Why you should not attend a DO school

[UWM01]

ok, i give them credit for making money like a champ. DO's aren't that stupid i guess! i love my med school, don't get me wrong, i just think that we are going to be diluting the quality of students by opening up all these new DO schools because of profits. if the quality of DO's decreases then it will be even harder to maintain respect thru-out the medical profession. you go out to large MD instituitions as a DO and you already feel you gotta prove yourself once you let everyone know where you went to med school. even though you know you smoked the usmle and can hang with any MD student, you always feel that you need to prove something because most MDs think a DO is a guy who couldn't get into an MD school (although better than going to a foreign school). that plain out blows, but that's the reality. now, if we have all these new schools coming out of the woodwork and taking in students with sub-par gpa's and sh-it-y mcat scores, what does that mean for the profession?

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[fuegorama]

if we have all these new schools coming out of the woodwork and taking in students with sub-par gpa's and sh-it-y mcat scores, what does that mean for the profession?

Ding!
If you can have someone w/ a voice in the AOA answer that question, there is a very special prize waiting for you.



The real answer is that there will be a series of numbskulls graduated w/ DO behind their name. Because of their poor academic ability, and the near abscence of any real clinical training there will be a cascade of malpractice/negligence cases. The rest of us will be lumped w/them on a series of exposes on Fox and Weekend Edition. A modern-day Flexner report will come out. Everybody w/ a voice will then admit that $5 million is a ridiculously low financial foundation for new schools (vs. the 50-150 million for LCME programs) Thousands of us will pay the price professionally.

Then Osteopathy will reinvent itself again .

 

[It'sElectric]

I almost regret actually replying to this thread and consequently keeping it alive (since it's nearly 2 years old!!), but I feel it's important that I respond to the OP. Someone provided the following link earlier in the thread (page 5 or so): http://www.amsa.org/meded/tuition_FAQ.cfm

Within this link, they basically provide the answer to why tuition costs what it costs and why you and I pay what we pay all 4 years.

"How much of my tuition money actually goes towards funding my medical education?

There have been several studies conducted over the last 3 decades investigating the annual costs of educating a medical student, both in terms of instructional costs and educational resources costs. These studies have found that instructional costs range anywhere from about $48,000 to $51,000 per student per year, and educational resources costs from about $80,000 to $105,000 per student per year (adjusted for 2002 constant dollars).(4) Instructional costs are primarily comprised of professor salaries and costs that relate directly to the teaching program, while total educational resources include all activities of teaching, research, scholarship, patient care, and maintenance of facilities.(5) Therefore, tuition does NOT cover all costs to fund your medical education. This inherently means that medical schools must derive funds from other sources.

The key part is what I've bolded. Since we all know that osteopathic institutions are unable to produce the kind of grant/research money that allopathic schools are able to, I'm actually impressed that they're able to finance students' educations. I just hope that people really look at all of the facts before they so easily fall into the trap of he said/she said bullsh1t. Yes, medical schools are a business and yes they are making money off of us, but they're not literally robbing us and solely concerned with making millions for themselves. I would think that it would only take a brief conversation with a variety of professors and administrators to see that the majority truly care about the future of medicine, as well as each individual students' future. Any institution that doesn't give 2 sh1ts about the success of its students is flat out foolish. Successful students directly reflect on their schools (whether it's deserved or not).

 

[Old_Mil]

Ding!
If you can have someone w/ a voice in the AOA answer that question, there is a very special prize waiting for you.

Don't hold your breath. I'm not entirely sure what the AOA's long term strategy is: fill the coffers by printing DO degrees like a diploma mill, turn us all into 'scrip writing chiropractors, or something else entirely. Whatever it is, it certainly sounds like the wrong one.

Maybe those folks in California were right with that whole "merger" idea after all.

