Hi,
May I know when you received the email? Was this last week or today?
Thanks... I am wondering if they have sent out another round and yet I am not accepted...
2009-2010 Mount Sinai Application Thread
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Hi,
May I know when you received the email? Was this last week or today?
Thanks... I am wondering if they have sent out another round and yet I am not accepted...
Hey docsteve,
I can't give you a perfect answer for this, if you feel it's an opportunity you can't pass up then you shouldn't, but let me give you a few reasons why it makes more sense to take a year off during med school rather than prior to it.
- First, are you sure this is the specialty you want to go into? It's hard to predict at this point for a lot of students and a lot end up changing their minds. That's why many end up taking a year off after their third year because they've already done their clinical rotations, decided on a specialty, and now know for sure that their research will be in the field that they are going into.
- Will you be first author on the research or is it a high impact study? I think the higher you're up on the chain (med student instead of premed) you're more likely to be published first author.
- Doing research as a med student at your home institution, especially if you continue the research for more than just a summer, gives you a huge advantage when applying for residency at your home institution. Mainly because you've made a connection who will fight for you come match time. It's less likely to make such a connection at an outside hospital, especially if it's done prior to med school (where more time has elapsed between the research and applying to residency).
- Research is more enjoyable when you know have more clinical knowledge.
All research is helpful when applying for residency, and yes, it is helpful when applying to a competitive residency (although research is not the main factor - board scores and grades are). If the decision were mine, I would probably rather take a year off during med school than before to gain some of the advantages I listed above.
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I sort of agree with jbz. Research is better done between 3rd and 4th year as a "year" off, just because it gives you an opportunity to do some research once you really decide what specialty interests you.
Also, is it possible to defer a year coming in off the waitlist? Most schools don't allow this. I'm considering doing the same thing, but potentially for a masters degree abroad that doesn't have any particular relevance to any specific specialty, it's much broader and to be honest, not very clinical (but more related to some larger, non-clinical pursuits I'm interested in).
Are you just graduating from college? Why didn't you just wait a year to apply if you were interested in doing research pre-med school? This would have made you a stronger applicant.
Ims1712...I received the email a couple of days ago so hopefully there will be more waitlistees taken. Good Luck!
jbz24...thanks so much for your insights...you made a lot of good points.
I have wanted this particular specialty since I've been about 5 years old (no joke) so I'm fairly confident I'll stick with it (even though I realize it's possible I could change my mind)...But your response made me question the perceived value of research by residency directors..that is, do you think a full year of research at a very top hospital in my field would be looked upon as an advantage or is it only advantageous if I get first authorship (or any authorship) on a journal publication? I ask because I obviously have no guarantee of authorship at this point.
Also, I was thinking/hoping that doing this research at this particular institution for a year might ultimately help me attain a residency at this hospital in the future.
I understand your point about the benefit of taking a research year after 2 years of med school, but do you think that taking a year off at that time is disruptive? Does the gap impede your performance when you return third year?
I also see your point about the advantage of doing research at Sinai, but doesn't that only apply if you want to stay at Sinai for your residency? Also, are you saying that it's easier to get authorship while doing research at Sinai?
mdeast...Thanks for your imput...I'm actually not certain if the deferral is possible coming off waitlist but I did think it was - but my opportunity to do research just came up in the last day or so and I really had not considered taking a year off until this point...also, I did research in the social sciences in college..
jbz24...thanks so much for your insights...you made a lot of good points.
I have wanted this particular specialty since I've been about 5 years old (no joke) so I'm fairly confident I'll stick with it (even though I realize it's possible I could change my mind)...But your response made me question the perceived value of research by residency directors..that is, do you think a full year of research at a very top hospital in my field would be looked upon as an advantage or is it only advantageous if I get first authorship (or any authorship) on a journal publication? I ask because I obviously have no guarantee of authorship at this point.
Also, I was thinking/hoping that doing this research at this particular institution for a year might ultimately help me attain a residency at this hospital in the future.
