2018-2019 Columbia University Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons

[ginsengreset]

Ngl this is a pretty gross and unacceptable case of nepotism from Columbia (as is expected from an Ivy unfortunately), but in terms of fixing the application process and medical education in general, I’m placing a lot of the blame on governing bodies such as the NBME, AAMC, and others. They’re the ones who make Step 1 and Step 2 cost $600 and $1200, ramp out extraordinarily high costs for ERAS and AMCAS apps, refuse to encourage more transparency in the application process (such as pre screening before sending secondaries to allow unqualified applicants to save money), and probably dozens more sins. Unless the actual government steps in, I don’t see how this changes, as there’s no competition to encourage lower prices and better practices.

I think I recall seeing an article in which the president of the NBME responded to questions about the high cost of Step 1 with something along the lines of "It's only a small fraction of the total cost of med school. You should be grateful for the fact that a test deciding so much of your life only costs $1000."

If anyone has the official link, please do tell, because I'm having trouble finding it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[theKingLT]

I'm not going to lie... I am pretty upset about my post-II rejection.

However... I am even more upset that my classmate was accepted into Vagelos despite having mediocre grades and cheating on her permanent record.... her father is an instructor at Vagelos.... there was never any doubt that she would be accepted.

This process disproportionately rewards people with money and privilege.

Ngl this is a pretty gross and unacceptable case of nepotism from Columbia (as is expected from an Ivy unfortunately), but in terms of fixing the application process and medical education in general, I’m placing a lot of the blame on governing bodies such as the NBME, AAMC, and others. They’re the ones who make Step 1 and Step 2 cost $600 and $1200, ramp out extraordinarily high costs for ERAS and AMCAS apps, refuse to encourage more transparency in the application process (such as pre screening before sending secondaries to allow unqualified applicants to save money), and probably dozens more sins. Unless the actual government steps in, I don’t see how this changes, as there’s no competition to encourage lower prices and better practices.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it an "unacceptable case of nepotism" without knowing more details first. All Theta said was mediocre grades and cheating on permanent record. How mediocre we talking? What kind/extent of cheating? Did Columbia know about the cheating? Maybe @ThetaCC can offer some more info while still preserving anonymity. I think we would all love to hear more

 

[ThetaCC]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it an "unacceptable case of nepotism" without knowing more details first. All Theta said was mediocre grades and cheating on permanent record. How mediocre we talking? What kind/extent of cheating? Did Columbia know about the cheating? Maybe @ThetaCC can offer some more info while still preserving anonymity. I think we would all love to hear more

Mediocre Grades:
Mix of low A’s and B’s in premed courses at Ivy League school. Low course load (~15 credits per semester). Non-premed classes were not particularly demanding (mostly psych). Not terrible obviously, but not outstanding or particularly impressive

Cheating:
I don’t know the exact details of the case, but I do know the following... caught cheating on a lab report (copying or something). Placed on permanent record. Absolutely had to report it on AMCAS so yes Columbia knew. Students with similar cases (relatively common) coming from my school were denied Interviews at most if not all MD schools

 

[theKingLT]

Mediocre Grades:
Mix of low A’s and B’s in premed courses at Ivy League school. Low course load (~15 credits per semester). Non-premed classes were not particularly demanding (mostly psych). Not terrible obviously, but not outstanding or particularly impressive

This is meh. Grades can be made up for by a variety of factors.

Cheating:
I don’t know the exact details of the case, but I do know the following... caught cheating on a lab report (copying or something). Placed on permanent record. Absolutely had to report it on AMCAS so yes Columbia knew. Students with similar cases (relatively common) coming from my school were denied Interviews at most if not all MD schools

This is a big deal. Most adcoms on here say that for cheating like this applicants need multiple years of basically full-time service after ungrad with proven integrity before they can even think of applying and maybe being accepted to a DO school of their app is strong. I imagine your friend didn't have this which makes it a very disappointing story. Shame Columbia admissions

 

[YungMufti]

Of course, it's worth keeping in mind that the med school app process is incredibly performative and for a lot of Top 20s, what they're screening for isn't necessarily just how good/ethical of a doctor they think you'll be, but how much glory/shine you'll add to their reputation in the future.

