Being forced to work more due to a divorce

[emergentmd]

Sometimes spending a lot more time with “family and friends” can be a warning sign tbh

This is the truth. My wife has a good relationship with her family and my family but doesn't really like to go home to visit other than respecting the parents. We like to be at home and hang around with the kids. We go out with friends but nothing beats having a calm night with the kids just talking and watching drivel.

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[RustedFox]

Lol… the only reason a dad is a dad that can be around his kids is because of a mom… though I guess they can go the surrogate route …a woman can be a mom without the sperm donor really staying involved… no surrogate needed.

And apparently the salary would be $184k/yr

If SAHMs were paid, their salary would be $184K/year

According to the latest data from salary.com.

www.mother.ly

Rad idea; you're not the gatekeeper of spending time with one's kids - but unfortunately family law is so backwards and lopsided that that's the way it ends up being in so many divorce cases. Keep statements like this up and wonder why men hate you.

 

[RustedFox]

I am not a marriage counselor or have much if any answers. The only advice I can give people (which my wife agrees) is Most if not all women are crazy. You have to find the mildly crazy ones who can understand what is important and not make an issue out of what is not.

If you marry a really crazy one, you are screwed. Heed the warning signs. If you see a red flag, really consider ending the relationship or you are doomed.

My wife is an angel to deal with me. I don't communicate well, never have but doing alittle better. I just don't care to discuss small matter nor do I have empathy for small issues. She has learned to accept it and I do not mean anything when I don't care that her Friends son lost his job.

Find someone who doesn't want to change you but accept your negatives.

Funny... my wife agrees with this statement, too.
It was (past tense) a matter of contention between us for a bit.

She has a habit of hearing generalized criticism, then figuratively sharpening it into a blade and pointing it at her own neck.
For a good bit, she was very much hard on me, calling me misogynist and all that.
I broke it down for her one day:
"The reason I am with you is because you are 2.5 standard deviations or more better than the average woman. Most are total NPCs who only consider themselves and their immediate surroundings."
We just went out for her birthday. Got a hotel, she went for a spa treatment (I didn't; nobody is wrapping palm leaves around my feet and putting cucumber slices in my eyes, bro), we got a room with a high balcony, ate great food. We didn't leave the resort because "we didn't have to".
In our goings about, we could tangentially experience/overhear others. She said to me: "Holy smoke. You're so right about the average woman being absolutely unable to see more than what she is immediately interested in at that very moment. I feel so bad for these men."

 

[Splenda88]

As physicians (both gender), you have a lot to lose, so don't take marriage lightly.

In my opinion, you will be at a high risk of taken advantage of if you marry someone that you met after you become a physician.

 

[hundreddaysoff]

"The reason I am with you is because you are 2.5 standard deviations or more better than the average woman. Most are total NPCs who only consider themselves and their immediate surroundings."

Yes, I think this is the secret to entering a good marriage. And further, to realize that if she is not 2.5 standard deviations better right now, things are not set in stone and she may become so, if she has the right baseline characteristics. As a team effort, involving soul in the game all around.

And I think this is a two-way street. Women are completely justified in assuming and asking the same of men.

 

[addoncase]

Do you want kids? Do you have a deep desire for being a parent?

How is money used in the relationship? Are the bills split is one person a spender and the other a saver

How are her thoughts on a nanny?

Many regret parenthood it isn’t something to tread lightly

I do want a child I’m not sure about a deep desire but I’m also not the youngest person I don’t want my kid graduating hs and me being 70 lol

As for the money question
She typically pays for the groceries during the week. She’s a great cook and because she works from home she has a lot more time and flexibility about when to go to the grocery store and to get fresh ingredients for food and to eat healthy. If we do go to the grocery store or Costco on weekends, then I pay. I can’t cook for the life of me, but I do help out by cleaning up after.
I don’t mind paying for groceries honestly because it’s a lot of work to cook all the time
And to try and meal plan and prep, I understand.
And when we go out which can vary sometimes it’s multiple times a week sometimes it’s just once a week I typically will be paying for it 95% of the time and if I ask her to pay for it once in a blue moon she gives me a look like I do other cooking etc why . why do I have to pay, and to avoid arguments I just end up paying it

I’m realizing a lot of the time I just end up with going with whatever she says because she will make an argument about it and I don’t like argument or maybe I’m not a good at them.

When we started dating initially, we were paying for our own places and we were long distance. Most recently since moving I have been paying the rent 90% of the time since I have become Attending, and this rent is not cheap it’s about 22% of my take home income.

This also has been a source of discussion between us about the best way to save, and the best way to split finances. She insists on having a joint account where all our money goes into after taxes and from the joint account she wants the money to be sent out to different accounts for example, for a house mortgage, etc.

She also insist that I should be paying 75% of the mortgage when we buy a house and she should only pay 25% because I earn more money. In terms of my own personal finance, I barely have much saved up from being in training, and of course, going to a medical school, which has me in hundreds of thousands of dollars debt. She has been earning decent money for a while and has a decent retirement and money saved up.

I pay for electricity and internet, she pays for water.

