How much impact is this forum having on enrollment?

[JustAPedicurist]

If any? Seems like leadership thinks so. But not sure if Gen Z’ers even know what a forum is in 2023. Now if we created tiktoks and started bashing podiatry that might change things.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[wakaflocka88]

It’s too bad they can’t accept or see the truth. Not our fault

 

[Feli]

I'm not sure that it matters.

I think the SDN discourse is good for podiatry.

It balances out the fluffers who promote podiatry as the best thing ever... when their personal income or positions as directors, faculty, deans, employers of associate DPMs, etc depends on more and cheaper DPM labors.

The point of SDN is just to discuss stuff... jobs, pt care, profession issues and structure, residencies, CME, coding and practice... whatever.

The goal isn't really to bash podiatry or the many inadequate residencies or the greed and saturation that more schools brings. Those things are sure to come up as they absolutely do affect the DPM job opportunities, job quality... definitely affect the pay.

The saturation of podiatry and the ROI will continue to be what hurts enrollment, though.
I think the podiatrist job itself will always be a draw... help ppl, do procedures, be challenged.
Some ppl will knee-jerk from pre-med to podiatry school without doing their research.
...but MANY people see the tuition/loans going up much faster than incomes rise.
People see more grads and schools - yet very few good jobs that'll easily pay the loans and get them ahead.
They have seen this for a long time for chiro and counselor schools and more recently with pharma and OD and others where the ROI tanks as saturation and tuition inflation hurt even the best and smartest students.

As to how effective or impactful SDN may or may not be is interesting but not the main goal. The smart people figure things out. I see a ton of good questions asked here and I have gotten hundreds of PMs through the years (some people who post, most other just readers or even family of pod students/residents who read). People figure things out at all stages of the game:

• Pre-pod (decent profession but increasingly saturated, very important to graduate top half or even much better, make connections)
• Early pod student (getting one of the limited high quality residencies vs crap program makes huge difference)
• Late pod student (mediocre grades so will need to be flexible and creative in residency and job options)
• Resident (job market is very rough even if you do get good training, and we make much less $ or per RVU than MDs, easily replaced)
• Early attending (nearly all employers will underpay/overwork you in one way or another... but at least know common tricks)

I always tell them DPM works for me, but it's not an easy path. You need to be prepared to be more realistic and frugal (and/or crooked) than MDs if you want to retire early-ish or live very well as a DPM. You need to know you might have to be flexible on locations and create your own luck in terms of employment. There are many bad residencies and very few good employed jobs. The jobs do not come to you, as they tend to with MD or something with good ROI and demand level.

In the end, in pod - or anything, it's always about wanting what you have instead of having what you [thought you] want. Fitness and many hobbies and good personal relationships are low cost and what makes life good and happy... but money is always important and the main reason we work. You have to figure out how to use money to leverage your free time in terms of a decent weekly schedule, pay debts, fund retirement, etc. That is hard even when you have a PP with competition all around or a hospital job where you deserve a raise or less call but there are 100 colleagues and new grads who want your job. Those are the of perils of saturation - for DPM or any profession.

 

[Adam Smasher]

I keep saying, pre-health students aren't stupid. They can run the numbers. Everything here is sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[heybrother]

I'm not sure how much impact we're having but in general anything that discusses this profession is going to shed light on our gross inadequacies. All of those APMA goons who came here have presided over a profession where the MCAT score is massively sub-50th percentile, the attrition approaches 20+% etc. This is a profession that exists for decades where none of the schools would post their graduation outcomes. The CPME outcomes data becoming available while I was in school was one of the best things to ever happen and its still problematic and flawed.

1. There have always been sites that said "podiatry is bad". When I first looked into podiatry there was an old site on Angelfire called "Podiatry Bytes" or something like that. The Podpost guy has probably been around forever also.

2. When I first read "Podiatry Bytes" the guy to my memory was claiming that podiatrists make $50K a year. I remember thinking - no way can that be true only to be offered $75K on my first job decades later. But I'm a doctor he said...

3. There is a very fair website near the top of the list (So You Want to Be a Podiatrist | Med School Insiders) when you search for "Should I be a podiatrist". This person has no axe to grind, writes generic articles for professions and says what we already know. Long degree. Big cost. Makes less than other medical specialists.