I understand your point about the benefit of taking a research year after 2 years of med school, but do you think that taking a year off at that time is disruptive? Does the gap impede your performance when you return third year?
I also see your point about the advantage of doing research at Sinai, but doesn't that only apply if you want to stay at Sinai for your residency? Also, are you saying that it's easier to get authorship while doing research at Sinai?
mdeast...Thanks for your imput...I'm actually not certain if the deferral is possible coming off waitlist but I did think it was - but my opportunity to do research just came up in the last day or so and I really had not considered taking a year off until this point...also, I did research in the social sciences in college..
Hey again docsteve,
Residency directors won't care where you do your research. They'll only care about the fact that you are doing research. It definitely looks better to be first author of a paper and looks better if it's published in a good journal (not to say that being a second or third author is bad). The one advantage you might have is that you might be paired up with a top guy in the field, and a connection like that might help. But if you have no guarantee about a publication and it's not with a top doctor (even though at a top hospital in that field), then I would say it's not worth it. Additionally, you could always decide to do research there later on as a med student if you take a year off then.
I would advise against doing things for the sole purpose of attaining residency at one particular institution, especially a competitive one, because there's too many variables to predict a successful match there. Research isn't the key component either, so you could just potentially end up wasting a year. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so I hope you don't take my opinion too blunt. I really like the fact that you are planning ahead, but in the end you may discourage yourself if you set your goals too narrow (matching into one institution).
Most people take a year off to do research after their third year (clinical rotation year) so it doesn't really disrupt their education. If you were to do it after your second year, I agree it would be more disruptive (although there are some people who do it and have no issues with it).
I agree with you about doing research at Sinai but let me clarify. Your best chance at residency in any field, but especially a competitive field, is your home institution. The people at your home institution know you best and would be more willing to take you in spite of other flaws in your resume. It's just easier to match into your home institution and provides a great back-up if you need it. So if you don't do research at your home institution, you don't make the same connections and could be doing yourself a disservice. You'll have less of a chance matching into an outside institution, especially a top one, even if you do research at that institution. This is a moot point if you decide to do research at an outside institution only for your year off prior to med school, so if you plan on doing research at both places it certainly can help.
Just my opinion though, I don't think there's a right answer. I just wouldn't want you to waste a year if you don't need to. If you don't mind my asking, what field are you looking at? Feel free to PM me and we can discuss in more detail.
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I think very few schools allow for deferrals off the waitlist...but maybe I'm wrong? It is an individual basis and I suggest talking to the Deans at Sinai about this. They might let you know if it's possible and probably can give you advice (as academic physicians and doctors themselves who went to med school) what your best option might be.
Personally...I think it'd be better to do a year off during med school for research. You could start MS1 summer (or before then) in a lab, building a relationship through the next two years, getting a fellowship for a gap year (which you'll enjoy, research years are way less stressful than clerkship years). This seems like a way more likely way to publish (possibly, multiple publications) which makes you residency application much stronger.
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Oh, publications - the currency of the science world.
You can plan ahead as much as you like, but there's a lot of luck involved in whether you'll be put on publications. Here are a few things to consider:
1) The PI of the lab and/or lab hierarchy. Some PI's like to have tons of authors on papers, and even touching some glassware that was later used in an experiment will get you listed as an author. Others will feel that authorship needs to be earned, and may just list you as an acknowledgement (which nobody cares about). While there's nothing wrong with letting the PI know that you're interested in getting published (which they probably know anyway), it's a bit tactless to ask them how much work they consider to be authorship-worthy. If you can't find anyone who went through the lab to ask, look at some of their publications (generally, only those where they are listed as the last author are papers that came from their lab) and see if there's a fair bit of variability in the names, and if lots of names are listed. If so, you have a good chance of winding up on multiple papers from that lab, even if they don't pertain specifically to your project and/or your paper.
