Attendings, can you share how you paid off/are paying your debt?

[Metamorphosis.DO]

Wondering if you could include;
-your starting indebtedness.
-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
-Salary as attending.
-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
-Any other advise.

I know this is highly Personal, but I’m hoping the anonymity will help. I just would like to see real numbers of what to expect. Anticipating about 350k debt when I’m finished. Wanting to do primary care Idaho.

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[Postictal Raiden]

Not an attending yet, but I can answer some of your questions since I have already signed a contract and know how my budget is going to look like.

-your starting indebtedness.
High 400s

-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
None so far; initially due to too low of an income for being a med student the year prior, then working half the year, then COVID
However, very soon I'll start making PAYE calculated payments 200-300 monthly

-Salary as attending.
Mid 300's. possible high 300's with bonuses

-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
Planning to continue paying the bare minimum (through REPAYE)

-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
Most jobs in my fields, at least in the geography I'm looking into, don't qualify for PSLF unless I'm willing to take a massive pay cut (work at the VA or at a fully academic institution). Many "non-profit organizations" like Kaiser and HCA have a strange hiring set up that make it impossible to qualify for PSLF.
Therefore, my approach is to do REPAYE and hope to 1) my income continue to grow to a point that the calculated payment is high enough to make a large dent into the debt 2) whatever remaining balance after the 25 years is forgiven without taxation

I realize many people don't agree with my approach. Many economically savvy people would tell you to "live like a resident" until your loans are paid. I could do that and be done in less than 4 years, but I'm not interested. I'd rather invest my money and watch it grow. Besides, I'd hate that sometimes in the near future a bill passes that forgive all federal loans and I miss out.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Not an attending yet, but I can answer some of your questions since I have already signed a contract and know how my budget is going to look like.

-your starting indebtedness.
High 400s

-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
None so far; initially due to too low of an income for being a med student the year prior, then working half the year, then COVID
However, very soon I'll start making PAYE calculated payments 200-300 monthly

-Salary as attending.
Mid 300's. possible high 300's with bonuses

-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
Planning to continue paying the bare minimum (through REPAYE)

-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
Most jobs in my fields, at least in the geography I'm looking into, don't qualify for PSLF unless I'm willing to take a massive pay cut (work at the VA or at a fully academic institution). Many "non-profit organizations" like Kaiser and HCA have a strange hiring set up that make it impossible to qualify for PSLF.
Therefore, my approach is to do REPAYE and hope to 1) my income continue to grow to a point that the calculated payment is high enough to make a large dent into the debt 2) whatever remaining balance after the 25 years is forgiven without taxation

I realize many people don't agree with my approach. Many economically savvy people would tell you to "live like a resident" until your loans are paid. I could do that and be done in less than 4 years, but I'm not interested. I'd rather invest my money and watch it grow. Besides, I'd hate that sometimes in the near future a bill passes that forgive all federal loans and I miss out.

I think this is great to have someone give the view from the "other side of the fence" with respect to the whole living like a resident situation. All of my mentors swear that is what is necessary.

Refresh my memory because I haven't perused the specialty forums in a few months. You are finishing up your neurology residency right? For some reason I thought you were going into a fellowship.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Yes neurology. I was planning on a fellowship but then decided to not do one since the job that I was looking into doesn’t require a fellowship (neurohospitalist)

 

[Metamorphosis.DO]

Not an attending yet, but I can answer some of your questions since I have already signed a contract and know how my budget is going to look like.

-your starting indebtedness.
High 400s

-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
None so far; initially due to too low of an income for being a med student the year prior, then working half the year, then COVID
However, very soon I'll start making PAYE calculated payments 200-300 monthly

-Salary as attending.
Mid 300's. possible high 300's with bonuses

-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
Planning to continue paying the bare minimum (through REPAYE)

-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
Most jobs in my fields, at least in the geography I'm looking into, don't qualify for PSLF unless I'm willing to take a massive pay cut (work at the VA or at a fully academic institution). Many "non-profit organizations" like Kaiser and HCA have a strange hiring set up that make it impossible to qualify for PSLF.
Therefore, my approach is to do REPAYE and hope to 1) my income continue to grow to a point that the calculated payment is high enough to make a large dent into the debt 2) whatever remaining balance after the 25 years is forgiven without taxation

I realize many people don't agree with my approach. Many economically savvy people would tell you to "live like a resident" until your loans are paid. I could do that and be done in less than 4 years, but I'm not interested. I'd rather invest my money and watch it grow. Besides, I'd hate that sometimes in the near future a bill passes that forgive all federal loans and I miss out.

mind if I ask which specialty? Thanks

I agree with the sentiment of not wanting to continue living like a resident. I will have given up my 20s entirely… living like s “resident“ for 11+ years.. I will want to start my life and while i won’t be wildly irresponsible, I will spend money And start my life.