4. Nursing as a profession is exploding in popularity and money due to their incredibly lax education and standards. This is a fairly frequent development but there is no doubt that their ascendancy is faster than ours. We added the ankle in Alabama. They are adding unrestricted practices right.

5. Podiatry has dramatically increased its tuition cost over the last 10 years. When I firsted started podiatry school I remember discussing with friends / family / the wife etc the fact that at some point podiatry had to cost too much. I personally thought that when tuition broke $40K no one would do it... Here we are.

6. If you sit down and write variations of "how much do podiatrists make" on google - you are going to get tremendously variable answers, and a lot of them are lower than anything you'll ever see for an MD. When people first started posting here blaming us I remember searching a few different websites that claimed podiatry's average state salary was in some cases under $100K. If you are a skeptical pre-whatever and you see sub-100 salaries you are left asking yourself all sorts of questions like "what?!".

7. I don't know if the leadership of this profession knows this - but a lot of podiatrists have offices that are gross. Many podiatrists are not good ambassadors for our brand. I've seen the offices of most of my colleagues in town - the 80s called, they want their paint back. I saw plenty of that 4th year too. Nail nippers sitting out on counters with the little alcohol dabbers and vials of who knows what. The profession, our leadership, old podiatrists offices - most of them need a make over. A lot of podiatrists treat their offices like an old car they are trying to squeeze every mile from and it shows. I went to a dermatologist office a couple of years ago. I left with a biopsy and certainty that we needed new light fixtures, new paint, and new floors.

8. We used to regularly have pre-pods saying things on here like "podiatrists make bonuses". I do miss those opportunities to explain to people that 30% of a low number paid by Medicare is a low number. Here's the biggest truth about this profession - podiatrists do not value each other so why should anyone else value us.

9. added after the fact - Love it or hate it, there has been a change in the balance of "labor" and "management" over the last few years ie. how employees interact with companies, how profit is divided, how compensation is shared. Perhaps that all falls apart in the coming years, but the sort of people who think employees should have a say, be compensated, etc are probably not the sort of people who who aren't going to be entranced by our education and compensation model.

 

[Hybrocure]

The whole push for parity to be equal to MDs and DOs only made equal the cost of schooling

 

[JustAPedicurist]

The whole push for parity to be equal to MDs and DOs only made equal the cost of schooling

And almost a whole year is dedicated to off service rotations which is good because you learn medicine from podiatry schools… but also our real training is basically 2 years of surgery which is still inadequate at a lot of these lax programs.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

None. Enrollment was trending down for years according to AACPM data. We are a blip on the prehealth radar when googling "how to become a doctor with a low mcat score"

 

[Pronation]

Yo all I’m sayin is that I looooove suckin on toes!

 

[Prehealth1011]

I briefly considered Podiatry back in the day. I know people say shadow shadow shadow. I did. Both podiatrists I shadowed changed the subject when I brought up salaries. People just don’t talk about jobs or salaries in real life at least not to me

SDN has been super helpful for me. This is where I heard about practicelink, doccafe, mgma first. Kids are smart these days the M3 who I let out early today knew how much everyone makes. They’ll just find the better financial options, with or without sdn

 

[PikminOC]

The whole push for parity to be equal to MDs and DOs only made equal the cost of schooling

It pushed the opening of many DO for profit schools that cost more than MD schools.

 

[Shiyuan]

It pushed the opening of many DO for profit schools that cost more than MD schools.

Excellent profile icon 👍🏻

 

[Feli]

It pushed the opening of many DO for profit schools that cost more than MD schools.

Yeah, this is a crazy problem to have...
Even if they AAMC doesn't open too many new schools and ACGME and the specialties keep residencies high quality and finite, DO schools sure can open many schools and big schools.

The limiting factor is that the DO schools will eventually have trouble with USMLE or residency shortage (like Caribb MD schools did)... or be largely relegated to the bottom residency spots that USA MDs don't want. The only workaround to cause true saturation and problems would be if DOs opened up a bunch of their own residencies, but I think that got basically solved with ACGME and not AOA regulating and overseeing residencies?

At least the only thing crippling DPM, PharmD, DC, OD, etc incomes is... their own degree/profession and the endless new schools and exponential tuitions. They are doing a terrific job of it, though. It is no coincidence that almost all of the newly minted podiatry schools are at for-profit DO schools.

 

[Boba Foot]

30% of a low number paid by Medicare is a low number

I think SDN should just pin this quote and that’s enough said, drop the mic, we all go home. Good night.

