Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

[Chibucks15]

I was talking about MSU DO, and Oklahoma State and Ohio University, whose med schools are DO.

but MD is really the only one that matters obviously...especially in a DO forum

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[jw3600]

5 pages too long to read. The answer is and will always be $$$.

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

Actually part of the reason for the merger is for MD students. Previously DO students could compete for MD residencies by taking the USMLE and doing well on it. MD students didn't know OMM and couldn't really take the COMLEX so they could not compete for DO residencies. This left some DO residencies were not being filled and MD students asking why they can't take those spots. It seems a bit advantageous to both DO and MD

 

[DelayedGratification]

Actually part of the reason for the merger is for MD students. Previously DO students could compete for MD residencies by taking the USMLE and doing well on it. MD students didn't know OMM and couldn't really take the COMLEX so they could not compete for DO residencies. This left some DO residencies were not being filled and MD students asking why they can't take those spots. It seems a bit advantageous to both DO and MD

Except these DO residencies will still require OMM

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Actually part of the reason for the merger is for MD students. Previously DO students could compete for MD residencies by taking the USMLE and doing well on it. MD students didn't know OMM and couldn't really take the COMLEX so they could not compete for DO residencies. This left some DO residencies were not being filled and MD students asking why they can't take those spots. It seems a bit advantageous to both DO and MD

No. The programs not being filled were generally FM spots and those programs will still most likely require OMM training.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

OK everyone, I'm sorry. My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school. The whole body of work of the student should play some role.

My story: Got into a DO program that gave you guaranteed admission so long as you meet with a counselor once per month, attend OMM meetings, and maintain a 3.5. MCAT waived and my high school hospital volunteering hours meant I didn’t have to do much volunteering and for research I had to meet with a research coordinator once to demonstrate my interest in research. That was it. The class size of this program was in the 40s-50s. Once I realized how lax this was and how vastly higher standards MDs required and what they offered via their match lists, I realized that’s where I wanted to be. At all the DO meetings, we were taught things that and that DOs used their touch and hands as if it was unique to the DO program. After my first year, I realized I didn’t want to be a part of it. I got a job in a research lab, volunteered, and shadowed. The next year I my schedule was brutal and my perfect GPA was ruined but I bounced back. I rarely spent any extended periods of time having fun and enjoying college as much as my friends. During the summer, I dedicated nearly all my time to the MCAT and another job I picked up and worked my hardest. I was devastated when I scored 65th percentile on the MCAT and took a while to bounce back. I got even more busy and less social (girls never really liked me anyways) and picked up a research job and a teaching position which helped review mcat material and between that, classes, I used a completely separate program to take a second mcat attempt and I scored in the 94th-96th percentile. I was ecstatic to get my score. If I wanted to go DO, I would have had to do none of that...literally. That’s the comparison in my mind that probably biases my thought when I compare MD vs DO standards, but I understand DO standards are getting higher and some are requiring more and more things. I could have coasted thru everything quite literally. I’m actually not that smart. I would actually say intelligence wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if I matched up more with DOs than my MD colleagues.

All that being said, if I see DOs in parallel positions to me, I see them as equals because I assume that they at some point experienced challenges at some point. The first doctor who allowed me to shadow him (surgical subspecialty) was a DO and I loved him. Two of my closest friends are DO physicians. As a future MD colleague, you have my respect and I will follow your orders just as I do with other MD consultants. Lastly, I hope a future merger helps and that DO admission standards are raised and perhaps even one day both degrees will be combined into one. Sorry for causing a pointless stir. I also denounce the DO hate that's going on in the IM Reddit pages. That's kind of vile.

That type of admissions game happens on both sides too. I personally know a couple people at an MD School (a pretty decent one too) neither of whom have MCAT scores (one bombed the MCAT and didn't grade it) with no undergrad research but good gpas and they were admitted. Both are also orm so they weren't given a diversity leg up. Does that mean that we have less respect for MD programs because one of them does that? No

 

[NurWollen]

The further along I get in medicine the more proud I get to be a DO, and the more frustrated.

Proud, because I see that I'm on the same level as everyone else in my class. We're a mixture of DO, US MD, and IMGs. We're all doing just fine. There is literally absolutely zero correlation between our performance as interns and where we went to med school.

This is also why I'm frustrated, because I see average MD grads do get interviews at programs and specialties DO grads don't easily get. It's asinine. DOs are every bit as good as MDs but too many people are stuck in an old-school heirarchical way of thinking to see that

What makes it worse is the AOA doesn't seem to do anything to mitigate that. They keep pushing how I'm different than an MD, rather than how I'm the same. Every newspaper article (like this one Details announced for Provo medical school) will throw out a one-liner about how DO schools "teach a whole-body view of healthcare," and every lay person who reads it will think I'm a chiroquack.

