Being forced to work more due to a divorce

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Not a lawyer but mom and brother are. My understanding is that at least in Florida the spouse is entitled to the lifestyle standard “to which they have become accustomed” and so there are cases where here a devious family lawyer can artificially inflate the lifestyle a person is living they can take quite a bit of money from their spouse in this state.

For example if the wife spent $3000/month on clothes and handbags and has receipts to prove it you could be compelled to either pay that money or have your wages garnished to 1.5x the poverty line. Same with things like car, housing, food, etc.

Not a lawyer. It’s been a while. But I was around for many a lively family debate about the legality of various strategies.
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Incredibly scary stories in this thread. Far more disheartening than any med mal outcome. We're literally talking wage slavery, debtors prison, and a philosophical end to any idea that you were a free autonomous being.

Maddening.
 
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Well at least we can all look forward to the thread in 5 years where @RustedFox has escaped medicine by joining the FFL and now goes by the name RenardRouille. It should make for a good read
 
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HemorrhagicShock said:
Incredibly scary stories in this thread. Far more disheartening than any med mal outcome. We're literally talking wage slavery, debtors prison, and a philosophical end to any idea that you were a free autonomous being.

Maddening.
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Until you get disabled and collect your disability policy. Disability benefits aren't subject to creditors in most states.
 
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Disability can be taken by child support or alimony
 
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I can't help OP b/c lawyers and those who then become judges all are cut from the same cloth. You may be right but you are still wrong.

Anyhow, those who think SAHM is not a good path just haven't found the right person. Meet a good person, who loves kids, who would give of themselves before others and things will work out. Many will disagree but having a SAHM(or dad) who actually enjoys it b/c she cares for the well being of their kids equates to be involved/present which is more than any dollar amount. Pay now or you will pay later but payment typically comes.

I see way too many parents who work, send their kids off to daycare the 1st minute they can, and turn around having/wondering why they don't have a connection with their kids.

15 yrs ago, my wife was making 6 figures and declined a promotion which went to one of her coworkers who now is a CNO of a hospital system. My wife could have ended up being CNO but we talked about the sacrifice of not being home for the kids. Both of us never regretted this one minute and our friends wonder why our kids have grown up well adjusted and close to us. You can not substitute for being present or the security this provides.

Financially we are doing fine providing me with more opportunities because I know the kids are well cared for. Less stress, more time with the kids.

People always tell us they would go crazy being home but its because they don't enjoy or really like their kids. They love them but do not like them.
 
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always.chillin said:
Idk about others but I'd never be okay with a "SAHM." That's an old, outdated concept. People should split responsibilities. Hire a full time nanny for childcare if necessary. Get take out/prepared meals if no time to cook. All that's possible with the second salary assuming they're not working at Burger King. The concept of SAHM is a recipe for depression, laziness, and lack of fulfillment from my experience watching my cousins' moms who are all SAHMs.
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I for one am incredibly lazy by nature and would love to be a stay at home dad full-time... assuming I already have the cash to feed everyone! OTOH, my wife has drunk deeply of the ambition/career Kool-Aid and views it as "self-actualizing" rather than "working harder to make The Man even richer".

Of course there are many merits to both feminism and capitalism. And, I suspect that the best trick the capitalists ever played was to convince half the population to get career ambition and go work full-time.

I also suspect both the trad/lazy types and ambitious types have about the same rate of divorce in the end, but for different reasons. Maybe the numbers prove me wrong?
 
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emergentmd said:
15 yrs ago, my wife was making 6 figures and declined a promotion which went to one of her coworkers who now is a CNO of a hospital system. My wife could have ended up being CNO but we talked about the sacrifice of not being home for the kids. Both of us never regretted this one minute and our friends wonder why our kids have grown up well adjusted and close to us. You can not substitute for being present or the security this provides.
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My mother is a CMO and her kids turned out fine.

I did not find a major difference growing up from mom getting home at 430-5 after work vs picking us up from school at 3 after playing tennis and doing some laundry… but different strokes for different folks.
 
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The major risk with marrying a SAHM is the Russian roulette you are playing if you divorce.

That person has zero income on the books. You will end up supporting them forever through alimony.
 
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A simple trick around it, is go to Vegas (or Atlantic City) and withdraw tons of cash over a weekend from the casino. Don't gamble the cash but said you did (and lost it all). Then hide the cash.
 
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Prenup

Or just give your parents a quarter to a third of your paycheck in cash and have them hold onto it for you in case something like this happens
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Prenup

Or just give your parents a quarter to a third of your paycheck in cash and have them hold onto it for you in case something like this happens
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The parents thing is a great idea. Hopefully you can trust your parents......
 