 

[air bud]

I think SDN should just pin this quote and that’s enough said, drop the mic, we all go home. Good night.

Or this....hint they are not continuing to work because they love the profession

 

[newfeet]

I don’t know. I can say SDN played a big role in me not applying to the Caribbean medical schools. They seemed too risky just so I can call myself doctor. Bad pay or good pay at least I would get a residency with podiatry and a license. It seemed like the safe bet. Then the residency shortage happened… I was still able to get one but I would have been pissed. 🤔

 

[deleted1093615]

I think it’s played a bigger role than some give it credit for. At least what I’ve seen is more and more students are seeing what’s being posted on here and starting to ask questions. So maybe it’s not the largest deciding factor in someone not pursuing this field but i think it allows for doubt/questions that might otherwise not be there.
example; a student reads about low salary on here. Then they might ask a pod they shadow about it and find out that the low starting salary is real.

 

[Hybrocure]

I think it’s played a bigger role than some give it credit for. At least what I’ve seen is more and more students are seeing what’s being posted on here and starting to ask questions. So maybe it’s not the largest deciding factor in someone not pursuing this field but i think it allows for doubt/questions that might otherwise not be there.
example; a student reads about low salary on here. Then they might ask a pod they shadow about it and find out that the low starting salary is real.
also I think that at my school more students are asking questions to the faculty about things that are seen on SDN.

Or rather when you shadow the idea of income is a bit skewed since most of us probably shadowed a private practice owner

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Or this....hint they are not continuing to work because they love the profession



View attachment 372291

the layout of PM News is from the 90's. it's so nasty just like an old podiatrist office

 

[newfeet]

I think it’s played a bigger role than some give it credit for. At least what I’ve seen is more and more students are seeing what’s being posted on here and starting to ask questions. So maybe it’s not the largest deciding factor in someone not pursuing this field but i think it allows for doubt/questions that might otherwise not be there.
example; a student reads about low salary on here. Then they might ask a pod they shadow about it and find out that the low starting salary is real.
also I think that at my school more students are asking questions to the faculty about things that are seen on SDN.

Good for them. I didn’t think too much past residency when I started school. It was the goal.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Student loans expected to be unpaused 60 days from after the debt bill is signed.

 

[heybrother]

I think it’s played a bigger role than some give it credit for. At least what I’ve seen is more and more students are seeing what’s being posted on here and starting to ask questions. So maybe it’s not the largest deciding factor in someone not pursuing this field but i think it allows for doubt/questions that might otherwise not be there.
example; a student reads about low salary on here. Then they might ask a pod they shadow about it and find out that the low starting salary is real.
also I think that at my school more students are asking questions to the faculty about things that are seen on SDN.

Its tough being a student/pre-pod. You hear all these voices.

Someone on Reddit recently posted that they'd rather get 30% of their collections than a base of $220K. That's fascinating because $220K/30% is $733K in collections. You are free to follow that person's advice down the path of sadness.

 

[Hybrocure]

Student loans expected to be unpaused 60 days from after the debt bill is signed.

Mine show payment is due Oct 19

 

[AttackNME]

Its tough being a student/pre-pod. You hear all these voices.

Someone on Reddit recently posted that they'd rather get 30% of their collections than a base of $220K. That's fascinating because $220K/30% is $733K in collections. You are free to follow that person's advice down the path of sadness.

$733K in collections isn’t hard to get. What do people collect on average?

 

[heybrother]

If you bring in $733K and keep 50% of it you are obviously over $350K. The APMA 2018 survey which is the most recent says 12.9% of podiatrists earn $325K or more.

It goes without saying that we should all have a good laugh that I'm citing Podiatry Management surveys, but you put out what you have - this is the most recent I could find in 1 minute of looking and yeah - its citing pandemic data.

https://podiatrym.com/pdf/2022/2/Survey222Web.pdf

If you collect $733K you are very successful - probably.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

If you bring in $733K and keep 50% of it you are obviously over $350K. The APMA 2018 survey which is the most recent says 12.9% of podiatrists earn $325K or more.

It goes without saying that we should all have a good laugh that I'm citing Podiatry Management surveys, but you put out what you have - this is the most recent I could find in 1 minute of looking and yeah - its citing pandemic data.

https://podiatrym.com/pdf/2022/2/Survey222Web.pdf

View attachment 372323
View attachment 372324

If you collect $733K you are very successful - probably.

