Why you should not attend a DO school

[ResidentEvil]

Current lurker, rare poster on SDN.

I'm a second year resident in an allopathic institution, and a graduate of a DO program in 2002.

There's a lot of talk on this website about the new DO schools that are opening up (PCOM in Atlanta, LECOM in Florida, some school in Vegas, VCOM recently), and I feel I just have to let this out.

DO schools are the biggest money makers out there and they do NOT care about YOU as the student whatsoever. All you are doing is lining the pockets of the Dean, the administration, and the PRIVATE owners of the school.

My tuition in medical school started at 20k. When I ended, it was 28k. Why did I have to pay so much?

Ok, fair enough, the private MD school's tuition is roughly the same. But here's where the schools make their money (its a big secret, but I'm going to let it out):

When a medical student is in their third and fourth year, your attendings are paid by the school/university to teach you, to have you on their team. Your surgeon, your IM attending, your pediatrician attending... all reimbursed by the school (not much but enough) to take you in under their wing. Your tuition pays for this.

However, in the DO medical education system, your third and fourth year attendings are VOLUNTEERS. It is against the AOA philosophy to PAY the attendings. So, your school still collects the same tuition that the MD institutions are charging (that they use to pay the attnedings), and POCKETS the difference. This is a HUGE money maker. Think about it:

100 students. 30k a year tuition. That's 3 million a year. Multiply that by 4 years worth of students: $12 million a year, PER year. Since the third and fourth year students dont' require much expenditure, the school pockets the money.

Why do you think there are so many more DO schools starting up?!?!?!?

It is INFURIATING and I am PISSED about it. The DO schools are taking advantage of pre-meds willingness to go ANYWHERE for ANY AMOUNT of tuition, just to reach their dreams. The schools will gladly accept almost anyone just to fill their coffers. They dont' care that the student will be 200k in debt (and they pocket 80k of that to buy JETS for their deans and BOATS for all their administrators).

If I were to go back, I might not consider being a DO based on this. It is absolutely disgusting and I am ASHAMED. The AOA is powerless in starting or stopping new DO schools, it is the DO "LCME" committee that is in charge of new school accredidation... and I can bet you that they have a financial interest.

Another tip: The "new" school opening up in Bradenton, FL. Why did LECOM start a school there? is it because of the perceived lack of care in central florida? Oh wait, there is Univ of FL, Univ of Miami, Univ of South Florida (in Tampa, about 30 minutes away from LECOM-FL), FSU, and Nova Southeastern Univeristy COM. No, that's not it. There are plenty of medical schools.

It is because the administrators and professors at LECOM all own property on Lakewood Ranch near the school. They plan to retire, and still work part time for LECOM to supplement their income. They ALL OWN HOUSES NEAR THE SCHOOL. That is why there is a new school there.

Hope this opens your eyes.

-A fellow DO

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[Dr JPH]

Interesting take on the issue. I can see your frustration, particularly regarding the financial issue. But I do disagree with the part about the schools not caring about its students.

Where is the extra money going? Not in the pockets of the administration...its going towards opening new schools. Viscious cycle.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Interesting take on the issue. I can see your frustration, particularly regarding the financial issue. But I do disagree with the part about the schools not caring about its students.

Where is the extra money going? Not in the pockets of the administration...its going towards opening new schools. Viscious cycle.

Talk to the students at LECOM and ask them how they feel about the administration. I've also heard stories about PCOM, and how students two years ago had to increase the parking fee (or something along those lines). Apparently one administrator retired, and the school promised him a 100k pension. Two days later, the school started some fee that the students had to pay.

And the extra money is guar-o-F'ing-teed to NOT go back into opening new schools. It is the SCHOOL'S private money, not the AOA or the LCME (DO version) or what not. That's why the DOs schools are PRIVATE organizations. Why would LECOM want to open a new school in FL? Read my above posts. Not to mention, to increase their coffers. They are flying down their professors, so they don't have to hire new ones and give them benefits. Easy-peasy.

I don't hate being a DO. I dont' have animosity towards DOs. I am one, dangit. I am glad that my school gave me the chance to become a physician, and I am very thankful for that. But I hate to hear how they are using the hopes and dreams of pre-meds and their medical students to make all of them filthy rich.

 

[LovelyRita]

Hi Resident,

Sorry about your furor. The title of your post is pretty heated and biased, though. I'm sure that there isn't one student at any DO school that takes a look around them and wonders (or observes) where the money is going.

Looks like the folks @LECOM have flamed you like they have flamed many others.

Ohio University COM is or is like (please correct me if I'm wrong) a state run school (OH resident = lower tuition than non resident).

And here at my UHS, I am watching a major amount of development in our Northeast corner of KC. I guess this school was about to close about a decade ago, but now it is on the up and up. I've been here two years and I have watched city blocks getting leveled for future UHS development. The only blatant absence is that of a DO hospital. And we all know the feelings that go along with that.

My bottom line is that I don't disagree with you one bit, Res.Evil., good for you for speaking up. I know that there are a lot of ppl who have the same sentiments.

M.

 

[ResidentEvil]

I am glad that you do not disagree with me, but its ok if you do.

I have NOTHING wrong with paying 30k a year for tuition. I owe almost 200k. That's fine. MD students do that as well.

But the MD institutions aren't "raping" their medical students. They can justify their costs. University affiliated hospitals are expensive! Having medical students is expensive! Their costs are justified.

DO schools' costs are not justified.

UHS CAN build more stuff around them, unlike Drexel or MCP Hanneman, because they are able to save more $ from tuition... they don't have the expenses that hte MD schools have.

Why don't the DO schools reduce their tuition, to MEET their expenditures, instead of lining the pockets of the private school owners.

You are correct. OU-COM is more of a state school. And I'm sure the same can be said for MSUCOM and OSUCOM. However, the same cannot be said for the other 15 schools. WHY OH WHY do you think there have been so many new DO schools in the past few years, ESPECIALLY those affiliated with other schools!?!?!

 

[DireWolf]

I agree 100% with ResidentEvil. I will probably follow VentdependenT's advice: get your degree and run. And don't ever look back.

In OSU-COM's defense (probably a similar situation with MSU and OU), they really do run their institution on the MD model. Because it is a state school, we get money from the state. This helps us set up affiliations with other hospitals and practicing physicians and helps us open up clinics to help the underserved. This gives students a chance to give back to the community and learn a ton from a wide array of pathology. We also spend money on maintaining our teaching hospital. We don't own TRMC, but we are basically a consortium like WashU/Barnes-Jewish in STL. We pay our 3rd-4th year attendings and also pay attendings to come in and teach some 1st-2nd year classes. Almost nothing is done on a volunteer basis (although this does occur).