I am not frugal. I have bought a lot of nice things for her, as a way of showing my appreciation for all that she does for us in the relationship. When we were getting engaged, she wanted a specific type of ring, which was of course expensive, but I made it happen. I ended up working a lot extra in residency, taking on extra moonlighting shifts to bring in more money. Then she wanted a specific wedding band etc

I know it varies from couple a couple, but what is a good way to do finances?

A nanny is something that we will need at some point that’s for sure.

 

[addoncase]

If a puppy was "hard" for her, I can't imagine what a child will do.

Not gonna analyze your marriage based off a few posts, just offer what I perceive to be wisdom based off my experience:

I wish I paid attention to and acted on what turned out to be significant red flags with my ex wife before we were married. Your "gut" is a hind brain instinct that has evolved over millennia to prevent you from getting fuxxored. Do not intellectualize away what your gut tells you.

The first couple of months with the puppy was hard definitely especially with potty training. My wife works from home so she had to deal with the brunt of it granted, when I came back from work, I would take care of the puppy since she had been taken care of him the whole day, and it is tiring when they are small, I understand.

It was a source of arguments at some points no doubt, and through this experience she did end up saying things like “ this is why you’ll be a bad parent” which I think is a very bad thing to say to someone.

I recently asked her about this because we had another argument about some thing, and she said I don’t remember saying that to you.

I try to be reasonable and not bring
Up things to argue about but sometimes it’s damned if I do damned if I don’t
I can’t seem to do anything right sometimes

 

[addoncase]

I am not a marriage counselor or have much if any answers. The only advice I can give people (which my wife agrees) is Most if not all women are crazy. You have to find the mildly crazy ones who can understand what is important and not make an issue out of what is not.

If you marry a really crazy one, you are screwed. Heed the warning signs. If you see a red flag, really consider ending the relationship or you are doomed.

My wife is an angel to deal with me. I don't communicate well, never have but doing alittle better. I just don't care to discuss small matter nor do I have empathy for small issues. She has learned to accept it and I do not mean anything when I don't care that her Friends son lost his job.

Find someone who doesn't want to change you but accept your negatives.

You sound like me esp the part about not caring about small things lol

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

The first couple of months with the puppy was hard definitely especially with potty training. My wife works from home so she had to deal with the brunt of it granted, when I came back from work, I would take care of the puppy since she had been taken care of him the whole day, and it is tiring when they are small, I understand.

It was a source of arguments at some points no doubt, and through this experience she did end up saying things like “ this is why you’ll be a bad parent” which I think is a very bad thing to say to someone.

I recently asked her about this because we had another argument about some thing, and she said I don’t remember saying that to you.

I try to be reasonable and not bring
Up things to argue about but sometimes it’s damned if I do damned if I don’t
I can’t seem to do anything right sometimes

1) She's gaslighting you. "I don't remember saying that."

2) it seems like she's lost respect for you.

3) "this is why you'll be a bad parent" fulfill her prophecy and get out

 

[addoncase]

1) She's gaslighting you. "I don't remember saying that."

2) it seems like she's lost respect for you.

idk she has asked for a divorce
before , I can’t tell if she is serious or not but then when I ask her about it

You want to buy a house and have kid one day. And the next day you are asking for divorce

Then she says I’m not asking for a divorce

Then we go on being fine for a while and then rinse and repeat she will get pissed about something and then it goes into another argument , She says I don’t communicate enough or Talk about anything important,

It’s like she wants to get
My attention with the divorce word idk

We don’t argume
Nearly as much as we used to things have gotten better since we moved closer to her Freind and family I think that’s given her an outlet to be social.
She is a lot more social person too, me not so much but I know that’s how she is so I made it a point to be closer to these friends and family so she can be happy

The phrase happy wife and happy life man who knew such a phrase was so real

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

I hate to give one size fits all advice, but none of this is good.

Does she have opposite sex friends that she hangs out with?

Does she go out for "girls night"?

 

[addoncase]

I hate to give one size fits all advice, but none of this is good.

Does she have opposite sex friends that she hangs out with?

Does she go out for "girls night"?

No she only hangs out with her girlfriends, they are moms too
Or they come and visit us here

 

[RustedFox]

idk she has asked for a divorce
before , I can’t tell if she is serious or not but then when I ask her about it

You want to buy a house and have kid one day. And the next day you are asking for divorce

Then she says I’m not asking for a divorce

Then we go on being fine for a while and then rinse and repeat she will get pissed about something and then it goes into another argument , She says I don’t communicate enough or Talk about anything important,

It’s like she wants to get
My attention with the divorce word idk

We don’t argume
Nearly as much as we used to things have gotten better since we moved closer to her Freind and family I think that’s given her an outlet to be social.
She is a lot more social person too, me not so much but I know that’s how she is so I made it a point to be closer to these friends and family so she can be happy

The phrase happy wife and happy life man who knew such a phrase was so real

Its borderline personality disorder until proven otherwise.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Tbh I would make sure that she is really hanging out with friends and family and not doing something else.

