End of Grade Replacement?

[IslandStyle808]

No. I read what you said and know you're a MS-1. I agree with everything you stated.

That doesn't make up for several others who don't think this change is going to make a difference in matriculation statistics. Or the guy who just "doesn't agree with grade replacement" or whatever.

My mistake, yeah it is still a terrible situation. I've seen so many hypocrites through the years being on here. The pro-DO applicants who get into an MD school and then start trashing DOs. Then the dudes who are grateful in getting into any new DO school and when they get into an older school, they start trashing new DO schools.

I pretty much took off my status altogether because of this hypocrisy. It pretty much feels like COCA just does whatever it wants and doesn't have any standards of its own, and the pre-medical applicants suffer because of this.

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[zero0]

This is terrible news.

And it's pretty funny how the individuals who don't think it is a big deal are people who are 1) current medical students (i.e. poster above) or 2) people already accepted to medical school.

Oh it's a big deal. Absolutely it is, but probably not int he way you think.

Yes, this sucks big time for the people who were banking on grade replacement to become doctors, and I'd be pissed off af if I were you guys, and rightfully so. They really aren't handling this delicately enough. But at the same time this is a step in the right direction in terms of improving the DO reputation/marketing of the brand.

 

[edgerock24]

yep its an awful thing to acknowledge but this is pretty good news for anyone that doesn't need grade replacement or is already accepted at a DO program/already a student. Makes the programs look more legit. The real **** news is that they didn't announce it like 3 years in advance.

Yeah, that's the thing. This is something that should've been announced at least 2-3 years in advance. Many individuals have spent thousands of hard earned money on courses that they retook. Now, without any warning, that hard work is greatly diminished.

Say what you want about upward trends; what will initially show on an application is a numeric GPA. If that GPA is barely a 3.0 (even with a couple years of getting straight A's), it's going to be hard to look past.

And most people don't have the money to dish out on SMP's (or have more time to waste).

Just a really unprofessional move, all around.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This doesn't improve any quality what so ever! ACGME PDs of extremely competitive residencies and program will still not pick DOs due to horrible clinical skills and zero research experience. This doesn't change DO students situation what so ever. All this does is make the lives of adcoms easier by being able to weed out more applicants. Nothing more.

 

[edgerock24]

Oh it's a big deal. Absolutely it is, but probably not int he way you think.

Yes, this sucks big time for the people who were banking on grade replacement to become doctors, and I'd be pissed off af if I were you guys, and rightfully so. They really aren't handling this delicately enough. But at the same time this is a step in the right direction in terms of improving the DO reputation/marketing of the brand.

Yeah, I get that. Just wish COCA looked at improving clinical sites or disallowed schools from popping up quite often (with large initial entering classes) to improve the DO reputation.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I didn't really personally benefit from this when I applied (replaced only 2 courses), but I think it's pretty sad that they are doing this considering how many 2nd chance students are out there that could make great physicians.

Good luck, guys. Apply ASAP.

 

[zero0]

This doesn't improve any quality what so ever! ACGME PDs of extremely competitive residencies and program will still not pick DOs due to horrible clinical skills and zero research experience. This doesn't change DO students situation what so ever. All this does is make the lives of adcoms easier by being able to weed out more applicants. Nothing more.

Agreed, it's like they're spraying Fabreeze when it's really the carpet that needs to be changed.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Agreed, it's like they're spraying Fabreeze when it's really the carpet that needs to be changed.

Now that's quotable. I'll add one.

Its like adding more fabric softener into the drier, when it is the drier that really needs to be fixed.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yeah, I get that. Just wish COCA looked at improving clinical sites or disallowed schools from popping up quite often (with large initial entering classes) to improve the DO reputation.

After the ACGME merger, I think COCA is on its way out as well. This is why they are trying to cash in as fast as possible with these dubious new COMs.

 

[779663]

@Goro now that grade replacement is soon to be a thing of the past, can you settle an issue that often gets discussed by students? If two otherwise identical applicants are being compared to one another and one has a 3.4 GPA with no repeats and the other has a 3.4 with numerous repeated courses, did adcoms really consider them to be equal? Or did the notion that obtaining a given GPA without repeats is preferable prevail in admissions committees despite having grade forgiveness?