Now all that said, I'm still really glad that a DO school gave me the chance to become a physician, and it's still a great path. Yeah, there are some drawbacks, but work hard and you'll still find a world of opportunity open to you.

The haters who spend all day obsessing over prestige... I really don't care what they think.

Tl;dr
DOs are awesome
Not everyone recognizes that
The AOA isn't doing enough to fix that
DO is still a great option.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

No. The programs not being filled were generally FM spots and those programs will still most likely require OMM training.

You could be right but this was one of the reasons given from an actual DO residency program director so I had a pretty good source.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The further along I get in medicine the more proud I get to be a DO, and the more frustrated.

Proud, because I see that I'm on the same level as everyone else in my class. We're a mixture of DO, US MD, and IMGs. We're all doing just fine. There is literally absolutely zero correlation between our performance as interns and where we went to med school.

This is also why I'm frustrated, because I see average MD grads do get interviews at programs and specialties DO grads don't easily get. It's asinine. DOs are every bit as good as MDs but too many people are stuck in an old-school heirarchical way of thinking to see that

What makes it worse is the AOA doesn't seem to do anything to mitigate that. They keep pushing how I'm different than an MD, rather than how I'm the same. Every newspaper article (like this one Details announced for Provo medical school) will throw out a one-liner about how DO schools "teach a whole-body view of healthcare," and every lay person who reads it will think I'm a chiroquack.

Now all that said, I'm still really glad that a DO school gave me the chance to become a physician, and it's still a great path. Yeah, there are some drawbacks, but work hard and you'll still find a world of opportunity open to you.

The haters who spend all day obsessing over prestige... I really don't care what they think.

Tl;dr
DOs are awesome
Not everyone recognizes that
The AOA isn't doing enough to fix that
DO is still a great option.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Here’s the thing though, not to disparage how awesome you are (I am sure you are), but for a USMD grad to end up in a program with DOs and FMGs, there are often red flags (myself being an example) and their level of performence doesn’t really speak to the USMD student bodies as a whole.

Likewise, people who ended up in programs that had to scramble are probably aren’t the average USMD applicants (because the average USMDs dont end up in programs IMG heavy or needing to scramble)

Just food for thought. No meant to disrespect anyone’s hardwork.

 

[SLC]

Here’s the thing though, not to disparage how awesome you are (I am sure you are), but for a USMD grad to end up in a program with DOs and FMGs, there are often red flags (myself being an example) and their level of performence doesn’t really speak to the USMD student bodies as a whole.

Likewise, people who ended up in programs that had to scramble are probably aren’t the average USMD applicants (because the average USMDs dont end up in programs IMG heavy or needing to scramble)

Just food for thought. No meant to disrespect anyone’s hardwork.

I think you missed the most important of that post you quoted:

The haters who spend all day obsessing over prestige... I really don't care what they think.

Do you talk this way to your DO colleagues? Do you enjoy reminding them that the only reason you’re slumming it down there with them is because you had a red-flag?

Again I ask, do you even read the stuff you post on here. It’s pretty douchey.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I think you missed the most important of that post you quoted:



Do you talk this way to your DO colleagues? Do you enjoy reminding them that the only reason you’re slimming it down there with them is because you had a red-flag?

Again I ask, do you even read the stuff you post on here. It’s pretty douchey.

Actually, I just make objective statements. (Like the average USMD applicant don’t end up in a program that has many IMGs). As you can see I try very carefully to avoid personal attacks because I am pretty sure it’s against the TOS.

Unlike you.

The whole discussion started because some students seem to think that there is absolutely no difference between a DO and a MD education (i.e separate but equal)

I respectfuly refute that. The DO and MD educations are different and not precisely equivalent, using my experience as someone who has been more than 4 years out of med school. This sentiment is echoed by other people as well.

The COCA and AOA clearly side with me, so is the match outcome data every year.

Again, I absolutely do not want to make any personal attack or speak ill of any specific indivdual.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Here’s the thing though, not to disparage how awesome you are (I am sure you are), but for a USMD grad to end up in a program with DOs and FMGs, there are often red flags (myself being an example) and their level of performence doesn’t really speak to the USMD student bodies as a whole.

Likewise, people who ended up in programs that had to scramble are probably aren’t the average USMD applicants (because the average USMDs dont end up in programs IMG heavy or needing to scramble)

Just food for thought. No meant to disrespect anyone’s hardwork.

I thought the program you were in was your 2nd choice?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I thought the program you were in was your 2nd choice?

Not for residency.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Not for residency.

