Why you should not attend a DO school

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drvlad2004 said:
P.S. A PCOM in Atlanta? Hmm, since when was Atlanta an underserved area? I hear that cash machine churning as we speak. Nowadays, it seems that More DO schools = Less AOA residencies.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2004/02/09/story8.html

"Schure said PCOM chose suburban Atlanta as the location for its first branch campus as a result of its relationship with the Osteopathic Institute of the South (OIS), a nonprofit medical education organization that provides third- and fourth-year clinical rotations to osteopathic medical students.

The OIS was established from the proceeds of the sale of Doctors Hospital, an osteopathic medical center in Tucker, Ga., in the late 1980s.

"A couple of years ago, the folks at the OIS thought it would be a good idea to establish a medical school with a mission of the recruitment and retention of medical students from the South for the South," Schure said.

The OIS approached PCOM, which was looking to expand its presence in the South, about its interest in establishing a branch campus in the Atlanta area."

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Guys,
Like you all said, it's a financial venture. Just like the Caribbean and European medical schools that take American graduates... It's a pathway to practice in the USA. You are paying for a legitimate opportunity to practice. A lot of people want to be doctors... especially in this great country. Very few have the patience to watch 2-3 years of their life pass by reapplying to a specific school. Look at all these post-bac programs.... two years added with no guarantees.... these guys must be hungry as hell for it. Most applicants will say "screw it" and go somewhere less desirable to them. It comes down to what is more valuable to you.... financial investment and ego OR Time. I want to be angry... but I understand business. It is tit for tat. In this case, it's $$$ for the privilege to graduate in 2006, be guaranteed USA licensure, be happy at the institution I am at, and not have to live in a foreign country. Caveat emptor. Hopefully JMC is right about the boards weeding out those that do not belong... if not, it will come back to haunt us.
ATnS

I should add... I feel that allopathic institutions are businesses too. Some just do a better job of not being so obvious.
 
I'm very happy to read this thread. I'm a junior in college and am preparing to apply to both MD and DO schools. There are several things I'd like to say, so I'll list them as individual points.

1. The tution at DO schools is scary high. It cost about 50k a year to attend the non-state supported schools. It is a very real problem that DO graduates simply CANNOT afford to enter into primary care fields. Reimbursment contiues to drop with no indication of a change in this trend. Right now it's manageable to pay back 200k in debt when you're making 150k a year. The scariest thing for me is that in 15 or 20 years, FP's might only be making 90k/year in todays money.

2. The quality of DO GME is really laughable. I don't know any MD's who will outright discriminate against the DO degree per se, but I know many MD's and DO's who will discriminate against DO residencies. The AOA seems to not care about this. Every year DO residencies are closing, leaving fewer and fewer spots for residents. With so much emphasis on preserving the purity of the DO do, the AOA sure does a good job of forcing DO's into MD residencies.

3. As stated earlier, the 3 and 4 years of DO school are highly variable. If I go to DO school, I plan to do my 3rd year at the required CORE location, and then make a b-line for the nearest Allo teaching center for the 4th year.

4. There are two "houses" in the DO world. Those who are "old school" and seem against inclusion of MD ideas (seeminly those who are running the AOA) and those who want to bring the areas of allopathic medicine that outshine osteopathy (research, GME) into the DO world. This split seems to be very much along generational lines. It seems ******ed that the AOA is really going to alienate SOOO many of it's students. It even seems that some of the schools are moving away from focusing so much on OMT. Soon the AOA may only technically represent most of the DO schools. LECOM may be the only place on the plant some of those nut jobs are welcome.

P.S. Please excuse my bashing of LECOM. It's my understanding that of all the DO schools, it's the most questionable in terms of admissions, quality of teaching, and perpetuation of crap like cranial osteopathy.

OMM has a place in medicine. I really believe this. But we live in a modern age evidence based medicine. So lets do the research that shows what OMM works and what should be removed from the curriculum. Using manip to treat back pain and joint sprains is cool. Using cranial to cure asthma is not.

5. The current problems with clinical/GME education as well as the inclusion of questionable OMM is hurting osteopathy's ability to positively impact health care. My favorite physicians, both to learn from and be treated by, are DO's. They are generally friendlier, more down to earth, more willing to listen, and more willing to teach patients than the MD's I've met. These are positive things, and one of the things that attracts me to osteopathy.

6. DO's have got to do research, both basic science and clinical. Some schools are getting into it, some are not. Basically DO's have been "stealing" MD and PhD research. That's ok, academic knowledge should be freely availabe... with the cavet that the users CONTRIBUTE back to the pool of knowledge. This is a personal opinion of mine, but one that affects me quite strongly.

So there it is. These issues are all VERY much at the front of my mind. I had a ridiculous freshman of college (to the tune of a 2.1 sci and 2.8 cum. GPA) and since then have brought those numbers up to 3.2sci and 3.3 cum. The point being is that if I did well on the MCAT, I have maybe a 50/50 shot of getting into my state MD school (Kansas). Probably a relatively much better shot at the DO schools in my area... So there is a good chance I'll be deciding if it's better to go DO (the direction I'm leaning now) or spend and extra year in school bringing up my grades even more...
 
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Stoic,

While your points are for the most part sound and eloquent, I do take exception with your claim that DO's have some sort of obligation to "give back" to the pool of medical knowledge. Setting aside the fact that they already do this, you're drawing a false distinction. One could take your argument and say that MDs are stealing all the good work of nuclear physicists, and should give back to the field of particle physics in return for the MRI.

Some people research, some practice. Both are needed. I see no problem with a corner of medicine (and osteopathy is a corner) that focuses predominantly on care rather than research. We don't need to de-stratify research such that we have a lot of it going on in all corners of medicine.

There will always be plenty of researchers; there aren't enough primary care docs. Osteopathy, I think, is going in the right direction between its focus on expansion and primary care.
 
stoic said:
1. The tution at DO schools is scary high. It cost about 50k a year to attend the non-state supported schools. It is a very real problem that DO graduates simply CANNOT afford to enter into primary care fields. Reimbursment contiues to drop with no indication of a change in this trend. Right now it's manageable to pay back 200k in debt when you're making 150k a year. The scariest thing for me is that in 15 or 20 years, FP's might only be making 90k/year in todays money.
The tuition for private DO schools is the same as private MD schools such as Temple, Drexel, Finch, SLU, LLU, Tufts, Boston, Northwestern, etc.