Although there are negatives about it, OSU-COM's attempt to mimic the MD model had a lot to do with my decision to attend.

 

[oceandocDO]

ResidentEvil,

Much of what you say has no basis. Is it true that many of the attendings teaching D.O. students are volunteers? Yes. But, know most receive CME credit for teaching, as well as many are able to make money off the students by not having to hire extra nurses, PAs, etc. My family practice preceptor ran a very busy practice thanks to his students. He was able to see 60-70 patients a day thanks to the D.O. students doing most of the exam, writing the note, doing paperwork, filling out the scripts, etc. He would come in for about 4-5 minutes at the end, talk to the patient, confirm the findings, and off to the next patient. He readily admits that his patient census would be cut by 30-40% without students. Often the same goes for surgeons who have students retract or act as first assist in a surgery, hence not having to pay a PA. Those who teach lecture in the first two years are most often paid, maybe not much, but more importantly they are able to list a professorship on their CV, which is worth more than the few hundred bucks they get for the lecture. The ones who teach on rounds are often under contract from the hospital to pay to teach, as the hospital is most often a teaching institution with residents, fellows, etc hence they are paid, but not by the school per se. The feds pay for the GME, and the school provides residents to take those residency positions. Hence, the hospital in essence "invests" in teaching the students in hopes of attracting some of those students to their residency programs, which they will then get paid for. Very symbiotic relationship.

Also, do the administrators make good money? Absolutely. Do administrators in MD institutions make good money? Absolutely. Actually, they often make more because of the large endowments these institutions have. The Chairman of Medicine at NYU is said to make close to 1 million. I'm not sure how to lure good physicians out of practice to go into academics without paying them at least what they were making in practice.

I agree that the opening of branch campuses is a great way to increase revenue. In some ways D.O. schools have no other choice. In many MD schools, the school survives on research grants, endowments, and hospital revenues. Tuition dollars are very unimportant because of other revenues. The majority of D.O. schools are relatively young, hence they have no alumni endowments, they historically have done very little research, very few have large clinical centers that make money, and very few are state run. With these factors, tuition dollars are very important to schools, and ways to increase tuition dollars, by opening branch campuses for example, need to be employed in order to meet their costs. Many MD schools were created in the 60s when the Higher Education Act was created and the feds gave out money hand over fist. This enabled these schools to create their research facilities and the large teaching centers without a dime of their own. The scene has very much changed now, and the feds are taking money out of education, hence again, tuition dollars are more important.

I urge you to do a little more homework before making blanket statements on the world of osteopathic education. I ask you: Did you get a residency position in the field you wanted? Do you feel you are well trained? If so, I would maybe thank the people who educated you for the same price as our MD counterparts rather than pollute the waters with rumors which have little to no foundation in reality.

 

[ResidentEvil]

ResidentEvil,

Much of what you say has no basis. Is it true that many of the attendings teaching D.O. students are volunteers? Yes. But, know most receive CME credit for teaching, as well as many are able to make money off the students by not having to hire extra nurses, PAs, etc. My family practice preceptor ran a very busy practice thanks to his students. He was able to see 60-70 patients a day thanks to the D.O. students doing most of the exam, writing the note, doing paperwork, filling out the scripts, etc. He would come in for about 4-5 minutes at the end, talk to the patient, confirm the findings, and off to the next patient. He readily admits that his patient census would be cut by 30-40% without students. Often the same goes for surgeons who have students retract or act as first assist in a surgery, hence not having to pay a PA. Those who teach lecture in the first two years are most often paid, maybe not much, but more importantly they are able to list a professorship on their CV, which is worth more than the few hundred bucks they get for the lecture. The ones who teach on rounds are often under contract from the hospital to pay to teach, as the hospital is most often a teaching institution with residents, fellows, etc.

Also, do the administrators make good money? Absolutely. Do administrators in MD institutions make good money? Absolultely. Actually, they often make more because of the large endowments these institutions have. The Chairman of Medicine at NYU is said to make close to 1 million. I'm not sure how to lure good physicians out of practice to go into academics without paying them at least what they were making in practice.

I agree that the opening of branch campuses is a great way to increase revenue. In some ways D.O. schools have no other choice. In many MD schools, the school survives on research grants, endowments, and hospital revenues. Tuition dollars are very unimportant because of other revenues. The majority of D.O. schools are relatively young, hence they have no alumni endowments, they historically have done very little research, very few have large clinical centers that make money, and very few are state run. With these factors, tuition dollars are very important to schools, and ways to increase tuition dollars, by opening branch campuses for example, need to be employed in order to meet their costs. Many MD schools were created in the 60s when the Higher Education Act was created and the feds gave out money hand over fist. This enabled these schools to create their research facilities and the large teaching centers without a dime of their own. The scene has very much changed now, and the feds are taking money out of education, hence again, tuition dollars are more important.

I urge you to do a little more homework before making blanket statements on the world of osteopathic education. I ask you: Did you get a residency position in the field you wanted? Do you feel you are well trained? If so, I would maybe thank the people who educated you for the same price as our MD counterparts rather than pollute the waters with rumors which have little to no foundation in reality.

I have no beef with attendings using medical students for their own needs. That is a separate issue altogether.

Let it be known that I am close friends with an associate Dean of a large DO school, and he has told me these things. Also, once you are out of school, and are in residency, you'll talk to professors, you'll read the schools' budget, you'll read the hospital's budget, you'll hear things. You'll investigate. You'll ask your colleagues. You'll talk to the assistant dean, you'll talk to the associate dean. You'll have a few drinks with an associate dean and, well, as the Romans said "there is truth in wine."

You are correct. MD institutions often rely on grants and NIH funding... but that is usually the HOSPITAL and not the university itself. I am talking about the DO schools. Have you ever seen a school's budget? I have. I know the balances. Its astounding. And sickening.

As a medical student, you are blind to what is going on around you. You just want to pass the next test, the next rotation, and the next board. When you step out of those shoes, look back. Talk to the alumni. You'll see a whole different side...

Listen, oceandocDO, I stated above that I was thankful for the school to help me become what I am so far.

But I feel its okay to have a healthy discussion about it. Pre-meds and medical students should be aware of the possible situation going on around them.

 

[ResidentEvil]

I agree 100% with ResidentEvil. I will probably follow VentdependenT's advice: get your degree and run. And don't ever look back.

In OSU-COM's defense (probably a similar situation with MSU and OU), they really do run their institution on the MD model. Because it is a state school, we get money from the state. This helps us set up affiliations with other hospitals and practicing physicians and helps us open up clinics to help the underserved. This gives students a chance to give back to the community and learn a ton from a wide array of pathology. We also spend money on maintaining our teaching hospital. We don't own TRMC, but we are basically a consortium like WashU/Barnes-Jewish in STL. We pay our 3rd-4th year attendings and also pay attendings to come in and teach some 1st-2nd year classes. Almost nothing is done on a volunteer basis (although this does occur).