 

[IslandStyle808]

@Goro now that grade replacement is soon to be a thing of the past, can you settle an issue that often gets discussed by students? If two otherwise identical applicants are being compared to one another and one has a 3.4 GPA with no repeats and the other has a 3.4 with numerous repeated courses, did adcoms really consider them to be equal? Or did the notion that obtaining a given GPA without repeats is preferable prevail in admissions committees despite having grade forgiveness?

One of my classmates was actually rejected from an older school. The reason given was the other accepted applicants had the same GPA, but had less repeats than him. I have a feeling the older schools had something to do with this trend.

 

[IdealNFP]

I'm pretty borderline without grade replacement, but was going to be competitive with some grade replacement this upcoming semester. Some kind of warning would have been nice, but life is funny that way sometimes. When I was reading through this thread flashes of law school and taking the LSAT instead went through my mind. I guess I'll keep on keeping on, attempt to ace the MCAT and finish my last 20 or so science credits strong before I apply.

After reading through people's responses, I doubt this will change the average GPA at DO schools, it'll be much easier to screen others. If anything the average MCAT might go up slightly. All in all this announcement is extremely unprofessional and really does nothing to improve the quality of education/research/opportunities for DO schools. LOL time for a miracle and hope for a 520 on the MCAT this spring.

 

[dramatrauma]

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[impervious0ne]

My GPA just tanked from c3.26/s3.7 to c2.69/s2.80, without grade replacement. I've spent the last 4 years working on grade replacement while working full-time. I'm in shock. Don't even know what to do right now.

Sorry to hear that @DoctorCupcake

This news doesn't bode well with me either... Best of luck to you.

 

[k3less123]

.

 

[Marrowist]

Why don't those of you who are most upset about this send an email to COCA and AACOMAS expressing how you feel, and get all your friends to send one as well?

 

[Dochopeful13]

Got an email from AACOM via my pre-health advisor that said this:

"Effective May 1, 2017, AACOMAS will include all course attempts in the GPA calculation. This change applies to students matriculating into the 2018-2019 academic year. In the event of multiple attempts of the same course, AACOMAS will no longer drop initial course attempts from the GPA calculation."

Does this mean that grade replacement is no longer a viable option to improve one's GPA relatively quickly for osteopathic schools?

@Goro without grade replacement I'm sitting at around 3.3 cgpa and a 3.5 to 3.6 sgpa. Will a strong mcat give me a punchers chance still?

 

[Marrowist]

@Goro without grade replacement I'm sitting at around 3.3 cgpa and a 3.5 to 3.6 sgpa. Will a strong mcat give me a punchers chance still?

I had 7 interview invites, and 4 acceptances (so far) one of which was at my top choice with stats lower than that and a 502 MCAT. You will be fine.

 

[SurgDoc95]

No. I read what you said and know you're a MS-1. I agree with everything you stated.

That doesn't make up for several others who don't think this change is going to make a difference in matriculation statistics. Or the guy who just "doesn't agree with grade replacement" or whatever.

Regardless if myself or others do not agree with grade replacement I think everyone here can agree that the lack of notice from AACOMAS/AACOM about the policy change is atrocious. They definitely should have given at least a year or two notice so that those who were banking on being able to use grade replacement would've been able to plan accordingly.

 

[Nikj]

@AlteredScale or another admin should sticky this thread once it is announced officially, it is quite big news.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Regardless if myself or others do not agree with grade replacement I think everyone here can agree that the lack of notice from AACOMAS/AACOM about the policy change is atrocious. They definitely should have given at least a year or two notice so that those who were banking on being able to use grade replacement would've been able to plan accordingly.

I agree with that; Overall I think it was a good move though. This enables D.O schools to get on a more equal footing with M.D schools
That is an important thing with the merger coming up.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

The merger of MD, DO, and DPM was first started as a concept in the late 1990s under a project called "Physician 2015." The DPMs dropped out quickly and the MD/DO myriad of state medical societies, professional medical associations, and various state medical boards, feeling their political turf was being threatened, stopped any merger of the school level organizations. The only thing that did come from it was the residency merger between ACGME and AOA. That was mostly motivated by the lack of growth in MD slots and the availability of unfilled slots "owned" by Osteopathic hospitals, which were being consumed by the wave of mergers across medical centers.