DO grads from private schools along with MD grads from private schools CAN afford to go into primary care. A simple analysis shows this:

A doctor who enters into family practice now will probably start at 120K a year. Assume that after loans, the student owes 220K a year once he starts practice (this will be my situation). After state and federal taxes that 120K become about 75K net or about 6K a month.

You would pay 2K a month for 10 years leaving you with 4K for all other expenses which is enough to live comfortably. If your spouse also earns money, that adds to the 4K a month net.

The caveat is in 7 years, the starting salary of an FP may be about 140K due to inflation. The good thing is your debt won't increase but your salary will. Thus that 6K a month can go up to 7K or even 8K a month.

What this means that IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING AS A PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN WITH A 200K DEBT.
 
while it is good to discuss the money issue involved it is also important not to forget the goal of being a physician. If these things are crossing minds of the premeds then it is prob the best for them not to attend DO schools.
True, DO schools prob are making a lot of $$ from this, but at the same time let's not forget that the DOs that are practicing now are making the same amount of $$ as their MD counterparts. There may be more $$ to pay off, but in the end, DOs are practicing the same medicine as MDs. I suppose by the standard of this thread the Carribbean MD students may want to complain, many other US private MD school students may also want to complain. Which leaves the state MD schools and state DO schools...and that's about half (or maybe less) of the med schoosl out there.
 
kpax18 said:
while it is good to discuss the money issue involved it is also important not to forget the goal of being a physician. If these things are crossing minds of the premeds then it is prob the best for them not to attend DO schools.
True, DO schools prob are making a lot of $$ from this, but at the same time let's not forget that the DOs that are practicing now are making the same amount of $$ as their MD counterparts. There may be more $$ to pay off, but in the end, DOs are practicing the same medicine as MDs. I suppose by the standard of this thread the Carribbean MD students may want to complain, many other US private MD school students may also want to complain. Which leaves the state MD schools and state DO schools...and that's about half (or maybe less) of the med schoosl out there.

1. MD students complain all the time about their tuition. Find one and talk to him/her. However, their complaints aren't as justified as DO students. MD schools provide stable in-house clinical rotations. Most DO schools do not. This is the crux of my argument. Not the 1st two years, but the 3rd-4th years.

2. MD Caribbean students don't complain because this was the last option for them. Either pay or choose another profession. While the same can be said for a lot of DO students, there are a significant number that chose DO over MD for whatever reasons.
 
I just don't think this money issue is limited to DO schools. I have friends who attend Rosalind Franklin, where the tuition only is $36,740 not including fees and other supplies. On top of that, they don't even have a teaching hospital of their own. Where does that money go? Sure, many students have complained to administration and brought up formal grievances to the administration and they are beginning to do something about it. I am sure that there are other private medical colleges wether MD or DO that are like this. So, IMO, this arguement is just hot air. I don't think complaining to other DO students and prospective DO students accomplishes anything except establishing low morale and doubts.

I agree with kpax. We should at least try to do something within the organizations to improve. We are the next generation of DO's and we will soon run the show.
 
DireWolf said:
1. MD students complain all the time about their tuition. Find one and talk to him/her. However, their complaints aren't as justified as DO students. MD schools provide stable in-house clinical rotations. Most DO schools do not. This is the crux of my argument. Not the 1st two years, but the 3rd-4th years.

2. MD Caribbean students don't complain because this was the last option for them. Either pay or choose another profession. While the same can be said for a lot of DO students, there are a significant number that chose DO over MD for whatever reasons.

true, something needs to be done regarding rotation and PGY yrs. i suppose the questions now are what has been done, what else needs to be done and how to do it. i think there's been quite a few venting and not enough solutions proposed. for starters- writing to darryl beehler DO ?
 
So by your logic, we should ban all negative comments directed at osteopathic medicine for fear that it may hurt the profession? Communism here we come. :thumbup:

So every time I have a complaint about osteopathic medicine, I should only go to the AOA and school administration and ignore SDN? I shouldn't convey my feelings on SDN because that's just blowing a lot of hot air? So I'm allowed to "take action" but not express my ideas in words on a public forum? OK.

Relax people. This is a "forum". This is where people discuss issues, give advice, and argue over relevant topics.

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they should be quiet or shut up.

You guys would have been great debaters. :rolleyes:
 
Perhaps, what I said was misunderstood. Sure, most of this thread has revolved around venting and complaining, but now I think we should be more constuctive and offer possible solutions. Additionally, I don't think we should "ban" our comments for fear of "hurting" the profession, but rather comment more constructively (for lack of a better word). What do you think?
 
DireWolf said:
So by your logic, we should ban all negative comments directed at osteopathic medicine for fear that it may hurt the profession? Communism here we come. :thumbup:

So every time I have a complaint about osteopathic medicine, I should only go to the AOA and school administration and ignore SDN? I shouldn't convey my feelings on SDN because that's just blowing a lot of hot air? So I'm allowed to "take action" but not express my ideas in words on a public forum? OK.

Relax people. This is a "forum". This is where people discuss issues, give advice, and argue over relevant topics.

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they should be quiet or shut up.

You guys would have been great debaters. :rolleyes:

My point is not to keep everything in the hush-hush, you're right, this is a forum and I am glad that we have all these comments, neg or pos, or else why bother having this discussion? Like I said, while it is good to discuss the issues at hand, let's not forget the long-term goal. This is not to say the "neg" comments are not welcomed, but rather, and hopefully something positive can come out of it.
maybe we should get SDN involved in the AOA....
 
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ResidentEvil said:
Another tip: The "new" school opening up in Bradenton, FL. Why did LECOM start a school there? is it because of the perceived lack of care in central florida? Oh wait, there is Univ of FL, Univ of Miami, Univ of South Florida (in Tampa, about 30 minutes away from LECOM-FL), FSU, and Nova Southeastern Univeristy COM. No, that's not it. There are plenty of medical schools.

It is because the administrators and professors at LECOM all own property on Lakewood Ranch near the school. They plan to retire, and still work part time for LECOM to supplement their income. They ALL OWN HOUSES NEAR THE SCHOOL. That is why there is a new school there.