 

[DarkHorizon]

318K at the time of med school graduation. No payments in residency, it multiplied to 425K in 6 years of post graduate training. Paid it off in 1.5 years as an attending. Being Ortho helped.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

318K at the time of med school graduation. No payments in residency, it multiplied to 425K in 6 years of post graduate training. Paid it off in 1.5 years as an attending. Being Ortho helped.

Maybe you also didn’t have to continue living like a resident

 

[DarkHorizon]

Maybe you also didn’t have to continue living like a resident

I continue to live like a resident, perhaps expanded our lifestyle a little more as far as eating out and whatnot. But not much more. Still driving the same car and plan to for another 5 years at least.

 

[Cornfed101]

I continue to live like a resident, perhaps expanded our lifestyle a little more as far as eating out and whatnot. But not much more. Still driving the same car and plan to for another 5 years at least.

Why now that you don’t have student loan debt? Are you just saving a lot?

 

[Metamorphosis.DO]

318K at the time of med school graduation. No payments in residency, it multiplied to 425K in 6 years of post graduate training. Paid it off in 1.5 years as an attending. Being Ortho helped.

Would you mind sharing your salary as attending ortho? Just for comparing possible time it will take in another specialty.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Would you mind sharing your salary as attending ortho? Just for comparing possible time it will take in another specialty.

Average ortho makes 650k. I started below that, but ramped up within months to be there. I make more than that now.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Why now that you don’t have student loan debt? Are you just saving a lot?

Just not into living large. Also, have a young family, so saving is a priority.

 

[calivianya]

mind if I ask which specialty? Thanks

I agree with the sentiment of not wanting to continue living like a resident. I will have given up my 20s entirely… living like s “resident“ for 11+ years.. I will want to start my life and while i won’t be wildly irresponsible, I will spend money And start my life.

I will say what living like a resident actually means varies greatly depending on where you live.

I lived in the SE prior to med school and had a job with a salary that was pretty close to resident pay, and my SO made about the same. Cracking the $100k mark on two incomes was *very* comfortable when my mortgage on my 3bdr house with a garage was ~$500. So, “living like a resident” on two incomes can look like lots of vacations per year, eating out as much as you want, and having a nice car. I bought a new low-ish end sports car while on a resident salary, which I’ve kept through med school.

So if you think you can’t have the sports car, the decent house, and the vacations on a resident salary, you’d be wrong. It all depends on where you end up living and whether or not there’s a second income in the picture.

 

[Calizboosted76]

I will say what living like a resident actually means varies greatly depending on where you live.

I lived in the SE prior to med school and had a job with a salary that was pretty close to resident pay, and my SO made about the same. Cracking the $100k mark on two incomes was *very* comfortable when my mortgage on my 3bdr house with a garage was ~$500. So, “living like a resident” on two incomes can look like lots of vacations per year, eating out as much as you want, and having a nice car. I bought a new low-ish end sports car while on a resident salary, which I’ve kept through med school.

So if you think you can’t have the sports car, the decent house, and the vacations on a resident salary, you’d be wrong. It all depends on where you end up living and whether or not there’s a second income in the picture.

Will throw in, children to that last line. Big factor.

 

[hfiso]

]

Not an attending yet, but I can answer some of your questions since I have already signed a contract and know how my budget is going to look like.

-your starting indebtedness.
High 400s

-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
None so far; initially due to too low of an income for being a med student the year prior, then working half the year, then COVID
However, very soon I'll start making PAYE calculated payments 200-300 monthly

-Salary as attending.
Mid 300's. possible high 300's with bonuses

-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
Planning to continue paying the bare minimum (through REPAYE)

-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
Most jobs in my fields, at least in the geography I'm looking into, don't qualify for PSLF unless I'm willing to take a massive pay cut (work at the VA or at a fully academic institution). Many "non-profit organizations" like Kaiser and HCA have a strange hiring set up that make it impossible to qualify for PSLF.
Therefore, my approach is to do REPAYE and hope to 1) my income continue to grow to a point that the calculated payment is high enough to make a large dent into the debt 2) whatever remaining balance after the 25 years is forgiven without taxation

I realize many people don't agree with my approach. Many economically savvy people would tell you to "live like a resident" until your loans are paid. I could do that and be done in less than 4 years, but I'm not interested. I'd rather invest my money and watch it grow. Besides, I'd hate that sometimes in the near future a bill passes that forgive all federal loans and I miss out.

@Ibn Alnafis MD i have the same theory on finance. with over 400k in student debt you can either live poor for a while and wait to invest orrrr live great for 20 years paying the bare minimum and invest wisely. in the long run you may pay a little more money overall but I think it is evened out because you start invested years earlier for retirement.

 

[Calizboosted76]

]



@Ibn Alnafis MD i have the same theory on finance. with over 400k in student debt you can either live poor for a while and wait to invest orrrr live great for 20 years paying the bare minimum and invest wisely. in the long run you may pay a little more money overall but I think it is evened out because you start invested years earlier for retirement.