Although there are negatives about it, OSU-COM's attempt to mimic the MD model had a lot to do with my decision to attend.

You are probably correct. I believe I did give an exemption to OSU, OU, and MSUCOM. They are more state supported than the rest (and therefore their budget is more scrutinized, and they are not allowed to get away with what the private schools do).

 

[DireWolf]

ResidentEvil,

Much of what you say has no basis. Is it true that many of the attendings teaching D.O. students are volunteers? Yes. But, know most receive CME credit for teaching, as well as many are able to make money off the students by not having to hire extra nurses, PAs, etc. My family practice preceptor ran a very busy practice thanks to his students. He was able to see 60-70 patients a day thanks to the D.O. students doing most of the exam, writing the note, doing paperwork, filling out the scripts, etc. He would come in for about 4-5 minutes at the end, talk to the patient, confirm the findings, and off to the next patient. He readily admits that his patient census would be cut by 30-40% without students. Often the same goes for surgeons who have students retract or act as first assist in a surgery, hence not having to pay a PA. Those who teach lecture in the first two years are most often paid, maybe not much, but more importantly they are able to list a professorship on their CV, which is worth more than the few hundred bucks they get for the lecture. The ones who teach on rounds are often under contract from the hospital to pay to teach, as the hospital is most often a teaching institution with residents, fellows, etc.

Also, do the administrators make good money? Absolutely. Do administrators in MD institutions make good money? Absolultely. Actually, they often make more because of the large endowments these institutions have. The Chairman of Medicine at NYU is said to make close to 1 million. I'm not sure how to lure good physicians out of practice to go into academics without paying them at least what they were making in practice.

I agree that the opening of branch campuses is a great way to increase revenue. In some ways D.O. schools have no other choice. In many MD schools, the school survives on research grants, endowments, and hospital revenues. Tuition dollars are very unimportant because of other revenues. The majority of D.O. schools are relatively young, hence they have no alumni endowments, they historically have done very little research, very few have large clinical centers that make money, and very few are state run. With these factors, tuition dollars are very important to schools, and ways to increase tuition dollars, by opening branch campuses for example, need to be employed in order to meet their costs. Many MD schools were created in the 60s when the Higher Education Act was created and the feds gave out money hand over fist. This enabled these schools to create their research facilities and the large teaching centers without a dime of their own. The scene has very much changed now, and the feds are taking money out of education, hence again, tuition dollars are more important.

I urge you to do a little more homework before making blanket statements on the world of osteopathic education. I ask you: Did you get a residency position in the field you wanted? Do you feel you are well trained? If so, I would maybe thank the people who educated you for the same price as our MD counterparts rather than pollute the waters with rumors which have little to no foundation in reality.

Most of my friends who have graduated from D.O. schools and pursued MD residencies say they have done this "in spite of their school" not "because of their school". So I wouldn't be so quick to "thank them". My school is no exception. If I am fortunate enough to land an allopathic residency in the specialty of my choice, I will have done it despite my school. With such a small number of electives, and with so many required primary care rotations, my school does everything in its power to force us into primary care.

D.O. schools should spend their "revenue" on improving 3rd and 4th year rotations instead of shipping their students all over the country to community hospitals. They should also open up more teaching hospitals and residency spots.

The injustice here is that they continue to open up more schools, water down the quality of the students, and do nothing to improve the clinical education or residency education of their graduates.

 

[VentdependenT]

Score high, rotate well, be a conscientious medical student, land good letters, impress those you work with, match, and get the hell out.

You're still a doctor, so no sense in crying over spilt milk. You could have kept trying allo, or gone carrib, but you didn't. Your frustration is in vain. Never the less there is truth to what you have written and students should be aware of this. Don't forget that there are still osteopathic teaching hospitals. I just chose to rotate at only 1 of them.

I do not disagree with any of what you have said. But I'm more than happy with my education and the opportunities it has provided me. Granted it takes a hell of a lot of self motivation to get what you want. In addition there is little to no guidance provided by the school itself. If you care about your future then it should work out. Just don't plan on an easy road to allo Neurosurg, Urology, Ortho, Optho, or Derm....you have to be mind blowing to land these postions. Although my school has placed allo Ortho, Uro, and Derm, these folks are very smart, on top of their game, and extremely motivated. I'm chump change in comparrison.

Chicago is a fantastic city, my home, and I couldn't have asked for anything more out of my match.

Vent

 

[Adapt]

Well, at COMP, the students rotate at Arrowhead, riverside regional, and they can rotate at the UCLA, UCI, and Loma Linda medical centers if they want to. The other Cali MD students rotate at the same hospitals. If the DO students are doing the same rotations as the MD students, then your argument about the problem with DO rotations may be false at least in the case.

 

[VentdependenT]

Well, why don't we fork out cash to allo hospitals so we can do core's there? We don't, and its students are offered no explination. Its things like this which annoy me about my school, and their resistance to change despite coherent logical arguments....instead they open up a podiatry school to make more cash.

Like I stated before, I'm happy with my education, but lets face it...I worked hard at setting up my own rotations and seeking out information about how to match without any help from the school. All the strong DO's that I know do this.

Being a DO is not the same thing as being a family physician. Our schools can focus on primary care...but don't have us do 3 family med rotations. That's a little bit much. It takes initiative to seek out extra electives, but it can be done. The AOA should be fostering the ability of its top quality grads to seek out highly competitive fields, but instead it still manages to focus on twisting its graduates into FP's who are "different" because they have a whole body approach to medicne.....sure.

I took the same classes as my MD buddies, rotated at the same hospitals, and am entering a specialized field accredited by the ACGME...now how different from an MD is that? See why the AOA needs to shift its focus now?

Lets fork out some cash to allo hospitals and give back to these places which have allowed us osteopaths to rotate and learn there.

Vent

 

[oceandocDO]

Well said Shinken.

Direwolf...
For those of you who bash your own profession, you're poisoning the very waters which you drink... an approach I never quite understood. Why belittle the very education you worked very hard for? Does it make you feel better? Is it productive? I'm sure your patients will appreciate the confidence you have in your own training. If you want respect, do you think your colleagues will ever give you the respect you deserve with the obvious self-confidence issues you have? I mean, I'm sure you think you'll be a great physician someday, in spite of the lack of support from your osteopathic school in not providing the educational experience you read about in the MD brochures, but when you bash the foundations of the system within you trained, you're in essence adding fuel to the fire of the people who say osteopathic medicine is not equal.

