End of Grade Replacement?

[Nikj]

I wonder what the issue with grade replacement is, though? If DO schools are still allowed to internally calculate differently, and MD schools also do whatever they want (for example U of Washington and Wayne weighting each year / only the last 30 credits differently), what is this fixing?

Because most MD schools don't do this, and I imagine most DO schools also will no longer do grade replacement. And as I pointed out before, there is a big difference between grade replacement and doing a post-bacc SMP or Masters. The Masters/postbacc is >>>>> grade replacement.

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[Marrowist]

Is it because of the ridiculous opening of schools and expansion of campuses?

What if these openings and expansions were happening because said expansionists knew that big changes were coming and they better get in while the gettin' is good? Remember - its all about money, after all.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Dentistry is great because it's only 4 years of schooling compared to the minimum of 7 years of medical (4 years plus Family Med residency). It is also nice because you have a much greater opportunity to go into private practice for yourself. Also very nice because the government is not nearly as involving in dentistry as it is in medicine, i.e. Dentists actually get paid for what they do.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Its confusing to me that the email stated, "Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."

If this is true, the newer DO schools could honor grade replacement and more established schools could follow the AACOMAS GPA calculation. Then when reporting their average matriculant GPA's their numbers they would appear to be similar. Is this how it works?

As a DO school wouldn't you want to honor grade replacements so the average GPAs of your students would appear higher? Maybe not... I'm just asking.

 

[Marrowist]

Again, all of this outrage, panic, and confusion should be funneled at AACOMAS...

Here is the email address -

[email protected]

 

[SurgDoc95]

Its confusing to me that the email stated, "Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."

If this is true, the newer DO schools could honor grade replacement and more established schools could follow the AACOMAS GPA calculation. Then when reporting their average matriculant GPA's their numbers they would appear to be similar. Is this how it works?

As a DO school wouldn't you want to honor grade replacements so the average GPAs of your students would appear higher? Maybe not... I'm just asking.

Yes and no to your last point. They may be attempting to weed out the lower end of the applicant pool and attempt to increase the overall stats of their matriculants and fight the stigma of being a backup plan or inferior etc. Curious as to what the outcome will be.

 

[Nikj]

Its confusing to me that the email stated, "Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."

If this is true, the newer DO schools could honor grade replacement and more established schools could follow the AACOMAS GPA calculation. Then when reporting their average matriculant GPA's their numbers they would appear to be similar. Is this how it works?

As a DO school wouldn't you want to honor grade replacements so the average GPAs of your students would appear higher? Maybe not... I'm just asking.

Again there are several issues with this

1. Schools see applicants because they submit through AACOMAS, so to avoid the cutoff issue, schools will have to change their admissions process up a lot to get/find those who did grade replacement

2. There will be a ton of pressure from many different organizations and bodies forcing these schools to do away with grade replacement

There are more reasons talked about throughout the thread.

 

[HMtoDO]

Its confusing to me that the email stated, "Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."

If this is true, the newer DO schools could honor grade replacement and more established schools could follow the AACOMAS GPA calculation. Then when reporting their average matriculant GPA's their numbers they would appear to be similar. Is this how it works?

As a DO school wouldn't you want to honor grade replacements so the average GPAs of your students would appear higher? Maybe not... I'm just asking.

If schools do choose to still allow grade replacement it would be completely internal. All reported averages of applicants and matriculants would still come from the AACOMAS verified gpa's

This is shameful and I truly feel for the people this impacts readily. As someone who benefited from the policy I am rooting for you guys who are reinventing themselves.


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[Johnny Appleseed]

This is my GPA trend. With grade replacement I would have a 3.7-3.8. Without it I am at a 3.5. From what I am gathering I should be fine??? I feel really bad for those who are around 3.0 this must be demoralizing...

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

The other thing is I am retaking 4 F's from my second freshman semester when I dropped out (HIST 1500, POLS 1100, ASTR 1040, and MUSC 1010) this upcoming semester. Now I am thinking I should drop them and take other courses. The problem is it is so close to the new semester starting, all the other classes I would take are full! I would have enjoyed a 2 month warning so I wouldn't have wasted this semester (and a few thousand dollars)!

 

[SurgDoc95]

View attachment 213054

This is my GPA trend. With grade replacement I would have a 3.7-3.8. Without it I am at a 3.5. From what I am gathering I should be fine??? I feel really bad for those who are around 3.0 this must be demoralizing...

A 3.5 without grade replacement means your in good shape with anything north of a 500 on your MCAT assuming you have decent ECs!