 

[Tallulah]

I cannot speak for all the new DO schools, but I know that in Georgia, the new DO school is badly needed. Atlanta and other parts of GA have a HUGE shortage of physicians (parts of atlanta are considered underserved) and there are not enough medical schools in GA right now to provide the number of future physicians needed to fill in the gaps...
I am so grateful to have a medical school that is only 2 miles from my house...There are only 4 other schools in GA; Emory, Morehouse, MCG, and mercer...Mercer is known for mainly wanting to train Primary care physicians and Emory is impossible to get into...that leaves only MCG and morehouse as plausible schools to apply to if you want to stay in GA (at least for me)...so I think that the assumption that these new schools are unnecessary and that they are going to be accepting just sub-par students is really really really unfounded. Especially since I will be going to one of these new schools...i have friends who will be joining me there...we all went to Emory for undergrad (for those not familiar w/GA emory is a very hard, very good undergrad school), most of us have master's degrees in addition to our bachelors, and most of our MCAT scores are WAY above the average for DO schools and definitely within the average for MD schools...So i doubt that the graduates of at least GA-PCOM will be brining down the name of the Osteopathic profession...in fact, we are hoping to bring more awareness of the DO profession in the south and to really contribute to the medical community in GA...In addition, many MD schools are increasing their class sizes b/c of the projected shortage of physcians...There are only about 20 DO schools versus 100+ MD schools...i don't think that opening more DO schools is diluting the intelligence and capabilities of future physicians.
sorry...just had to vent b/c it is very frustrating to read about how all these new DO schools mean that only stupid, undeserving people will be getting into these schools and bringing down the DO name...it's just not really true.

Ding!
If you can have someone w/ a voice in the AOA answer that question, there is a very special prize waiting for you.



The real answer is that there will be a series of numbskulls graduated w/ DO behind their name. Because of their poor academic ability, and the near abscence of any real clinical training there will be a cascade of malpractice/negligence cases. The rest of us will be lumped w/them on a series of exposes on Fox and Weekend Edition. A modern-day Flexner report will come out. Everybody w/ a voice will then admit that $5 million is a ridiculously low financial foundation for new schools (vs. the 50-150 million for LCME programs) Thousands of us will pay the price professionally.

Then Osteopathy will reinvent itself again .

 

[MacGyver]

Every business is about maximizing profits. If what you say is true, DO schools have found a niche in the medical education marketplace and are filling it successfully - more power to 'em.

Sadly, most DO schools feel EXACTLY this way; that its a business and nothign more.

Thats why doctors will have the same status as lawyers in 20 years. Lawyers are a dime a dozen, and doctors will be as well once PCOM, LECOM, and Touro open 50 new medical schools in every state

Most private MD schools are nonprofits and they ahve transparent accounting practices. They still charge a lot of tuition, but unlike DO schools they guarantee clinical rotations and have established, formal relationships/contracts with hospitals. DO schools leave you to fend for yourself for clinicals

 

[fuegorama]

I cannot speak for all the new DO schools, but I know that in Georgia, the new DO school is badly needed. Atlanta and other parts of GA have a HUGE shortage of physicians (parts of atlanta are considered underserved) and there are not enough medical schools in GA right now to provide the number of future physicians needed to fill in the gaps...
I am so grateful to have a medical school that is only 2 miles from my house...There are only 4 other schools in GA; Emory, Morehouse, MCG, and mercer...Mercer is known for mainly wanting to train Primary care physicians and Emory is impossible to get into...that leaves only MCG and morehouse as plausible schools to apply to if you want to stay in GA (at least for me)...so I think that the assumption that these new schools are unnecessary and that they are going to be accepting just sub-par students is really really really unfounded. Especially since I will be going to one of these new schools...i have friends who will be joining me there...we all went to Emory for undergrad (for those not familiar w/GA emory is a very hard, very good undergrad school), most of us have master's degrees in addition to our bachelors, and most of our MCAT scores are WAY above the average for DO schools and definitely within the average for MD schools...So i doubt that the graduates of at least GA-PCOM will be brining down the name of the Osteopathic profession...in fact, we are hoping to bring more awareness of the DO profession in the south and to really contribute to the medical community in GA...In addition, many MD schools are increasing their class sizes b/c of the projected shortage of physcians...There are only about 20 DO schools versus 100+ MD schools...i don't think that opening more DO schools is diluting the intelligence and capabilities of future physicians.
sorry...just had to vent b/c it is very frustrating to read about how all these new DO schools mean that only stupid, undeserving people will be getting into these schools and bringing down the DO name...it's just not really true.