I feel I have received an excellent training. Did I have alot of primary care influence? Probably, but not terribly more than my MD counterparts. Besides, isnt the basis of this profession to make generalists first and specialists second. Do you think that extra time spent in primary care will severely hurt you in your quest to specialize? Is it not a good idea for doctors to have initial training designed with a broad brush, or do you think you should be a cardiologist by the time you graduate medical school?

Unfortunately, the enemy may indeed be us, unfortunately perpetuated by attitudes like yours. IMO, most of this approach stems from individuals who never quite made it to the front of the class, would do what it takes to get by, and then proceed to blame their poor scores or lack of academic priorities on their school. Medical school is what you make of it, no matter where the degree on your wall says you trained.

As Benjamin Franklin said "He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."

 

[governator]

is there a way to find out where our tuition goes to? is the school obligated to share the info or can they keep it from students?
here at COMP we pay 33 G's for 10 rotations (for 4th yr), from what i know, private rotations are volunteer, affiliated hospital gets roughly 150-200 bucks/student (word of mouth, i'm too scared to ask the school the exact dollar number) and student malpractice insurance = 10 G/yr(??? maybe?)
well that still leave more than 20 thousand dollars for paper work.
Until proven otherwise, I too share the view that private DO school are the most profitable non-profit organizations out there.

 

[DireWolf]

Well said Shinken.

Direwolf...
For those of you who bash your own profession, you're poisoning the very waters which you drink... an approach I never quite understood. Why belittle the very education you worked very hard for? Does it make you feel better? Is it productive? I'm sure your patients will appreciate the confidence you have in your own training. If you want respect, do you think your colleagues will ever give you the respect you deserve with the obvious self-confidence issues you have? I mean, I'm sure you think you'll be a great physician someday, in spite of the lack of support from your osteopathic school in not providing the educational experience you read about in the MD brochures, but when you bash the foundations of the system within you trained, you're in essence adding fuel to the fire of the people who say osteopathic medicine is not equal.

I feel I have received an excellent training. Did I have alot of primary care influence? Probably, but not terribly more than my MD counterparts. Besides, isnt the basis of this profession to make generalists first and specialists second. Do you think that extra time spent in primary care will severely hurt you in your quest to specialize? Is it not a good idea for doctors to have initial training designed with a broad brush, or do you think you should be a cardiologist by the time you graduate medical school?

Unfortunately, the enemy may indeed be us, unfortunately perpetuated by attitudes like yours. IMO, most of this approach stems from individuals who never quite made it to the front of the class, would do what it takes to get by, and then proceed to blame their poor scores or lack of academic priorities on their school. Medical school is what you make of it, no matter where the degree on your wall says you trained.

Although my was post was justifiably and purposefully harsh, I did manage to praise my school as well. I'm not saying EVERYTHING about osteopathic education is horrible. I would put my 1st two years of education up against any school in the country, DO or MD.

But like Vent said, you have to take the initiative a hell of a lot more at a D.O. school if you want to specialize and get into a solid training program. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the odds are stacked against you every step of the way. Many of these schools do everythig in their power to discourage specialization instead of helping their students achieve their professional goals.

Is having a solid background in primary care beneficial? Yes, it probably is. But requiring 11 rotations in primary care fields is a little overboard.

By not questioning our institution and striving to create changes, we are doing it more of a disservice than a service. It is people like you who stand idly by keeping their mouth shut that are doing more harm than good. This institution of osteopathic medicine is heading in the wrong direction, fast. Big changes need to be made, and we're the ones who need to speak up in order to get something done.

I chose DO over MD becuase I like my school and I believed osteopathic was heading in the right direction.

 

[oceandocDO]

is there a way to find out where our tuition goes to? is the school obligated to share the info or can they keep it from students?
here at COMP we pay 33 G's for 10 rotations (for 4th yr), from what i know, private rotations are volunteer, affiliated hospital gets roughly 150-200 bucks/student (word of mouth, i'm too scared to ask the school the exact dollar number) and student malpractice insurance = 10 G/yr(??? maybe?)
well that still leave more than 20 thousand dollars for paper work.
Until proven otherwise, I too share the view that private DO school are the most profitable non-profit organizations out there.

People have to understand that your tuition dollars are not necessarily paying for the items which you receive during the particular year in which you're currently enrolled. In your undergrad institution, if you took 15 or 22 credits, the price was the same. Some semesters you took more credits, others you took less. The price was still the same, usually. Students in smaller programs or majors (nuclear engineering, materials science, geology, etc) still paid the same rate, thus the tuition dollars of those few people alone were not funding their entire educational program, these programs were supplemented from elsewhere in the college. Funding for education cannot be broken down like that or else you would never be able to have institutions teaching at that level. The tuition you pay in third and fourth year goes to pay faculty that are teaching the first and second year students. It goes to pay for the facilities that they use. It goes to the insurance that the school pays on its properties and your medical malpractice. It goes to paying administration who work to keep the school in line with accredidation standards. It goes to pay admissions officers to recruite future doctors. It goes to support OPTIs. It supports financial aid administrators, who find your loans for you. It pays for student services. It pays for expansion of the institution. It pays for your graduation. Get the point?

Do administrators make good money? Definitely, but so do physicians, so you must pay these people well in order for them to leave their practice to come to the academic world. Fair market value. Is education a business? Hell yes. Is medicine a business? Hell yes. Is the world a business? Hell yes. Will you volunteer someday to work full time for nothing? Probably not.

 

[oceandocDO]

Although my was post was justifiably and purposefully harsh, I did manage to praise my school as well. I'm not saying EVERYTHING about osteopathic education is horrible. I would put my 1st two years of education up against any school in the country, DO or MD.

But like Vent said, you have to take the initiative a hell of a lot more at a D.O. school if you want to specialize and get into a solid training program. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the odds are stacked against you every step of the way. Many of these schools do everythig in their power to discourage specializationi instead of helping their studentss achieve their professional goals.

Is having a solid background in primry care beneficial? Yes, it probably is. But requiring 11 rotations in primary care fields is a little overboard.

By not questioning our institution and striving to create changes, we are doing it more of a disservice than a service. It is people like you who stand idly by keeping their mouth shut that are doing more harm than good. This institution of osteopathic medicine is heading in the wrong direction, fast. Big changes need to be made, and we're the ones who need to speak up in order to get something done.

I chose DO over MD because I like my school and I believed osteopathic was heading in the right direction. I was terribly wrong and now am fighting an uphill battle. Not an impossible battle, but an uphill battle.