 

[SurgDoc95]

The other thing is I am retaking 4 F's from my second freshman semester when I dropped out (HIST 1500, POLS 1100, ASTR 1040, and MUSC 1010) this upcoming semester. Now I am thinking I should drop them and take other courses. The problem is it is so close to the new semester starting, all the other classes I would take are full! I would have enjoyed a 2 month warning so I wouldn't have wasted this semester (and a few thousand dollars)!

It's only going to help you to retake those courses as an A and an F in those will average out to a C which should still raise your GPA and removes red flags.

 

[efle]

attempt to increase the overall stats of their matriculants and fight the stigma of being a backup plan or inferior

This seems like the only motive I can come up with. We've seen MCAT scores at the upper end of DO rise up to overlap with lower MD in a lot of cases, maybe it's a move to become as interchangeable with MD as possible. Long term with the residency merging as well, maybe the idea is for DO schools to become the target for solid GPA, mediocre MCAT candidates and build classes on par with some of the public/mission driven or low end private MD schools.

 

[SurgDoc95]

This seems like the only motive I can come up with. We've seen MCAT scores at the upper end of DO rise up to overlap with lower MD in a lot of cases, maybe it's a move to become as interchangeable with MD as possible. Long term with the residency merging as well, maybe the idea is for DO schools to become the target for solid GPA, mediocre MCAT candidates and build classes on par with some of the public/mission driven or low end private MD schools.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with that. It will only serve to increase the respect for DOs and attract more applicants on that MD/DO border.

There will always be people who reinvent themselves and get accepted to DO programs with or without grade replacement.

 

[Marrowist]

Please don't seek noble intentions in this latest announcement. When in doubt, always remember this is about money folks. Look for the money.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

A 3.5 without grade replacement means your in good shape with anything north of a 500 on your MCAT assuming you have decent ECs!

Huge sigh of relief, my heart dropped when I saw the announcement. I feel so bad for those in worse shape than me.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Huge sigh of relief, my heart dropped when I saw the announcement. I feel so bad for those in worse shape than me.

Speaking as a 3.59 guy you'll be just fine now focus on that MCAT

I do agree with you about those who have been working to retake courses under the old policy. They are getting the short end of the stick for sure.

 

[Lawpy]

Few questions for @Goro @gonnif since you are very well versed with admissions policies and can provide objective, thorough information on the matter. What was the reason behind AACOM's decision to eliminate grade replacement policy? Why was this decision made without a warning?

 

[efle]

Please don't seek noble intentions in this latest announcement. When in doubt, always remember this is about money folks. Look for the money.

Who stands to profit by this move?

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'm curious to know how many people actually utilize grade replacement when applying. How many people will be affected by this? 5% or 90%? Maybe they felt like this policy only helped a very small percentage of applicants and the benefits of prestige outweighed helping those few applicants.

 

[deleted572522]

Who stands to profit by this move?

No one. If anything they lose money because less people apply and less secondaries. Most people aren't going to do SMP'S, most will just give up.

 

[kelminak]

I think my entire future is ruined. I have worked from a 1.9 to over a 3.0 to apply this summer and they're suddenly springing this change on us? How can they do this with absolutely no warning and think people won't be screwed over? I've spent years fixing my GPA so I could be a candidate and now I don't have anything.

 

[efle]

No one. If anything they lose money because less people apply and less secondaries. Most people aren't going to do SMP'S, most will just give up.

Yeah, I see SMP recommended so often it's easy to forget it's essentially a gamble with ~$50,000 . Without quick postbacc as an option I think this change really hurts a lot and isn't just a minor shift

 

[futuredrummerdoctor]

It MIGHT vary school to school, we will just have to see.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I think my entire future is ruined. I have worked from a 1.9 to over a 3.0 to apply this summer and they're suddenly springing this change on us? How can they do this with absolutely no warning and think people won't be screwed over? I've spent years fixing my GPA so I could be a candidate and now I don't have anything.

Maybe acceptance policies will change and schools will lower GPA minimums and accept a few students with low GPAs who have shown an upward trend. There is still some hope.

I'm with you though, this was an evil move to those retaking courses.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I just called one of the newer DO schools and even they are saying that they have to abide by the new policy change. Do you guys think ANY of the med schools will stick to the old system of grade replacement?

No. Just my opinion. Especially since they have to report the AACOMAS calculations of GPA.