What’s the apma survey you speak of

 

[heybrother]

What’s the apma survey you speak of

APMA has it locked so didn't attach it. I'll PM you.

 

[Hybrocure]

$733K in collections isn’t hard to get. What do people collect on average?

I think it depends on the practice and time spent. Unless you join as an associate into a practice that has a fully booked 30+ a day schedule for their associate I’d imagine most are lucky to break 350 collections their first year or two. As they become better known/established without hopping around and stick with it then yeah those collections would rise. This is assuming you aren’t call slaving or throwing on ex fixes and doing crazy recons as a new grad.

I would wager that 733k collections in PP is fairly uncommon for a new grad in this current climate. More likely for someone 5+ years out well known with a patient base who will follow them.

 

[Feeter]

If you bring in $733K and keep 50% of it you are obviously over $350K. The APMA 2018 survey which is the most recent says 12.9% of podiatrists earn $325K or more.

It goes without saying that we should all have a good laugh that I'm citing Podiatry Management surveys, but you put out what you have - this is the most recent I could find in 1 minute of looking and yeah - its citing pandemic data.

https://podiatrym.com/pdf/2022/2/Survey222Web.pdf

View attachment 372323
View attachment 372324

If you collect $733K you are very successful - probably.

What is the median net income according to APMA survey?

 

[heybrother]

What is the median net income according to APMA survey?

Looks to be $167K for employees and $175K for owners. The survey almost assuredly skews old.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Looks to be $167K for employees and $175K for owners. The survey almost assuredly skews old.

$167,000 in 2023 is nothing

 

[air bud]

Looks to be $167K for employees and $175K for owners. The survey almost assuredly skews old.

I think you mean towards the typical podiatrist

 

[Feli]

$167,000 in 2023 is nothing

It's about $10k or $11k/mo net after taxes and not terrible... plenty to live middle class in most places, put away a bit for retirement, vacation a bit, etc.

The problem is the student loan payment will be about $3k/mo (extended) or $4k/mo (standard 15yr) or more per month.
...so, you are then at $7k/mo or so net wages. That's pay for a nurse, contractor, manager or some other skilled ~$50/hr worker. Not ideal.

Roth is good, but anything one puts away in their 401 beyond match or cash account or whatever should really just be put onto student loans (or saved to start a solo PP). Otherwise, the "investment" gains basically just get offset by massive student loan interest.

That average DPM income is certainly not enough to be a solo breadwinner for a family in any decent area or at anything more than middle class standards... not even close. Fancy cars or vacations or private schools are definitely not in the cards unless the spouse is financially competent. I think that's where the big disconnect and dissatisfaction comes for a lot of DPMs who had thought they'd have a SAHM driving his BMW, her Audi, going to Europe once a year, retire around 60, and have the kids at Country Day School (aka MD income lifestyle). The sooner they realize she works too, they drive Hondas, they go to National Parks, they work until 70, and the kids go to a good public school (DPM lifestyle maybe)... the happier they'll be.

 

[Feeter]

Looks to be $167K for employees and $175K for owners. The survey almost assuredly skews old.

I think this survey also had numbers for "benefits" section on top of salary for private practice. As in tax benefits, CME money and travel cost, maybe company car and phone etc which can be substantial but I am not in PP.

 

[Feeter]

It's about $10k or $11k/mo net after taxes and not terrible... plenty to live middle class in most places, put away a bit for retirement, vacation a bit, etc.

The problem is the student loan payment will be about $3k/mo (extended) or $4k/mo (standard 15yr) or more per month.
...so, you are then at $7k/mo or so net wages. That's pay for a nurse, contractor, manager or some other skilled ~$50/hr worker. Not ideal.

Roth is good, but anything one puts away in their 401 beyond match or cash account or whatever should really just be put onto student loans (or saved to start a solo PP). Otherwise, the "investment" gains basically just get offset by massive student loan interest.

That average DPM income is certainly not enough to be a solo breadwinner for a family in any decent area or at anything more than middle class standards... not even close. Fancy cars or vacations or private schools are definitely not in the cards unless the spouse is financially competent. I think that's where the big disconnect and dissatisfaction comes for a lot of DPMs who had thought they'd have a SAHM driving his BMW, her Audi, going to Europe once a year, retire around 60, and have the kids at Country Day School (aka MD income lifestyle). The sooner they realize she works too, they drive Hondas, they go to National Parks, they work until 70, and the kids go to a good public school (DPM lifestyle maybe)... the happier they'll be.