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ScepticSkeksis said:
A simple trick around it, is go to Vegas (or Atlantic City) and withdraw tons of cash over a weekend from the casino. Don't gamble the cash but said you did (and lost it all). Then hide the cash.
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Dont they have forensic accountants for stuff like this?
Boating accident on the other hand…
 
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ScepticSkeksis said:
A simple trick around it, is go to Vegas (or Atlantic City) and withdraw tons of cash over a weekend from the casino. Don't gamble the cash but said you did (and lost it all). Then hide the cash.
Click to expand...

Attorneys hate this simple trick...
 
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Brigade4Radiant said:
So my friend worked about 180-210 hours a month for his wife because she wanted an extravagant lifestyle it broke him which of course working like that would he has been doing this three years

His wife’s attorney is saying that he must work those hours since that is what he’s capable of. Needless to say he can’t go 50/50 custody of his two kids if he works this

He lives in NYC and he says if he works 120 hours he should be left with 2-3k a month

Has this happened to anyone can they really say the extra you worked is now your standard? The wife doesn’t work

This is three years post residency
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Why would he go to such a length to support someones "extravagant" life-style? Its dumb whether or not you think you'll end up divorced. Especially dumb when you do get divorced. He made his bed when he chose to marry someone who did not want to work and wanted an "extravagant" life style. Choose a better partner, set boundaries, etc. Now, you have to find a good lawyer and a going to pay out the nose for it. I don't feel *that* bad for the guy.
 
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GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
The major risk with marrying a SAHM is the Russian roulette you are playing if you divorce.

That person has zero income on the books. You will end up supporting them forever through alimony.
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Depends on the state.

In Ohio, for instance, alimony can only last 3 years tops. And there are caps on how much the other spouse can get. And it is relatively difficult to qualify for it.

The states that allow unlimited alimony for unlimited time are a joke, and IMHO perpetuating extortion. I read an article recently about a bunch of divorced old ladies in Florida griping that the alimony law is about to change there, and that they won’t get to continue leaching off their now retiring ex husbands that have been paying them out the ass every month for 30-40 years. IMO this is just insane, and morally wrong. Nobody should ever have been allowed to claim part of someone else’s paycheck for almost half a century just because they were once married to them. Get off your duff and get a job.
 
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dozitgetchahi said:
Depends on the state.

In Ohio, for instance, alimony can only last 3 years tops. And there are caps on how much the other spouse can get. And it is relatively difficult to qualify for it.

The states that allow unlimited alimony for unlimited time are a joke, and IMHO perpetuating extortion. I read an article recently about a bunch of divorced old ladies in Florida griping that the alimony law is about to change there, and that they won’t get to continue leaching off their now retiring ex husbands that have been paying them out the ass every month for 30-40 years. IMO this is just insane, and morally wrong. Nobody should ever have been allowed to claim part of someone else’s paycheck for almost half a century just because they were once married to them. Get off your duff and get a job.
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Yeah, this happened.
Alimony laws completely re-written in Florida.
Common DeSantis "W".
The old, insufferable bats who got divorced prior to this law still get to be old and insufferable, however.
 
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GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
I love you bro but you're misinformed.
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I love you too, bro - but there are literally a dozen plus ways for any attorney to parlay the pre-nup into being unenforceable.
Many of these are really pedantic and stilted, but oh-so-common.
Ask me how I know.
 
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RustedFox said:
I love you too, bro - but there are literally a dozen plus ways for any attorney to parlay the pre-nup into being unenforceable.
Many of these are really pedantic and stilted, but oh-so-common.
Ask me how I know.
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How do you know?

And what are the ways?
 
GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
How do you know?

And what are the ways?
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He is right.

It varies somewhat by state (and also by which judge you have), but prenups are far from airtight and basically only govern assets held before the marriage (hence, “prenuptial” agreements). Assets acquired after the marriage are largely fair game in divorce court, and in many states, a prenup only holds water if the marriage is relatively short (in Ohio, for instance, if a marriage is longer than 10-15 years or so, lawyers from the other side will often challenge a prenup and successfully invalidate it, arguing that the length of the marriage effectively made the assets discussed in the prenup joint property). Prenups also can’t delegate child support or custody.

So as you can see, they are not necessarily that useful.
 
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dozitgetchahi said:
He is right.

It varies somewhat by state (and also by which judge you have), but prenups are far from airtight and basically only govern assets held before the marriage (hence, “prenuptial” agreements). Assets acquired after the marriage are largely fair game in divorce court, and in many states, a prenup only holds water if the marriage is relatively short (in Ohio, for instance, if a marriage is longer than 10-15 years or so, lawyers from the other side will often challenge a prenup and successfully invalidate it, arguing that the length of the marriage effectively made the assets discussed in the prenup joint property). Prenups also can’t delegate child support or custody.