 

[sloh]

I do want a child I’m not sure about a deep desire but I’m also not the youngest person I don’t want my kid graduating hs and me being 70 lol

As for the money question
She typically pays for the groceries during the week. She’s a great cook and because she works from home she has a lot more time and flexibility about when to go to the grocery store and to get fresh ingredients for food and to eat healthy. If we do go to the grocery store or Costco on weekends, then I pay. I can’t cook for the life of me, but I do help out by cleaning up after.
I don’t mind paying for groceries honestly because it’s a lot of work to cook all the time
And to try and meal plan and prep, I understand.
And when we go out which can vary sometimes it’s multiple times a week sometimes it’s just once a week I typically will be paying for it 95% of the time and if I ask her to pay for it once in a blue moon she gives me a look like I do other cooking etc why . why do I have to pay, and to avoid arguments I just end up paying it

I’m realizing a lot of the time I just end up with going with whatever she says because she will make an argument about it and I don’t like argument or maybe I’m not a good at them.

When we started dating initially, we were paying for our own places and we were long distance. Most recently since moving I have been paying the rent 90% of the time since I have become Attending, and this rent is not cheap it’s about 22% of my take home income.

This also has been a source of discussion between us about the best way to save, and the best way to split finances. She insists on having a joint account where all our money goes into after taxes and from the joint account she wants the money to be sent out to different accounts for example, for a house mortgage, etc.

She also insist that I should be paying 75% of the mortgage when we buy a house and she should only pay 25% because I earn more money. In terms of my own personal finance, I barely have much saved up from being in training, and of course, going to a medical school, which has me in hundreds of thousands of dollars debt. She has been earning decent money for a while and has a decent retirement and money saved up.

I pay for electricity and internet, she pays for water.

I am not frugal. I have bought a lot of nice things for her, as a way of showing my appreciation for all that she does for us in the relationship. When we were getting engaged, she wanted a specific type of ring, which was of course expensive, but I made it happen. I ended up working a lot extra in residency, taking on extra moonlighting shifts to bring in more money. Then she wanted a specific wedding band etc

I know it varies from couple a couple, but what is a good way to do finances?

A nanny is something that we will need at some point that’s for sure.

Bro. Reading your posts your lady sounds like a liability through and through. Cooking? This is easy for a man to do. Get shredded, dump her and cut your losses, move on. Plenty of better women to choose from now you’re an attending.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

First red flag was wanting an expensive ring.

 

[addoncase]

Tbh I would make sure that she is really hanging out with friends and family and not doing something else.

She is , I am there the majority of the time as aswell

 

[CoolDoc1729]

idk she has asked for a divorce
before , I can’t tell if she is serious or not but then when I ask her about it

You want to buy a house and have kid one day. And the next day you are asking for divorce

Then she says I’m not asking for a divorce

Then we go on being fine for a while and then rinse and repeat she will get pissed about something and then it goes into another argument , She says I don’t communicate enough or Talk about anything important,

It’s like she wants to get
My attention with the divorce word idk

We don’t argume
Nearly as much as we used to things have gotten better since we moved closer to her Freind and family I think that’s given her an outlet to be social.
She is a lot more social person too, me not so much but I know that’s how she is so I made it a point to be closer to these friends and family so she can be happy

The phrase happy wife and happy life man who knew such a phrase was so real

Yikes

 

[RustedFox]

1) She's gaslighting you. "I don't remember saying that."

A lot of times, they really "won't remember saying that" because they dissociate as a defense mechanism.

If you hear the term "complex post traumatic stress disorder", it's really just Borderline, renamed to sound nicer.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

This also has been a source of discussion between us about the best way to save, and the best way to split finances. She insists on having a joint account where all our money goes into after taxes and from the joint account she wants the money to be sent out to different accounts for example, for a house mortgage, etc.

She also insist that I should be paying 75% of the mortgage when we buy a house and she should only pay 25% because I earn more money. In terms of my own personal finance, I barely have much saved up from being in training, and of course, going to a medical school, which has me in hundreds of thousands of dollars debt. She has been earning decent money for a while and has a decent retirement and money saved up.

I've got the solution to all your problems:

Tell her you will open this joint account, but the first expense that will come out of it will be your student loan payments--on an aggressive payment plan (I'm talking one year or less). The second expense will be couples counseling for one year. There will also be no big life decisions (baby, moving, etc.) and no big purchases (house, car, etc.).

In a year you'll either be happily married and in a better financial place, or happily divorced and in a better financial place.

 

[RustedFox]

I've got the solution to all your problems:

Tell her you will open this joint account, but the first expense that will come out of it will be your student loan payments--on an aggressive payment plan (I'm talking one year or less). The second expense will be couples counseling for one year. There will also be no big life decisions (baby, moving, etc.) and no big purchases (house, car, etc.).

In a year you'll either be happily married and in a better financial place, or happily divorced and in a better financial place.

Noble; although I feel you're putting too much trust in it.
a JOINT account is one that you BOTH contribute to in equal or at least proportionate amounts.
No contribution from her? No joint account. Hard stop, no.
Having ALL of the money put in? Hard stop, no.