If you wanted to specialize, then why did you go to D.O. school? You may have liked it more to begin with, but wasnt it your own fault for not initially doing the homework on the clinical years to find out their policies? I've never heard a D.O. school advertise "come here, where we strive to create specialists". On your interview you probably even lied and said "I love primary care and I love how this school aims to focus the light back to primary care, where medicine most needs it right now". Now you're angry because the school didnt offer enough electives in hand surgery or pediatric gastroenterology. Please.

If you're upset with your school, why dont you name it rather than paint the rest of your colleagues in the other 19 schools to have similar problems as yours?

""""It is people like you who stand idly by keeping their mouth shut that are doing more harm than good. This institution of osteopathic medicine is heading in the wrong direction, fast. Big changes need to be made, and we're the ones who need to speak up in order to get something done.""" .

I'll be happy to forward you my resume, and you'll see my voice is one of the loudest at many levels. I ask you, what have you done lately for this profession, besides complain about all the inadequacies?

 

[DireWolf]

If you wanted to specialize, then why did you go to D.O. school? You may have liked it more to begin with, but wasnt it your own fault for not initially doing the homework on the clinical years to find out their policies? I've never heard a D.O. school advertise "come here, where we strive to create specialists". On your interview you probably even lied and said "I love primary care and I love how this school aims to focus the light back to primary care, where medicine most needs it right now". Now you're angry because the school didnt offer enough electives in hand surgery or pediatric gastroenterology. Please.

If you're upset with your school, why dont you name it rather than paint the rest of your colleagues in the other 19 schools to have similar problems as yours?

I'll be happy to forward you my resume, and you'll see my voice is one of the loudest at many levels. I ask you, what have you done lately for this
profession, besides complain about all the inadequacies?

I happen to have friends currently attending or that have graduated from many of the other D.O. schools. So when I speak about osteopathic education, I speak about all 20 schools, not just mine.

I have admitted that I knew EXACTLY what I was getting myself into when I accepted at OSU. That doesn't mean I have to like everything about it.

After I finish training, I plan on having a voice in the AOA. That is if I haven't grown completely frustrated by the AOA by then and decided to abandon it all-together.

 

[ResidentEvil]

People have to understand that your tuition dollars are not necessarily paying for the items which you receive during the particular year in which you're currently enrolled. In your undergrad institution, if you took 15 or 22 credits, the price was the same. Some semesters you took more credits, others you took less. The price was still the same, usually. Students in smaller programs or majors (nuclear engineering, materials science, geology, etc) still paid the same rate, thus the tuition dollars of those few people alone were not funding their entire educational program, these programs were supplemented from elsewhere in the college. Funding for education cannot be broken down like that or else you would never be able to have institutions teaching at that level. The tuition you pay in third and fourth year goes to pay faculty that are teaching the first and second year students. It goes to pay for the facilities that they use. It goes to the insurance that the school pays on its properties and your medical malpractice. It goes to paying administration who work to keep the school in line with accredidation standards. It goes to pay admissions officers to recruite future doctors. It goes to support OPTIs. It supports financial aid administrators, who find your loans for you. It pays for student services. It pays for expansion of the institution. It pays for your graduation. Get the point?

Nice theory, but unfortunately doesn't make sense. If the DO schools had to pay the attendings who teach 3rd and 4th year medical students, our tuition would be higher. But they don't.

Lecturers are my school were paid $200 an hour for each lecture they gave. $200 x 8 = 1600 a day. 4 days a week = 5600.

Remember that some schools have up to 200 students a year. That's a lot of money.

And why don't you ask your professors your first year how much they make. I'll bet they don't top 100k. And why do DO schools often have associated other allied health schools? Because they can use the same professors to teach those students. See if your school has an associated PA/PT/OT school. And let's not even talk about baccalaureate programs! Certificates that mean absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!! And you're going to pay 40k! How is that for gouging medical students?

Atleast Georgetown University gives you an actual MASTER'S Of PHYSIOLOGY degree, not some crappy piece of paper that will get you absolutely nowhere.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Well, at COMP, the students rotate at Arrowhead, riverside regional, and they can rotate at the UCLA, UCI, and Loma Linda medical centers if they want to. The other Cali MD students rotate at the same hospitals. If the DO students are doing the same rotations as the MD students, then your argument about the problem with DO rotations may be false at least in the case.

Oftentimes, a DO student will rotate at an MD institution. The MD institutions will not charge the DO students. One or two DO students here and there, hospitals don't care. All they'll care about for that is to make sure you have the malpractice covered. And do you think medical studnet malpractice is expensive?! It is not. It is NOT! It is so cheap! How much do you think it is... 5k a year?

Preposterous. Think several hundred a year per student. We are not given clinical responsibilities. We often work under residents and attendings. On a chart, we are actually invisible to the courts. The insurance is just to protect the medical school in name only.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Well, why don't we fork out cash to allo hospitals so we can do core's there? We don't, and its students are offered no explination. Its things like this which annoy me about my school, and their resistance to change despite coherent logical arguments....instead they open up a podiatry school to make more cash.

Like I stated before, I'm happy with my education, but lets face it...I worked hard at setting up my own rotations and seeking out information about how to match without any help from the school. All the strong DO's that I know do this.

Being a DO is not the same thing as being a family physician. Our schools can focus on primary care...but don't have us do 3 family med rotations. That's a little bit much. It takes initiative to seek out extra electives, but it can be done. The AOA should be fostering the ability of its top quality grads to seek out highly competitive fields, but instead it still manages to focus on twisting its graduates into FP's who are "different" because they have a whole body approach to medicne.....sure.

I took the same classes as my MD buddies, rotated at the same hospitals, and am entering a specialized field accredited by the ACGME...now how different from an MD is that? See why the AOA needs to shift its focus now?

Lets fork out some cash to allo hospitals and give back to these places which have allowed us osteopaths to rotate there and lean there.

Vent

You speak strongly and clearly, and likely the most level-headed person out there (including myself). You are right. It is tough being a DO but if you want it, you'll get it. I'm not talking about how difficult it is, or how justified we should be in our knowledge, or anything of that sort.

I want to open the eyes of pre-meds and current medical students into the apparent "rape" from our tuition. Why should I allow a "family" who runs a medical school to get rich off my hopes and dreams? To allow them to start up a second school in sunny Florida so they can retire and continue to rape us financially, all the while taking away our individual freedoms and scaring us that they'll put in our Dean's Letter we missed one class or didn't wear light blue scrubs to class?

Where do these people think they have the right to do this to us?

Because they've gotten away with it.

And they'll continue to get away with it.

Hey, I paid my almost 200k. So should you. But should we do it without a voice?

Or should we atleast find out where all our money is going to?

 

[Adapt]

Resident Evil, Direwolf, and Vent, you have convinced me. Perhaps DO school is not right for me especially if they take our money like that for the last two years. I am saddened that the profession has become like this. I will rethink my decision of attending a DO school.