So as you can see, they are not necessarily that useful.
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Wife and I do have a prenup. Not sure it is legally valid. But like a MOLST/DNR form, the prenup is still useful as a structure for us to communicate about awful decisions we might have to make under pressure some day.

Eg, who would get the house if we divorced? (A: I buy her out.) Alimony? (A: Yes, but only kicks in after 10 years, and it has intelligent caps and could apply to either of us.) Mediation? (A: YES YES YES NO HOURLY BILLABLE FAMILY LAWYERS PLEASE THEY WILL STEAL MONEY FROM OUR KIDS)

Yes, we threw a little money to a lawyer, but that added a layer of officialness and importance to it that probably make both of us pay more attention to it. Has overall helped our relationship I think.
 
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hundreddaysoff said:
Wife and I do have a prenup. Not sure it is legally valid. But like a MOLST/DNR form, the prenup is still useful as a structure for us to communicate about awful decisions we might have to make under pressure some day.

Eg, who would get the house if we divorced? (A: I buy her out.) Alimony? (A: Yes, but only kicks in after 10 years, and it has intelligent caps and could apply to either of us.) Mediation? (A: YES YES YES NO HOURLY BILLABLE FAMILY LAWYERS PLEASE THEY WILL STEAL MONEY FROM OUR KIDS)

Yes, we threw a little money to a lawyer, but that added a layer of officialness and importance to it that probably make both of us pay more attention to it. Has overall helped our relationship I think.
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Just know that most of what you “agreed to” is legally non binding. Alimony isn’t decided by you and your spouse in this agreement. It’s decided by a judge, under the guidelines of each individual state. And when **** hits the fan in a divorce, rationality and “fair discussion” often are the first things to go out the window. Don’t count on any of this applying if and when a divorce happens.

Oh, and as someone who has been there…family court mediation is almost completely useless. My agreements all had mediation clauses too. The mediators don’t actually have any teeth to enforce anything. If you go to mediation and people don’t agree, you go to court. The lawyers all view mediation as basically a pointless speed bump you pass over on the way to the courtroom.

If a divorce happens, keeping money for your kids is probably the least of your worries. You have to focus on defending yourself against being destitute.

I’ve been married twice, and both my current/second wife and I had horrific previous divorces which still claim a lot of our time/money/energy to this day. Believe me when I tell you that this goes hardcore sideways, fast. Your prenup does very little to protect you against the negative financial, emotional, etc consequences of a trip to family court.
 
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So then it’s best to marry a spouse that is financially literate and have date night since after kids she may decide to stop working
 
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Brigade4Radiant said:
So then it’s best to marry a spouse that is financially literate and have date night since after kids she may decide to stop working
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Ideally, it’s probably just don’t get married considering the divorce rate. Though, I’m pretty sure in some states a long term GF is still entitled to half
 
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Anecdotes are anecdotes.

I hated my ex-wife when we divorced.

We still managed to use a mediator.

We spent a total of approximately 20k between mediating attorney, my attorney and her attorney.

We did not go to court.
 
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Florida law says: "You must go to mediation before litigation" because its so contentious.
 
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Some incredibly sexist overtones coming from the bros in this jawn. Has me not doubting that the woman are likely 100% justified in getting whatever they want from y'all.
 
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carbonizedeyesockets said:
Some incredibly sexist overtones coming from the bros in this jawn. Has me not doubting that the woman are likely 100% justified in getting whatever they want from y'all.
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There are absolutely situations where women who were making very good money have gotten screwed in family court wrt paying money to an ex husband who wasn’t making much money. (In fact, there are studies that indicate that high earning women may get even more screwed in family court than high earning men, if their partner wasn’t making as much money as them.)

It’s not about the genders. It’s about the fact that one spouse shouldn’t be able to use the courts to extort large amounts of capital from the other, just because they were once married.
 
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I have had 3 serious relationships with 2 mature/amicable breakups and wonderful marriage. Was I just lucky? No. Point is guys (and girls) need to take red flags seriously. If you think they are going to change, well they won't.

Just like picking a residency. Pick someone where their negatives you can live with.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
If a divorce happens, keeping money for your kids is probably the least of your worries. You have to focus on defending yourself against being destitute.
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Fair.

Seems to me that just like with patient care, the best defense against a plaintiff going nuclear like this is clear communication, shared goals, and all needs met on all sides. All that stuff that WCI likes to handwave around whenever he advises to avoid divorce.

Easy to say, hard to create and maintain, never 100% controllable.

Wife's parents went through an awful divorce when she was a kid and it still affects her emotionally. Lawyers ended up taking wealth that could've stayed in the family. The way our divorce and custody system is set up is having multigenerational effects. In the unlikely event that we split, I do think we would both keep her experience in mind and would make saner choices than her parents did (both of them).