Vacations at National parks pretty awesome!

 

[Feeter]

$167,000 in 2023 is nothing

Depends how many hours they are working too. I'd take 167k working 30 hours a week.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Depends how many hours they are working too. I'd take 167k working 30 hours a week.

Yeah well no ****

 

[Pronation]

Depends how many hours they are working too. I'd take 167k working 30 hours a week.

For the 50th time reposting this, any associate making 167k is working at minimum 40 hours and they would make approximately double that doing the same amount of work at a hospital (with way better benefits). Also to new readers: good luck making even 150k as a PP associate in this massively oversaturated profession.

 

[podiatryresident]

For the 50th time reposting this, any associate making 167k is working at minimum 40 hours and they would make approximately double that doing the same amount of work at a hospital (with way better benefits). Also to new readers: good luck making even 150k as a PP associate in this massively oversaturated profession.

I recently talked to one of associates working for my PD, he said if I stay after graduation, don't expect anything more than 110k @@

 

[heybrother]

I think this survey also had numbers for "benefits" section on top of salary for private practice. As in tax benefits, CME money and travel cost, maybe company car and phone etc which can be substantial but I am not in PP.

There are benefits sections but no specific amounts are quantified and the data is displayed in a limited format that makes drawing conclusions difficult. I tried looking at the total respondents against some of the benefits, but it occurs to me that some of the study population is so old that in fact they may be on Medicare.

This table supposedly has 508 overall respondents.

This table had 486 respondents. I'm not sure why the table n's don't match - ie. did people not describe their practice type and therefore they couldn't be assigned to a group.

n = 496

The APMA doesn't categorize this data in the sort of "antagonist" head to head data this forum would love to argue ie. total number of GP Podiatry Employed who have and don't have health insurance. You could look at the above and say "hey, more owners than employees" but owners are the dominant population in the study ie. 65% of the population.

The whole thing actually becomes more complicated.

For example - let's say I give you $100 to buy health insurance - you've technically received a benefit but the premium for 1 person's health insurance is about $500 for a meh plan.

I give no 401k match but I let you contribute (danger, safe harbor) - I've technically given you a benefit but there's a big difference between this and receiving 4% or 8%.

 

[icebreaker32]

The largest problem with podiatry is the job market/saturation. This unfortunately is a major, major problem for any profession to have.

Podiatry jobs that are typically available have low base salaries, poor benefits, no loan repayment options and no signing bonuses.

Most MD jobs have high base salaries, good benefits, and signing bonuses. Many jobs have loan repayment assistance. Choosing where you want to live is not a major concern.

Should we compare podiatry to MD/DO?....yes we should at least to primary care with the cost and length of our training.

Many MDs/DOs in primary care still question their ROI and say they should have considered either other career choices like computers/being an engineer or should have gone into a higher paying specialty.

Well if primary care questions their ROI where does that leave podiatry? Podiatry is way, way worse on average. Our job market is horrible….not just salary wise, but benefits and availability of jobs also.

Becoming a midlevel offers a good ROI and will be in great demand for decades. This makes being a podiatrist a hard sell for most who do their research. Some might not be able to even get in PA school that get into podiatry school, which is sad, but even most of those could become a RN then advance their degree to a NP.

Podiatry as a career makes a lot sense if you can guarantee you will be in the top 25 percent. For most others being a midlevel or improving your application if you have a good chance at DO school probably makes more sense.

 

[Feli]

$733K in collections isn’t hard to get. What do people collect on average?

I would say that's about average (for PP... owners and associates). That would be averaging $150/visit for 20pt/day for 20d/mo worked on average.

This is assuming the common basic podiatry private practice (E&M, injections, DME, OTC, etc)...
This is assuming little or none of the questionable stuff (own path lab or other ancillaries, fake wound grafts, custom DME in office, over-utilize testing/DME in office, kickbacks on refers, "progressive" billing, etc). Those will collect a whole lot more (until fraud or overutilization audits slam the brakes?).