Here is a cut and paste of something I wrote 16 months ago. It was an answer to the same points and I think it still holds.

I apologize for insulting you or your school in my earlier post. You should be proud of your acceptance and I sincerely hope you get the education you are paying for. My feelings stem from observations of my own program and the osteo. crowd in general.

I feel that I am at one of the better medical schools in the country. I didn't say DO school. I said medical school. I have had one great lecture after another. We have an anatomy program that is second only to Columbia in number of scheduled hours and faculty time. Our OMM department is headed by a leader in the field and author of the most quoted article in this forum. (the use of OMM for AOM) We have research initiatives that involve every department hosted by the program. There is a biomedical research center slated for construction in the near future. My education is expensive, but I feel that I am getting the foundation I will need to progress through residency into a competent physician.

With that said, as I start my board prep. I realize there are ragged, gaping holes in my understanding of some fundamentals. I have not been prepared for some of what will be required for the USMLE (another topic altogether).

My school has a three decade history. We have good relationships with surrounding hospitals and clinics. We have faculty that are dedicated to the school and its location. Occasionally, things still do not flow smoothly.

How can a new school, without this history put it together?
Is there a need for more DOS at this time?
If a body of inspectors, a la Flexner, examined every DO school tomorrow, would they be allowed to continue functioning?
The applicant pool has been shrinking for the past three years. There has been a huge drop in applicants since 1995. Reported acceptance stats have declined. Last year saw one of the lowest national COMLEX I scores on record. Is this due to the difficulty of the test, or is it a weakness in the pool?
I have classmates and colleagues at other programs who were accepted with poor stats, but the "right attitude" who now profess that they were not prepared for the rigors of medical education. They are now stuck with debt, struggling to keep their heads out of the water, and caught in the "I hate what I'll be doing-but this is my career world". The MCAT and GPA requirements are there for a reason.
I hope you are correct about the stats at your school. I KNOW from my own interview experiences the desperation for apps at some schools. (E.G. being offered a slot while in the interview ) Hopefully your program has a more thorough decision process.
If these new schools do not, we will be seeing a crop of DOs unable to meet the demands of medicine. As a minority, we are dependent on the accumen and skill of our fellow DOs. The opinion of the public is made one interaction at a time.
Recall the jab-"An MD makes a mistake...he's human. A DO makes a mistake...he's a DO".

My .02.

Now one year later and nearing the end of my clinical cores I can give further testament that even w/3 decades of great inter-facility relationships in a state where we are the only medical school, we still get the leftovers from the admittedly large name programs in the states nearby. Because of the groundwork my program has laid over the past twenty years I have had fantastic surgery, OB, IM and elective opportunities. However, even w/that foundation I have been left begging as the allo. kidz get first dibs on Peds anywhere locally. I will have to schlep myself 3 states away to complete that clerkship. As someone who literally crossed a country to attend this program it is not a big deal, but I am fairly impressed at how scarce good clinical rotations can be.

So why is my stellar school suckin' 7th nipple? Because even w/ a great endowment, even w/dedicated homegrown faculty, even w/facilities begging for our grads we don't have the history and more importantly the funds to buy better than adequate clinical education.

You say 4 existing schools is underserved?!!!!! Are you kidding? Have you ever crossed the big river in the middle of the country? I can name 4 states that have NO medical schools and 5 that have only one. You, my friend, are matriculating into a school w/no adjacent facility, in a state that is glutted w/medical students. Please keep this series of posts somewhere near and dear and please pull them out third year. As you clutch your "clinical" schedule of offfice visits and outpatient surgery centers, go find one of the hundreds of MD kids and ask them where they are rotating. I anticipate teeth gnashing and maybe a rending of clothes.