Not to highjack OP thread but, how does paying the minimum on student loans affect the chances of you building your dream house/buying a vacation home etc. When does the debt to pay ratio become too high? Those are my only concerns with regarding to waiting to pay off student loan debt.

 

[hfiso]

Not to highjack OP thread but, how does paying the minimum on student loans affect the chances of you building your dream house/buying a vacation home etc. When does the debt to pay ratio become too high? Those are my only concerns with regarding to waiting to pay off student loan debt.

Good question. You can play with the numbers with the paye calculator the government gives you somewhere on google you can find it.

With that being said- federal loans at 6% roughly grow quickly. So if you’re someone with 400-600k in student loans you’re better off IMO to pay bare minimum, invest heavily, and either have loans forgiven through public service loan forgiveness or through the 20yr payment plan (although you’ll have a tax bomb)

Tax bomb argument- if you can’t afford 100-200k tax burden after having 20 years to prepare for it then you’re doing something wrong financially. On a doctor salary it’s very easy to stash 200k for that future bill.

Now if you’re becoming an Ortho doc and only have 200k or less in loans- pay them off ASAP and then invest

 

[AdjaDO]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm terrible at managing finances, always have been. Also, didn't have parents to help out with any of my education costs.

Debt upon finishing residency:
$120k undergrad (OOS tuition + 7 years interest). Mistake #1
$350k private med school. Mistake #2
Maxed out a few credit cards through the application/interview process
Didn't make PSLF payments throughout residency. Mistake #3

Salary: $315-320 ish

Currently 3 years into PSLF (could've been at 6 years now). I work at a not-for-profit hospital affiliated with one of our local med schools in a medium-sized midwestern city. My minimum payment when they resume in January will be $3500/mo.

I prioritized all of my highest interest rate debt first. During the first 3 years as an attending, managed to pay off all CC debt, car debt, paid down the house a bit. Saved 50k emergency fund. During the COVID interest/payment deferment, paid off all my private undergrad loans.

Currently, my only debt is what's left on the house and my med school federal loans for which I'm paying bare minimum doing the PSLF and banking on them being forgiven in 7 years. I have not been "living like a resident" by any means since being an attending. It helps that my spouse makes 6 figures as well and I don't have kids. Have taken several vacations, bought a new car (not a luxury car), done quite a few house renovations. I do help support my parents somewhat as well.

Several co-workers have told me to just pick up extra shifts and "work like I'm still in residency" and pay off my loans ASAP. However, even if I could pay them off tomorrow, I'd still end up paying more than I would if I stick it out on the PSLF for 7 more years. And since covid, our job is much more stressful than it was in residency and I need that work/life balance or I'm going to burn out sooner rather than later.

I'm sure financial savvy people are cringing at my poor financial planning, but I wanted to share my situation. We'll see in 7 years if this PSLF actually pans out

 

[hfiso]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm terrible at managing finances, always have been. Also, didn't have parents to help out with any of my education costs.

Debt upon finishing residency:
$120k undergrad (OOS tuition + 7 years interest). Mistake #1
$350k private med school. Mistake #2
Maxed out a few credit cards through the application/interview process
Didn't make PSLF payments throughout residency. Mistake #3

Salary: $315-320 ish

Currently 3 years into PSLF (could've been at 6 years now). I work at a not-for-profit hospital affiliated with one of our local med schools in a medium-sized midwestern city. My minimum payment when they resume in January will be $3500/mo.

I prioritized all of my highest interest rate debt first. During the first 3 years as an attending, managed to pay off all CC debt, car debt, paid down the house a bit. Saved 50k emergency fund. During the COVID interest/payment deferment, paid off all my private undergrad loans.

Currently, my only debt is what's left on the house and my med school federal loans for which I'm paying bare minimum doing the PSLF and banking on them being forgiven in 7 years. I have not been "living like a resident" by any means since being an attending. It helps that my spouse makes 6 figures as well and I don't have kids. Have taken several vacations, bought a new car (not a luxury car), done quite a few house renovations. I do help support my parents somewhat as well.

Several co-workers have told me to just pick up extra shifts and "work like I'm still in residency" and pay off my loans ASAP. However, even if I could pay them off tomorrow, I'd still end up paying more than I would if I stick it out on the PSLF for 7 more years. And since covid, our job is much more stressful than it was in residency and I need that work/life balance or I'm going to burn out sooner rather than later.

I'm sure financial savvy people are cringing at my poor financial planning, but I wanted to share my situation. We'll see in 7 years if this PSLF actually pans out

I would applaud your efforts thus far. Theres nothing terrible about your financial management. how many docs do you know that make as much or more than you, but practically live paycheck to paycheck? having a lakehouse, 3 new cars, and a million dollar home makes it pretty easy to stay poor for those folks. Continue stacking away for retirement and chipping away at the student loans and you cant lose.

