking at 1.2-1.5mil average home cost. And how are you supposed to afford these homes without two full time working parents, which leads to paying for full-time daycare! You still ignore the part about paying for daycare so I assume you never had to. Most people don't have that privilege.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

In case you haven't noticed, the towns with the best public schools also cost the most and have the highest taxes. In my area, an average house in an average school district would cost at least 700k. If you want the best public schools then you're looking at 1.2-1.5mil average home cost. And how are you supposed to afford these homes without two full time working parents, which leads to paying for full-time daycare! You still ignore the part about paying for daycare so I assume you never had to. Most people don't have that privilege.

Mentos, I don’t have children yet so I’ve never had to pay for daycare . I’m 36 at the moment and with how things are looking in society every year I admit the idea of having children doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever . Adults have hardships on their own and I can only imagine the trouble brought upon a person’s life once a child is born . If anything I’d have 1 child one day because my lady friend wants at least 1 and I’ll do the best I can to be a great father but the idea just isn’t appealing . My idea of a great life is taking a sweet vacation to Europe with my partner, enjoying the culture and gastronomy , learning history or enjoying the beaches along the Persian gulf (UAE/Dubai) or the whitsunday islands in Australia . Afterwards, coming home, working, sleeping in a little later without a child crying , etc . I’ve done all these things and it’s also possible without children . Life changes with kids and at 36, I’m not so sure I’d be too thrilled with a disruption to my life . I really hope one day my mentality changes and can see children as something wonderful and a blessing . But for now , no, never had to pay daycare . My mom is around though and she is more than willing to care for a future child whenever needed or if I want to go out with my girl for dinner/date nights . We’ll see what happens .

 

[mentos]

Mentos, I don’t have children yet so I’ve never had to pay for daycare . I’m 36 at the moment and with how things are looking in society every year I admit the idea of having children doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever . Adults have hardships on their own and I can only imagine the trouble brought upon a person’s life once a child is born . If anything I’d have 1 child one day because my lady friend wants at least 1 and I’ll do the best I can to be a great father but the idea just isn’t appealing . My idea of a great life is taking a sweet vacation to Europe with my partner, enjoying the culture and gastronomy , learning history or enjoying the beaches along the Persian gulf (UAE/Dubai) or the whitsunday islands in Australia . Afterwards, coming home, working, sleeping in a little later without a child crying , etc . I’ve done all these things and it’s also possible without children . Life changes with kids and at 36, I’m not so sure I’d be too thrilled with a disruption to my life . I really hope one day my mentality changes and can see children as something wonderful and a blessing . But for now , no, never had to pay daycare . My mom is around though and she is more than willing to care for a future child whenever needed or if I want to go out with my girl for dinner/date nights . We’ll see what happens .

Come on man, you don't have kids but you're telling us kids aren't expensive? That's the single person giving relationship advice.

Some other basic expenses that any responsible parent will have:

Health/dental insurance - adding a dependent costs more than double your own premium because your employer subsidizes yours, but not your family members

Life insurance - around $700-1000/year per spouse for a $1mil policy unless you want to leave your kids with nothing if you pass

Food - you've seen how much groceries have gone up. Formula is expensive. Teenagers eat more than adults!

Baby stuff - a lot of hand me downs can be had for free but diapers and wipes are expensive, and you will use much more than you think.

Parents to be say things like "my kid won't be spoiled, I'll send him to the cheapest public school", "I won't buy him anything new or fancy", "I won't waste money on this or that". Then when they actually have the child, everything changes. Priorities change and you just want the best for your kid. That's fine if you don't want kids, people who don't want them shouldn't have them. I'm really confused why you're telling everyone they aren't expensive though.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

Come on man, you don't have kids but you're telling us kids aren't expensive? That's the single person giving relationship advice.

Some other basic expenses that any responsible parent will have:

Health/dental insurance - adding a dependent costs more than double your own premium because your employer subsidizes yours, but not your family members

Life insurance - around $700-1000/year per spouse for a $1mil policy unless you want to leave your kids with nothing if you pass

Food - you've seen how much groceries have gone up. Formula is expensive. Teenagers eat more than adults!