However, the idea of merging all of MD/DO education, certification, and accreditation infrastructure is still alive. With the success of the merger project, it has overcome some inertia for possible LCME/COCA, AAMC/AACOM, and AMCAS/AACOMAS merger, with the last being most likely. While AACOMAS has now tried to improve their application system with revamp in 2015 and grade replacement being dropped, they still do not have the kind of control that AMCAS has in the application process with strong centralized direction of the process over the schools. I wouldnt be surprised if some of the stronger schools such as ATSU, Midwest and Western lead a movement to go under AMCAS for admissions processing

That would be awesome if there was a central application system for all schools.
It would be easy to apply to D.O schools then without spending a lot more extra

 

[Dochopeful13]

I had 7 interview invites, and 4 acceptances (so far) one of which was at my top choice with stats lower than that and a 502 MCAT. You will be fine.

Thank you. Congrats on your acceptance. Are you URM by any chance?

 

[SurgDoc95]

I agree with that; Overall I think it was a good move though. This enables D.O schools to get on a more equal footing with M.D schools
That is an important thing with the merger coming up.

I agree with that 100% but wanted to clarify my earlier posts so that I didn't seem like I'm ragging on those who are effected by the change.

 

[Dochopeful13]

I agree with that; Overall I think it was a good move though. This enables D.O schools to get on a more equal footing with M.D schools
That is an important thing with the merger coming up.

How does this move put Do schools on equal footing? Will they suddenly not be a backup for MD schools anymore? All this move does is knock out a percentage of the applicant pool. Even Goro admits that this move will bring down school medians. I really think this is a classic example of arrogance by Coca. Opening up more and more schools every year plus this move will have a negative affect on osteopathic schools.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I agree with that 100% but wanted to clarify my earlier posts so that I didn't seem like I'm ragging on those who are effected by the change.

Yes, same here; I just want D.O schools to have equal standards to M.D schools. This is for the benefit for anyone who goes D.O because if the standards aren't equal some program directors will view M.D better than D.O and knock off points.
In the long run this will help in the match(maybe, I could be wrong but I think it will help)

 

[Dr.Sticks]

How does this move put Do schools on equal footing? Will they suddenly not be a backup for MD schools anymore? All this move does is knock out a percentage of the applicant pool. Even Goro admits that this move will bring down school medians. I really think this is a classic example of arrogance by Coca. Opening up more and more schools every year plus this move will have a negative affect on osteopathic schools.

Because if the admission standards aren't equivalent it might make M.D look better to program directors.
I mean there is already a slight bias.. These moves in my opinion will work to start crushing these biased views.

 

[Dochopeful13]

Because if the admission standards aren't equivalent it might make M.D look better to program directors.
I mean there is already a slight bias.. These moves in my opinion will work to start crushing these biased views.

Do you really think MD's have a bias against DO's because they offered grade replacement? Podiatry schools or dental schoolsdo not offer grade replacement are they seen on par with allopathic schools? Md schools will have higher stats than osteopathic schools no matter what. Knocking out a large percentage of DO applicants such as career changers and non trads is a terrible thing. Especially since DO's are supposed to be "holistic". I am not sure how getting rid of grade replacement suddenly makes DO schools on par with MD schools. If all they care about is appearance why even have DO schools at all anymore?

 

[deleted446889]

I had 7 interview invites, and 4 acceptances (so far) one of which was at my top choice with stats lower than that and a 502 MCAT. You will be fine.

I have a 3.4 cGPA but a 2.9 sGPA. I can pull up the sGPA to barely above a 3.0 but not much more than that. What do you think of my situation? @Goro?

I feel like I was a few retakes away from being a solid DO applicant but now I don't even know if I'll make cutoffs

 

[SurgDoc95]

Do you really think MD's have a bias against DO's because they offered grade replacement? Podiatry schools or dental schoolsdo not offer grade replacement are they seen on par with allopathic schools? Md schools will have higher stats than osteopathic schools no matter what. Knocking out a large percentage of DO applicants such as career changers and non trads is a terrible thing. Especially since DO's are supposed to be "holistic". I am not sure how getting rid of grade replacement suddenly makes DO schools on par with MD schools. If all they care about is appearance why even have DO schools at all anymore?

Dental schools yes and Podiatry schools no.

 

[cnb0014]

Would this change lower the number of applicants this upcoming cycle? In particular reapps whose stats might change now due to this policy?


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[femmegoblue]

LSU-Shrevenport and Wayne state are two that come to mind. Haven't looked in a while so I could be wrong. Someone please correct me if this has changed.

Wayne also has a 20 credit post-bacc/science master's/SMP GPA policy where they replace your uGPA.