@addoncase : Bro, I would take a hard stance on this. Re-read my above post about joint accounts.
I've been married for 8 years.
We still have no joint account.
She can make her own money.
She can spend her own money; and needs to acknowledge that shared needs get shared expenses.

 

[Groove]

@addoncase Man...your stories take me back and remind me so much of my first marriage. I can remember feeling trapped with someone whom I had so many doubts about long term compatibility. The fights, the loneliness, the self doubt. The inability to see the relationship objectively. Decision paralysis about what to do for myself. Is leaving this person an inherently selfish act? Is is selfish to want personal happiness? Would having a kid make things better? Is it me? Is it her?

Hang in there buddy. Do some soul searching. DO NOT have a child with this woman until you two are in a much happier place. In the end...I'm just not convinced anything you do is going to change the trajectory of what sounds like an ultimately futile partnership. Not a day goes by where I'm not overwhelmingly grateful and relieved to be out of my first marriage. I mean, ZERO regrets. I'm in such a happier place these days with my current spouse.

And remember...just because you CAN have a kid, doesn't mean you SHOULD have a kid. I get the whole biological clock thing (men and women) but sometimes its just not meant to be and the alternative of thrusting a kid between two incompatible individuals is not only cruel to the child but cruel to both of you as well. In the end, I chose to be happy and leave my first marriage and in doing so, lost a lot of time until I found someone who was really compatible with me. By that time, I was getting too old for kids and at this point...definitely would NOT want to be having kids at my age. Luckily, she doesn't want any either and she's getting past the point where it would be easy in the first place. So, we decided to always have the furry variety in the house. It's not quite the same but we shower attention on our pups just like we'd do for our own. It's not the end of the world. Good luck to you man!

 

[addoncase]

@addoncase Man...your stories take me back and remind me so much of my first marriage. I can remember feeling trapped with someone whom I had so many doubts about long term compatibility. The fights, the loneliness, the self doubt. The inability to see the relationship objectively. Decision paralysis about what to do for myself. Is leaving this person an inherently selfish act? Is is selfish to want personal happiness? Would having a kid make things better? Is it me? Is it her?

Hang in there buddy. Do some soul searching. DO NOT have a child with this woman until you two are in a much happier place. In the end...I'm just not convinced anything you do is going to change the trajectory of what sounds like an ultimately futile partnership. Not a day goes by where I'm not overwhelmingly grateful and relieved to be out of my first marriage. I mean, ZERO regrets. I'm in such a happier place these days with my current spouse.

And remember...just because you CAN have a kid, doesn't mean you SHOULD have a kid. I get the whole biological clock thing (men and women) but sometimes its just not meant to be and the alternative of thrusting a kid between two incompatible individuals is not only cruel to the child but cruel to both of you as well. In the end, I chose to be happy and leave my first marriage and in doing so, lost a lot of time until I found someone who was really compatible with me. By that time, I was getting too old for kids and at this point...definitely would NOT want to be having kids at my age. Luckily, she doesn't want any either and she's getting past the point where it would be easy in the first place. So, we decided to always have the furry variety in the house. It's not quite the same but we shower attention on our pups just like we'd do for our own. It's not the end of the world. Good luck to you man!

It’s like you know exactly what’s going on in my head.. just reading this

AThey say marriage is hard, divorce is harder and I wonder about the stigma about trying to get into another relationship after going through a divorce. Is it going to be any different another time I have no idea. Maybe I can’t gauge women in terms of how crazy they can be.

I think we need some therapy to figure out things, it’s not always bad and I know nap marriage is perfect by any mean's. I Wish I had known more before hand but I was busy in residency just trying to survive, and I should have done the soul searching long ago. I wish I had spoken with people, but to be honest I don’t have anyone to discuss with

 

[addoncase]

I've got the solution to all your problems:

Tell her you will open this joint account, but the first expense that will come out of it will be your student loan payments--on an aggressive payment plan (I'm talking one year or less). The second expense will be couples counseling for one year. There will also be no big life decisions (baby, moving, etc.) and no big purchases (house, car, etc.).

In a year you'll either be happily married and in a better financial place, or happily divorced and in a better financial place.

Noble; although I feel you're putting too much trust in it.
a JOINT account is one that you BOTH contribute to in equal or at least proportionate amounts.
No contribution from her? No joint account. Hard stop, no.
Having ALL of the money put in? Hard stop, no.

@addoncase : Bro, I would take a hard stance on this. Re-read my above post about joint accounts.
I've been married for 8 years.
We still have no joint account.
She can make her own money.
She can spend her own money; and needs to acknowledge that shared needs get shared expenses.

How do you split expenses like groceries, going out, mortgage or rent, gas)

Anytime if I am there, she insists I pay
Whether it’s groceries, gas, Costco, eating out, door dash whatever it is

If I raise a stink once in a while she will pay

Do you have multiple savings accounts and you deposit money into it each month?

Groceries and things vary in cost month to month so how do you decide how much to put in?

Does one person pay and the other puts half into the shares account for that category?
One pays 100 bucks for groceries other person puts in 50?