2) The type of lab (clinical vs. basic science) and the type of studies being performed. Clinical labs are considered to be easier and in my experience, seem to be looked down upon by basic science researchers. However, some clinical studies can last for years. Basic science studies involving long-term animal models can also last for quite a while. Unless you have prior research experience, there's also a good chance that you won't accomplish much within one year - you'll be leaving by the time you finally understand all of the techniques and details of the project.
3) Get a feel for how close a lab's projects are to "bearing fruit." If a project is just starting and/or the lab is doing a project that's new to them, the chances that it'll lead to a publication within a year or even two might be slim. Mature projects stand a better chance of quick publications, and perhaps multiple of them. But be careful - some PI's get a little overzealous (especially if they want you to join their lab) and may say that they'll be publishing a paper soon, when in reality the project has some major kinks to work out before it's near paper-worthy.
Given all of those factors involved in getting put on a paper, it's surprising to me that publications are regarded as highly as they are. I think that there was a time when a publication really deserved the respect associated with it, but not these days. That said, I dislike the advice I've given, but if you're going to put your time into research for publications and you're not in it for the long haul, then heed that advice to make sure that you're not wasting your time.
For what it's worth, I'm currently a graduate student. I don't claim to be all-knowing or have the absolute best advice in this area, but these are things I discovered as I went. Coming out of undergrad I'd thought it would be pretty different. I hope the advice is helpful.
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Fair enough. I guess my point being was that longer term experiences (over 4 or 5 years, rather than 1 year) would more likely to get students as deeply involved in their research as to be able to produce a quality first author paper. I guess the clinical research environment is different (I get the sense it's easier to churn out papers in a smaller amount of time?). I've worked in the basic sciences for 4-5 years across two labs. Took me about 1.5 years after finishing my first project to get it published (literally last week, my first author paper was accepted....I started the process of writing/editing/re-doing experiments after getting reviewer comments back..in September 2009 I think. Took me two submissions, but I did get it published once giving up the idea of a doing a super highly ranked journal when my project wasn't that ground breaking).
I'm the biggest science geek ever, so I'm all for the "love" of science and doing research because you enjoy it. No one can pry my pipet away for me. But to be honest, as a grad student who works in that environment, I'm sure you realize it's pretty clear theirs harsh reality that good publications = better opportunities when applying for jobs, looking to get tenure, etc. It's hard not to take into account a paper in Nature coming from one applicant vs. another that doesn't have any published work. I'm not saying that either student might be a better or worse scientist, but it's a way to differentiate people and assess the relatively quality of the work they put down on their resume. I definitely think publications help for competitive residencies. Especially if you're interested in academic medicine.
I did find the Sinai research environment to be pretty awesome. I just emailed a PI a day or two ago (top prof, department head, very distinguished) and she emailed back within 15 minutes offering me a spot in her lab. So, yeah, everyone seemed really receptive and it impressed me.
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It really depends on the project. You can be involved in research directly before medical school starts, during your summer breaks (and winter breaks too, if you find the lab to be a relaxing environment), and during a scholarly year off, but it's very, very unlikely that you'd be able to do any sort of research while you're actively taking classes or doing rotations.
Some PI's are more open to that. My own PI seems to feel that students can't really do much of anything within a 3-4 month period - they learn about the project, maybe pick up one technique or two, and then they're gone. By the time they come back in 5-6 months, the project has advanced and they'll just be playing catch-up for another few months. Granted, our own experiments can take the entire day - as such, the time require is huge and there's a steep learning curve associated with carrying out those procedures right.
It isn't like that for all projects, and some people can do it. I just wouldn't expect it.
I've never done clinical research. It seems like it's easier to get papers out of it - just do a study, find an insightful spin on it, and you're golden. Acquiring the necessary data is the hardest part, it seems. Whereas in basic science research you're planning experiments upon experiments to further the scope of your findings and further support them... I can understand the attitude among some basic science researchers that clinical research isn't "real" research. (It is, but it seems a lot less rigorous.)