 

[MacGyver]

let me pose this to you all. consider, many MD staff/profs earn >> than 500k a year...:

Dude thats flat out lie. Academic medicine in the MD world doesnt pay ANYWHERE CLOSE TO THAT NUMBER. Try more like 115k or so on average

 

[fuegorama]

DO schools leave you to fend for yourself for clinicals

If you read my post above you will find that I agree w/you in part. I will repeat though, that my program has worked hard at getting its students rotations that blow away many MD opportunities. I have discussed this at obnoxious length w/some of the blessed allo kidlings doing rotations in frijoleville to our South. They may actually attend God's school of medicine, but I would not hesitate to compare our clinical experiences. For that one rotation my clerkship will be much less convenient.

The metastasis of new schools however, will have students and eventually PDs waking up to the fact that without history and groundwork, the low-overhead med school startup is a loser for medicine, students, osteopathy and most unfortunately patients.

 

[MacGyver]

I cannot speak for all the new DO schools, but I know that in Georgia, the new DO school is badly needed. Atlanta and other parts of GA have a HUGE shortage of physicians (parts of atlanta are considered underserved) and there are not enough medical schools in GA right now to provide the number of future physicians needed to fill in the gaps...
I am so grateful to have a medical school that is only 2 miles from my house...There are only 4 other schools in GA; Emory, Morehouse, MCG, and mercer...Mercer is known for mainly wanting to train Primary care physicians and Emory is impossible to get into...that leaves only MCG and morehouse as plausible schools to apply to if you want to stay in GA.

Please tell me this is a joke. For a state the size of Georgia, 4 med schools is MORE THAN ENOUGH.

Now of course PCOM-Atlanta is running so make that 5 schools.

Absolutely ridiculous for a state that size. Each one of those schools puts out 150-250 doctors per year, so that makes about 1000 new doctors per year potential in Georgia. Of course, not all the grads stay in Georgia but the bottom line is thats plenty for state with only 8 million people

5 med schools for 8 million people is overkill

 

[MacGyver]

Somebody else posted it earler, but I'm going to steal his thunder anyways because this is whats going to happen with all these new schools opening

Med schools will become exactly like law schools. Virtually guaranteed acceptance for anybody who wants to come in. When that happens, med schools hierarchy will emerge, and trust me, the DO schools are NOT going to like that outcome.

Right now, it doesnt matter whether you go to Harvard or StateU med, you can still get a good residency. With overcrowding of med schools, what will happen is that eventually only the med students from top tier med schools will be competitive for the lucrative specialties such as derm, rads, gas, surgery, etc and the other grads will have to settle for family practice.

A few programs like Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford will stay famous, and the rest of the med schools will fall into mediocrity.

When that happens (and it WILL happen if these med schools keep expanding) then DO programs are going to be at the bottom of the barrell. Right now DO grads can go into any specialty they want. That will change once the "med school hierarchy" paradigm emerges.

Dont believe me? Look at law schools.

Harvard Law grads get their pick of whatever job they want. A handful of other top tier law school grads have the same luxury. However, the rest of the third tier law school grads have SEVERELY LIMITED OPTIONS in terms of job outloook. They have to settle for small, low paying firms, or end up becoming ambulance chasers.

Thats EXACTLY what will happen to med schools if we allow Touro to open a new med school in every state like it wants

 

[Dr Alo]

Uhmmm...... It's called America!!

Welcome to the free market economy. People say the same things about Microsoft, GE, Disney, the government.....

It's their money, let them do as they want! If you don't like it, speak up, make a website, join a group, start a protest!

Couldn't have set it better.... and I have an Economics degree!!!

 

[Smackey]

For all you "Dooms Day predictors" From USA Today(and many many other sources). Maybe do some research before Prophesizing about how we will be like ambulance chasers.

"The country needs to train 3,000 to 10,000 more physicians a year — up from the current 25,000 — to meet the growing medical needs of an aging, wealthy nation, the studies say. Because it takes 10 years to train a doctor, the nation will have a shortage of 85,000 to 200,000 doctors in 2020 unless action is taken soon.