My mistake

 

[statlin98]

Here’s the thing though, not to disparage how awesome you are (I am sure you are), but for a USMD grad to end up in a program with DOs and FMGs, there are often red flags (myself being an example) and their level of performence doesn’t really speak to the USMD student bodies as a whole.

Likewise, people who ended up in programs that had to scramble are probably aren’t the average USMD applicants (because the average USMDs dont end up in programs IMG heavy or needing to scramble)

Just food for thought. No meant to disrespect anyone’s hardwork.

The bolded is not true. There's at least one DO in many very good residency programs. All you have to do is look at a DO school's match list and find the good matches- there are always at least several good matches even at the "worst" DO schools, and many at the "good" ones.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

OK everyone, I'm sorry. My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school. The whole body of work of the student should play some role.

My story: Got into a DO program that gave you guaranteed admission so long as you meet with a counselor once per month, attend OMM meetings, and maintain a 3.5. MCAT waived and my high school hospital volunteering hours meant I didn’t have to do much volunteering and for research I had to meet with a research coordinator once to demonstrate my interest in research. That was it. The class size of this program was in the 40s-50s. Once I realized how lax this was and how vastly higher standards MDs required and what they offered via their match lists, I realized that’s where I wanted to be. At all the DO meetings, we were taught things that and that DOs used their touch and hands as if it was unique to the DO program. After my first year, I realized I didn’t want to be a part of it. I got a job in a research lab, volunteered, and shadowed. The next year I my schedule was brutal and my perfect GPA was ruined but I bounced back. I rarely spent any extended periods of time having fun and enjoying college as much as my friends. During the summer, I dedicated nearly all my time to the MCAT and another job I picked up and worked my hardest. I was devastated when I scored 65th percentile on the MCAT and took a while to bounce back. I got even more busy and less social (girls never really liked me anyways) and picked up a research job and a teaching position which helped review mcat material and between that, classes, I used a completely separate program to take a second mcat attempt and I scored in the 94th-96th percentile. I was ecstatic to get my score. If I wanted to go DO, I would have had to do none of that...literally. That’s the comparison in my mind that probably biases my thought when I compare MD vs DO standards, but I understand DO standards are getting higher and some are requiring more and more things. I could have coasted thru everything quite literally. I’m actually not that smart. I would actually say intelligence wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if I matched up more with DOs than my MD colleagues.

All that being said, if I see DOs in parallel positions to me, I see them as equals because I assume that they at some point experienced challenges at some point. The first doctor who allowed me to shadow him (surgical subspecialty) was a DO and I loved him. Two of my closest friends are DO physicians. As a future MD colleague, you have my respect and I will follow your orders just as I do with other MD consultants. Lastly, I hope a future merger helps and that DO admission standards are raised and perhaps even one day both degrees will be combined into one. Sorry for causing a pointless stir. I also denounce the DO hate that's going on in the IM Reddit pages. That's kind of vile.

I think this has more to do with the fact that you were in a guaranteed admission program than the fact that it was a DO school. The whole point of guaranteed admission programs is that it's easier to get into medical school by being a part of them. There are many MD programs that do the same exact thing; my undergrad had one and I watched many of my friends that were in them coast by and not do anything besides maintain the minimum required GPA. No shadowing, no volunteering, no research. This is a problem with guaranteed admission programs, not DO schools.

 

[deleted831695]

Here’s the thing though, not to disparage how awesome you are (I am sure you are), but for a USMD grad to end up in a program with DOs and FMGs, there are often red flags (myself being an example) and their level of performence doesn’t really speak to the USMD student bodies as a whole.

I mean, many DOs go to AOA programs where MDs obviously can't match. And y'know, if there wasn't outdated views and bias, there would be a lot more DOs at university-programs in all specialties, more akin to average USMD matches. Not to mention that DOs are a minority.

 

[Peach Newport]

OK everyone, I'm sorry. My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school. The whole body of work of the student should play some role.