Baby stuff - a lot of hand me downs can be had for free but diapers and wipes are expensive, and you will use much more than you think.

Parents to be say things like "my kid won't be spoiled, I'll send him to the cheapest public school", "I won't buy him anything new or fancy", "I won't waste money on this or that". Then when they actually have the child, everything changes. Priorities change and you just want the best for your kid. That's fine if you don't want kids, people who don't want them shouldn't have them. I'm really confused why you're telling everyone they aren't expensive though.

Mentos, you are completely lost and confused here with one of the many other responses in this thread. Read post #40 from me. You will see I make it very clear that even without having any I am aware of how expensive they are . The post starts off with me mentioning salaries at Walgreens being low and how pharmacists complain about their salaries . If you read that you will see I do not mention anywhere they are cheap . I guess someone else stated they are cheap but certainly not me . I agree with you and that’s why I definitely have cold feet .

 

[mentos]

Mentos, you are completely lost and confused here with one of the many other responses in this thread. Read post #40 from me. You will see I make it very clear that even without having any I am aware of how expensive they are . The post starts off with me mentioning salaries at Walgreens being low and how pharmacists complain about their salaries . If you read that you will see I do not mention anywhere they are cheap . I guess someone else stated they are cheap but certainly not me . I agree with you and that’s why I definitely have cold feet .

My bad! Guess I lost track of who said it.

 

[owlegrad]

My bad! Guess I lost track of who said it.

You’re thinking of the other dude with like 5 kids or whatever. I presume at some point you get economies of scale when it comes to children (older kid babysits the younger ones, hand me downs, no longer caring if they have nice things, etc) but as a childless adult I am only speculating.

 

[Splenda88]

Many rent forever in those cities or eventually move to a lower cost of living area. People don't stay in San Diego for long. Some combine two families into one house. That would drive me nuts. Not sure how ownership works with that, do you put like 4 names on the title?

Now rent is getting crazy as well...

I guess I am lucky to be in a small city where one can get a decent home (2000 sqft) for $300k...

I am hoping that the housing market takes major downturn again like 2008-2013 so I can accelerate my financial independence

 

[confettiflyer]

Lol I take a nice quick vacation and then wtf happened to this thread??

 

[JustFillIt]

I wonder how middle class families (income 70-90k/yr) survive in cities like NY, Boston, DC, Miami, LA, San Francisco, San Diego etc...

I would assume it’s because they bought their homes 10+ years ago

 

[RxPreceptor]

Let me make it abundantly clear to prospective students who may misinterpret your post to mean that they can afford a $1.3 million house on a pharmacist wage, it will not happen by any stretch of imagination. And i’m sure you are aware the reason you live in a $1.3 million house is due to the recent market hike, in reality it is likely a 5-600k house, if that. Even at 5-600k you had the huge benefit of becoming a pharmacist when tuition was almost free compared to today, no 15,000 pharmacists every year willing to do your job for less, and you had decades over recent, new or prospective students to save. Not mention you may have even bought your previous house during one of the market crashes, sold high, bought again, etc. which would not be a product of you being a pharmacist.

In today’s day and age, new grads with their 75-80k/year salaries, 150-200k debt, and record inflation would be extremely lucky to afford ANY house, much less a 500k one.

This...bought my first house just last year in my mid 30s after grinding for 7 years post grad (no SO to supplement income, savings) after finally breaking even. Because debt is the American way of life & getting too old to be missing out on stuff like owning a home

 

[mentos]

I would assume it’s because they bought their homes 10+ years ago

Yep there's homeowners in LA and San Diego that bought their house for nothing in the 70s and hardly pay any property tax. I believe their property taxes are based on the price of the home when it was sold, unlike the rest of the country. So it's like rent control but for property taxes. These houses will get passed down to their families so new homebuyers basically have no chance.

 

[JustFillIt]

You’re thinking of the other dude with like 5 kids or whatever. I presume at some point you get economies of scale when it comes to children (older kid babysits the younger ones, hand me downs, no longer caring if they have nice things, etc) but as a childless adult I am only speculating.