The predictions of a doctor shortage represent an abrupt about-face for the medical profession. For the past quarter-century, the American Medical Association and other industry groups have predicted a glut of doctors and worked to limit the number of new physicians. In 1994, the Journal of the American Medical Association predicted a surplus of 165,000 doctors by 2000.

"It didn't happen," says Harvard University medical professor David Blumenthal, author of a New England Journal of Medicinearticle on the doctor supply. "Physicians aren't driving taxis. In fact, we're all gainfully employed, earning good incomes, and new physicians are getting two, three or four job offers."

The nation now has about 800,000 active physicians, up from 500,000 20 years ago. They've been kept busy by a growing population and new procedures ranging from heart stents to liposuction.

But unless more medical students begin training soon, the supply of physicians will begin to shrink in about 10 years when doctors from the baby boom generation retire in large numbers.

"Almost everyone agrees we need more physicians," says Carl Getto, chairman of the Council on Graduate Medical Education, a panel Congress created to recommend how many doctors the nation needs. "The debate is over how many."

Getto's advocacy of more doctors is remarkable because his advisory committee and its predecessor have been instrumental since the 1980s in efforts to restrict the supply of new physicians. In a new study sent to Congress, the council reverses that policy and recommends training 3,000 more doctors a year in U.S. medical schools.

Even the American Medical Association (AMA), the influential lobbying group for physicians, has abandoned its long-standing position that an "oversupply exists or is immediately expected."

*Edit- sorry for continuing on a 2 year old thread... Any chance for a lock?

 

[deezballas]

Somebody else posted it earler, but I'm going to steal his thunder anyways because this is whats going to happen with all these new schools opening

Med schools will become exactly like law schools. Virtually guaranteed acceptance for anybody who wants to come in. When that happens, med schools hierarchy will emerge, and trust me, the DO schools are NOT going to like that outcome.

Right now, it doesnt matter whether you go to Harvard or StateU med, you can still get a good residency. With overcrowding of med schools, what will happen is that eventually only the med students from top tier med schools will be competitive for the lucrative specialties such as derm, rads, gas, surgery, etc and the other grads will have to settle for family practice.

A few programs like Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford will stay famous, and the rest of the med schools will fall into mediocrity.

When that happens (and it WILL happen if these med schools keep expanding) then DO programs are going to be at the bottom of the barrell. Right now DO grads can go into any specialty they want. That will change once the "med school hierarchy" paradigm emerges.

Dont believe me? Look at law schools.

Harvard Law grads get their pick of whatever job they want. A handful of other top tier law school grads have the same luxury. However, the rest of the third tier law school grads have SEVERELY LIMITED OPTIONS in terms of job outloook. They have to settle for small, low paying firms, or end up becoming ambulance chasers.

Thats EXACTLY what will happen to med schools if we allow Touro to open a new med school in every state like it wants

I disagree with you, but not entirely. Medical school will never be like law school. I agree that anyone and their dog can get a law degree but not anyone and their dog can graduate medical school. Even if more medical schools open up which subsequently allows students with lower numbers to get admitted, they still have to pass the national exams to get licensed. AND.... Even if dumb students get into DO school(which you are worried about), barely squeek by and actually DO get licensed, they still have to practice competent medicine. If they don't they will be run out of town, and in the end lose their license to practice.

Macgyver (BTW, I loved your tv show), are you sure you are not just feeling threatened by the possibility of more physicians being trained, thus lowering the need for doctors, and therefore possibly reducing your salary? I hope money isn't your main reason for pursuing medicine. There are many other ways in this country to earn enough money to drive around in a beamer. If you are confident in your ability to practice medicine, you shouldn't be threatened by other doctors, whether they are harvard grads or just sub par DOs.