Fantastic point. Much of our frustration comes from the desire to believe that this process is meritocratic in the first place. Since that ideal is part of a collective cultural myth way deeper than any individual, everyone involved in the process perpetuates it, while, as you say, the element of theater is in fact non-negligible.

Most adcoms on here say that for cheating like this applicants need multiple years of basically full-time service after ungrad with proven integrity before they can even think of applying and maybe being accepted to a DO school of their app is strong.

As I said - the process, or rather, the people in it with authority, since the process itself is inanimate, promote ideals of integrity while simultaneously eroding them. Here we see reports of disingenuous behavior by Columbia adcoms who, I think we can all agree, would in person emphatically eschew any semblance of applicant dishonesty.

 

[weakmadestrong]

I just wanted to say how great it is that these conversations are happening here. Seeing this level of honesty with other applicants is refreshing. After experiencing the "performative" pressure throughout the entire application cycle (and even before), I was super exhausted at the end of it all. And I agree that during undergrad, seeing students with privilege get a leg up in time, opportunities, less stress, etc. was frustrating too. Had to suck it up and do the best I could while fitting in work (and knowing that I'm already incredibly lucky to realistically pursue medicine), but there's a certain air of defeat in having to play the game or comply with the system before you can even think about changing the system.

 

[toottoottoot]

Withdrawing, hope having one less person on the waitlist helps someone on here!

 

[labscience]

Withdrawing, hope having one less person on the waitlist helps someone on here!

bless your soul

 

[themistocles14]

When’s second look?

 

[jrmjrm]

When’s second look?

April 4-5

 

[YungMufti]

I just wanted to say how great it is that these conversations are happening here. Seeing this level of honesty with other applicants is refreshing. After experiencing the "performative" pressure throughout the entire application cycle (and even before), I was super exhausted at the end of it all. And I agree that during undergrad, seeing students with privilege get a leg up in time, opportunities, less stress, etc. was frustrating too. Had to suck it up and do the best I could while fitting in work (and knowing that I'm already incredibly lucky to realistically pursue medicine), but there's a certain air of defeat in having to play the game or comply with the system before you can even think about changing the system.

The air of defeat, as you say, is very real, and I can reassure you that many of us share the feeling, as well as that of appreciation for our many opportunities. I'm reminded of when the jurist-scholar Mawdudi rebuked the likes of Taymiyya by saying that an idealistic and morally grounded legal system cannot be justly instituted until society has progressed to being able to provide for all citizens, thus removing want and motivation for crimes in the first place.

The point I'm trying to make is that we are going to have to lead by example - we need to hold ourselves accountable to ethical standards, and ask to be held accountable by our peers - only then do we have the grounds to hold unethical colleagues accountable. Progress in these dimensions is cultural and as such tends to be generational, it cannot be forced before its time is due. So, let's keep our spirits high and never compromise our integrity. People are great at intuitively detecting duplicity versus integrity and will gravitate toward genuine leaders.

 

[changethegame1234]

the laminated acceptance letter is sweeeet

 

[meronebib]

.

 

[changethegame1234]

Yours was laminated?! Mine came in a Staples plastic sheet protector lol.

Ehh what's the difference? too giddy to care!

 

[weakmadestrong]

I got the sheet protector too. Was pretty excited but then I saw it was info we got on our portals anyway, and then I thought about how plastic isn't biodegradable, and then I got stressed oops

 

[br2pi5]

I got the sheet protector too. Was pretty excited but then I saw it was info we got on our portals anyway, and then I thought about how plastic isn't biodegradable, and then I got stressed oops

bring that environmental justice thinking into medicine, weakmadestrong!

 

[ithrowtofu]

When’s second look?

April 4-5

 

[stickflip723]

Aw shiz it's laminated? Brb gonna run to the mailbox.