Congratulations on your paper! And yes, I do realize that publications are highly valued. My point is that the value system is flawed. Suppose someone follows my advice and ends up with three or four papers in the span of a year, perhaps without doing too much aside from being friendly and helping lab-mates here and there. Contrast that with someone who works hard on their own project, but either gets only a single publication or perhaps even no publication out of it. The guy with more papers is going to receive more recognition, yet in terms of merit the fellow with fewer publications deserves more recognition.
This is not to say that papers absolutely can't represent merit in any way or form, but it increasingly seems like it's a political/business type of thing. Even in journal clubs, I can't tell you how many times we've wondered amongst each other how a paper like what we just read made it into Nature or some other high-tier journal, because the experimental data isn't very convincing. The conclusion is often that the paper was accepted because the lab that it came from is a very well-known lab. That's politics, not science or merit.
I'm just complaining about it because, again, I don't think this is what the field should be about. I recognize that it is, though, and it's likely only going to get worse.
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Does anyone know who I should contact about financial aid? I kind of want a break-down of the 2010-2011 budget for making a school comparison. The award letter just had the final amount (not what made it up).
Dale Fuller ([email protected]) for financial aid or better yet try Phillip Parke ([email protected]). He's the guy who sends out the tuition invoices
I e-mailed Lillian Negron asking for the same thing and she sent me the break-down within a day or so (she was the person who sent me my award letter so i just replied to that e-mail).
And congrats on Stanford, btw! Good luck with the decision
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Just got in off the wait list...I'm in absolute shock and SO happy! Definitely matriculating and can't wait to meet you all Fellow waitlisters, there is clearly movement so don't lose hope!
Fellow waitlisters, there is clearly movement so don't lose hope!Just got in off the wait list...I'm in absolute shock and SO happy! Definitely matriculating and can't wait to meet you all
Congrats!
Just got in off the wait list...I'm in absolute shock and SO happy! Definitely matriculating and can't wait to meet you all
Congratulations!
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Do you guys think this means they had a second round of waitlist movement? or was this an isolated case (doubt it)? I want sinai so so so so bad. Did the people who got in the first round have to decide by now?
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I think waitlist movement went through mid-June last year. There definitely are people getting in off waitlists and deciding on other places so there's the natural "shuffle" that occurs during this point of the year. I'm in a that situation (enrolled at Sinai, accepted elsewhere off the waitlist)... although, leaning towards staying at Sinai at this point. But, we'll see if that changes in the next week.
Good luck! Where are you headed if not Sinai?
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ill tell you privately on pm (must keep my identity secret)
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It's hard to tell if it happens in "rounds" so much as "staggered". For example, if someone takes two weeks to decide that they don't want the waitlist spot vs. someone who takes 3 days to decide that they don't want it, then the lag between the subsequent offers of waitlist acceptances would reflect that. I'm not sure if they do it case by case or if they wait every two weeks, assess the number of waitlist acceptances that were turned down, and then dole out a new batch of acceptances accordingly. But regardless, the fact that there's movement in late-May signifies good things in my opinion! Just keep at it - I had a ton of letters sent in from a variety of sources to demonstrate my interest, and it definitely made all the difference. PM me if anyone would like more details about my strategy and whatnot. Good luck everyone!
Sorry to hear about that. Best of luck to you at Downstate.
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I live right next to sinai and no rejection letter for me yet. I dont think this means they are full and done accepting this year....its prob a bit to early for that. I want sinai so bad! Im sorry to hear you had sad news. In last years thread no one posted of a rejection letter from the wait list....this is quite curious.....anyone know how many people have gotten in off the wait list this year so far?
I'm sure they are not done yet and there will still be more of a shuffle through June/July, although I'm not sure how many people have been taken off so far.
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Sorry about that. This process is all sort of whacky, so don't take it personally. Where are you ending up otherwise?- Joined
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sorry to hear that, wow I did not know there is rejection for waitlisted people
I had decided on Downstate a while ago, but Mount Sinai was the one school that had waitlisted me that I would have considered withdrawing from Downstate for. Now I am 100% sure I will go to Downstate.