They are flying down their professors, so they don't have to hire new ones and give them benefits. Easy-peasy.

I find this a little strange because only 3 of the professors are coming down from Erie. Two others came from USF, including the former head of their anatomy dept. As for administration, the associate dean comes from Cuyahoga Falls medical education dept. and the assistant dean comes from COMP. Who cares why they built the school there anyway? I'll be paying about 30k/year, basically what everyone else pays for their medschool, and I'll be in a brand new building with all new facilities and I'll have over 70 hospitals around the eastern US to choose from for rotations. They are adding even more rotation sites in Florida as well as forming new residency programs in many specialties (not PC). I just don't really see the argument - even in cases where you feel students are being ripped off, this is capitalism. Every business is about maximizing profits. If what you say is true, DO schools have found a niche in the medical education marketplace and are filling it successfully - more power to 'em.
 
Great topic, and it's about time someone brought all this up. With your kind permission, I'd like to bring a slightly different perspective to it.

A lot of people are saying that DO schools are -- as one poster put it -- "shady, money-making operations." Wrong. DO schools are medical schools. They make doctors, and they CERTAINLY make money. MD schools are the same. They make doctors, and they also make a HELL of a lot of money. I must at this time reiterate the point initially raised by oceandoc -- in this whole argument, we are ASSUMING that the first-yr tuition pays for the first-yr expenses, second-yr for second-yr, etc, and that all of the money from 3rd and 4th year is basically pocketed since in many or all cases (I confess I don't know if this is true across ALL DO schools) DO professors in 3rd and 4th year are volunteers. This is a dangerous assumption.

We must understand that this might not be the case. It is entirely possible and even likely that money from all classes pays for the expenses of running a medical school. These expenses are NOT just the expenses incurred by the members of each class. Factor in salaries for everyone from the custodial staff to the president/dean, including secretaries, financial aid officers, assistant deans, all the profs, and so on...and we could just as easily believe that the money from the 3rd and 4th year classes goes to provide their payment/salaries. It is just as believable a possibility. Yes, I am putting it out here ONLY AS A HYPOTHETICAL, so NO, I don't believe that that is what actually happens. But the fact remains that none of us know how the money at medical schools is spent. We haven't seen the books, despite what any of us say. As I said, this was brought up by a previous poster (oceandoc, I think), and the question was, in my opinion, not sufficiently answered.

If we are going to push around the DO schools for the way they ALLEGEDLY handle their money, and if we are going to come onto this board and tell people "not to go to DO school" because they are "shady money-making operations," then please be ready to assign this scarlet letter to every higher-learning institution in this country, be it medical, law, undergrad, whatever. They are ALL in the business of making money, and we might not like the way they do it sometimes.

Example: do you know why your financial aid award check (if you receive financial aid) is held for a number of days (a policy which many administrators would say is based on nothing -- some schools call this "posting" your check) before the residual check, the money you live on, is given to you? Because the school is making money off of your money for those few days. Let's say you go to a school that (these are arbitrary numbers) charges $25000 to attend, and you are allotted $15000 a year to live on. So you get a loan for $40000 per year. Do you get your money on the DAY that the school gets it? Of course not. There is a time lag of days to months between the moment the school receives your loan money from the government or bank or whatever, and the day you get your significantly smaller check. IN THAT TIME period, your ENTIRE loan amount (the 40 grand) is put into a bank account (I doubt it's an ordinary savings, though I confess I don't know what kind), and the school POCKETS the interest off of it. After these few days, or in many cases up to several months, the school takes its tuition, gives you the rest, and off you go. But the school has made some extra money off of you. Now, it might not sound like much, but if, say, your local medical school, MD OR DO, has 100 students per class, and every student's loan money is kept in one big account for days/weeks/months, that's a lot of cash. Consider now that your local college or university has ALL of those undergrads, graduate students, medical students, law students, whatever kind of student...and you get the picture. Schools make freaking millions by this technique. Do you feel cheated?

Is it shady? Whether it's shady or not, it is 100% completely LEGAL. It happens all the time at every college in the nation. And this is just ONE example. My point: DO schools are no shadier than any other learning institution. MD schools do it. DO schools do it. Everyone does it. The fact is, until we know the exact breakdown of how money is spent at DO schools AND any other college, maybe it's best not to single out DO schools as being shady, especially with very little evidence that the initial premise that this whole discussion is based on is factual.

It also has to be considered again (it has been mentioned before) that DO schools are usually NOT affiliated with large universities/colleges, and cannot count on a lot of state money, cannot count on research grants, and cannot count on huge amounts of alumni donations. The students simply have to foot the bill for this deficit. Maybe it will change in the future.

Now, the original poster does bring up important points, like the need to monitor school spending on administration salaries. This is especially important in a comparatively young profit-making construct like osteopathic education. Indeed, when tuitions are increased by a certain percentage, but student cost-of-living allottment does NOT increase by the same percentage, students need to be asking questions.

Finally, to the people on here saying that, because of this discussion and the alleged truths revealed in it, they will NOT go to a DO school, or they are reevaluating their decision to apply to DO schools...well, you are making a career decision based on an internet message board, and on what I feel is conjecture. And I don't know of any clinical-year attending who would give you a lesser education because they aren't getting paid. Any doctor with a conscience or with any care for the future of their profession will teach you what you need to know -- and do not forget, at any level, your education is WHAT YOU MAKE IT.

Looking forward to responses.

BP
 
good response :thumbup:
 
At great risk to myself :) , I am going to try to defend LECOM. First of all, the profs going down to Florida purchased homes very recently. They did not own property down there prior to the school opening. In fact, it was only recently decided who was going to Florida.

Second, our tuition is the lowest of all of the private DO schools. Granted, $23,000/ year is a lot of money. However, if you look at the increase in income over a lifetime that each of us will make compared to a person who only has a bachelor's degree in biology, medical school is definitely worth it. I will owe LECOM $92,000 when I leave, which I hope will be about 1/2 of one year's salary. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Of course these schools are in this business to make money. As long as there are qualified students who are willing to pay this amount of money to attend medical school, they would be insane not to charge top dollar. (After all, last time I checked, this was still a capitalist society.) Besides, who wants to attend a bargain basement medical school?