 

[NITRAS]

Student loans: about 8k from undergrad. Medical school $88k (UTHSCSA was pretty much one of the cheapest schools in the country at the time. It isn’t as cheap as the $300 a year tuition one my 60 yo urology friend paid when he went there. (Called it the dollar a day medical school).
My wife had an inheritance of like $30k. My in laws bought the debt at like 1% interest and we paid them off in abut 2.5 years while in residency. My wife is an RD and together we made between $80k to mid $90k while in residency.

Looking back, i would not have had my in laws lend us the money.

My first job was $175k/year (was planning on fellowship) and currently about $300k. I work about 20 weeks a year.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

285k in debt right now and have 3 more years of residency. Ortho. Plan is to pay off within 1-2 years. Personality-wise, I hate having things over my head. Would rather “sacrifice” one more year. Sacrifice in quotes because even if you are paying off loans in 1-2 years your salary is still 4-5x what I have ever had. I’m sure I’ll be able to eat. Do what works for you though.

 

[NewtonPAC]

1st year Medical student, but I was a PA before going back to DO school. Between my wife and I who had 333k of debt (private PA and private accelerated nursing degree). We were able to pay off 175 in <2 years on an income around 225K a year. We had to make some sacrifices, but we were living probably on close to 100k a year, which still offered a pretty good lifestyle compared to most of our counterparts in their 20s and 30s. You can still live a pretty decent life and get out of debt as long as your are super intentional.

Just a note to those banking on the PSLF. 2.2% of people have qualified since the program was developed in 2007. So while when you run the numbers it sounds great in that you could end up paying back less than you borrowed, while also maximizing your retirement, you have to account that until they fix the program, people are overwhelming being rejecting and realizing they likely just wasted the last 10 years working at a job where they were not maximizing their income in order to qualify. Now their student loans have almost doubled and they have literally wasted 10 years of minimum payments, which probably equals somewhere around they borrowed in the first place.

If that does not convince you to run from the PSLF program consider this. Most of you wouldn't center your lives around applying to Neurosurgery or ENT with Step 1 score of 200. And 99% of ya'll on this board would tell that some to give up their life dream. Most would probably say good luck getting into residency period. Yet if you look at the match Data you still have a 30% chance of matching into neurosurgery, which is 15X greater than what the data currently says about the PSLF and for some reason we have bought the lie that we can just take out student loans without worrying and then we will be able to qualify for PSLF.

So while I am all for people who understand the risk andwant to make the educated risk of minimum payments on their student loans and maximize their retirement. Just please realize the crazy amount of risk you are putting on your financial future if you are banking on the PSLF to pay off your student loans. And if you arent willing to apply Neurosurgery with a Step 1 score of 200, you are probably making that decision to depend on the PSLF it is likely because you believe a lie that has been fed to us by medical schools in order to put us more at ease with the skyrocketing cost of attendance.

 

[hfiso]

@NewtonPAC
literally in the same boat as you. PA for 4 years before DO school. 1st year student here as well.

-about 80% of hospitals are non-profit so by luck of the draw you will end up working for a group that is considered non-profit. might as well utilize the PSLF while you qualify?

-to play devils advocate: pslf denies you.. now you're stuck banking on the PAYE plan capped at 10% of your gross income for 20 years. If you have 500k in debt, Id argue that the PAYE is better option for 20 years. Yes, you'll have a tax bomb, but you have 20 years to prepare for it, so a 200k bill isn't that big a deal when you're in your 60s with a few million in retirement. I plan on having a few rental properties supplementing my income so worst case scenario I have to sell one to pay a fat tax bill. Sure, 20 years is a long time to pay on a student loans, but 10 more years of living like a resident just to pay off the loans myself sounds worse to me.

 

[Maximus2020]

PSLF is a beast to watch, but if you are diligent, the number of qualifying payments continually updates on the website. So, in my opinion, seems impossible to reject if the website shows 120/120 payments qualify. Most of those who fail don't stay on top of re-certifying, sending in employment certs, etc., which is painful, though essential. It's a paper trail game. I could be wrong and will re-post in 4 years in this thread if I am rejected, but I have hope.

 

[Splenda88]

-your starting indebtedness.
332k (I am a MD. Debt could have been 250-260k. My school was not too expensive but I borrowed extra $$$)

-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
I did REPAYE and I was paying "interest only" for a year until Biden plan. So Principal has not changed. I made between 60-68k/yr during residency

-Salary as attending.
Been working as an attending for over 3 months now. Salary is 330k working 7 days on/off (potential to make ~400k/yr working 2 extra shifts/month on average)

-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
Don't understand this question. But if you are talking about the REPAYE program, my minimum payment was a little under <$150 during residency don't recall the exact number)

-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
I stopped making payment once the department of education announced Biden plan... Will refinance and probably take a 20-yr payment plan. Goal right now is trying amass a net worth of 1.2+ mil <5 yrs.