Also, I wonder if other people received the rejection letter from the waitlist but just didn't post it. This probably means I was toward the bottom of the list based on whatever ranking system they use (and I don't believe that unraked wait lists are truly unranked.)
So, I'm finally getting around to doing the things for Sinai matriculation. Got a couple of questions:
1) transcripts - who do we send it to? Admissions Office?
2) urine/drug test - first labcorp's site to find collection locations seems jittery and keeps not working randomly for me. secondly, do we make an appointment, or just show up with those carbon-copy sheets we got in the mail?
3) will we get more info about orientation or something during the summer? Or do we just kinda show up on Aug 14 to move-in and hope there's more info there.
4) I have a dying desktop I used in college (I like the reliability of desktops versus my family's history of broken laptops and am slightly a computer freak). Do current students think I could survive with a netbook for most school/not in room use? then supplement it with a desktop (and giant monitor) when in my room. Or should I just get an expensive stronger laptop?
any help would be great! thanks!
1) transcripts - who do we send it to? Admissions Office?
2) urine/drug test - first labcorp's site to find collection locations seems jittery and keeps not working randomly for me. secondly, do we make an appointment, or just show up with those carbon-copy sheets we got in the mail?
3) will we get more info about orientation or something during the summer? Or do we just kinda show up on Aug 14 to move-in and hope there's more info there.
4) I have a dying desktop I used in college (I like the reliability of desktops versus my family's history of broken laptops and am slightly a computer freak). Do current students think I could survive with a netbook for most school/not in room use? then supplement it with a desktop (and giant monitor) when in my room. Or should I just get an expensive stronger laptop?
any help would be great! thanks!
Hi there, kidproquo. I can answer one of your questions: you do send the transcripts to the admissions office. After a couple of days, I would call them to confirm that they received it.
To others who plan on matriculating at Sinai, I look forward to meeting you. Take care!
I definitely think you can use a netbook in place of a laptop. All you really need is a browser that supports java, maybe a pdf reader, and powerpoint/word.
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hi folks,
could someone give me a break-down of the costs for Mt Sinai? I am arranging a possible outside scholarship, and they are asking for a full break-down of the costs. From the website, I am getting $53,755 (for the 08-09 school year), but have read higher figures earlier in this thread.
PS: got in from the waitlist so no financial papers sent to me yet to answer this question...
could someone give me a break-down of the costs for Mt Sinai? I am arranging a possible outside scholarship, and they are asking for a full break-down of the costs. From the website, I am getting $53,755 (for the 08-09 school year), but have read higher figures earlier in this thread.
PS: got in from the waitlist so no financial papers sent to me yet to answer this question...
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Withdrew today. Toughest decision ever, I think a little part of me will always belong to Sinai. Hope it goes to one of you guys.
yannipapa- Sinai gave me something like 61,000 as a rough figure (I think it may have slightly overestimated things, and depends on whether or not you need health insurance, etc.). If you PM me your email, I can send it along to you.
yannipapa- Sinai gave me something like 61,000 as a rough figure (I think it may have slightly overestimated things, and depends on whether or not you need health insurance, etc.). If you PM me your email, I can send it along to you.
you will be missed, mdeast! thanks for answering so many questions on this thread -- it def. helped me (and countless others who lurk in the shadows, i'm sure). I still wonder sometimes if i ran into you at second look!
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Awww thanks. I'll miss Sinai too
I think my MDApps is probably enough to figure me out. I was the short white guy probably with my black Manhattan portage messenger bag that I don't leave home without.
Hmmm...I wonder if I ran into jbz at revisit. I know I definitely met some 4th years.
Awww thanks. I'll miss Sinai too
I think my MDApps is probably enough to figure me out. I was the short white guy probably with my black Manhattan portage messenger bag that I don't leave home without.