...The vast majority of PP associates, especially new ones, will still be below that mark, though. There are a lot of reasons...
-employer screws them and lies about collection numbers (any of 100 ways)
-they aren't busy enough
-they aren't fast enough... still developing style and efficiency with pts and EMR (esp first year on the job)
-they aren't savvy enough, new to PP and coding and billing
-they're given some of the poorer payer pts, global visit pts, etc
-they have to use some time commuting to the hospital for consults/surgery instead of clinic
-did I mention employer screws them and lies about collection numbers (any of 100 ways)

If anyone is employed and collecting $700k (not just billing that much), they should be getting quite a bit more than 30%.
The overhead of associate's malprac, EMR, license, hospitals, etc are fixed expenses, so you definitely need an escalator at some mark(s).

...The reason a lot of solo owners don't collect that much is probably just because they don't work that much. There is not much reason to, and it's usually smarter to just trim some lesser payers at that point. If you have overhead around 50%, would you rather collect $500 or 600k gross and take 6wks vaca or 4days/wk ... or take 2wks vaca and run 5days/wk to collect 800k or even $1M+ gross? The answer is usually they don't really care to do the latter (and it'll have more staff headache), so they just hire an associate and/or enjoy their free time once the game has been won.

 

[billBOB213]

The largest problem with podiatry is the job market/saturation. This unfortunately is a major, major problem for any profession to have.

Podiatry jobs that are typically available have low base salaries, poor benefits, no loan repayment options and no signing bonuses.

Most MD jobs have high base salaries, good benefits, and signing bonuses. Many jobs have loan repayment assistance. Choosing where you want to live is not a major concern.

Should we compare podiatry to MD/DO?....yes we should at least to primary care with the cost and length of our training.

Many MDs/DOs in primary care still question their ROI and say they should have considered either other career choices like computers/being an engineer or should have gone into a higher paying specialty.

Well if primary care questions their ROI where does that leave podiatry? Podiatry is way, way worse on average. Our job market is horrible….not just salary wise, but benefits and availability of jobs also.

Becoming a midlevel offers a good ROI and will be in great demand for decades. This makes being a podiatrist a hard sell for most who do their research. Some might not be able to even get in PA school that get into podiatry school, which is sad, but even most of those could become a RN then advance their degree to a NP.

Podiatry as a career makes a lot sense if you can guarantee you will be in the top 25 percent. For most others being a midlevel or improving your application if you have a good chance at DO school probably makes more sense.

This is a great post, sums it up perfectly.
Podiatry higher ups and mustache pods can get upset, but this lays it out pretty good.
I’m happy with my job, and my salary, buuuut as a profession this just isn’t the way for most people-which is a shame considering the work we put in to become DPMs

 

[619]

I recently talked to one of associates working for my PD, he said if I stay after graduation, don't expect anything more than 110k @@

Funny how an associate is actively trying to prevent his boss from bringing in a new associate because the current associate knows fully well that a new associate will dilute what they have and further reduce each new patient visit per doctor.

 

[podiatryresident]

Funny how an associate is actively trying to prevent his boss from bringing in a new associate because the current associate knows fully well that a new associate will dilute what they have and further reduce each new patient visit per doctor.

That's true! this profession is a joke :|

 

[AttackNME]

I would say that's about average (for PP... owners and associates). That would be averaging $150/visit for 20pt/day for 20d/mo worked on average.

This is assuming the common basic podiatry private practice (E&M, injections, DME, OTC, etc)...
This is assuming little or none of the questionable stuff (own path lab or other ancillaries, fake wound grafts, custom DME in office, over-utilize testing/DME in office, kickbacks on refers, "progressive" billing, etc). Those will collect a whole lot more (until fraud or overutilization audits slam the brakes?).

...The vast majority of PP associates, especially new ones, will still be below that mark, though. There are a lot of reasons...
-employer screws them and lies about collection numbers (any of 100 ways)
-they aren't busy enough
-they aren't fast enough... still developing style and efficiency with pts and EMR (esp first year on the job)
-they aren't savvy enough, new to PP and coding and billing
-they're given some of the poorer payer pts, global visit pts, etc
-they have to use some time commuting to the hospital for consults/surgery instead of clinic
-did I mention employer screws them and lies about collection numbers (any of 100 ways)

If anyone is employed and collecting $700k (not just billing that much), they should be getting quite a bit more than 30%.
The overhead of associate's malprac, EMR, license, hospitals, etc are fixed expenses, so you definitely need an escalator at some mark(s).