Finally, I am not trying to flame anyone else here. However, I am getting really sick of people who attended a 4 hour interview at LECOM thinking that they are informed enough to attack the students and the education. I had a good GPA and a great MCAT score, and Lecom was my first choice. Last year, the 3rd highest score on the COMLEX came out of LECOM. The PBL program (my program) had a 95% COMLEX pass rate. That doesn't sound like a substandard program to me.

We spend a total of 2 OMM sessions on cranial where we practice trying to find the cranial rhythm. Granted, some of the OMM profs are a bit new age, but they are definitely in the minority in the department.

I chose LECOM because they are progressive in their teaching styles, and I couldn't be happier with my choice. If there are things about our medical education that we would like to change once we're out of school, then we should lobby the AOA as a group. However, I have a feeling that many of the people complaining now will forget about future students once they start earning a real paycheck. I hope that you prove me wrong.
 
Adapt said:
DO grads from private schools along with MD grads from private schools CAN afford to go into primary care. A simple analysis shows this:

A doctor who enters into family practice now will probably start at 120K a year. Assume that after loans, the student owes 220K a year once he starts practice (this will be my situation). After state and federal taxes that 120K become about 75K net or about 6K a month.

You would pay 2K a month for 10 years leaving you with 4K for all other expenses which is enough to live comfortably. If your spouse also earns money, that adds to the 4K a month net[/B]

But the question is do you feel comfortable spending 11+ years in school to live off of $48,000 dollars a year? I don't. I'm really not going to med school to get rich, but I do want to settle nicely into an upper-middle class existance and drive a BMW 3 series (or maybe a used 5 series....) Don't forget that a person who goes directly from undergrad to med school will not be able to start saving any meaningful amount of money for retirement until after residency. You've got to play catch-up with all those people who've been saving 5 or 10 thousand a year since they were 24 or 25.

My plan is to sign up for rural service obligation loan forgiveness programs. I from small town Kansas, and I want to practice in small town Kansas. Even with this programs, I'll still end up borrowing upwards $100,000 for my education.

In any case, I think it's really important to realize that the critics in this thread aren't calling osteopathy a lost cause. I think we all believe that DO's have a very valuable service to offer medicine. In the other thread about this topic, one of the posters used the term "unrealized potential" to descripe the profession and I couldn't agree more. If I didn't think DO's could offer their patients top quality care with a little bit of a holistic twist, I wouldn't even consider the profession. I believe in the efficacy of most OMM, but I want to see that efficacy verified.

I really think that the next 20 years are going to be the most important in the history of osteopathy. DO's need to define their role and place in the medical education system. Osteopathic hospitals are becoming a thing of the past. The only time I hear of osteopathic hospitals, it is because aother one is closing. Oh wait, that's not exactly true. Riverside Osteopathic Hospital in Wichita was on the news a few months ago because it was going to close, but then was instead absorbed into the Via Christi health system...

DO clinical education and GME are going to be some of the definitive issues in the profession in the very near future. Some DO's feel that educating students/residents at MD institutions is paramount to giving up their distinctness as a profession. To this I say if education at old hospitals with low patient volume and acuity and extra treatment with unproven manipulitive modalities are the only thing that make DO's distinct as a profession, then we have a problem.

I want nothing but the for the best for Osteopathy. I want to be a DO. But there are some issues that I feel need to be addressed to ensure the integrity of the profession. Luckily, we obviously have a generation of students/residents/young professionals who are starting to talk about what direction the profession should go in!
 
sddoc said:
Finally, I am not trying to flame anyone else here. However, I am getting really sick of people who attended a 4 hour interview at LECOM thinking that they are informed enough to attack the students and the education. I had a good GPA and a great MCAT score, and Lecom was my first choice. Last year, the 3rd highest score on the COMLEX came out of LECOM. The PBL program (my program) had a 95% COMLEX pass rate. That doesn't sound like a substandard program to me.

Thank you so much, sddoc! I was thinking the same thing as I was reading this thread (as well as many others that have popped up on SDN in the past). WTF does someone who spent a couple hours at LECOM know about the school? Yes, I have been irritated with the Ferretti empire (although I am less so now because I'm not in Erie anymore), but I love it when someone says, "When I interviewed no students looked happy" or "I know someone who knows someone who goes to LECOM and he/she says..." and thinks their opinion is an expert opinion. I have been less than satisfied at times with LECOM, but that is just stress of medical school life. I received a great education during the pre-clinical years at LECOM and feel I was prepared well for rotations. The professors were great for the most part (we had a few bad ones, but you have got to be kidding me if you think LECOM is the only school with a few so-so professors).

Sorry, I usually ignore these threads, but I'm really sick of all the anti-LECOM stuff.

Carry on. :)
 
I'm happy to see this discussion from those that are actually in the trenches. It makes my decision much easier. :thumbup:
 
BigPimpin said:
Example: do you know why your financial aid award check (if you receive financial aid) is held for a number of days (a policy which many administrators would say is based on nothing -- some schools call this "posting" your check) before the residual check, the money you live on, is given to you? Because the school is making money off of your money for those few days. Let's say you go to a school that (these are arbitrary numbers) charges $25000 to attend, and you are allotted $15000 a year to live on. So you get a loan for $40000 per year. Do you get your money on the DAY that the school gets it? Of course not. There is a time lag of days to months between the moment the school receives your loan money from the government or bank or whatever, and the day you get your significantly smaller check. IN THAT TIME period, your ENTIRE loan amount (the 40 grand) is put into a bank account (I doubt it's an ordinary savings, though I confess I don't know what kind), and the school POCKETS the interest off of it. After these few days, or in many cases up to several months, the school takes its tuition, gives you the rest, and off you go. But the school has made some extra money off of you. Now, it might not sound like much, but if, say, your local medical school, MD OR DO, has 100 students per class, and every student's loan money is kept in one big account for days/weeks/months, that's a lot of cash. Consider now that your local college or university has ALL of those undergrads, graduate students, medical students, law students, whatever kind of student...and you get the picture. Schools make freaking millions by this technique. Do you feel cheated?
BP


thank GOD there is someone else out there who knows this FACT!!!!!!! I hate financial aid-disbursement time--My bp goes way up while I'm trying to explain to ppl why we don't get our disbursements on the said dates.