It is one thing when non-DO students say negative things about DOs, but it is even more worse and more effective when DO students do so.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Resident Evil and Co, you have convinced me. Perhaps DO school is not right for me especially if they take our money like that for the last two years. I am saddened that the profession has become like this. I will rethink my decision of attending a DO school.

Part of me is saddened. Saddened that you will not be a DO counterpart of mine. Honestly.

Part of me is happy, knowing they won't be getting your tuition money.

Most of me is frustrated, because I know there is another desperate pre-med who will be more than willing to pay their 40k a year.

OceandocDO, you seem like a decent person, do you think there is anything the medical student community can do about this issue (if you believe its true or not)?

 

[DireWolf]

Resident Evil, Direwolf, and Vent, you have convinced me. Perhaps DO school is not right for me especially if they take our money like that for the last two years. I am saddened that the profession has become like this. I will rethink my decision of attending a DO school.

While I am giving honest opinions (as are RE and Vent), I wouldn't let three people make or break my decision. I would consult a lot of sources and think about what you want to get out of your medical education.

I did a ton of research on medical schools before I made my decision. My top choices were ranked in the following order:

1. MD
2. MD
3. DO
4. DO
5. MD
6. MD

I ended up getting waitlisted at my top two choices. I did get accepted to choices 3 through 6, and decided to attend my #3.

My rankings were based solely on the merits of each individual school, not MD vs. DO. I think this is the best way to look it at.

However, looking back, I would have put more significance on the direction that osteopathic medicine is heading, which in my opinoin is not the right direction.

 

[ResidentEvil]

While I am giving honest opinions (as are RE and Vent), I wouldn't let three people make or break my decision. I would consult a lot of sources and think about what you want to get out of your medical education.

My rankings were based solely on the merits of each individual school, not MD vs. DO. I think this is the best way to look it at.

However, looking back, I would have put more significance on the direction that osteopathic medicine is heading, which in my opinoin is not the right direction.

Strong advice. Heed it well.

Unfortunately, most pre-DOs do not understand the AOA and the leadership of the AOA, nor do they understand the pressure the DO schools put on primary care (be that good or bad).

I applied to all DO schools. My pre-med advisor told me I didn't have a shot at an MD institution. So I never bothered applying. I just wanted to be a physician. Had I been given a choice... who knows what I would have picked.

 

[Adapt]

While I am giving honest opinions (as are RE and Vent), I wouldn't let three people make or break my decision. I would consult a lot of sources and think about what you want to get out of your medical education.

I did a ton of research on medical schools before I made my decision. My top choices were ranked in the following order:
1. MD
2. MD
3. DO
4. DO
5. MD
6. MD

I ended up getting waitlisted at my top two choices. I did get accepted to choices 3 through 6, and decided to attend my #3.

My rankings were based solely on the merits of each individual school, not MD vs. DO. I think this is the best way to look it at.

However, looking back, I would have put more significance on the direction that osteopathic medicine is heading, which in my opinoin is not the right direction.

I am basically in the same situation you were. My list is:

1. MD
2. DO
3. MD
4. MD
and the rest MDs. Perhaps I can learn from your mistake and put more significance on the direction you talked about. I will look into other sources and ask different people for their opinions.

 

[ResidentEvil]

I am basically in the same situation you were. My list is:

1. MD
2. DO
3. MD
4. MD
and the rest MDs. Perhaps I can learn from your mistake and put more significance on the direction you talked about. I will look into other sources and ask different people for their opinions.

Do a search for "COMP" and "TCOM." Then do a search for "Drexel" and "Temple." See what people are saying.

 

[LukeWhite]

I'm not entirely sure I see the problem. There are definitely shady schools (LECOM comes to mind, along with COMP's recent compensation brouhaha) and even the more reputable ones have some issues (my beloved AZCOM is opening a Podiatry school for some unfathomable reason and pays its CEO half a million dollars).

But why not let market forces sort it out? If a school's misrepresenting itself, that's one thing. Otherwise, why not accept that schools without state funding will be in it for the money?

I sympathize with the thread's point in that I'm also a little worried about all these schools opening up and thus diminishing the value of the degree. But everyone in any business worries about the same thing--trying to stop it is just simple collusion or racketeering. We've fortunately got a pretty good mechanism in place for ensuring that only competent docs make it--the boards don't cut anyone any breaks, and residency directors can pick out the good from the bad pretty well.

It seems to me that given the tremendous and growing shortage of primary care docs, market-oriented medical education is a fantastic idea. Sure, it may end up making it harder for people to specialize, since there's more competition and more dilution, but that will directly lead to an increase in the number of primary care docs. Maybe bad for our individual wallets, but good for the overall health of society.

There's a reason we're in position to make six figures right out of the gate--it's that American medicine has a strong capitalist engine behind it, which is why it's great. What's good for the goose is good for the gander--I'm interested to see how capitalist forces translate on the lower rungs of the med ladder. If it fails, we'll know soon enough. If it succeeds, society's better for it, and since most of us at least SAY that's why we're going into medicine, why not give it a shot?

 

[Heeed!]

OceandocDO---Did I have alot of primary care influence? Probably, but not terribly more than my MD counterparts.

You should come down to NSUCOM. We get 2 electives that don't have to be primary care. That's right, I said we only get 2 that are not primary care. In all of your 3rd and 4th year, you get 2. Don't you think that might be an excessive push for FP? It's all about the benjamins, too. Our school gets state $$ for docs that go FP. Hopefully, I will get to specialize in spite of NSU.

 

[sia_simba]

WOW..!! This is some serious discussion. ResidentEvil is good by informing us of the situation w/ medical schools esp DO schools. But unless we're in the decision making process, I don't really think most of us have much to do. Sure we can speak about it, but w/o actively seeking to change it from the top down, not much can be done.

It is sad, but I don't think many people have a choice. But I see it as this:

Med school is a business, the people who owns it will find ways to increase their income. I am paying for my degree, and if I have to pay a little extra for it, so be it. I am not going to let MONEY get into desire to become a physician. Physicians don't make as much money as they are suppose to anyways, so anyone who comes into this field thinking that is wrong.

But perhaps people think differently, but I personally have no problem w/ DO schools ripping me off. =) If they rip me off and will allow me to practice medicine.. i'll take it.

To make it more simple, we can just correlate that to the war that we are having. Taxes increase in order to fund the war which I am sure a good number of americans protest against. But honestly, what is this war for ? For the greed of one man. Yet a good number of people from this nation still stand by it. What I am trying to say is that people robbing from others happens all the time. Medicine is NOT ALL PURE at heart. It just so happen that as medical students, its our turn to get rob. Just live through it.