Things like rent are more consistent month to month to figure out how much to put

So far it’s just been me or her paying as we go along for groceries, if I am there it’s def me paying the majority of the time, she did pay more freq when I was a resident but I still contributed a lot.

What is a fair proportion to put in?
I read some say it’s a percent of income others say it’s a fixed value
Some just combine all their finances
There is so much variability,

I agree with your remarks! She has been making and earning money much longer than me for sure,
If it’s about sharing in marriage do you think she would care to help with my med school debt which is steep?


And besides the interest rates for houses are high atm

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

How do you split expenses like groceries, going out, mortgage or rent, gas)

Anytime if I am there, she insists I pay
Whether it’s groceries, gas, Costco, eating out, door dash whatever it is

If I raise a stink once in a while she will pay

Do you have multiple savings accounts and you deposit money into it each month?

Groceries and things vary in cost month to month so how do you decide how much to put in?

Does one person pay and the other puts half into the shares account for that category?
One pays 100 bucks for groceries other person puts in 50?

Things like rent are more consistent month to month to figure out how much to put

So far it’s just been me or her paying as we go along for groceries, if I am there it’s def me paying the majority of the time, she did pay more freq when I was a resident but I still contributed a lot.

What is a fair proportion to put in?
I read some say it’s a percent of income others say it’s a fixed value
Some just combine all their finances
There is so much variability,

There's no right way to go about it. My wife and I have a single joint account for everything. I personally find it less stressful than having to figure out percentages and proportions. It's worked out well for the near decade we've been married. It helps that neither of us is materialistic or has expensive hobbies.

In your case, given the state of your marriage, it probably makes sense to continue to keep things separate. Somewhere between 50:50 and percentage-based sounds reasonable to me. However if you go the route of calculating based on percentages, do it based on your income after accounting for an aggressive loan repayment plan. You should not be subsidizing any luxuries at the expense of your loans.

I agree with your remarks! She has been making and earning money much longer than me for sure,
If it’s about sharing in marriage do you think she would care to help with my med school debt which is steep?

If she wants to combine finances, that means sharing incomes and sharing debts too. The first priority then should be getting rid of your (now joint) med school debt. Only your wife can tell you if she's up for it, but based on your posts, it doesn't sound like she would be.

 

[RustedFox]

How do you split expenses like groceries, going out, mortgage or rent, gas)

Mortgage and bills were on me this year, because she rage-quit a job (with my full support) in February and took time to pursue courses in machine learning, AI, and other computer/mathematical items that I can't even understand. Her job was six-figures, and got us both health insurance and other benefits. Its worth mentioning that after she rage-quit that job, that the entire department was dissolved after a departmental Exodus that she was essentially the pied-piper of. While I was not working (I walked away from medicine for 8 months in 2020), she picked up the slack. We will return to pretty much a 50/50 split (or something highly similar, depending on her benefits package) when she starts her new job; she's reviewing offers now.

Anytime if I am there, she insists I pay
Whether it’s groceries, gas, Costco, eating out, door dash whatever it is

If I raise a stink once in a while she will pay

Is your wife the new Marvel Superhero; RedFlag Girl? I remember a time where my wife had nothing positive to say about me or the work that I did. Reviewing the finances and suggesting changes to reflect her accusations got her to change her tune quickly. I think I said something along the lines of: "If you think I act like some loser, Al Bundy style slob, then I'll act like one and won't pay for x-y-and-z. You can pay for it all."

Do you have multiple savings accounts and you deposit money into it each month?

Eff no. No shared bank account. Period. If I remember correctly; your wife makes six figures? Cool. She can pay for things too, you know.

Groceries and things vary in cost month to month so how do you decide how much to put in?

Groceries? Come on, man - don't quibble over trivial amounts. Our personal arrangement has been: "I'll bring home the bacon, you fry it in a pan" (she worked as a chef and is from a family of restaurateurs; I'm calling it even when I eat amazingly tasty things that she makes. I just ate a serving of a dessert that she makes that I call "Mexican Toast Crunch". I want to give everyone on SDN a piece and watch the looks that I get 5 seconds after the first bite. Imagine the taste of cinnamon toast crunch... in a layered cheesecake... with HEAT... that slow burn after about 8-13 chews. Yeah, hun. That's worth it. Groceries are all bought on a single credit card that I can review at any point. Not once in 8 years has she ever abused that. I don't consume any alcohol as a (non-religious) rule. She wants booze? She pays for it. Our grocery bill is also remarkably small save for some small luxury items (rare cheeses and topo chico waters, I'm looking at you).

Does one person pay and the other puts half into the shares account for that category?
One pays 100 bucks for groceries other person puts in 50?

Things like rent are more consistent month to month to figure out how much to put

So far it’s just been me or her paying as we go along for groceries, if I am there it’s def me paying the majority of the time, she did pay more freq when I was a resident but I still contributed a lot.

See above.

What is a fair proportion to put in?
I read some say it’s a percent of income others say it’s a fixed value
Some just combine all their finances
There is so much variability,

That's for each couple to decide; but the answer is NEVER "I put in 100% and you put in 0%". That's the dumbest way imaginable.