At DO schools, as in the rest of the world, there are things we see and things we don't see. I am happy to know that I have peers (res evil, direwolf and many others) who truly care about these issues that surround DO schools. Because hopefully these are the folks who will represent the profession in the future. We have a lot of straightening out to do.

Have a great Sunday!
M.
 
I just wanted to clarify something said earlier in the thread re: LECOM and the shady fees we get charged. I agree, the microscope fee, graduation fee, health fee...WTF?? But on the bright side of things...our SGA heard enough complaints about these things that they took them to the administration, and they did away with most of them. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure it wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts..and it doesn't change the fact that they tried (and succeeded!) to get away with charging them in the first place. But it does make the point that maybe we as a group need to take a stand and ask these questions, through appropriate channels, and maybe then things will change, as they did at LECOM (in an admitedly small way).

As an aside, they did NOT get rid of our outrageous grad fee, so I'm with the mystery pm'er....I'm expecting one hell of a party in 2006, baby! :rolleyes:
 
I'm back from call, rested for a few hours, got a bag of potato chips in my stomach, and am ready to post.

It seems my original idea has been twisted by those rushing to the defensive. Let me re-iterate and focus on the main issue at hand.

I am not anti-DO. I am one! Sheesh! I am proud to be a DO! My patients can tell the difference, the nurses I work with love me, I do well on my inservice exams, and I am top amongst my peers (tied with another DO). I have never regretted going to a DO school (only jealous of those MDs who only owe 60k coming out). I am semi-proud of my education. Like some other posters have said, the DO education system offers a basic education. You can either fly with it or flounder in it. As a DO resident in an MD institution with over 450+ residents and fellows (the vast majority MDs), I know what my colleagues know. I see MD students. I know what i knew as a DO student. I'm not here comparing that. That is another topic that we can all discuss ad nauseum . That's not what my thread initially was about (and that's ok if it has changed...).

I am angered at the scam that DO schools are putting on. Taking the money that students put up, thinking it goes towards their medical education, and having the school disburse it amongst its private owners and administration. It is nothing worse than the Enron birthday party with Roman dancers and models. Why should the stockholders have to pay for such a lavish lifestyle?! (Atleast the DO schools aren't going bankrupt).

There is a lot of LECOM defense. I only put that up as one example. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. But let it be known that i did not attend LECOM. But I know several graduates of LECOM as well as an ex-professor. I talk to several students.

And their business model does not stray far from the other DO schools.

LECOM has a 95% pass rate for COMLEX?! I don't care. They're ranked #1 in 2nd trimester angiotensin inhibition leukotriene cytokine research? I could care less. That's not what my issue is about. It is not about the quality of osteopathic education.

It is about the behind the scenes management of our tuition.

The DO schools care about the bottom line. That's fine. Its a business. This has been discussed.

But what htey don't seem to care about is all the new DO graduates they are pumping into the system. How about an increase in the # of osteopathic residency programs (bedamned the quality). Where are all these graduates going to do their training? Go to the MD world? Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive?

Yes, I know there are open DO training spots around the country. But look at the quality of them.

My classmates who graduated with me are vastly doing DO training. I am still good friends with them. Almost half of their intern class failed COMLEX Step 3. Is this a product of their medical school? Of their post-graduate training? Or of them, as medical school applicants who couldn't quite cut it, and had to take a post-baccalaureate year? I don't know, and it doesn't matter. But what does bother me is that the DO medical education system pushed these people through without thinking about them. Without caring about the product they are manufacturing.

They just want to meet the bottom line.

Who cares about the # of osteopathic slots. Who cares about the increasing number of DO graduates. Who cares if they pass their licensing exams.

As long as they pay their tuition, listen to our attendance rules, and promote the DO profession (like blind mice... or lemmings). Make SURE they pay their tuition! Otherwise we wont' be able to open up MORE DO schools around the nation in places that need them (gee, like Atlanta, or Vegas, or Tampa).

RE
 
Some of you guys are a bunch of osteopathic bitches. All you do is sit here an cry about this and that. Waahhhhhhhhhh, where does our tuition go. Wahhhhhhhh, our residencies suck. Wahhhhhhhhhhh, DO schools suck.

STOP YOUR BITCHIN AND GRAB SOME BALLS. I never realized how many crybabies there are in osteopathic schools.

What the worst thing is, is that you guys do nothing about it. You sit around like a bunch of old farts who cry about the government yet don't vote or do nothing about it. If you want to change the profession, get off your asses and do something about it. STOP THE CRYING YOU BABIES.
 
Insert said:
Some of you guys are a bunch of osteopathic bitches. All you do is sit here an cry about this and that. Waahhhhhhhhhh, where does our tuition go. Wahhhhhhhh, our residencies suck. Wahhhhhhhhhhh, DO schools suck.

STOP YOUR BITCHIN AND GRAB SOME BALLS. I never realized how many crybabies there are in osteopathic schools.

What the worst thing is, is that you guys do nothing about it. You sit around like a bunch of old farts who cry about the government yet don't vote or do nothing about it. If you want to change the profession, get off your asses and do something about it. STOP THE CRYING YOU BABIES.

Gee, thanks for your wonderful insight, insert. You always are offering such sage advice, and in such a mature manner! Oh joy!

Keep the Sabbath Holy.

RE
 
ResidentEvil, you my fellow colleague, are the King osteopathic Bitch (KOB).

Your point in posting this thread was not to simply cry about what's wrong, but to make everyone else feel as resentful toward DOs as you do and to stop other premeds from applying to osteopathic schools. You're not proud to be a DO. You resent it because you're mad since you only applied to DO schools and you didn't even give yourself a chance to be an MD. Your insecurity as a DO manifests itself in this thread as you try to stir up ****.

Well king bitch, I called you on it. STOP YOUR CRYING.
 
Insert said:
ResidentEvil, you my fellow colleague, are the King osteopathic Bitch (KOB).

Your point in posting this thread was not to simply cry about what's wrong, but to make everyone else feel as resentful toward DOs as you do and to stop other premeds from applying to osteopathic schools. You're not proud to be a DO. You resent it because you're mad since you only applied to DO schools and you didn't even give yourself a chance to be an MD. Your insecurity as a DO manifests itself in this thread as you try to stir up ****.

Well king bitch, I called you on it. STOP YOUR CRYING.