...The reason a lot of solo owners don't collect that much is probably just because they don't work that much. There is not much reason to, and it's usually smarter to just trim some lesser payers at that point. If you have overhead around 50%, would you rather collect $500 or 600k gross and take 6wks vaca or 4days/wk ... or take 2wks vaca and run 5days/wk to collect 800k or even $1M+ gross? The answer is usually they don't really care to do the latter (and it'll have more staff headache), so they just hire an associate and/or enjoy their free time once the game has been won.

i wonder what are people collecting that makes them leave their crappy PP jobs? if people aren’t meeting their bonus at 30% with 120k salary, that’s 400k?

 

[Feli]

i wonder what are people collecting that makes them leave their crappy PP jobs? if people aren’t meeting their bonus at 30% with 120k salary, that’s 400k?

I think only the owners really know what they're collecting. So that's the problem.

PP associates who are actually paid fairly are much less common than associates who are ripped off.

There are just tons of ways to cheat associates, and it's real common in podiatry, as above.

That's not to mention that pod PP which offer true partnership where ownership doesnt snip 10-20+ percent indefinitely are a real black swan.

...It could always be worse, though... and it may become with new pod schools. Chiros generally do not even have groups or associates. Two thirds are in solo office as they're so saturated they don't want to risk bringing competition nearby - or dont have enough patients/demand to even try. They average about 75k/yr with 150k student loans (but no residency to compound the interest). So, having six figure or sometimes even 200k+ DPM PP jobs with outside chance of partner (or supergroup jobs with a bit more $ but no chance partner) and available in most cities and areas suddenly seems ok. Its still a terrible ROI, but thats because podiatry.

 

[AttackNME]

I think only the owners really know what they're collecting. So that's the problem.

PP associates who are actually paid fairly are much less common than associates who are ripped off.

There are just tons of ways to cheat associates, and it's real common in podiatry, as above.

That's not to mention that pod uPP which offer true partnership where ownership doesnt snip 10-20+ percent indefinitely are a real black swan.

...It could always be worse, though... and it may become with new pod schools. Chiros generally do not even have groups or associates. Two thirds are in solo office as they're so saturated they don't want to risk bringing competition nearby - or dont have enough patients/demand to even try. They average about 75k/yr with 150k student loans (but no residency to compound the interest). So, having six figure or sometimes even 200k+ DPM PP jobs with outside chance of partner (or supergroup jobs with a bit more $ but no chance partner) and available in most cities and areas suddenly seems ok. Its still a terrible ROI, but thats because podiatry.

Good points. Comes down to many PP owners not willing to let young podiatrists be more successful than them, and feeling entitled to the associate’s collections.

 

[icebreaker32]

Good points. Comes down to many PP owners not willing to let young podiatrists be more successful than them, and feeling entitled to the associate’s collections.

The MD world believe it or not was not much better once upon a time 70 years ago. Plenty would work for a senior doctor as an associate doctor for a few years and then move on if not busy, paid fairly or offered partnership etc.

It sadly comes down to supply and demand. We are lacking as far as organizational demand and have significant saturation in private practice in most markets.

One can potentially do well in podiatry. Some organizational jobs do exist and one can create their own demand over time in a local market.

The market in general speaks for itself that were are very saturated.

Since we are very saturated owners will only be generous with associates if they make more money by doing so. If paying more and keeping a podiatrist longer and offering a fair path to partnership makes them more money than flipping associates they would do it.

Obviously in most practices in most markets the owners make more money by being cheap and flipping associates. Why? Because we are saturated.

In certain markets hiring a well trained and personable podiatrist that stays long term as a partner helps the practice as a whole grow and not only lowers overhead for all, but allows sharing purchases of expensive items that generate more revenue for all etc. There are not enough of these situations. Why? Because we are saturated.

I personally feel it is disrespectful to hire a 7 year or more trained doctor and not offer a guaranteed fair salary and good benefits for a couple years, but capitalism does not work that way. If this was the case you could also remove half (or more) of the limited podiatry jobs already present on job sites.

 

[AttackNME]

I personally feel it is disrespectful to hire a 7 year or more trained doctor and not offer a guaranteed fair salary and good benefits for a couple years, but capitalism does not work that way. If this was the case you could also remove half (or more) of the limited podiatry jobs already present on job sites.

Let’s say you’re in solo practice and collect 700k with 50% overhead, so you take home 350k. What is a fair salary to hire the new associate? (assuming this associate would collect 300k in their first year without impacting your collections.)