-Any other advise.
If you are not PASSIONATE about a specific specialty, do a short residency so you can start making money early. Almost all specialties in medicine can make 400k+/yr without getting burned out if you are not too "picky" about location

 

[NewtonPAC]

Splenda88, why not just pay it off in 2 years? Your after tax income would be atleast 250-280s a year if you picked up a couple shifts per month. Put down 15 K a month towards your loans you would be out in less than 2 years while still living on 100K a year after tax income which isn't terrible, far more than your resident income. Then start saving like crazy without a student loan payment for the next 20 years. Hell you could probably still be worth 1.2+ in 5 years, and this is you on a single income. You could easily be worth 1.2 mil in 5 years and get out of debt sooner if there was a Mr or Mrs. Splenda lol.

 

[Splenda88]

Splenda88, why not just pay it off in 2 years? Your after tax income would be atleast 250-280s a year if you picked up a couple shifts per month. Put down 15 K a month towards your loans you would be out in less than 2 years while still living on 100K a year after tax income which isn't terrible, far more than your resident income. Then start saving like crazy without a student loan payment for the next 20 years. Hell you could probably still be worth 1.2+ in 5 years, and this is you on a single income. You could easily be worth 1.2 mil in 5 years and get out of debt sooner if there was a Mr or Mrs. Splenda lol.

I want to be financially secure 1st in case something happens. I am a worst case scenario kind of person.

 

[NITRAS]

I want to be financially secure 1st in case something happens. I am a worst case scenario kind of person.

Not trying to push, but what does that mean to you? $50k? $100k?

You take any vacations, buy expensive cars, or buy a new house while saving up to be “financially secure?”

Just be honest with yourself about your priorities.

 

[Splenda88]

Not trying to push, but what does that mean to you? $50k? $100k?

You take any vacations, buy expensive cars, or buy a new house while saving up to be “financially secure?”

Just be honest with yourself about your priorities.

I have a family so if I drop dead in 3 yrs, my family will have some $$$ to survive financially for a few years.

I take vacations... Our cars are over 10+ yrs old. I have 2 homes in a different states from where I am working now (net equity of 550k+).

I plan to buy a new home in a few months and plan to buy something that cost no more than 250k.

My main point is that if I die, the loan dies with me and my family won't have to worry about it. On the other hand, if I die in 3 yrs while attempting to pay off that loan in that time frame, my spouse would have to enter the labor market in no time while trying to raise 2 kids.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have a family so if I drop dead in 3 yrs, my family will have some $$$ to survive financially for a few years.

I take vacations... Our cars are over 10+ yrs old. I have 2 homes in a different states from where I am working now (net equity of 550k+).

I plan to buy a new home in a few months and plan to buy something that cost no more than 250k.

My main point is that if I die, the loan dies with me and my family won't have to worry about it. On the other hand, if I die in 3 yrs while attempting to pay off that loan in that time frame, my spouse would have to enter the labor market in no time while trying to raise 2 kids.

Life insurance is the answer to this scenario. I got a $1 million 30 year term policy when I was 33 (I think), costs me less than $500/year. My job provides a 500k one as well. The only reason I don't have more is because my wife is also a physician. This is enough to pay off the house, all loans, set up a good college fund for the kids, and still have a fair bit left over.

If you want your wife to not have to work, just buy more. If you get a shorter policy you can get more coverage for the same/less money.

 

[Splenda88]

Life insurance is the answer to this scenario. I got a $1 million 30 year term policy when I was 33 (I think), costs me less than $500/year. My job provides a 500k one as well. The only reason I don't have more is because my wife is also a physician. This is enough to pay off the house, all loans, set up a good college fund for the kids, and still have a fair bit left over.

If you want your wife to not have to work, just buy more. If you get a shorter policy you can get more coverage for the same/less money.

I also got life insurance but not enough. I want to take my time to pay it down/off given how low (~3%%) the interest will be when I refinance. Also, I would like to enjoy life a little bit.

Once my net worth is over 1.5 mil (in today's dollar), I probably will be more aggressive in paying down student loan.

As I said, I am the kind of person who always try to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

 

[SLC]

Wondering if you could include;
-your starting indebtedness.
-If and how much you paid in residency and how much you earned.
-Salary as attending.
-What your minimum payments were if that’s what you did or are paying.
-What other programs/methods you used to pay off loans.
-Any other advise.

I know this is highly Personal, but I’m hoping the anonymity will help. I just would like to see real numbers of what to expect. Anticipating about 350k debt when I’m finished. Wanting to do primary care Idaho.

High 400k for starting indebtedness.

In residency, my salary was in the 40’s all 3 years, in New England, with 3->4 kids. I got on PSLF and IBR immediately and got 3yrs in where my monthly income adjusted payment was $0.00 monthly.