Hmmm...I wonder if I ran into jbz at revisit. I know I definitely met some 4th years.
You didn't, I wasn't able to make it this year
But I know some of the people who you did run into as you described them earlier in this thread.
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does anyone know of any one who withdrew or got accepted lately? girl/ boy/white/ minority?
bluedevil please do pm me id like to chat about being a waitlistee....
bluedevil please do pm me id like to chat about being a waitlistee....
Just had this e-mailed to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYrnerAZcgQ
I will say that TBabs has an uncanny resemblance to Dr. Babyatsky, the internal medicine residency director...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYrnerAZcgQ
I will say that TBabs has an uncanny resemblance to Dr. Babyatsky, the internal medicine residency director...
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So I just found these boards this weekend and I'm excited to get some advice!!! Got in off the waitlist at Sinai recently, still deciding. I'm from CT, went to school in Boston, have always wanted to live in New York City. Do not know too many people there. I'm already set to attend what many will call a more "prestigious" school on the West Coast, a suburban gem referred to as the "Ivy" of the West if that gives it away. Sort of far from home, but I loved it there.
Everyone say's I'm silly for considering Sinai, but I can't get out of my head how cool New York would be (I've been heading there since I was a kid, and always wanted to live there). I obviously didn't attend revisit weekend at Sinai, and to be honest, hadn't really considered it too much until now. It sort of slipped my mind that I hadn't withdrawn. I do remember really liking my interview day, and I really liked the Dean who spoke in the morning (there were students wearing t-shirts with his face on them? gave me a chuckle). I think it ends up slightly cheaper in the end, but not enough to make a difference. Worried that my match might be harder giving up the big name school. Any advice? My parents can't comprehend why I'd even be considering this so late in the game...but NYC seems so hard to give up even though it may not be the most highly ranked school I was accepted at.
I got into NYU and Einstein as well, but didn't like either their lack of an "academic" environment or their location (Bronx, ick). Rejected post-interview at Columbia and Cornell. This is sort of my last shot.
Everyone say's I'm silly for considering Sinai, but I can't get out of my head how cool New York would be (I've been heading there since I was a kid, and always wanted to live there). I obviously didn't attend revisit weekend at Sinai, and to be honest, hadn't really considered it too much until now. It sort of slipped my mind that I hadn't withdrawn. I do remember really liking my interview day, and I really liked the Dean who spoke in the morning (there were students wearing t-shirts with his face on them? gave me a chuckle). I think it ends up slightly cheaper in the end, but not enough to make a difference. Worried that my match might be harder giving up the big name school. Any advice? My parents can't comprehend why I'd even be considering this so late in the game...but NYC seems so hard to give up even though it may not be the most highly ranked school I was accepted at.
I got into NYU and Einstein as well, but didn't like either their lack of an "academic" environment or their location (Bronx, ick). Rejected post-interview at Columbia and Cornell. This is sort of my last shot.
It seems like there were actually a bunch of people who were choosing between Sinai and Stanford - maybe you can PM them and compare notes (mdeast, Question123, NormaMD).
There's nothing wrong with choosing a less prestigious school over a more prestigious one if it fits your priorities better; just understand there are pros and cons to each school.
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damn.....!!! have you come to a decision? totally crazy you forgot!
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Withdrew this morning. Waitlist should be moving.
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You think soon? I called last week and wast old that the next meeting was the 29th and we shouldn't expect anything until then.
I'd be surprised if the next movement is after the 29th considering it looks like they've given acceptances every week since the 3rd week of May. I'd guess that some more people will hear this week, maybe tomorrow. Someone should give them another call
When I called last week the admissions woman told me that there hadn't been any movement that week, but that they were told there would be some movement soon. However, when I called today a different woman basically told me that the class was full and that waitlist movement would only occur as specific individuals withdraw.
Can someone tell me where they received the June 29th information? And also what the admissions office specifically told you?
Can someone tell me where they received the June 29th information? And also what the admissions office specifically told you?
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