 

[efle]

Yeah I'm gonna say no as well. Putting a bunch of effort into special internal calculations, and then end up reporting an insanely low AACOMAS GPA because of people with a Replace - 3.4 but Averaged - 2.9 ? Doesn't seem like there's much motivation

 

[futuredrummerdoctor]

Yeah I'm gonna say no as well. Putting a bunch of effort into special internal calculations, and then end up reporting an insanely low AACOMAS GPA because of people with a Replace - 3.4 but Averaged - 2.9 ? Doesn't seem like there's much motivation

Your explanation seems reasonable to be honest

 

[Sardinia]

@kelminak No. It's not the end of your medical school dreams. It's just going to require more research on your part and gambling on schools in order to find which options school offer for students who retook extensive amounts of credits. Instead of AACOMAS centralizing grade replacement, it is now on the part of the student to find out which programs will still espouse the traditional replacement metric versus a "first time is the charm" metric. Determining which schools fit both criteria of "best fit" schools and "best chance of acceptance" schools will have to be considered in order to create the best match list prior to applying.

The ensuing application period went from one of black and white to varying shades of grey. However, there are no certainties in life and especially no guarantees when it comes to securing a medical acceptance.

 

[Marrowist]

Who stands to profit by this move?

I will have to think about it for a bit, but I am sure money is involved here, at some level. Perhaps the osteopathic programs/colleges aren't directly making profit, but someone up the food chain is, rest assured. Either way, its irrelevant I suppose. Very grateful I applied when I did. Now I wonder if those of us who applied before 2017 will be looked down on? Called Grade Replacers perhaps? Inferior DO students.

 

[HowYouGetAnts]

They should at least honor classes taken before the May 2017 cutoff. Then we would have one last semester tweak our GPAs with the policy and those already retaken classes like myself didn't just waste effort.

Honestly, actions like this should be illegal. To encourage thousands of people to spend thousands of dollars to gain acceptance into their programs and suddenly slam the door in their face. We were retaking classes in good faith that, while we didn't have a guarantee of acceptance, that we would be considered. I know there is probably no protection for us under the law but I wish the thousands of people could take up a class action lawsuit or something over this.

I have no experience with law btw, just disgusted at the injustice involved here.

 

[Sardinia]

I will have to think about it for a bit, but I am sure money is involved here, at some level. Perhaps the osteopathic programs/colleges aren't directly making profit, but someone up the food chain is, rest assured. Either way, its irrelevant I suppose. Very grateful I applied when I did. Now I wonder if those of us who applied before 2017 will be looked down on? Called Grade Replacers perhaps? Inferior DO students.

It's okay to say that you don't know. It would actually reduce the level of noise that you've more than substantially elevated in response to the signal stimulus.

 

[779663]

Honestly, actions like this should be illegal. To encourage thousands of people to spend thousands of dollars to gain acceptance into their programs and suddenly slam the door in their face.

Honestly, I'm sure at least one pissed off applicant who got screwed will look into suing. Not saying it's gonna be successful or change anything, but I'm certain it'll happen.

 

[naivePremed]

This is easily the worst news I have read in a while. Way to start the 2017 year. This is so disheartening, and I am at a loss for words. The year that I apply this change takes place and I am sitting here thinking that my path and goals to becoming a physician is crushed. I have utilized grade replacement on two courses, as many DO applicants have in the past. In order to have a decent chance I needed the grade replacement. Now I don't know what to do. Studying for the MCAT currently and this is depressing to say the least.

 

[pathhermit]

The end of my freshman year, I had a 1.81 GPA. I applied MD with a 3.50 after averaging a 3.93 for four years (5 years to graduate), got accepted. At each interview, I heard quite the opposite - that my first year was 'understandable', but my trend afterwards was great. I even spoke with an admissions committee member at a nearby school, and he said he wouldn't even flinch at my first year. Some interviewees simply said "MCAT is great, grades are stellar" and moved on with the interview. Seriously, don't doubt the upward trend.

Say what you want about upward trends; what will initially show on an application is a numeric GPA. If that GPA is barely a 3.0 (even with a couple years of getting straight A's), it's going to be hard to look past

 

[Sardinia]

Honestly, I'm sure at least one pissed off applicant who got screwed will look into suing. Not saying it's gonna be successful or change anything, but I'm certain it'll happen.

No one is this stupid. Once you find out what attorney fees are and the frequency in which payment is demanded (six-minute attorneys), this becomes the most impractical approach for an individual to issue a lawsuit. No lawyer will take such a case seriously when judges have thrown out such cases in New York City on the basis of caveat emptor for civil action lawsuits regarding falsified post-employment data by Brooklyn law schools on their graduates after obtaining their JD.