I agree with your remarks! She has been making and earning money much longer than me for sure,
If it’s about sharing in marriage do you think she would care to help with my med school debt which is steep?

If it's about sharing in marriage... nothing that you have said so far indicates that she wants to share anything with you. She just wants what you earned, and to keep what she earned. There's nothing equitable about that.

And besides the interest rates for houses are high atm

Yeah, but this isn't the spot to hate economics and that.

 

[dchristismi]

A divorce isn't the end of the world.
I'm a woman, and my first husband, who was my high school sweetheart who I had known since we were kids, became an alcoholic, contributing NOTHING once I started residency, and I ended up leaving him (or rather, kicked him out) shortly after I became an attending. There were a fabric-store of red flags, but I had "invested" so much time in the relationship, I thought I could save it. Or him. But I couldn't.

Long, painful story short, I couldn't because I can only change my own response to things.

So I paid both of our lawyer fees, 4 or 5 years of alimony (I can't remember how long exactly - I think it was 4 years of COBRA and 5 years of alimony, but it was a long time ago) at 4K a month. When he asked for more, ie half of my retirement savings, my lawyer offered half of my student loans and his lawyer backed down. I am so thankful we never had children. We were together for 16 years, married for 11. And he's dead from his disease now.

I remarried, and even though we've been together for over 10 years, we still have totally separate finances, partly because my husband's first wife did the same thing to him.

If something happens to him, I think I shall just be a dog/cat-lady.

 

[addoncase]

A divorce isn't the end of the world.
I'm a woman, and my first husband, who was my high school sweetheart who I had known since we were kids, became an alcoholic, contributing NOTHING once I started residency, and I ended up leaving him (or rather, kicked him out) shortly after I became an attending. There were a fabric-store of red flags, but I had "invested" so much time in the relationship, I thought I could save it. Or him. But I couldn't.

Long, painful story short, I couldn't because I can only change my own response to things.

So I paid both of our lawyer fees, 4 or 5 years of alimony (I can't remember how long exactly - I think it was 4 years of COBRA and 5 years of alimony, but it was a long time ago) at 4K a month. When he asked for more, ie half of my retirement savings, my lawyer offered half of my student loans and his lawyer backed down. I am so thankful we never had children. We were together for 16 years, married for 11. And he's dead from his disease now.

I remarried, and even though we've been together for over 10 years, we still have totally separate finances, partly because my husband's first wife did the same thing to him.

If something happens to him, I think I shall just be a dog/cat-lady.

Thank you for giving your perspective. It’s nice to hear people’s views.
My wife has done a lot for me and she is supportive the majority of the time but at times we get into these arguments and she says some real messed up stuff as I have mentioned here. Sometimes she is very bossy in these arguments and refuses to see any other way or seems to have the perfect answer every time I bring someone thing up.
We are both from a culture that doesn’t really divorce either.

my understanding is because the student debt was incurred before marriage, it’s all my own debt from a legal perspective?

What about post nup thoughts on that?

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

It’s like you know exactly what’s going on in my head.. just reading this

AThey say marriage is hard, divorce is harder and I wonder about the stigma about trying to get into another relationship after going through a divorce. Is it going to be any different another time I have no idea. Maybe I can’t gauge women in terms of how crazy they can be.

I think we need some therapy to figure out things, it’s not always bad and I know nap marriage is perfect by any mean's. I Wish I had known more before hand but I was busy in residency just trying to survive, and I should have done the soul searching long ago. I wish I had spoken with people, but to be honest I don’t have anyone to discuss with

Regarding dating after divorce:

If you don't have kids, you don't need to tell them you were ever married, until it gets serious.

However...being a dad was wayyyy more of a boon than I thought it would be in the dating world! Obviously there's gonna be some people who are turned away, but physician + dad + reasonably good physique = women will be tripping over themselves to date you. They might not be the ones you want but that's a separate issue lol.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Thank you for giving your perspective. It’s nice to hear people’s views.
My wife has done a lot for me and she is supportive the majority of the time but at times we get into these arguments and she says some real messed up stuff as I have mentioned here. Sometimes she is very bossy in these arguments and refuses to see any other way or seems to have the perfect answer every time I bring someone thing up.
We are both from a culture that doesn’t really divorce either.

my understanding is because the student debt was incurred before marriage, it’s all my own debt from a legal perspective?

What about post nup thoughts on that?

Sounds like she doesn't know "how to fight."

You might benefit from a discussion regarding healthy fighting boundaries.

Post nups are cool, but you literally have zero leverage right now.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Regarding dating after divorce:

If you don't have kids, you don't need to tell them you were ever married, until it gets serious.

However...being a dad was wayyyy more of a boon than I thought it would be in the dating world! Obviously there's gonna be some people who are turned away, but physician + dad + reasonably good physique = women will be tripping over themselves to date you. They might not be the ones you want but that's a separate issue lol.

Damnit, guess I'm stuck.