Salary as attending now is around $300k annually. I just switched offices and signed a new salary guarantee contract. My income will go up to the mid-upper 3’s once I’m off salary guarantee and on production pay (at my current wRVU monthly rate). I moonlight when I feel like it at a local urgent care (same company) and usually get 2-3k for a 12-14hour shift. So I’ve done that one or 2 Saturday’s per month since the weather got cold (I don’t do this when I’ve got other hobbies to pursue, which means summer and fall for me). But I can pay my student loans entirely with the moonlighting, and then some.

Payments now are around $2200 per month on IBR.

I got about $90k in total loan repayment at my last gig, which was rural. Now that I’m in a major metro, I don’t qualify for that any longer. I’m doing IBR, and PSLF. At this point I have about 4 yrs left on PSLF and I should qualify for forgiveness. My private loans are all payed off now, and we payed my wife’s school loans off too, so in 4yrs I should be completely student debt free.

 

[thepoopologist]

Psychiatry checking in, about 4 years out. According to Fedloan and Navient I've paid off 220k. I still have 360k left. I did it in part because I wanted to own a home and it lowered my DTI and in part because I didn't want to rely entirely on the promise of loan forgiveness considering my loan balance. I moonlit my first year as an attending then stopped, the extra time it took isn't worth it to me anymore. My house has about 200k equity in it and I'm under contract to buy a new build which will finish in a few months (rate and price are already locked). I have a 4/10 work schedule (more like 4/9) and have no interest in working beyond that. I should add the IBR payments when they restart will probably be applied 1/3 to principal and 2/3 to interest and thats fine with me.

 

[deleted721365]

Psychiatry checking in, about 4 years out. According to Fedloan and Navient I've paid off 220k. I still have 360k left. I did it in part because I wanted to own a home and it lowered my DTI and in part because I didn't want to rely entirely on the promise of loan forgiveness considering my loan balance. I moonlit my first year as an attending then stopped, the extra time it took isn't worth it to me anymore. My house has about 200k equity in it and I'm under contract to buy a new build which will finish in a few months (rate and price are already locked). I have a 4/10 work schedule (more like 4/9) and have no interest in working beyond that. I should add the IBR payments when they restart will probably be applied 1/3 to principal and 2/3 to interest and thats fine with me.

Am I reading this right, you had 580k in debt when you finished residency?

 

[thepoopologist]

It was slightly less than that however keep in mind interest was accruing at 2.5k/month while I was paying off 130k in accumulated interest from residency. Only after paying off the 130k was I hitting principal + interest per payment.

 

[Splenda88]

Average ortho makes 650k. I started below that, but ramped up within months to be there. I make more than that now.

Most (probably all) salary surveys say otherwise. That's why I have told some docs not put all their faith in these surveys.

 

[goldsummer]

At the end of residency, I had 263k in debt. Made minimum payments in residency.
Its currently 243k.

I had the entire amount in cash and could pay it off about 7 months in being an attending (I saved during residency too). I'm now at my 1 year mark as an attending. I havent paid it yet since the loan is currently not generating interest, so I'm learning about investing and weighing my options and will make a decision on how to proceed before May 1st when they resume.

Also, my employer pays 20k per year for 5 years, so I won't pay it down less than 80k to get the rest of that over the next 4 years.

I'm a Primary care doc.
Did not have any financial help by anyone along the way.

My best advice is to be frugal. In residency and as an attending. All the office staff have a better car than me lol.

 

[kelminak]

High 400k for starting indebtedness.

In residency, my salary was in the 40’s all 3 years, in New England, with 3->4 kids. I got on PSLF and IBR immediately and got 3yrs in where my monthly income adjusted payment was $0.00 monthly.

Salary as attending now is around $300k annually. I just switched offices and signed a new salary guarantee contract. My income will go up to the mid-upper 3’s once I’m off salary guarantee and on production pay (at my current wRVU monthly rate). I moonlight when I feel like it at a local urgent care (same company) and usually get 2-3k for a 12-14hour shift. So I’ve done that one or 2 Saturday’s per month since the weather got cold (I don’t do this when I’ve got other hobbies to pursue, which means summer and fall for me). But I can pay my student loans entirely with the moonlighting, and then some.

Payments now are around $2200 per month on IBR.

I got about $90k in total loan repayment at my last gig, which was rural. Now that I’m in a major metro, I don’t qualify for that any longer. I’m doing IBR, and PSLF. At this point I have about 4 yrs left on PSLF and I should qualify for forgiveness. My private loans are all payed off now, and we payed my wife’s school loans off too, so in 4yrs I should be completely student debt free.

How did your payments come out to zero during residency? I know that if you do residency at a non-profit those payments count toward PSLF, but if it comes out to zero, can you make a monthly payment of a dollar anyway to have a qualifying payment?