By God, I'd never thought of it this way.

EVERYONE! INSERT SHOWED ME HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM. All we have to do is ignore it. We'll keep sucking it up! That will surely make all these problems go away :rolleyes:

There isn't any crying here. This is a discussion. Hopefully the ideas exchanged here will inspire change.
 
stoic said:
By God, I'd never thought of it this way.

EVERYONE! INSERT SHOWED ME HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM. All we have to do is ignore it. We'll keep sucking it up! That will surely make all these problems go away :rolleyes:

There isn't any crying here. This is a discussion. Hopefully the ideas exchanged here will inspire change.
If you think there is a problem then do something about it. It does not help to just talk about it.
 
Insert said:
If you think there is a problem then do something about it. It does not help to just talk about it.

So every time I have a complaint about osteopathic medicine, I should only go to the AOA and school administration and ignore SDN? I shouldn't convey my feelings on SDN because that's just blowing a lot of hot air? So I'm allowed to "take action" but not express my ideas in words on a public forum?
 
Insert said:
If you think there is a problem then do something about it. It does not help to just talk about it.

It's true that at eventually you need action, but discusion and exchange of ideas always precedes successful action. I would love to take action, but what would I do? I'm applying to DO schools next cycle and right now, no one in the medical community (MD or DO) give a **** less about what I say. Hell, I'm lucky when people read my post on SDN.

The leadership needed to make sure that DO's have a strong profession in the future is very important to me. As I've said before, I think that the next 20 years will literally make or break this profession. I intend to bring this up in every one of my interviews. We need more consistant clinical rotations. We absolutely MUST HAVE more and better residencies. The efficacy of OMM must be proven to justify it's use for more than back/joint pain.

This might keep me out of some, or possibly even all of the DO schools I apply to. If that's the case, then so be it. I don't want to go to an institution that is unwilling to acknowledge these problems.

I think osteopaths have a great deal to offer medicine and patients. I want to offer my patients care that focuses on increasing wellness, not care that focuses only on a specific infection/disorder and leaves that illness out of context of overall health. I want to be generalist first and offer my patients a spectrum of care that is useful from the cradle to the grave. I want to be a DO... I'm just don't really want to do my residency in a DO program. Hopefully, with the right leadership and the right changes, future generations of DO's won't feel the way I do.
 
I think it is good to get involved in the AOA itself, even as a student, to try to get the slow process of change underway. I applied for and received a student position on an AOA committee for this reason. I'm not expecting to make any significant strides as a student, but I'm getting out there and getting my foot in the door. If all of us "new" DOs did this, there would be changes.


Those of you who aren't doing this should at least make sure your representatives (every school has some) hear your views.
 
so i shall bring it up again, what about the idea of getting SDN involved in AOA?
 
What about this:

We could use SDN to organize a letter to the AOA outlining the some of the concerns listed during these discussions.

There are enough pre-DO/DO students and practicing DO's on this site that even if not all participating, we could potentially send a letter with several hundred signatures.

So maybe this letter idea isn't going to change the world... BUT it's a start. A letter from a large group of self organized premed studetns, med students, AND practicing DO's might actually wake somebody up over in AOA land. More importantly, it would let them know how strongly the younger/future DO's care about the future of the profession and how important it is to us to start addressing these issues right now.

Specifically, I think that if this letter were to happen, a main point should be disclosure of the financial structure of DO schools. I'm not sure if the AOA actually has this info... but at least it would let them know that we are thinking and concerned about it. At the very least the AOA would likely send us a letter in return that might have some useful/interesting info in it. If they were to blow us off, well, thems fightin words. A blowoff would serve as a HUGE rallying point and would likely get even more people interested.

Comments? Suggestins? Flames?

Dave
 
A few points:

1) For the conspiracy-theorists out there who think the D.O. administrators are akin to the Enron leadership, as was above noted: I ask you, what is a doctor worth to you? If the average surgeon makes $275,000, shouldnt the Dean of a medical school make a similar salary? Less? More? What is fair? Should they volunteer their time to run your school in hopes of giving you a decent education?

I suggest instead of rallying our anger at the administration for wanting the same salary they were making in practice, we aim it at Congress. Funding for higher education is shrinking. The Higher Education Act is up for reauthorization this year. Title VII provides much of the funding for our loans and grants for medical education. There hasnt been increases to this funding structure for a decade. Hence, as the costs of operating a medical school increase, tuition will increase if the money isnt coming from elsewhere. Simple math.

Osteopathic schools feel the brunt of this even more, as they see very little income from research, hospital revenue, or endowments. Tuition dollars are the foundation of their funding structure. However, MDs are also feeling the crunch. Read the following articles on how MD schools are hiking tuition also:

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2003/09/01/prsb0901.htm
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2003/02/17/prsa0217.htm

Is education a business? Absolutely. I still ask how you expect to lure doctors out of practice to run a medical school without paying them at least what they were making in practice? Any ideas?

2) As far as the AOA: The AOA is actually not in total favor of these new schools opening up. The reason why these schools are branch campuses and not independent entities is because of a loophole that allows these schools to open another institution without reapplying for a new accreditation and jumping through the hoops which are required for a brand new school. In essence, it is an easy avenue to increase revenue, and revenue is precisely what these schools need, as noted above: Shrinking reimbursements and skyrocketing costs. Are the motives totally altruistic? Maybe not, there is always self-incentive in a capitalistic market, however, with the current financial status of some of these schools, they really have no other choice.

Higher education is America is really at a cross-roads. The for-profit entities are giving the non-profit institutions some real competition. Did you know Kaplan is about to open a fully-accredited, for-profit, law school? The cost will supposedly be less than many private institutions. Is this a good thing? We'll find out, but the federal government is seriously considering getting out of the education business and letting the market determine where the value lies. Within 10 years I will bet that graduate medical education, (funding for residencies and fellowships) will be severely altered. The feds are asking why they must pay hospitals to educate physicians who make the hospitals money and will then go out to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year after that. It's a real concern. There already is change circulating in the waters. Stay tuned. We'll all be a part, whether we like it or not....
 