As a father of 5 (don’t think I’m the guy your talking about though) I would like to confirm that as you go - you certainly stop caring about the quality of what they receive.

My first child - all organic food, heavy on the vegetables and fresh foods.

My last child - I stumble out of bed…. Crack open a can of spaghettios…. Dump it into a bowl and microwave it for breakfast…. Turn on SpongeBob and carry on.

 

[confettiflyer]

Yep there's homeowners in LA and San Diego that bought their house for nothing in the 70s and hardly pay any property tax. I believe their property taxes are based on the price of the home when it was sold, unlike the rest of the country. So it's like rent control but for property taxes. These houses will get passed down to their families so new homebuyers basically have no chance.

This is correct. The key to living in CA really is inherited housing. My parents’ house is worth like $750k, but their tax bill is about $4300/yr.

The other coping mechanism is multi-generational housing. Yes, my house is big, but we have 3 generations living in it (yay free child care, another mechanism).

They’ve crimped the laws a bit, so when I inherit my parents’ home eventually, I will need to make it my primary home for like a year before being able to put it on the rental market. If i push it straight into a rental property, it will trigger a reassessment despite the familial change in title.

So when people talk about the out of control COL in CA, the housing cost drives most of that calculation. If you can remove that from your personal calculus, living here isn’t that expensive.

 

[mentos]

This is correct. The key to living in CA really is inherited housing. My parents’ house is worth like $750k, but their tax bill is about $4300/yr.

The other coping mechanism is multi-generational housing. Yes, my house is big, but we have 3 generations living in it (yay free child care, another mechanism).

They’ve crimped the laws a bit, so when I inherit my parents’ home eventually, I will need to make it my primary home for like a year before being able to put it on the rental market. If i push it straight into a rental property, it will trigger a reassessment despite the familial change in title.

So when people talk about the out of control COL in CA, the housing cost drives most of that calculation. If you can remove that from your personal calculus, living here isn’t that expensive.

On top of that, any house built after 2000 or so has a HOA. Even detached single family homes have to pay hundreds of dollars for a stupid HOA and follow their stupid rules!

 

[confettiflyer]

On top of that, any house built after 2000 or so has a HOA. Even detached single family homes have to pay hundreds of dollars for a stupid HOA and follow their stupid rules!

Not really, lol. But yes, the nicer areas have (essentially all of South OC and new subdivisions in Silicon Valley), at minimum, CC&R’s, but can be +/- HOA on the enforcement front. There’s also Mello-Roos/CFD taxes, but usually those (and HOA assessments) can proportionally reduce the price of the house itself (as in, you take the totality of payments into account).

It’s like lovely beach front condos in Hawaii for $600k-$1.2M (that’s cheap!), but have an $1100/mo HOA assessment (nevermind).

So yeah, +++ for the inherited housing bit.

 

[confettiflyer]

Before covid, SoCal housing was expensive but still very doable with a pharmacist salary. If you had bought a just a few rental properties from 2013-2019, then you would be sitting on a pot of gold today…high rent with sky high appreciation and low property tax. But too many pharmacists didn’t have the risk tolerance to leverage their high starting salary.

lolol you just don’t go around buying a few SoCal rental properties on $60/hr…unless you’re buying in the 909/951 boonies.

Oh, and those same renters stopped paying you rent in 2020 and you really couldn’t evict them until now. Goodluck trying to sell the home with a non-paying tenant and paused eviction proceedings. Fun times.

 

[JustFillIt]

Before covid, SoCal housing was expensive but still very doable with a pharmacist salary. If you had bought a just a few rental properties from 2013-2019, then you would be sitting on a pot of gold today…high rent with sky high appreciation and low property tax. But too many pharmacists didn’t have the risk tolerance to leverage their high starting salary.

I was busy spending all our money on my wife’s snow baby figurine addiction.

Someday these things are going to be worth so much

 

[mentos]

Before covid, SoCal housing was expensive but still very doable with a pharmacist salary. If you had bought a just a few rental properties from 2013-2019, then you would be sitting on a pot of gold today…high rent with sky high appreciation and low property tax. But too many pharmacists didn’t have the risk tolerance to leverage their high starting salary.