Edit: yeah ok, "laminated"

 

[twirl16]

Anyone know when the Facebook group will be made?

 

[meronebib]

.

 

[premed7796]

Does anyone know the dates for the California/San Francisco second look/revisit?

I'm also interested in knowing this! It said in the letter there was info online ? I didn't see anything about it. Do you suspect it would be during the same weekend?

 

[meronebib]

.

 

[ItBeLikeThat]

Got a rejection letter in the mail from them today and it wasn’t laminated... guess I’m not hanging it up on my wall

 

[freedoctor17]

Got a rejection letter in the mail from them today and it wasn’t laminated... guess I’m not hanging it up on my wall

Woah, do they actually send rejection letters in the mail

I'd rather just see an email or the portal update and forget about it...

 

[deleted962973]

Woah, do they actually send rejection letters in the mail

I'd rather just see an email or the portal update and forget about it...

Lmao why would I need a physical reminder of my failure... Columbia chilll

 

[regina_phalange_23]

Can someone explain how Columbia’s financial aid system works?

 

[fling105]

Can someone explain how Columbia’s financial aid system works?

Using the application material you provide (CSS Profile, parent’s tax returns, your tax returns, etc...), Columbia determines your expected family contribution (EFC). They then subtract that from the total cost of attendance. The resulting number is paid for by the Vagelos Scholarship.

Theoretically, no one should graduate with debt. However, if your parents make a healthy living and are not contributing to your medical education, you likely will not benefit at all from Columbia’s financial aid system and will need to take out federal loans for the entire cost of attendance (edit: as with most schools)

Also notable: If your parents are separated/divorced, you still must provide fincancial info for your non-custodial parent—even if they aren’t contributing a dime to support you. This is not the case for some other schools (ex: Yale only asks for custodial parent info)

 

[ithrowtofu]

Is there an accepted student's facebook group?

 

[theKingLT]

Using the application material you provide (CSS Profile, parent’s tax returns, your tax returns, etc...), Columbia determines your expected family contribution (EFC). They then subtract that from the total cost of attendance. The resulting number is paid for by the Vagelos Scholarship.

Theoretically, no one should graduate with debt. However, if your parents make a healthy living and are not contributing to your medical education, you likely will not benefit at all from Columbia’s financial aid system and will need to take out federal loans for the entire cost of attendance (edit: as with most schools)

Also notable: If your parents are separated/divorced, you still must provide fincancial info for your non-custodial parent—even if they aren’t contributing a dime to support you. This is not the case for some other schools (ex: Yale only asks for custodial parent info)

I don't think healthy living is the right phrasing. You or your parents likely need to be very wealthy for you to have to pay full COA

 

[dodolol21]

I don't think healthy living is the right phrasing. You or your parents likely need to be very wealthy for you to have to pay full COA

lol yeah to pay full COA at Columbia your parents would have to be making like 300k if your only child and even more if you've got siblings lol. EFC would have to be 90kish I think

 

[Crossman8]

lol yeah to pay full COA at Columbia your parents would have to be making like 300k if your only child and even more if you've got siblings lol. EFC would have to be 90kish I think

I'm probably not far from that number considering I have "3 parents" even though I haven't received a dime from my dad and stepmom in 15 years. It's pretty unfair that I have to count income from essentially a different family as contributing to me

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

Sometimes it just be like that...
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Puns about usernames aside, it really does feel random sometimes. Almost no one is going to get in everywhere.

One of my advisees got into UCSF, UCLA, VANDY, YALE, HARVARD, UMASS (CA resident!), BU. Did not even get an interview at Columbia, Cornell, Sinai or Penn. So even very accomplished students do not get in everywhere. (And it was not like person bombed the interview here bc did not even get an interview!) Got in everywhere they interviewed - except Mayo - got a "very interested" letter and then waitlisted. Of note, this person had LizzyM 75, from T10 UG, and URIM, and very disadvantaged.

 

[stickflip723]

Using the application material you provide (CSS Profile, parent’s tax returns, your tax returns, etc...), Columbia determines your expected family contribution (EFC). They then subtract that from the total cost of attendance. The resulting number is paid for by the Vagelos Scholarship.