There are a lot more posts on this thread since yesterday. I tried to read through most of them, but I was thinking about this yesterday. Somebody in an earlier post mentions credit loads and the such from undergrad colleges. I don't even think you need to think about it that way. The average cost of a private undergrad is somewhere in the range of 25-30,000. Plus many of these institutions have grad schools. So your talking numbers in the thousands, or tens of thousands of students paying as much as many private med schools and may of these students won't even have degrees they can do much with. Do you think all of this money is spent solely on students educations??? Certainly not you're talking about ALOT of money here. Some could argue that many of these institutions have research, etc. However, I'm sure that any of you that have been involved in research before, know that most of the money there comes from grants not university funding. So, I guess the bottom line point I"m trying to make is that this should not be an arguement for not attending a school. THis is the sad state of affairs that higher education in general is in. At least be thankful that you'll have a good means to support yourself after you earn your degree. All that being said. I'm not saying that there are not problems with the DO school system like it has been pointed out in several threads the last couple days/weeks.
 
Ok, as most of you know who have seen me post, I am so pro DO that most think I believe it's a religion or something....but I have gripes too.

To address the first post in the thread, here in my state, the State Government actually regulates the 3rd and 4th year training so that none of the attendings get paid for training the MD students. When my school was started, we intended to pay attendings to train our students, but the MD schools actually came to us and said not too. They gave us acceptace into their state run program to keep us from paying docs to teach, therefore keeping docs from complaining that our teaching docs get paid and theirs do not. So bottom line, here in this Commonwealth, both MD schools and the DO are raping the students tuition during the 3rd and 4th years...

So where does our $ go??? Administration and to the Undergrad school. We are affiliated with a strugling private undergrad school. Once the DO program started up...all of the sudden the undergrad school gets a brand new football program...starts giving full ride scholarships for their mens and womens bowling team (not kidding), starts recruiting big time tennis players and track stars...renovates many buildings...builds a parking garage (at least we get to use it!)....etc..

Now, how are our facilities??? Well, our first year classroom leaks so bad that we have about 6-7 huge trash cans that collect water and about 4 rows of seats have been ruined. Our OMT lab tables have to be recovered with UAAO club $$. Students have to bring in their own skeleton models for the Kaplan people to use for the review because the school doesn't have one...a library that doesn't even get the AAO journal because of budget issues????

Do we get a good education??? If you want. We have the best OPP and pharm profs around, but if you want more, go get it yourself.

If Osteopathy really was a religion, we need a second coming of AT Still to get all this crap fixed. Since that isn't happening, it's time for us to act!

Peace, I'm out!
 
I agree that we must act. Unfortunatley, however I bet this thread falls to the bottom of the list never to be heard from again in a week and nobody will actually ever do anything except maybe post a few more comments. I mean what really can we be expected to do as lowly students?

The only thing I think we could do is maybe we could launch a ?giant? letter writing campaign. We need somebody to type up a formal letter addressing all of our concerns, then we can sign our names and add our AOA #'s and email them to the AOA. Yes, no?
 
hmm, I think it'd be interesting to see what kind of responses a "Why you should not attend a MD school" would in the MD forums

LOL :laugh: who's got my back :laugh: :p
 
Just to note:

I know that you guys are partially correct on the money for 3rd and 4th years and not completely right. Some money is paid but not alot of money is paid. Some DO students go all over their 4th year and may be at an allopathic hospital so I am pretty sure they get paid.

I don't doubt it is expensive and I know what the admin and professors make a decent salary but this is all business - no matter where you go. If your teachers and admin are happy most of the time the students are happy. I do think the school cares about me and what happens to me when I leave - they have to they will want my money so I disagree with Residentevil on this one.

I am proud regardless of UHS and what our school is all about it is a great place and we are growing and doing well. I think another thing to look at is alot of our schools are stand alones and that they don't have the support other institutions have.

thanks for the post
 
H0mersimps0n said:
LOL :laugh: who's got my back :laugh: :p

the one with the knife in it after you post in those boards?????

:D
 
drvlad2004 said:
I also see that the lack of research funding has trickled down to how the COMLEX is so poorly and anecdoctally written. Also, the lack of research by DOs probably contributes to the lack of intellectual mindset of DOs in the past. For the longest time I thought that NYCOM was the biggest money-grubbing school. However, it appears that it is the same problem at every other DO school. Using tuition as the main source of funding will eventually lead to DO schools imploding. The DO schools can push for primary care all that they want. However, with the high debt that we have incurred, why should all of us enter primary care besides for obvious reasons that the AOA states?

BTW, I have loved this discussion thus far. ResidentEvil, than you for starting this thread! Seriously, I would also like to find out, exactly, how my tuition is spent at NYCOM. I have heard that certain faculty members (i.e. chairmen) earning close to $300K/year, which is way too much. The lack of structure to how DO schools have been run and suddenly newly created may spell trouble to our profession. It is good thing that many people have not kept their mouths shut on this issue. Thank goodness that I will not be doing an osteopathic residency, which are often poorly regulated.

P.S. A PCOM in Atlanta? Hmm, since when was Atlanta an underserved area? I hear that cash machine churning as we speak. Nowadays, it seems that More DO schools = Less AOA residencies.


let me pose this to you all. consider, many MD staff/profs earn >> than 500k a year... and here many of you complain about your own DO staff/profs earning similar... when you get out as a doc, how much will you be earning?? lets see... how about 150-300k?? man you are ROBBING YOUR PATIENTS?? right?? well... no... you are not... and i dont think the administration is robbing us. we are provided a top notch education that sets us up to do anything out there in medicine we desire. is it right or wrong for the schools to change upwards of 30k+ per year when their expences approach zero?? well why not?? what law is against that?? more power to them for being able to charge that much for what they do, it must mean they are doing a great job. then you complain about more schools opening... well the only thing you should really be concerned about is the fact that there is a doctor shortage in this country that is driving our future salaries higher but with new schools comes more docs comes less of shortage comes less earnings. then it all gets back to the earnings again... if you are willing to shell out that kinda cash, which basically all of us are, then quit complaining about it unless you are actually gonna do something productive. get on a school board, or buy into a school or something so that you have a say or vote or control on what happens. charging huge amounts for tuition doesnt do much for class moral, but we still get what we want, and the government helps us get there financially while the schools help us get there legally and academically.

dont be complainers... be DO-ers ...