So, my personal strategy to avoid destitution is:

Plan A: prevention

Plan B: prenup + tattered remains of shared goals

Plan C: Just Roll Over and maximize the amount of money that's kept in the family (even as alimony if we must) rather than fed to lawyers, expert witnesses, etc. May still destitute me, but I think less so (financially, emotionally, spritually) than I would have had I lawyered up and tried to fight.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's often hard to get detailed info about this stuff.
 
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GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
Theft is justified? What a hot take.
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The thing is that it isn't theft according to the law, so not really a hot take, just reality. Know what you're getting yourself into, make things clear, talk it out, be a decent partner and choose a decent partner. I'm in the midst of a divorce myself. We get a long fairly well. We're civil and put our childs needs at the forefront. We help each other out, etc. Have things been contentious? Sure. But we've worked through it. We've been adults.
 
The laws are set up under the assumption that your marriage is a partnership and your spouse is directly supporting your ability to earn a high income which entitles them to more than room and board for the period they are helping you establish your career. Whether that's not actually true for a particular relationship, or it is true and an individual is just too egocentric to appreciate it, doesn't make the law a bad law.

It's amazing we have any forest left with how many crosses some of you build for yourselves...
 
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carbonizedeyesockets said:
The thing is that it isn't theft according to the law, so not really a hot take, just reality. Know what you're getting yourself into, make things clear, talk it out, be a decent partner and choose a decent partner. I'm in the midst of a divorce myself. We get a long fairly well. We're civil and put our childs needs at the forefront. We help each other out, etc. Have things been contentious? Sure. But we've worked through it. We've been adults.
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If you don't think it's theft for the government to take money you earned and give it to someone just because you used to be married to them, you should just roll over and give your ex everything.
 
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DeadCactus said:
The laws are set up under the assumption that your marriage is a partnership and your spouse is directly supporting your ability to earn a high income which entitles them to more than room and board for the period they are helping you establish your career. Whether that's not actually true for a particular relationship, or it is true and an individual is just too egocentric to appreciate it, doesn't make the law a bad law.

It's amazing we have any forest left with how many crosses some of you build for yourselves...
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Yes lifetime alimony and 10k/mo child support are certainly proportionate renumeration for "helping to establish your career" lol whatever that means.

Jeez some of you guys are ****s.

BTW I don't pay either of these, I just have empathy for the people who do.
 
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GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
Yes lifetime alimony and 10k/mo child support are certainly proportionate renumeration for "helping to establish your career" lol whatever that means.

Jeez some of you guys are ****s.

BTW I don't pay either of these, I just have empathy for the people who do.
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Comments like the one you replied to are what I've come to expect from that poster. Commie-city.
 
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DeadCactus said:
The laws are set up under the assumption that your marriage is a partnership and your spouse is directly supporting your ability to earn a high income which entitles them to more than room and board for the period they are helping you establish your career. Whether that's not actually true for a particular relationship, or it is true and an individual is just too egocentric to appreciate it, doesn't make the law a bad law.

It's amazing we have any forest left with how many crosses some of you build for yourselves...
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A partnership would function as a partnership. Most of the time, it ends up being: "One makes the money. The other spends the money, then complains about life being unfulfilled for one reason or another and makes demands."

That's a hard stop there.

Once upon a time, many years ago; my wife complained vociferously that we "DiDn'T eVeN hAvE a JoInT BaNk AcCoUnT."

I said: "A joint bank account would be one where we contribute in equal or proportional fashion, then make shared decisions on how to spend that money for our collective needs. NOT; one puts money in and the other spends it after browbeating the other into agreement. How much would you have put into such an account in the past several years? Zero dollars? Okay, then."

I got a silence and a blank look, like it was some granted thing that everyone just got a joint bank account when they were married and then the wife threw a big enough tantrum where she spent it as she saw fit.

She learned.
 
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RustedFox said:
A partnership would function as a partnership. Most of the time, it ends up being: "One makes the money. The other spends the money, then complains about life being unfulfilled for one reason or another and makes demands."

That's a hard stop there.

Once upon a time, many years ago; my wife complained vociferously that we "DiDn'T eVeN hAvE a JoInT BaNk AcCoUnT."

I said: "A joint bank account would be one where we contribute in equal or proportional fashion, then make shared decisions on how to spend that money for our collective needs. NOT; one puts money in and the other spends it after browbeating the other into agreement. How much would you have put into such an account in the past several years? Zero dollars? Okay, then."

I got a silence and a blank look, like it was some granted thing that everyone just got a joint bank account when they were married and then the wife threw a big enough tantrum where she spent it as she saw fit.

She learned.
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Your privilege is blinding me Fox
 
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