To tell you my brief story.... I never knew about osteopathy until my last year in undergrad. And when I did initially learn about osteopathic doctors I was told they are weirdo, alternative medicine, natural healers that can also prescribe medicine like real doctors. I didn't apply to DO schools my first year. Well, after applying to multiple schools and interviewing at a few I soon found out how much luck and bull shiznit was needed to get accepted to MD schools. The hoops some schools want you to jump through are ridiculous. I didn't give a rat's asprin about research. In school, after dominating a physics test I went out and played ball instead of messing with tests tubes in a lab somewhere. When I did my homework on DO schools I was extremely excited. I just want to be a physician and that's what my DO school will help train me to become.

If people like you knew before attending a specific "bottom of the barrel" medical school that you would be forced into family practice you would either not bother applying, or double your effort to stand out better and get accepted to a medical school that would provide you with more "lucrative" residency options.

Long live the king!

 

[raptor5]

Somebody else posted it earler, but I'm going to steal his thunder anyways because this is whats going to happen with all these new schools opening

Med schools will become exactly like law schools. Virtually guaranteed acceptance for anybody who wants to come in. When that happens, med schools hierarchy will emerge, and trust me, the DO schools are NOT going to like that outcome.

Right now, it doesnt matter whether you go to Harvard or StateU med, you can still get a good residency. With overcrowding of med schools, what will happen is that eventually only the med students from top tier med schools will be competitive for the lucrative specialties such as derm, rads, gas, surgery, etc and the other grads will have to settle for family practice.

A few programs like Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford will stay famous, and the rest of the med schools will fall into mediocrity.

When that happens (and it WILL happen if these med schools keep expanding) then DO programs are going to be at the bottom of the barrell. Right now DO grads can go into any specialty they want. That will change once the "med school hierarchy" paradigm emerges.

Dont believe me? Look at law schools.

Harvard Law grads get their pick of whatever job they want. A handful of other top tier law school grads have the same luxury. However, the rest of the third tier law school grads have SEVERELY LIMITED OPTIONS in terms of job outloook. They have to settle for small, low paying firms, or end up becoming ambulance chasers.

Thats EXACTLY what will happen to med schools if we allow Touro to open a new med school in every state like it wants

I say fine dilute the market with docs. Just keep the amount of residency spots constant. Med school will become more competitive and will then be a gamble. If you are not competitive enough to get a residency you teach undergrad A&P, work in pharm, sell crack. Worst case scenario now is you scramble to a university FM program and still make a decent chunk of change but end up not being worth crap to anyone but big pharma b/c all you know how to do is prescribe and refer.

 

[MacGyver]

For all you "Dooms Day predictors" From USA Today(and many many other sources). Maybe do some research before Prophesizing about how we will be like ambulance chasers.

"The country needs to train 3,000 to 10,000 more physicians a year — up from the current 25,000 — to meet the growing medical needs of an aging, wealthy nation, the studies say. Because it takes 10 years to train a doctor, the nation will have a shortage of 85,000 to 200,000 doctors in 2020 unless action is taken soon.

The predictions of a doctor shortage represent an abrupt about-face for the medical profession. For the past quarter-century, the American Medical Association and other industry groups have predicted a glut of doctors and worked to limit the number of new physicians. In 1994, the Journal of the American Medical Association predicted a surplus of 165,000 doctors by 2000.

"It didn't happen," says Harvard University medical professor David Blumenthal, author of a New England Journal of Medicinearticle on the doctor supply. "Physicians aren't driving taxis. In fact, we're all gainfully employed, earning good incomes, and new physicians are getting two, three or four job offers."

The nation now has about 800,000 active physicians, up from 500,000 20 years ago. They've been kept busy by a growing population and new procedures ranging from heart stents to liposuction.

But unless more medical students begin training soon, the supply of physicians will begin to shrink in about 10 years when doctors from the baby boom generation retire in large numbers.

"Almost everyone agrees we need more physicians," says Carl Getto, chairman of the Council on Graduate Medical Education, a panel Congress created to recommend how many doctors the nation needs. "The debate is over how many."

Getto's advocacy of more doctors is remarkable because his advisory committee and its predecessor have been instrumental since the 1980s in efforts to restrict the supply of new physicians. In a new study sent to Congress, the council reverses that policy and recommends training 3,000 more doctors a year in U.S. medical schools.