 

[AdjaDO]

1st year Medical student, but I was a PA before going back to DO school. Between my wife and I who had 333k of debt (private PA and private accelerated nursing degree). We were able to pay off 175 in <2 years on an income around 225K a year. We had to make some sacrifices, but we were living probably on close to 100k a year, which still offered a pretty good lifestyle compared to most of our counterparts in their 20s and 30s. You can still live a pretty decent life and get out of debt as long as your are super intentional.

Just a note to those banking on the PSLF. 2.2% of people have qualified since the program was developed in 2007. So while when you run the numbers it sounds great in that you could end up paying back less than you borrowed, while also maximizing your retirement, you have to account that until they fix the program, people are overwhelming being rejecting and realizing they likely just wasted the last 10 years working at a job where they were not maximizing their income in order to qualify. Now their student loans have almost doubled and they have literally wasted 10 years of minimum payments, which probably equals somewhere around they borrowed in the first place.

If that does not convince you to run from the PSLF program consider this. Most of you wouldn't center your lives around applying to Neurosurgery or ENT with Step 1 score of 200. And 99% of ya'll on this board would tell that some to give up their life dream. Most would probably say good luck getting into residency period. Yet if you look at the match Data you still have a 30% chance of matching into neurosurgery, which is 15X greater than what the data currently says about the PSLF and for some reason we have bought the lie that we can just take out student loans without worrying and then we will be able to qualify for PSLF.

So while I am all for people who understand the risk andwant to make the educated risk of minimum payments on their student loans and maximize their retirement. Just please realize the crazy amount of risk you are putting on your financial future if you are banking on the PSLF to pay off your student loans. And if you arent willing to apply Neurosurgery with a Step 1 score of 200, you are probably making that decision to depend on the PSLF it is likely because you believe a lie that has been fed to us by medical schools in order to put us more at ease with the skyrocketing cost of attendance.

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The reason that only 2.2% of people applying for PSLF have been successful is because they either didn't consolidate to the correct loan type, didn't certify their employment to make sure their employer qualified, or didn't have enough payments when they thought they did. The first year you could even apply for forgiveness was 2018. I'm sure in the early years (2008-10) there wasn't a lot of info provided on the strict rules, so people probably just made payments not realizing they weren't making "qualified" payments on the correct loan type, etc. Now, you literally have to certify your payments and your employment at least annually and it tells you on the website how many qualifying payments you have. Once you hit 120 payments, you can apply for forgiveness. And as far as I'm aware, you don't have to pay taxes on what's forgiven. Also, you don't have to sacrifice maximizing your income potential. I work for one of the largest and nicest healthcare systems in my city. It's a non-profit organization and affiliated with a med school, but our actual hospitalist group is not paid like academic hospitalists. We make good salary and more than most, if not all, other hospitalist groups in my city.

 

[Dral]

I was at about $250 to $270k. Didn't pay a dime during residency iirc (lived in NYC as a resident and barely kept my head above water). Paid off in about 2.5 or 3 years. The only debt I have right now are my mortgages.

 

[SLC]

How did your payments come out to zero during residency? I know that if you do residency at a non-profit those payments count toward PSLF, but if it comes out to zero, can you make a monthly payment of a dollar anyway to have a qualifying payment?

When your monthly IBR payment is calculated to be $0 because your income is so low, it’s pretty easy to make that payment.

 

[thepoopologist]

Based on this thread, I've learned I have the budgeting ability of a monkey.

 

[hfiso]

Based on this thread, I've learned I have the budgeting ability of a monkey.

people overcomplicate budgeting.

-live in a 400k home vs a 1.2 mil home
-drive a 15k car vs a 60k car
-drink $10 wine vs $90 wine
-eat out 1-2 times a week vs 4-5
-stay at $150 a night hotels vs $450
-stop buying sh&t on Amazon every night after dinner
-your kid doesn't need a new pair of Jordans every month

Amazing what simply living in a cheaper home/town does to your expendable income.

 

[Calizboosted76]

people overcomplicate budgeting.

-live in a 400k home vs a 1.2 mil home
-drive a 15k car vs a 60k car
-drink $10 wine vs $90 wine
-eat out 1-2 times a week vs 4-5
-stay at $150 a night hotels vs $450
-stop buying sh&t on Amazon every night after dinner
-your kid doesn't need a new pair of Jordans every month

Amazing what simply living in a cheaper home/town does to your expendable income.

This is so true. Im only a medical student however prior to getting into school my wife, daughter, and I were living on less than $30k a year (we were living with my mom and paying half of the bills.) Then once I got into school and seen the amount of money my school gives for living expenses etc (Over what we were living on before) I was like this is great.