This is just a side note and NOT intended towards anyone. But people who can only make it to DO schools because they can't get into another schools shouldn't complain about it. Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Adapt]

I had a temporary glitch in my system. I sat on it for about half an hour, and I believe I'm on the right course. I will still be happy to attend a DO school. GO DOs!!!

 

[DireWolf]

I had a temporary glitch in my system. I sat on it for about half an hour, and I believe I'm on the right course. I will still be happy to attend a DO school. GO DOs!!!

Did you get accepted to your number one choice?

 

[Adapt]

Did you get accepted to your number one choice?

Well my number one choice right now is Loma Linda and I still haven't heard a decision even though I interviewed in Jan. I'm going to COMP if I don't get in because it's the only school in the area that accepted me. If I remember correctly, my situation is like yours because you chose DO due to location.

 

[DireWolf]

Well my number one choice right now is Loma Linda and I still haven't heard a decision even though I interviewed in Jan. I'm going to COMP if I don't get in because it's the only school in the area that accepted me. If I remember correctly, my situation is like yours because you chose DO due to location.

I would go with your number one choice regardless of DO or MD. Unfortunately I didn't get into my #1 or #2. But I'm still happy with #3.

Many factors went into my personal rankings, and location was definitely one of them. However, it wasn't the deciding factor as evidenced by the fact that OSU is in Tulsa. Let's just say that Tulsa isn't the most happening place, but it's good enough for med school and great if you have a family.

 

[Su4n2]

well, i think our school should be accountable to us on how it spends our money. for example, take my school, NYCOM

300 students times 4- 1200* 30,000= 36 million
i would like to know where this money goes. aside from rent to NYIT, profs, hospitals, etc. this is a tremendous ammount of money. some at the school that i have spoken to have said that this is "the big secret' at NYCOM- where is the money? one theory is that our tuition goes tocover some of the allied health programs. i don't know. but i do think that as students we have the right to know.

 

[ResidentEvil]

sia and LukeWhite,

You make good points. And your discussion is strong and honest.

I agree with you. Medical school is a business. Businesses exist to make money for the owners. I do not have a problem with this in the least.

I do have a problem with the WAY the schools try to make money for the owners.

I was recently PM'd by an anonymous student at LECOM. Here are this person's thoughts:

"Finally someone who thinks just like I do. I am only a MS-II at LECOM, but am sick and tired of the daily "rapings." We get charged a $75 microscope fee and I have yet to see a microscope. How about $200 graduation fee every year (that's $200x4). With 225 kids that is $180,000 for a graduation. It better be some party! The administration looks at me like I am nuts because I want to do gas. I was given a hard time because I want to take the USMLE. I don't understand the mind set of these people."

Posting a profit is one thing. Taking money from medical students who get a lump paycheck from the gov't is the proverbial "candy from a baby."

Medical students, and pre-meds, are desperate people. They just want one goal. To become a physician. At whatever it takes. How many of us, and be honest, said while you were studying for the MCAT or preparing to interview for med school, thought to yourself "I will do ANYTHING to get into medical school... just let me in! I'll show you I can do it! I'll study 8 hours a day even! Just accept me and I'll work so hard for it!" This desperate thought that I definately had blinds you from those that do not have such beneficient thoughts. Those that only see the bottom line and the sheer magnitude of cash from tuition.

THAT IS WHAT IS SICKENING!

Fair enough... they are businesses. Businesses are faceless corporations.

But medical school administration and the Deans and the Provosts are not faceless. They are the ones that see the money. They are the ones that "see the bottom line and the sheer magnitude of cash from tuition." Their pockets are the ones being lined with our government-subsidized loan. Loan money that WE could find a better use for if they decided not to give all the administrators 100k a year pensions or give the assistant dean a Mercedes Benz S500 as a gift.

RE

 

[ResidentEvil]

well, i think our school should be accountable to us on how it spends our money. for example, take my school, NYCOM

300 students times 4- 1200* 30,000= 36 million
i would like to know where this money goes. aside from rent to NYIT, profs, hospitals, etc. this is a tremendous ammount of money. some at the school that i have spoken to have said that this is "the big secret' at NYCOM- where is the money? one theory is that our tuition goes tocover some of the allied health programs. i don't know. but i do think that as students we have the right to know.

Strong work, Su4n2. You are a champion! Inquire about it! Seriously! Please post your findings here. See what they say.

I'm am not sure as to the legal ramifications... I do not know if a private institution HAS to divulge their budget (unlike state supported schools). This is why I dont' have a beef with the OSU/OU/MSU DO programs.

And the allied health programs are extra money makers! This is why the DO schools start first, because its such a huge money maker why not extend it out to other professions. I believe NSUCOM has a PA, a PT, an OT, a Pharm.D., a DENTAL, an MPH, as well as the extremely USELESS post-baccalaureate program.

Back to the post-baccalaureate program. That is just 200-300k in the pocket of the school RIGHT THERE. The school has to do NOTHING extra to start that program up. The students in that program just sit in the same class as the medical students, do the same labs, and take teh same scantrons. There is NOTHING DIFFERENT or anythign the schools had to add. Yet the tuition is still 20-30k.

How many MD schools do you see with post-baccalaureate programs? I think the DO schools have a much higher percentage of having them. Because that is just damn ICING on the cake.

Resident Evil - your administration's worst nightmare

 

[OnMyWayThere]

In my opinion, they deserve every single penny.

It is not easy to build a school, find administration, etc. just like starting up any other company. They have given us opportunities to become PHYSICIANS. Who are we to complain?

Do you want people complaining about you driving a Mercedes and living in a nice house... protesting that you should be charging less and not driving a nice car / living in a nice house?

Complain about Microsoft, who isn't making physicians... who isn't building a road for future healthcare...

 

[DireWolf]

Complain about Microsoft, who isn't making physicians... who isn't building a road for future healthcare...

The problem with your argument is that these schools are only paving a half-ass road for us. Most of the D.O. schools do a great job of providing a solid basic science education during the first two years.

It's the 3rd-4th years and residency programs where they deprive their students. Thus, most of these schools are offering half of a medical education.

The exception would be for students who want to do a D.O. family practice residency.

But since a lot of D.O. students are turning away from family practice (due in part to large debts) and D.O. residencies in general (mostly due to lack of positions and subpar training), these schools need to rebuild their clinical rotation sites/affiliations and strengthen their residency programs.

Only then can they start to justify their $30K/year tuitions.

 

[LukeWhite]

RE,

I agree; there's some pretty shady money-making going on. While I'm all for the right of even medical schools to turn a profit, there are a good number of schools who seem to be gaming the system, particularly when it comes to federal loan money. It's somewhat akin to the corruption that goes on here and there with private docs and medicaid/medicare mills.