 

[addoncase]

Idk I missed major chapter in growing I think
How did I end up in this situation 😂

Those with sibling sister and brothers
Do you talk about this stuff with them?
Like is this normal within the realm of crazy. Vs this is too much a outlier

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Idk I missed major chapter in growing I think
How did I end up in this situation 😂

Those with sibling sister and brothers
Do you talk about this stuff with them?
Like is this normal within the realm of crazy. Vs this is too much a outlier

Dude, you're not an outlier.

marriage rate - divorce rate - (cheaper to keep her + staying together for the kids + too poor to divorce) = happy marriage rate.

Spoiler alert: this is exceedingly low

Relationships in teens and 20s are often based on hormones and "feelings" aka "how hot are they?" Usually leads to disaster. Once you make this mistake a few times, some people learn that lasting relationships are based on safety, stability, respect aka good partner vibes.

 

[RustedFox]

Idk I missed major chapter in growing I think
How did I end up in this situation 😂

Those with sibling sister and brothers
Do you talk about this stuff with them?
Like is this normal within the realm of crazy. Vs this is too much a outlier

Hey, everyone can change. My wife had to make some big changes. Big ones. Years of therapy ones.
She did.

 

[addoncase]

Dude, you're not an outlier.

marriage rate - divorce rate - (cheaper to keep her + staying together for the kids + too poor to divorce) = happy marriage rate.

Spoiler alert: this is exceedingly low

Relationships in teens and 20s are often based on hormones and "feelings" aka "how hot are they?" Usually leads to disaster. Once you make this mistake a few times, some people learn that lasting relationships are based on safety, stability, respect aka good partner vibes.

marriage rate - divorce rate - (cheaper to keep her + staying together for the kids + too poor to divorce) = happy marriage rate.

Wow not a great equation lol

majorly of 20s was spent as you know working towards med school, med school, residency etc

 

[addoncase]

Hey, everyone can change. My wife had to make some big changes. Big ones. Years of therapy ones.
She did.

Wow do you mind explaining more if you are ok w it?

Asking for a friend here 😝

Also what kind of therapist do i look for, marriage counseling ?

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

You need to find someone who takes a true analytical or CBT approach.

Talk therapy from some LCSW is useless.

Be prepared to pay $$$.

 

[addoncase]

Also everyone should I ask about splitting the costs for Spotify ? 😂 jk jk

 

[RustedFox]

You need to find someone who takes a true analytical or CBT approach.

Talk therapy from some LCSW is useless.

Be prepared to pay $$$.

I saw a guy for a few years. Cash pay; but not an insane rate.
The money was amazingly well spent.
Therapy is all about "fit" between you and the therapist.
My guy was a Marine. Got me to knock off my own nonsense.
Therapy is really about that.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Dude, you're not an outlier.

marriage rate - divorce rate - (cheaper to keep her + staying together for the kids + too poor to divorce) = happy marriage rate.

Spoiler alert: this is exceedingly low

Relationships in teens and 20s are often based on hormones and "feelings" aka "how hot are they?" Usually leads to disaster. Once you make this mistake a few times, some people learn that lasting relationships are based on safety, stability, respect aka good partner vibes.

Its exceedingly low on a population basis.

As physicians our divorce rate is on the lower side, around 22% (the lowest field is actuaries at 17% for context).

It also helps some of us that female physicians are way more likely to get divorced than male (OR 1.5), so if you're a male physician your divorce rate is a good bit lower than 22%.

Income matters too. Lowest divorce rates are on incomes above 200k which should be every physician.

Age is also a factor. Getting married between 25-32 seems to be the sweet spot.

Having a degree beyond a bachelors also results in the lowest divorce rates.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I saw a guy for a few years. Cash pay; but not an insane rate.
The money was amazingly well spent.
Therapy is all about "fit" between you and the therapist.
My guy was a Marine. Got me to knock off my own nonsense.
Therapy is really about that.

And I think this is key. A successful marriage takes work. Not always therapy-level work, but you can't just coast and expect things to always work out well (not accusing anyone here of doing this).

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I would say that you want to look for one with a PhD. Many therapist/psyd programs are online scams like NP/PA programs. Better to just go straight to a PhD

 

[CoolDoc1729]

Also everyone should I ask about splitting the costs for Spotify ? 😂 jk jk

Do you kind of have a feel for when you can approach her to talk about serious stuff ? At some point you’re going to have to address things like how finances will be divided, when/how many kids, etc.

before we got married my husband and I hashed out that we wanted 2-3 kids (ended up with 4), that we would work out our schedules so one of us was always not working and could be with the kids. He makes much less than I do - I handle all our finances, we have a joint account and I do all our budgeting and bills. He’s horrible at that stuff and doesn’t want to do it. He knows where the list is of where our money is in case I get killed or something because day to day he has no clue.

I’m not saying any of this is the right answer for you and your wife but you sound like you don’t really have a collaborative partnership right now where you can figure out the answer together. Depending on the dynamic you may need a therapist to help navigate these discussions or you may just need to use an offday and have a serious conversation over lunch or something.

And if she tells you she doesn’t want to talk after complaining that you don’t communicate then that’s useful information as well.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Marriage in a nutshell:

Step 1: Don't marry the wrong person.
Step 2: If you find out you married the wrong person, get out.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Wow do you mind explaining more if you are ok w it?