 

[Marrowist]

The level of panic in this thread is palpable even when I am offline.

 

[futuredrummerdoctor]

It has been confirmed

 

[futuredrummerdoctor]

Wayne also has a 20 credit post-bacc/science master's/SMP GPA policy where they replace your uGPA.

Don't you have to be a michigan resident, though?

 

[AlteredScale]

@AlteredScale or another admin should sticky this thread once it is announced officially, it is quite big news.

Will definitely do that once the announcement gets through.


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[GypsyHummus]

While this is absolutely dreadful, I can't say I'm surprised. When I applied last year, AACOMAS made it extremely difficult to do grade replacement. I had the suspicion that this would happen over the next couple years. Im surprised they are implementing it now however, very soon.

Grade replacement is the only reason my app was considered in the first place for DO school. I went from a 3.0 science GPA to a 3.4 just by replacing all the Cs on my transcript with As. Its the only reason I was interviewed last year.

Looks like a lot of people are going to get left behind. SMPs for DO schools might be the way to go. Either that or go to podiatry school. Though the caliber of people I interviewed with at Pod school seems to have taken a great uptick from years past. It used to be anyone with a 3.0+ and 490+ (18 MCAT) could get in. The people in my group all had 3.3+ and 495+. I see Pod school going the way of DO school stat-wise in the next 7-10 years.

Thats ok, the smart ones will choose dentistry in the end.

 

[AlteredScale]

This is so weak. I can't imagine anyone is going to buy it that they just HAD to switch the system RIGHT NOW WITH NO WARNING because they were getting too many FAQs about it. What a load of nonsense.

One other thing of interest from this post on osteopathic.org about a meeting last month:

"This year, the COCA has approached the Standards Revision Process a bit differently from prior years. This was brought about by our recent United State Department of Education (USDE) renewal of recognition as an accrediting agency. In that petition review, it was determined that the COCA standards, policies, and procedures potentially allow for inconsistency in decision making. Thus, a recommendation was put forth that we complete a comprehensive standards revision"

Maybe someone much more in the know than myself can take a guess at whether this is related at all

It's hard to say this had anything related to above. They won't announce anything about this COCA version 2.0 until April this year.

What I'd like to know is, what happened in the DoE that all of sudden forced their hand to tell coca to revise their standard?


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[femmegoblue]

Don't you have to be a michigan resident, though?

No, Wayne is not a strictly IS school. It accepts many OOS students per year. As far as public med schools go, it's definitely OOS friendly.

They offered spots to 348 IS and 211 OOS last cycle.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Do you really think MD's have a bias against DO's because they offered grade replacement? Podiatry schools or dental schoolsdo not offer grade replacement are they seen on par with allopathic schools? Md schools will have higher stats than osteopathic schools no matter what. Knocking out a large percentage of DO applicants such as career changers and non trads is a terrible thing. Especially since DO's are supposed to be "holistic". I am not sure how getting rid of grade replacement suddenly makes DO schools on par with MD schools. If all they care about is appearance why even have DO schools at all anymore?

Yes; Minus probably a few schools like Michigan. There is a reason why getting into competitive residencies is harder being a D.O than an M.D.
Also this won't suddenly change things of course, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[futuredrummerdoctor]

While this is absolutely dreadful, I can't say I'm surprised. When I applied last year, AACOMAS made it extremely difficult to do grade replacement. I had the suspicion that this would happen over the next couple years. Im surprised they are implementing it now however, very soon.

Grade replacement is the only reason my app was considered in the first place for DO school. I went from a 3.0 science GPA to a 3.4 just by replacing all the Cs on my transcript with As. Its the only reason I was interviewed last year.

Looks like a lot of people are going to get left behind. SMPs for DO schools might be the way to go. Either that or go to podiatry school. Though the caliber of people I interviewed with at Pod school seems to have taken a great uptick from years past. It used to be anyone with a 3.0+ and 490+ (18 MCAT) could get in. The people in my group all had 3.3+ and 495+. I see Pod school going the way of DO school stat-wise in the next 7-10 years.

Thats ok, the smart ones will choose dentistry in the end.

SMP is the way to go!

 

[Dochopeful13]

While this is absolutely dreadful, I can't say I'm surprised. When I applied last year, AACOMAS made it extremely difficult to do grade replacement. I had the suspicion that this would happen over the next couple years. Im surprised they are implementing it now however, very soon.