So perhaps some degree of regulatory oversight would be in order. Certainly a bit more transparency. Perhaps the best way to achieve this is to move from the private-ownership model that persists even in nonprofit schools to for-profit, publicly traded medical school corporations.

 

[Su4n2]

well, i haven't really spoken to people who would really know, mostly a couple of people who work for the administrators, and it was more a frustration on their part aka where does the money go. something pointed out to me by the guy who works in the anatomy lab is that the P.A program has 19 students only, which can't be enough to pay the tuition of te teachers, cadavers, administration, etc. 36 million is a lot of money, which should be funelled back into OUR education, but as a student who is not in student govt, there's really not much i can do about it.

 

[kpax18]

I agree with the fact that DO schools are charging way too much for tuition. At the same time, unless these schools start having funding and other resources , i.e. NIH research grant, govt support as in the cases of state schools (TCOM, OSUCOM...etc) or whatevers, the majority of the funding will come from students, unfortunately. Perhaps this will change in the future, hopefully, as COMP, for example is trying to get research facilities underway. But til then, most of our tuitions are going to the vet school and the new apt that will be constructed. so a lower tuition is unlikely at this moment.

 

[ResidentEvil]

I agree with the fact that DO schools are charging way too much for tuition. At the same time, unless these schools start having funding and other resources , i.e. NIH research grant, govt support as in the cases of state schools (TCOM, OSUCOM...etc) or whatevers, the majority of the funding will come from students, unfortunately. Perhaps this will change in the future, hopefully, as COMP, for example is trying to get research facilities underway. But til then, most of our tuitions are going to the vet school and the new apt that will be constructed. so a lower tuition is unlikely at this moment.

Do you think that COMP will really decrease their tuition at any point in time? I have yet to meet a school, be it community college, 4 year university, or graduate program, that has decreased their tuition, uhm, EVER.

RE

 

[kpax18]

Do you think that COMP will really decrease their tuition at any point in time? I have yet to meet a school, be it community college, 4 year university, or graduate program, that has decreased their tuition, uhm, EVER.

RE

ooops, what i meant to say was a lower increase in tuition...
given everything in the US is going up in $$, one can only dream of that happening

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

What an awesome, awesome discussion and thread!

 

[ResidentEvil]

JMC-

I feel for you man. You are exactly the person I was talking about. Someone who is dying to get into medical school. Who would do anything to get in. Who is so determined just to be a physician that they'll go for whatever it takes... be it a 200k debt... paid to a private MD institution for for the *supposed* DO cash cows (if you believe me or not).

You can ask if you are willing to go beyond your prides/values. But let me pose this thought to you:

If you do not take that acceptance, someone else for sure (or as Snoop Dogg would say, "fo shizzle my nizzle") will. So this poses the question... are you going to just go ahead and pursue your dreams? Pay the maximum loans given by the government to become the physician you want to be? Or should you wait another year of your life, putting your dreams on hold, to *hopefully* be accepted by an MD program with a balanced budget?

Its a tough decision.

Actually, its not.

Most of us who don't get into DO programs would just say "pay the damn money, who cares where it goes...." And I probably would do the same. But it is just sickening.

Supply and demand, my brothers. They've got us by the proverbial balls. Is there anything we can do about it? I'm not too sure.

 

[group_theory]

In the latest edition of The DO (Volume 45, Number 5, May 2004), there is a long article about the need and attempts of creating a research culture in osteopathic schools (written by Amy Carlton, staff editor).

Anyway, there was one passage that I think is relevant to this discussion.

"Dr. Gevitz believes that osteopathic medical colleges' business models are partly to blame. He says the administrators of most osteopathic medical colleges seek to product products (graduates) and they do not view research as a necessity in that scheme. The most dependable source of funding for the colleges is tuition, which limits research opportunities." page 34

However, to be fair (or explain the lack of research funding)

"According to Norman Gevitz, PhD, the profession has long lacked the infrastructure and incentives to do research - partly because of financial constraints. Osteopathic medical colleges had no federeal funding until the 1950s and thus lived a hand-to-mouth existence fueld mainly by tuition, explains Dr. Gevitz, the chairman of social medicine at Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Athens and the author of The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America." - page 32

The article is quite long but interesting.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Excellent input, group. I appreciate it. Thank you.

No federal funding until the 1960's? Gee, there were only like, what, 8 DO schools then? Am I the only one who is angry at DO schools for taking unnecessary tuition from us to provide luxury $$$$ to the school's owners and administrators?!?!??

 

[drvlad2004]

In the latest edition of The DO (Volume 45, Number 5, May 2004), there is a long article about the need and attempts of creating a research culture in osteopathic schools (written by Amy Carlton, staff editor).

Anyway, there was one passage that I think is relevant to this discussion.

"Dr. Gevitz believes that osteopathic medical colleges' business models are partly to blame. He says the administrators of most osteopathic medical colleges seek to product products (graduates) and they do not view research as a necessity in that scheme. The most dependable source of funding for the colleges is tuition, which limits research opportunities." page 34

However, to be fair (or explain the lack of research funding)

"According to Norman Gevitz, PhD, the profession has long lacked the infrastructure and incentives to do research - partly because of financial constraints. Osteopathic medical colleges had no federeal funding until the 1950s and thus lived a hand-to-mouth existence fueld mainly by tuition, explains Dr. Gevitz, the chairman of social medicine at Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Athens and the author of The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America." - page 32

The article is quite long but interesting.

I also see that the lack of research funding has trickled down to how the COMLEX is so poorly and anecdoctally written. Also, the lack of research by DOs probably contributes to the lack of intellectual mindset of DOs in the past. For the longest time I thought that NYCOM was the biggest money-grubbing school. However, it appears that it is the same problem at every other DO school. Using tuition as the main source of funding will eventually lead to DO schools imploding. The DO schools can push for primary care all that they want. However, with the high debt that we have incurred, why should all of us enter primary care besides for obvious reasons that the AOA states?

BTW, I have loved this discussion thus far. ResidentEvil, than you for starting this thread! Seriously, I would also like to find out, exactly, how my tuition is spent at NYCOM. I have heard that certain faculty members (i.e. chairmen) earning close to $300K/year, which is way too much. The lack of structure to how DO schools have been run and suddenly newly created may spell trouble to our profession. It is good thing that many people have not kept their mouths shut on this issue. Thank goodness that I will not be doing an osteopathic residency, which are often poorly regulated.

P.S. A PCOM in Atlanta? Hmm, since when was Atlanta an underserved area? I hear that cash machine churning as we speak. Nowadays, it seems that More DO schools = Less AOA residencies.