Even the American Medical Association (AMA), the influential lobbying group for physicians, has abandoned its long-standing position that an "oversupply exists or is immediately expected."

*Edit- sorry for continuing on a 2 year old thread... Any chance for a lock?

1) I want a link to back up your post

2) All those studies showing doctor shortage are fatally flawed because of several reasons:

*They pretend that DO schools dont exist. Read those reports. They reference 125 medical schools but make no mention of DO programs. There are currently 20 something DO schools with plans to expand up to 40 in the near future. Each of those schools puts out about 150 doctors per year, so right off the top thats 3000-4000 new doctors PER YEAR that the studies totally ignore.

*They pretend that PAs and NPs dont exist. These studies assume that the only people scripting meds in the entire country are MDs. They ignore the fact that NPs and PAs have replaced MDs in many areas.

*Those reports IGNORE the comparison of the US doctor/patient ratio to other countries. Currently, the US is one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. If anything, the US has too many doctors, not too few.

*Those reports IGNORE foreign medical graduates which make up about 30% of all residents in training.


3) I have a current thread ongoing in the allopathic forum about a current list of new built and planned med schools, both DO and MD. Go check out that list. Over 20 new programs have either been built since 2002 or planning to be built in the next few years. That comes out to an extra 2500 doctors per year, minimum.

 

[raptor5]

I never understood who defined the parameters for the supposed physician shortage. If I can make a Derm appt. same day does that mean there is no shortage? So until then there is a shortage. That is crap.
Third Party Payers will agree with the shortage in an effort dilute the market thus decreasing reimbursement even further. I agree there is a shortage but it is mostly geographic.
Some people won't be happy until there is a pediatric nephrologist specializing in MPGN in every city in the country.

 

[Tallulah]

here is a link for all of you who just can't believe there is a physician shortage in GA and that we have underserved areas

http://gbpw.georgia.gov/vgn/images/...0015Fact Sheet - GAs Medical Schools 2006.pdf

 

[UWM01]

Ya know the only person to blame in this situation is AT Still! God rest his soul! KCOM RULES!!!

 

[Smackey]

Try this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=shortage+of+doctors&btnG=Google+Search

Click on any of the 500 articles.

 

[raptor5]

Try this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=shortage+of+doctors&btnG=Google+Search

Click on any of the 500 articles.

First article to come up was about Taylor county Florida population 19,200. Only 1 urologist and he visits one day per month. A geographical shortage of specialists. The county cannot support a fulltime urologist based on population or number of cases.

Again what defines a shortage? Do we want the urologist 1 mile away? Do we want to only drive 5 miles instead of 10 to the nearest specialist? How many specialists do we need per population? How many do we want?

We need to ask the questions to define the goals. IMO the goals should be to increase GME in the needed areas, increases recruiting and incentives in needed areas, and work with local agencies to define and identify need while working with them to resolve the issue. Opening up medical schools and increasing the physician population is not the smart solution.

 

[Old_Mil]

Are you sure you are not just feeling threatened by the possibility of more physicians being trained, thus lowering the need for doctors, and therefore possibly reducing your salary? I hope money isn't your main reason for pursuing medicine. There are many other ways in this country to earn enough money to drive around in a beamer. If you are confident in your ability to practice medicine, you shouldn't be threatened by other doctors, whether they are harvard grads or just sub par DOs.

Let's be honest about this - while money isn't the only reason that we are getting into medicine, career decisions are not made in a vacuum where money isn't a consideration. Furthermore there's nothing wrong with it being a consideration.

Only someone who failed math class would go to school till they are 26 and run up $300,000 in student loans to get out and make $30k a year.

Just being real.

 

[dnw826]

Ding!
If you can have someone w/ a voice in the AOA answer that question, there is a very special prize waiting for you.



The real answer is that there will be a series of numbskulls graduated w/ DO behind their name. Because of their poor academic ability, and the near abscence of any real clinical training there will be a cascade of malpractice/negligence cases. The rest of us will be lumped w/them on a series of exposes on Fox and Weekend Edition. A modern-day Flexner report will come out. Everybody w/ a voice will then admit that $5 million is a ridiculously low financial foundation for new schools (vs. the 50-150 million for LCME programs) Thousands of us will pay the price professionally.