:idea:
 
I just wanted to say that many of you have put together cogent, interesting arguments about DO education. I hope that this conversation does not end on SDN and that some more can be done via the AOA. I am most worried about the clinical clerkships. Notoriously DO schools (due to the lack of closely affiliated hopsitals) have poor rotations and this is something that definetly should be adressed by the AOA. Also, the suspect quality of DO residencies is a major issue that needs more light shed on it. I commend all of you on your courage to look at these issues.

:thumbup:
 
Interesting thread. Too bad that it is dying a slow death. I have mixed emotions when it comes to my DO education. I find it ridiculous that new schools are opening up left and right, with obvious dilution of the matriculant pool. Downright disgusting. I don't however buy into some of the conspiracy theories around here that all that money is going towards houses, boats, pensions, etc of administrators. I do wonder where it all goes, though. The first 2 years are well enough at PCOM, the last two are what you make of them. The rotations range from excellent (very few) to mediocre (most) to pathetic (a few). The best rotations I had were at large allopathic medical centers, that I set uo without any help from the school. I was able to compare head to head at least 4 areas in which I did the same rotation - allopathic versus osteopathic. Allopathic won hands down every time. The issue of not paying our docs to teach has been discussed ad nauseum. It sucks eggs. We all know that. It is ridiculous that we pay 30K 3rd and 4th year for a pittance of an education. Especially 4th year. I paid 30K or so for 5 rotations. 2 were urban which is a JOKE 99% of the time, ER which was ABSOLOUTELY TERRIBLE, a pretty good sub-i and a month of rural. Oh and I got ZERO help from the school in my residency search. The ERAS coordinator was ON VACATION the first day info could be uploaded. ON VACATION. Unless you are doing an osteopathic res, the school is NO HELP. It would have been nice to talk to someone in my field of choice to try and narrow down my list of programs to apply to. I got the residency I wanted, where I wanted, so I don't have too much to complain about. I feel pretty ripped off though. Like most everyone else on this thread and the other ones, I am proud to be a DO, but I am not proud of how our profession and schools operate themselves. You can get where you want to go, it just takes some extra work. i welcome any inquiries.

bobo
 
bobo said:
I find it ridiculous that new schools are opening up left and right, with obvious dilution of the matriculant pool. Downright disgusting.

Don't you think that the high selectivity of medical schools means that adding another 150 spots/year is not going to "dilute" the pool? What I mean to say is that many qualified individuals are turned down from schools every year - not everyone who is rejected is unqualified. I think certainly the number of qualified people who don't gain a spot at one of the existing schools is greater than 150, or 300.
 
The AOA depends on feedback to better understand
D.O.
and student needs. We encourage you to urge your classmates to share
their
concerns with the AOA as well.

Sincerely,

Mike Campea
Public Relations Specialist
American Osteopathic Association
142 E. Ontario St.
Chicago, IL 60611
(312) 202-8043
(800) 621-1773, ext. 8043
(312) 202-8343 Fax

D.O.s: Physicians Treating People, Not Just Symptoms.

This is an excerpt from my former communication with the AOA. MAKE YOUR VOICES KNOWN!!

It seems that there are fewer disagreements with the original post than agreements.

Is it really true then?

Are we being fleeced in our 3rd and 4th years?
 
maybe someone should contact that person and point him to this thread. The written word is GOOD!

And I completely agree with bobo. Especially wtih applicant #s DOWN (significantly, especially compared to when I applied).

Q, DO
 
(nicedream) said:
Don't you think that the high selectivity of medical schools means that adding another 150 spots/year is not going to "dilute" the pool? What I mean to say is that many qualified individuals are turned down from schools every year - not everyone who is rejected is unqualified. I think certainly the number of qualified people who don't gain a spot at one of the existing schools is greater than 150, or 300.

Since I started medical school, VCOM has opened. From what I gather, FLECOM, Las Vegas and PCOM-Atlanta are all opening soon. 4 new schools. That's a pretty good # of new students. I cringe when I read some of the other threads where people talk about how many C's and D's they got in their basic sciences. My lowest science grade was a lone C+ in genetics. I am not a rocket scientist by any stretch of the means - but my gpa was upwards of 3.3 and my mcat was in the high 20's. Not great numbers, but somewhat respectable. Now I know that sdn is a small, probably non-representative sample of applicants and students but it seems pretty bad to me that people are being admitted with what I think are low gpa's and low mcats. I felt lucky to get in with the stats that i had. it seems that just about anybody can get in now, esp. since we all know that DO schools "look beyond the numbers" (aka an exscuse for letting in sometimes poor applicants).

bobo
 
bobo said:
Since I started medical school, VCOM has opened. From what I gather, FLECOM, Las Vegas and PCOM-Atlanta are all opening soon. 4 new schools. That's a pretty good # of new students. I cringe when I read some of the other threads where people talk about how many C's and D's they got in their basic sciences. My lowest science grade was a lone C+ in genetics. I am not a rocket scientist by any stretch of the means - but my gpa was upwards of 3.3 and my mcat was in the high 20's. Not great numbers, but somewhat respectable. Now I know that sdn is a small, probably non-representative sample of applicants and students but it seems pretty bad to me that people are being admitted with what I think are low gpa's and low mcats. I felt lucky to get in with the stats that i had. it seems that just about anybody can get in now, esp. since we all know that DO schools "look beyond the numbers" (aka an exscuse for letting in sometimes poor applicants).

bobo
Well put...Thanks for calling it like it is.
 
bobo said:
Since I started medical school, VCOM has opened. From what I gather, FLECOM, Las Vegas and PCOM-Atlanta are all opening soon. 4 new schools. That's a pretty good # of new students. I cringe when I read some of the other threads where people talk about how many C's and D's they got in their basic sciences. My lowest science grade was a lone C+ in genetics. I am not a rocket scientist by any stretch of the means - but my gpa was upwards of 3.3 and my mcat was in the high 20's. Not great numbers, but somewhat respectable. Now I know that sdn is a small, probably non-representative sample of applicants and students but it seems pretty bad to me that people are being admitted with what I think are low gpa's and low mcats. I felt lucky to get in with the stats that i had. it seems that just about anybody can get in now, esp. since we all know that DO schools "look beyond the numbers" (aka an exscuse for letting in sometimes poor applicants).

bobo

In the words of the Dude, "Well thats like...your opinion man."
 
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