 

[DNC127]

Veterinary OMM and MD/DO lol

Now that you mention it, one of our OMM professors talks about doing OMM on her dog and he "loves it".

Plot twist though, she is a MD who did OMM training and calls herself a "born again DO" so who knows lol.

 

[Dochopeful13]

No one is this stupid. Once you find out what attorney fees are and the frequency in which payment is demanded (six-minute attorneys), this becomes the most impractical approach for an individual to issue a lawsuit. No lawyer will take such a case seriously when judges have thrown out such cases in New York City on the basis of caveat emptor for civil action lawsuits regarding falsified employment data by Brooklyn law schools.

Really?? People sue everyday for much dumber reasons. Welcome to America.

 

[HMtoDO]

The end of my freshman year, I had a 1.81 GPA. I applied MD with a 3.50 after averaging a 3.93 for four years (5 years to graduate), got accepted. At each interview, I heard quite the opposite - that my first year was 'understandable', but my trend afterwards was great. I even spoke with an admissions committee member at a nearby school, and he said he wouldn't even flinch at my first year. Some interviewees simply said "MCAT is great, grades are stellar" and moved on with the interview. Seriously, don't doubt the upward trend.

The upward trend is great IF you can get your foot in the door. And that's a big if. One year of bad grades? That's easy to fix. 3 years? Not so much.


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[779663]

No one is this stupid. Once you find out what attorney fees are and the frequency in which payment is demanded (six-minute attorneys), this becomes the most impractical approach for an individual to issue a lawsuit. No lawyer will take such a case seriously when judges have thrown out such cases in New York City on the basis of caveat emptor for civil action lawsuits regarding falsified employment data by Brooklyn law schools.

It's dumb no doubt, but when has something being a bad idea prevented people from doing it? I just read an article about a family suing Apple because a driver of a car was distracted by FaceTime and killed a pedestrian. If that lawsuit gets through, it isn't ridiculous to imagine this. Money is definitely going to be the limiting factor here, but I'm picturing a premed student with wealthy parents who are pissed off that their child just had his/her hopes and dreams crushed

 

[SurgDoc95]

Really?? People sue everyday for much dumber reasons. Welcome to America.

Yes they do and it's an atrocity.

 

[Goro]

It's possible.

Do you think DO schools will have their own GPA calculator w/ grade replacement in their secondary apps? At least that would be somewhat helpful to many applicants!

This question comes up all the time, in different variations. My answer is always the same: it's a fool's errand. Med schools do not invite two people for a single seat. Both candidates would be accepted if the other parts of their app look fine, and they don't bomb their interviews. You can't reduce an admissions question to a single parameter.

@Goro now that grade replacement is soon to be a thing of the past, can you settle an issue that often gets discussed by students? If two otherwise identical applicants are being compared to one another and one has a 3.4 GPA with no repeats and the other has a 3.4 with numerous repeated courses, did adcoms really consider them to be equal? Or did the notion that obtaining a given GPA without repeats is preferable prevail in admissions committees despite having grade forgiveness?

Absolutely. Your state MD school might also look at you favorably.

@Goro without grade replacement I'm sitting at around 3.3 cgpa and a 3.5 to 3.6 sgpa. Will a strong mcat give me a punchers chance still?

PD's don't care about the incoming end of med students; they care about the output. ie, they want to know that residents are ready to be, well, residents. The bias some PDs have agains DO grads is NOT because they had lower median GPAs going into med school, it's because they're leery of the poor training they're receiving in the clinical years.

Because if the admission standards aren't equivalent it might make M.D look better to program directors.
I mean there is already a slight bias.. These moves in my opinion will work to start crushing these biased views.

I suggest aceing a DIY postbac or SMP to allay concerns about the poor sGPA. Either that, or do well on MCAT, and focus much more on the newest DO schools.

I have a 3.4 cGPA but a 2.9 sGPA. I can pull up the sGPA to barely above a 3.0 but not much more than that. What do you think of my situation? @Goro?

I feel like I was a few retakes away from being a solid DO applicant but now I don't even know if I'll make cutoffs

Absolutely! Even for MD schools.

View attachment 213054

This is my GPA trend. With grade replacement I would have a 3.7-3.8. Without it I am at a 3.5. From what I am gathering I should be fine??? I feel really bad for those who are around 3.0 this must be demoralizing...