Asking for a friend here 😝

Also what kind of therapist do i look for, marriage counseling ?

You don't know it because you're in the middle of it but you are not in a normal or healthy relationship.

 

[dchristismi]

Of course I talk to my siblings. My sister is my best friend. She knew pretty much everything as first marriage crashed and burned. Now I don't tell her EVERYTHING, but I don't need to.

And therapists are a LOT cheaper than lawyers. From first marriage, I picked one that had a focus on alcoholism, but she turned into MY therapist mostly because he thought he knew everything. Of course, he knew everything at AA too... The ironic thing is that our premarital counselor a decade before said we communicated so well he had nothing to teach us. Ah, well, that's addiction for you.

Marriage is work. Current husband and I talked about a) children b) credit scores and c) veterinarians on our first date. Seriously. Neither of us wanted a repeat of our first marriages. We agreed to split bills a certain way a long time ago, he handles the commercial real estate since he inherited it, I handle the residential. I do the taxes. We split BIG stuff usually 2/3 me, 1/3 him because that's how our earnings break down. But we talk about it.

 

[addoncase]

What about malpractice is it better to keep finances apart in case they want to come after you that way?

 

[emergentmd]

The older I get, the more I start to realize that there is no one way to have marriage or deal with finances. All of the expert gurus are just guidelines. Everyone tells you to have joint accounts but this just doesn't work for our family.

I work, my wife stays at home so one income.

We have separate bank accounts, separate credit card, etc. We rarely talk about money. May sound odd, but she has little interest in finances and trusts me completely to manage/invest. I am financially sound and would never jeopardize our future. I never miss a bill payment. I have tried to discuss our finances/investments but she just doesn't care.

I send her 5K/month to her checking account for spending money and if I see her account getting low, send more $$. 100% of the household expenses comes from my account. She gets freedom to spend on whatever she wants and If I don't know, doesn't bother me. I spend whatever I want, no one ever asks. She wanted a 75K rolex like last summer, I pay for it b/c its our money anyhow.

It is just cleaner but requires two that have complete trust in each other with both always having the best interest of the family first. This is most important.

 

[emergentmd]

As for the money question
She typically pays for the groceries during the week.
I don’t mind paying for groceries honestly because it’s a lot of work to cook all the time

And when we go out which can vary sometimes it’s multiple times a week sometimes it’s just once a week I typically will be paying for it 95% of the time and if I ask her to pay for it once in a blue moon she gives me a look like I do other cooking etc why . why do I have to pay, and to avoid arguments I just end up paying it

When we started dating initially, we were paying for our own places and we were long distance. Most recently since moving I have been paying the rent 90% of the time since I have become Attending, and this rent is not cheap it’s about 22% of my take home income.

This also has been a source of discussion between us about the best way to save, and the best way to split finances. She insists on having a joint account where all our money goes into after taxes and from the joint account she wants the money to be sent out to different accounts for example, for a house mortgage, etc.

She also insist that I should be paying 75% of the mortgage when we buy a house and she should only pay 25% because I earn more money. In terms of my own personal finance, I barely have much saved up from being in training, and of course, going to a medical school, which has me in hundreds of thousands of dollars debt. She has been earning decent money for a while and has a decent retirement and money saved up.

I pay for electricity and internet, she pays for water.

I don't know you and I believe that there is never a right or wrong way to handle family finances but there this just reeks of a dysfunctional way of handling money. This sounds like an unhappy roommate situation and not a marriage. You guys spend more time debating/arguing/creating tension over the smallest amount of money, i don't know where you would find time to do much else. The stress created over even going to dinner and who is paying makes it not even worth going to.

Go get some help but the writing is on the wall. A truly strong marriage only happens when both treat $$$ as both equally regardless of where the actual money lies. I typically carry 80% of Cash in my accounts to her 20% but if she asked me to send over 100K tomorrow, I would do it with little questions asked.

 

[Arcan57]

Thank you for giving your perspective. It’s nice to hear people’s views.
My wife has done a lot for me and she is supportive the majority of the time but at times we get into these arguments and she says some real messed up stuff as I have mentioned here. Sometimes she is very bossy in these arguments and refuses to see any other way or seems to have the perfect answer every time I bring someone thing up.
We are both from a culture that doesn’t really divorce either.

my understanding is because the student debt was incurred before marriage, it’s all my own debt from a legal perspective?

What about post nup thoughts on that?

Are you doing counseling? Preferably with someone that specializes in EFT? Does the messed up stuff only come out during arguments or is there a baseline level of contempt that is present in regular interactions? Does she want a better relationship or does she have both feet out the door and only interacts in order to keep you emotionally distant?

A lot of couples have repetitive conflict where both sides act in a rote way and each person's negative thoughts feeds off their partners responses. In couples that go on to develop intimate and functional relationships, both sides commit to viewing "the cycle" as the enemy rather than each other. Even if this relationship doesn't work out, it's worth figuring out what you bring into the cycle so you can recognize what makes you fall into it and how to avoid suffering and inflicting the damage being in the cycle causes in future relationships.