This BMB?

 

[confettiflyer]

Of course you can. You could have purchased a nice rental for $300-400 k during that timeframe. That same rental should give you $3000-$4000/month in rent today. Rent it out for 1 or 2 years and then the bank would count 75% of rent as “income” and this would cancel your rental “debt” (aka mortgage) allowing you to buy more rentals.

Yeah some landlords got screwed over by rent moratorium by LA County but other counties are not like that.

50 miles east of LA is not exactly the “boonies”. Inland Empire has close to 5m people. If Inland Empire is a state, its population is comparable to South Carolina. Besides, it doesn’t matter because you are not living there. You only care about rent and appreciation which have outpaced LA County.

Ok, so slumlording in the 909. Got it.

But still, $60/hr, even if you were debt, childcare, and mortgage free living in much more lush environments (or South OC)…it’s gonna be a stretch qualifying for mortgages. The only way you pull this off is if you have a) a ton of just extra cash stockpiled, b) leveraged to high hell, c) drain all available retirement vehicles, d) some combo of the above.

 

[JustFillIt]

I like how you resort to calling me a “slumlord” without knowing anything about me.

I don’t want to go back and forth because you can easily YouTube it. In short, you need two primary things:

1) Qualify for a mortgage which means your debt to income must be low enough to qualify. Like I had previously stated, banks typically count 75% rent (or 70% depending on the bank) as “income” after 1 or 2 years. Thereby, erasing your debt assuming 75% of your rent > mortgage, property tax, insurance.

2) You need 30% down payment for a rental. So for a $300 k rental, you would need $90 k. I got this money from saving, investing in the booming stock market, and by doing cash out refi of my rental as it went up in value.

I did this 2013-2019…rinse and repeat. It is not rocket science if you are willing to do it.

I rented a property out once - the renters turned out to be a bunch of potheads and they wrecked the house. It was 60k to fix it up and then my family moved in behind them. A wax seal went bad on one of the toilets and it would gush out water every time they took a dump - rushing dump water all over the floor. They just didn’t care - they kept using it and did not mind the smell/mess. I had to clean the sub floor with a wire brush to get rid of it.

I understand there is money in rentals. But it’s just so annoying. I won’t ever do it again.

 

[mentos]

I like how you resort to calling me a “slumlord” without knowing anything about me.

We know plenty about you 😉

 

[PharmDminus]

Before covid, SoCal housing was expensive but still very doable with a pharmacist salary. If you had bought a just a few rental properties from 2013-2019, then you would be sitting on a pot of gold today…high rent with sky high appreciation and low property tax. But too many pharmacists didn’t have the risk tolerance to leverage their high starting salary.

welcome back BMB how is that $700 designer belt holding up. with all those CA rentals, and the stock market down, u may have surpassed Momus in net worth

 

[confettiflyer]

I like how you resort to calling me a “slumlord” without knowing anything about me.

I don’t want to go back and forth because you can easily YouTube it. In short, you need two primary things:

1) Qualify for a mortgage which means your debt to income must be low enough to qualify. Like I had previously stated, banks typically count 75% rent (or 70% depending on the bank) as “income” after 1 or 2 years. Thereby, erasing your debt assuming 75% of your rent > mortgage, property tax, insurance.

2) You need 30% down payment for a rental. So for a $300 k rental, you would need $90 k. I got this money from saving, investing in the booming stock market, and by doing cash out refi of my rental as it went up in value.

I did this 2013-2019…rinse and repeat. It is not rocket science if you are willing to do it.

Bahahaha I’m getting mansplaned to about DTI and non-primary rental mortgages.

So basically, you’re an overleveraged 909 slumlord who used the same serial cash out refi playbook from 2004-2008 ten years later.

I mean yeah, you get your market timing right and you somehow avoid the hazards of bad tenants, you’ll execute and do well…but you confirm my argument that a lowly rph making $60/hr in SoCal needs specific circumstances and risk tolerance to pull off a rental empire.