Gonnif has already written about this; my take is that AACOMAS wants to be on a more even footing with AMCAS....ie, they want to play with the Big Boys. This obviously will take some time. Why without a warning? Because they're ***holes? I would have given people a year's notice. What they did was cruel.

Few questions for @Goro @gonnif since you are very well versed with admissions policies and can provide objective, thorough information on the matter. What was the reason behind AACOM's decision to eliminate grade replacement policy? Why was this decision made without a warning?

 

[ICUBlue]

It's very disturbing that such extreme changes can be made without notice...

What about things like math not counting for sGPA? Does anyone think that will change as well?

Going along with this, would they just make it straight BCPM without notice too and eliminate all the other "sciences" they include? I wouldn't complain bc it would help me but a lot of other ppl would be affected in different ways too


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[Sardinia]

@Dochopeful13 @cantcatchme @RamsFan&FutureDO I am of strong belief based on how courts are systematically dismissing lawsuits regarding law school falsification of student employment data that there won't be any traction in such a case against AACOMAS. Consequently, no attorney will take a lawsuit of this nature seriously. AACOMAS has falsified nothing nor did they promise that they would continue to keep a grade replacement model active.

 

[SurgDoc95]

@Dochopeful13 @cantcatchme @RamsFan&FutureDO I am of strong belief based on how courts are systematically dismissing lawsuits regarding law school falsification of student employment data that there won't be any traction in such a case against AACOMAS. Consequently, no attorney will take a lawsuit of this nature seriously. AACOMAS has falsified nothing nor did they promise that they would continue to keep a grade replacement model active.

No disagreement here. Courts need to start dismissing a heck of a lot more suits across the country.

 

[redsox93]

No disagreement here. Courts need to start dismissing a heck of a lot more suits across the country.

Completely unrelated to this thread but your post reminded me of this documentary I watched a while ago. It's pretty interesting if you've got the time haha
http://www.hotcoffeethemovie.com/Default.asp

 

[daguerrotype]

It's like AACOMAS just punched me in the face. I'm a non-trad, and with my grades from 12 years ago grade replacement was the only way for me to get above a 3.0 in less than 200 credits. This is a horrible shock, and I have no idea what to do now. I chose so many of my classes with grade replacement in mind, spent thousands of dollars retaking old coursework when I would have rather been taking new upper division classes, got all As, got a 515 MCAT, and now it's all a waste. Thanks for the bait and switch, AACOMAS.

Maybe I'll see some more options once the shock wears off, but right now I don't see any path to becoming a doctor and everything feels hopeless.

 

[Carouselambra]

Going along with this, would they just make it straight BCPM without notice too and eliminate all the other "sciences" they include? I wouldn't complain bc it would help me but a lot of other ppl would be affected in different ways too


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If AACOMAS wants to be on a more even footing with AMCAS then I was wondering if that would happen too. My other science grades bump my gpa up significantly and I'm sure other people have benefited as well.

 

[Frogger27]

I am just going to throw in my $.02 about this.... but this whole thread is a typical overreaction that happens every time something unexpected happens. Everything will be fine.

Many people have started out college (and even finished college) with poor grades and gotten into medical school without utilizing "grade replacement." Get an upward trend/period of sustained academic excellence and a solid MCAT score on your record. This period of academic can include retakes, because who the hell likes to see D's on their transcript. If you show that whatever caused you to do poorly in school is behind you and that you have grown from it, you will have a shot at medical school.

I have a friend who graduated college with a 2.9 GPA. Took 8 years off of school in a non-medical field. Did a DIY post-bacc of ~30 credits with a near 4.0 GPA and crushed the MCAT. His AMCAS GPA came out to a 3.01. He got a full ride scholarship at a Top 20 school.

This new policy is not going to change anything. People who deserve to get into medical school WILL get into medical school. If you did poorly in classes and retook for an A, it is not for nothing. Yes it will not have the same bump in your GPA, but one thing I have learned from going through an application cycle: NUMBERS ARE NOT EVERYTHING.

Focus on what you can control. Put together a compelling story about why you are worthy of the opportunity to become a physician. Schools, especially DO schools, will look past poor academic performances if you have shown that you have grown from this and can handle med school.

Good luck friends!

 

[Lawpy]

Gonnif has already written about this; my take is that AACOMAS wants to be on a more even footing with AMCAS....ie, they want to play with the Big Boys. This obviously will take some time. Why without a warning? Because they're ***holes? I would have given people a year's notice. What they did was cruel.

@Bold this is why you are one of my favorite adcoms/faculty here. Well said

I'll look for the gonnif post since it looks like i missed it