Theoretically, no one should graduate with debt. However, if your parents make a healthy living and are not contributing to your medical education, you likely will not benefit at all from Columbia’s financial aid system and will need to take out federal loans for the entire cost of attendance (edit: as with most schools)

Also notable: If your parents are separated/divorced, you still must provide fincancial info for your non-custodial parent—even if they aren’t contributing a dime to support you. This is not the case for some other schools (ex: Yale only asks for custodial parent info)

Did they do away with the unit loan crap since the Vagelos donation?

 

[meronebib]

.

 

[theKingLT]

I'm probably not far from that number considering I have "3 parents" even though I haven't received a dime from my dad and stepmom in 15 years. It's pretty unfair that I have to count income from essentially a different family as contributing to me

They allow for special circumstances explanations. This is something you should mention. No guarantee it will help, but it's worth a shot

 

[JiffyLube]

I'm not going to lie... I am pretty upset about my post-II rejection.

However... I am even more upset that my classmate was accepted into Vagelos despite having mediocre grades and cheating on her permanent record.... her father is an instructor at Vagelos.... there was never any doubt that she would be accepted.

This process disproportionately rewards people with money and privilege.

Cheating:
I don’t know the exact details of the case, but I do know the following... caught cheating on a lab report (copying or something). Placed on permanent record. Absolutely had to report it on AMCAS so yes Columbia knew. Students with similar cases (relatively common) coming from my school were denied Interviews at most if not all MD schools

College admissions scandal: What we know so far - CNN

Is Columbia going to be added to this list? I wouldn't be surprised

 

[ZFox]

Can someone post the original waitlist message from the portal?

I accepted the waitlist invitation too fast. It would be nice to see what it said. Thx!!

 

[meronebib]

.

 

[stickflip723]

Anyone else having the financial aid website asking for things that IDOC says are already submitted?

 

[Phoebus Apollo]

Anyone else having the financial aid website asking for things that IDOC says are already submitted?

For me it says the documents I submitted have been recieved, but I called a few days back and they said that it can take ~5 days for their office to recieve documents from IDOC.

 

[stickflip723]

For me it says the documents I submitted have been recieved, but I called a few days back and they said that it can take ~5 days for their office to recieve documents from IDOC.

I called the office (it had already been two weeks for me) and they ended up waiving both the things it said it needed...so....all good I guess?

 

[Phoebus Apollo]

I called the office (it had already been two weeks for me) and they ended up waiving both the things it said it needed...so....all good I guess?

Super weird! But that sure sounds promising.

 

[PaypalPayal]

Accepted, but I'll be attending Yale instead.

Hope my spot goes to someone on wait list with same passion for research as me!

Good luck everyone!

 

[fling105]

Accepted, but I'll be attending Yale instead.

Hope my spot goes to someone on wait list with same passion for research as me!

Good luck everyone!

Congrats! Were you accepted off the waitlist just now? If so, did you send a "letter of interest" following the waitlist decision

 

[PaypalPayal]

Congrats! Were you accepted off the waitlist just now? If so, did you send a "letter of interest" following the waitlist decision

No i was accepted same day as everyone else. Just finalized my decision today though.

 

[surfandturf1]

Was there a confirmation email for the waitlist? I cannot find anything that signified an acceptance of the waitlist in my inbox.

 

[younggotti]

Was there a confirmation email for the waitlist? I cannot find anything that signified an acceptance of the waitlist in my inbox.

Waitlist confirmation was on the portal itself

 

[stickflip723]

So are we supposed to get our financial aid packages before second look? Or did I just hallucinate that? It's kinda gonna determine whether or not I go so....

 

[weakmadestrong]

What if by "before Revisit" they meant 4/4 in the AM sneaky

 

[swissnational]

Hey for people who were WL, when do you think offers might start to come out? Do you think there’s any chance that they may start after April 15? Considering that people have to narrow they choices down to 3 at that point.