Then Osteopathy will reinvent itself again .

While I agree, I have worked with some real lame doctors who I would seriously consider well below normal intelligence. I have no idea how they made it to be a doctor. They were MD's, but I don't know that many DO's. There are many MD schools that are seriously questionable, too.

 

[fuegorama]

I want this thing to die, but these posts need to be answered.

 

[fuegorama]

While I agree, I have worked with some real lame doctors who I would seriously consider well below normal intelligence. I have no idea how they made it to be a doctor. They were MD's, but I don't know that many DO's. There are many MD schools that are seriously questionable, too.

As I posted above, "When a MD makes an error, he's human. When a DO screws up it's because he is a DO".

We are a tiny, relatively unknown and largely misunderstood minority. We must continue to develop razor-sharp medical accumen and deliver a product that is unique and desired. That's what osteopathy has to offer.

Starting a ton of underfunded, expensive schools w/little or no clinical support is not the way to do this.
The LCME funding requirements are there b/c that is what they believe it takes to make a good physician.
From the DO model, it is excessive overkill, but as our clerkship seeking students run out of places to rotate, we need to look at what our allo. brothers are doing right.

 

[fuegorama]

here is a link for all of you who just can't believe there is a physician shortage in GA and that we have underserved areas

http://gbpw.georgia.gov/vgn/images/...0015Fact Sheet - GAs Medical Schools 2006.pdf

Alright-
Let's run through this a little slow.
Why would the state of Georgia spend a bunch of money for a study w/ these predictable results? Do they like the colors? Is it the piles of cash dirtying the corners of the legislature?

or
Could it be that ~50% of Georgia relies on some form of state supported medicaid-type program?
They cannot decrease their need, but what if Georgia (the consumer) can increase supply? Can you take it from here?

I am all for charity, some state safety net, and physicianhood for those w/ the will and ability. But, I am also for paying off my loans and making a decent living as I work to help my fellow folks. A provider glut will hurt these goals.

On the provider note, remember you are in the Slippery South where the NP is a 5 semester degree. These ambitious gals and guys are being churned out by the thousands. Read this as more depression of demand.

For you Tallulah, I encourage you to look at the cost of your school, then look at Emory's. Who will owe more....really? Who will get that residency, that job, that check upon completion of training?

And to flog ol' Sparky again-who will be receiving the training that will assist them reach that ultimate goal of providing superior, competent care for their patients?

PM me if you want to continue.
Now can we lock this thing?

 

[deezballas]

Let's be honest about this - while money isn't the only reason that we are getting into medicine, career decisions are not made in a vacuum where money isn't a consideration. Furthermore there's nothing wrong with it being a consideration.

Only someone who failed math class would go to school till they are 26 and run up $300,000 in student loans to get out and make $30k a year.

Just being real.

As you will see in my post I said "main reason". Come on bud, don't get defensive.... Makes me wonder. Too many doctors are jack asses who are in medicine purely for the money.

 

[MacGyver]

Try this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=shortage+of+doctors&btnG=Google+Search

Click on any of the 500 articles.

Thanks, because this proves my point exactly. Go to the USA today article and scroll down to the chart where it shows number of docs per capita in each state. YOu'll notice a nice little footnote at the bottom that says:


THIS STUDY EXCLUDES OSTEOPATHIC DOCTORS

Thats a HUGELY FLAWED STUDY right off the bat. Furthermore, it ignores NPs and PAs

 

[Taus]

so take a look at their numbers and fix the flaw....DO's represent around 5-6% of all docs...add that to the numbers given and see how it looks then....you can do the same for PA/NP, but I think that would be really tough unless there are stats that show how many of them are serving as PCP's vs. working as part of a team w/ docs

 

[docbill]

are you guys still going on about this thread.

When is this going to get shut down?!?!?!?!?