Grade replacement is the only reason my app was considered in the first place for DO school. I went from a 3.0 science GPA to a 3.4 just by replacing all the Cs on my transcript with As. Its the only reason I was interviewed last year.

Looks like a lot of people are going to get left behind. SMPs for DO schools might be the way to go. Either that or go to podiatry school. Though the caliber of people I interviewed with at Pod school seems to have taken a great uptick from years past. It used to be anyone with a 3.0+ and 490+ (18 MCAT) could get in. The people in my group all had 3.3+ and 495+. I see Pod school going the way of DO school stat-wise in the next 7-10 years.

Thats ok, the smart ones will choose dentistry in the end.[/QUOTE

I have been told by several doctors I shadowed to do dentistry instead. I am curious why you think dentistry is a better path as well.​

 

[Nikj]

Do you know of any SMP's for DO schools that will accept someone with a sub-3.0 GPA? My GPA with grade replacement is around a 3.4, but without it, I'm sitting sub-3.0, science GPA might even be like a 2.6.

https://lecom.edu/academics/masters-degree-programs/master-of-medical-science/

https://lecom.edu/academics/health-sciences-post-baccalaureate-program/

http://medsciences.nova.edu/master-biomedical-sciences/

 

[efle]

It's hard to say this had anything related to above. They won't announce anything about this COCA version 2.0 until April this year.

What I'd like to know is, what happened in the DoE that all of sudden forced their hand to tell coca to revise their standard?


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I'm especially suspicious because of the similar wording, on top of the timing just a few weeks apart, and the fact that COCA having a deadline to update by April would explain the immediate change impacting this cycle.

AACOM recognizes the need to streamline application policies and instructions, and we anticipate this new policy will ensure a fair, consistent, and transparent application process for all applicants.

it was determined that the COCA standards, policies, and procedures potentially allow for inconsistency in decision making.

What exactly does "inconsistency in decision making" mean? In the context of grade calcuations and the DoE telling COCA this needs fixing and it needs to happen right now to remain an accrediting body, I'm at a loss for what the phrase means.

 

[gabem480]

Luckily I am not as far into it and with grade averaging I will still be able to pull my gpa to around a 3.79 ish by the end of this year as long as I maintain a 4.0. I feel for those who might have just had the door slammed in their face it is really crappy that this happened so suddenly.

 

[Nikj]

I'm especially suspicious because of the similar wording, on top of the timing just a few weeks apart, and the fact that COCA having a deadline to update by April would explain the immediate change impacting this cycle.






What exactly does "inconsistency in decision making" mean? In the context of grade calcuations and the DoE telling COCA this needs fixing and it needs to happen right now to remain an accrediting body, I'm at a loss for what the phrase means.

It sounds like it is referring to inconsistencies with how COCA evaluates schools during the accreditation process, and some aspects of the evaluation of students themselves.

 

[SurgDoc95]

I'm especially suspicious because of the similar wording, on top of the timing just a few weeks apart, and the fact that COCA having a deadline to update by April would explain the immediate change impacting this cycle.






What exactly does "inconsistency in decision making" mean? In the context of grade calcuations and the DoE telling COCA this needs fixing and it needs to happen right now to remain an accrediting body, I'm at a loss for what the phrase means.

It would seem that the inconsistencies they refer to are those that would have much lower GPAs without grade replacement. I'm curious what their actual reasoning behind the suddenness of the move is and what role the DoE had?

 

[efle]

It sounds like it is referring to inconsistencies with how COCA evaluates schools during the accreditation process, and some aspects of the evaluation of students themselves.

I wonder what the issue with grade replacement is, though? If DO schools are still allowed to internally calculate differently, and MD schools also do whatever they want (for example U of Washington and Wayne weighting each year / only the last 30 credits differently), what is this fixing?

 

[deleted446889]

It's very disturbing that such extreme changes can be made without notice...

What about things like math not counting for sGPA? Does anyone think that will change as well?

 

[AlteredScale]

It sounds like it is referring to inconsistencies with how COCA evaluates schools during the accreditation process, and some aspects of the evaluation of students themselves.

Yeah I'm unaware of coca has any say in the AACOMAS process because their main process is providing accreditation to DO programs. I would have to believe that someone or a group of people (whether from the DO or MD side) made some points of concern to the DoE regarding how COCA goes about their accreditation process. Is it because of the ridiculous opening of schools and expansion of campuses? I'm not sure but I have a feeling that hard a part in it without a doubt.


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