A family member who is much older than me and already lived some of their life (and has came from a wealthy side of the family) wants to apply to medical school and they have a significant other and a daughter as well and they approached me asking how we survive and I gave them the exact number and say we actually live very comfortably and they were in shock. I remember them asking "How their daughter as supposed to do competitive cheerleading with that low of living expenses since they paid over $10,000 a month for it. LOL

 

[Calizboosted76]

This. I never understand how so many residents and doctors around me say they'll never be able to pay off their loans. I grew up poor so I'll have a larger than average debt when I graduate than most (undergrad, SMP, med school). I'm not pinching pennies but at the same time I'm not living lavishly, in the middle. I've done the math given my projected income in my desired specialty (I've seen REAL numbers from attendings I know) and my quality of life will multiply 10 folds and be I'll be able to afford anything I want.

Example:
-Great public schools vs $20-$60k/year private schools (K-12) - yes these exist within a 30 min radius of me and I met some of these kids in undergrad and most couldn't read the periodic table (they're in Caribb med schools or other careers now)
-$30k used luxury car (lexus, genesis, acura) until build a nice $1m+ nest then splurge on a $80k BMW
- home example like you said ($500k here gets you great public schools and 3000+ sqft)
- eat out at non-chain restaurants. There's an asian place near me that costs $9/entre and the atmosphere, food, and service is better than the chain asian place that charges $19
- your kid doesn't need a $2k birthday party ( I won't even go into details because of how ridiculous it is)
- $10 for a haircut now (at a school) and they do 90% as good of a Fade as the $50 place down the street and 100% the same job if I want a basic cut

This is what you and I are doing right now.

 

[Splenda88]

people overcomplicate budgeting.

-live in a 400k home vs a 1.2 mil home
-drive a 15k car vs a 60k car
-drink $10 wine vs $90 wine
-eat out 1-2 times a week vs 4-5
-stay at $150 a night hotels vs $450
-stop buying sh&t on Amazon every night after dinner
-your kid doesn't need a new pair of Jordans every month

Amazing what simply living in a cheaper home/town does to your expendable income.

I think there is a middle ground here. If you are making 200k as a physician, it's perfectly ok to live like that (using your spending illustration). But if you are making 500k+/yr and you have the average medical student debt (250k), you should not deprive yourself from enjoying nice things

eg.,
3000 sqft home that cost 600-650k in a nice neighborhood.
Hotel stay for $300/night when you are vacationing. There is a sea of a difference b/t a $150/night hotel vs. $300/night.
40-50k car
Eating out once a week etc...

 

[hfiso]

I think there is a middle ground here. If you are making 200k as a physician, it's perfectly ok to like that (using your spending illustration). But if you are making 500k+/yr and you have the average medical student debt (250k), you should not deprive yourself from enjoying nice things

eg.,
3000 sqft home that cost 600-650k in a nice neighborhood.
Hotel stay for $300/night when you are vacationing. There is a sea of a difference b/t a $150/night hotel vs. $300/night.
40-50k car
Eating out once a week etc...

I agree if you are financially secure like you mentioned. My example was just to show that you don't have to live off beans and rice as a physician to save money quickly and pay down debt.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

The best financial investment you can ever make is to marry a person who has similar financial goals as you. Otherwise, divorce can be extremely expensive that no matter how financial savvy you are, you'll always be behind.

I agree with avoiding private schooling, luxury cars, and compulsive online shopping.

Now regarding housing price, that really depends on where you live. My future job is located in a crap hole with trashy public schools. My options are to either send my kids to a private school (tuition is $30k/year) or live in a nearby affluent suburb where an average 4BR 2500sq foot house runs 700k in value. I'm choosing the later.

 

[TruthInMedEd]

I am lucky to have come from an earlier generation, so having $140K in debt as a primary care physician was easier to pay off 20 years ago. However, salaries were much lower then as well. I was on a 20yr payoff timeline until my spouse went back to work after our youngest was in school. We paid off the last 40% in 4 years by using all the extra "after tax" money to pay off loans. Make the debt your focus and live like a resident for a few years. IE: no fancy car, no big house, no expensive vacations, etc. Those can and will come with time if you practice a moderate degree of delayed gratification. Very similar approach to what many above have said.

 

[hallowmann]

Average ortho makes 650k. I started below that, but ramped up within months to be there. I make more than that now.

Damn, you're making double what I could dream to making, nice!

Now regarding housing price, that really depends on where you live. My future job is located in a crap hole with trashy public schools. My options are to either send my kids to a private school (tuition is $30k/year) or live in a nearby affluent suburb where an average 4BR 2500sq foot house runs 700k in value. I'm choosing the later.

Nice bro, glad things are moving along! I'm seeing the same issues with regards to school, cheapest I could get in a good school district big enough for my family is in the $700k range. Same houses were $500k 2 yrs ago, freaking CA...

Honestly, if you are saving (and ideally investing in retirement accounts) 10-20% of your income and another 10% are going to loans, you will be fine. Sure, that means living off of $75-$100k for even the lowest paid physicians, but that's way better than living like a resident. Most people can afford a mortgage, a car loan, occasional outing/vacation, and eating "out" once a week at a normal restaurant with that setup and be paying down their student loans.