My story: Got into a DO program that gave you guaranteed admission so long as you meet with a counselor once per month, attend OMM meetings, and maintain a 3.5. MCAT waived and my high school hospital volunteering hours meant I didn’t have to do much volunteering and for research I had to meet with a research coordinator once to demonstrate my interest in research. That was it. The class size of this program was in the 40s-50s. Once I realized how lax this was and how vastly higher standards MDs required and what they offered via their match lists, I realized that’s where I wanted to be. At all the DO meetings, we were taught things that and that DOs used their touch and hands as if it was unique to the DO program. After my first year, I realized I didn’t want to be a part of it. I got a job in a research lab, volunteered, and shadowed. The next year I my schedule was brutal and my perfect GPA was ruined but I bounced back. I rarely spent any extended periods of time having fun and enjoying college as much as my friends. During the summer, I dedicated nearly all my time to the MCAT and another job I picked up and worked my hardest. I was devastated when I scored 65th percentile on the MCAT and took a while to bounce back. I got even more busy and less social (girls never really liked me anyways) and picked up a research job and a teaching position which helped review mcat material and between that, classes, I used a completely separate program to take a second mcat attempt and I scored in the 94th-96th percentile. I was ecstatic to get my score. If I wanted to go DO, I would have had to do none of that...literally. That’s the comparison in my mind that probably biases my thought when I compare MD vs DO standards, but I understand DO standards are getting higher and some are requiring more and more things. I could have coasted thru everything quite literally. I’m actually not that smart. I would actually say intelligence wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if I matched up more with DOs than my MD colleagues.

All that being said, if I see DOs in parallel positions to me, I see them as equals because I assume that they at some point experienced challenges at some point. The first doctor who allowed me to shadow him (surgical subspecialty) was a DO and I loved him. Two of my closest friends are DO physicians. As a future MD colleague, you have my respect and I will follow your orders just as I do with other MD consultants. Lastly, I hope a future merger helps and that DO admission standards are raised and perhaps even one day both degrees will be combined into one. Sorry for causing a pointless stir. I also denounce the DO hate that's going on in the IM Reddit pages. That's kind of vile.

I get your perspective. Here’s mine.

I had a 34 mcat (in my year, a 94th percentile score which I worked my a** off to get). I had a 3.2 UG gpa. I had great ECs and clinical work. Applied to all DO schools. 1 interview, with a rejection. I did a 1.5 year SMP/MBS affiliated with a medical school, with a 4.0 GPA and tied with 2 other people in my SMP class of 90 for #1 class rank. Again, I worked my a** off to do that well.

I didn’t have any red flags, save an underage drinking misdemeanor from a decade before.

When I applied, I got 6 interviews total and a single acceptance at a DO school. I asked for feedback afterward and it was always positive. I did everything right, except for have a low undergrad GPA. The other 2 people from my SMP had lower MCATs than me and both had multiple MD acceptances. According to SDN, I should have had at least my pick of the DOs.

But that’s not how med school admission works. It frustrates me a lot that I’ll always be branded as a subpar slacker for having a DO degree, despite all the work I put in “just” to have an admission to a single DO school.

 

[Dwan]

The bolded is not true. There's at least one DO in many very good residency programs. All you have to do is look at a DO school's match list and find the good matches- there are always at least several good matches even at the "worst" DO schools, and many at the "good" ones.

That isn't his point. The fact is, what DOs consider competitive is very different from what MDs would consider competitive. For example, in my field (IM), I think most DOs would agree programs such as University of Iowa and Albert Einstein (Montefiore) are strong, and they are. These programs are probably higher quality than the program with many DOs and IMGs the other poster was referring to. However, they are not particularly competitive for us. Applicants from my (MD) school get interviews at these places with below average step scores (210-220s) and no significant research/m3 honors. I can imagine the criteria for DOs is not anywhere the same. Sure, not everyone ranks their list based on the most competitive program they can get, and some strong MDs may end up at "lower" programs, but on average, the DO student will have far superior credentials in the same residency. My school is one that takes DOs and the ones I knew had step scores ranging 240-260s, while the MDs had 200-220s. I do think the DO residents here were superior in knowledge to the MDs, but you can see how this isn't a fair comparison of MD vs DO students as a whole (comparing the top DOs to the bottom MDs). Nor is it fair for the differences in admission criteria to be this drastic, but as of now, this is the reality for many residencies.

 

[NurWollen]

I get your perspective. Here’s mine.

I had a 34 mcat (in my year, a 94th percentile score which I worked my a** off to get). I had a 3.2 UG gpa. I had great ECs and clinical work. Applied to all DO schools. 1 interview, with a rejection. I did a 1.5 year SMP/MBS affiliated with a medical school, with a 4.0 GPA and tied with 2 other people in my SMP class of 90 for #1 class rank. Again, I worked my a** off to do that well.

I didn’t have any red flags, save an underage drinking misdemeanor from a decade before.

When I applied, I got 6 interviews total and a single acceptance at a DO school. I asked for feedback afterward and it was always positive. I did everything right, except for have a low undergrad GPA. The other 2 people from my SMP had lower MCATs than me and both had multiple MD acceptances. According to SDN, I should have had at least my pick of the DOs.

But that’s not how med school admission works. It frustrates me a lot that I’ll always be branded as a subpar slacker for having a DO degree, despite all the work I put in “just” to have an admission to a single DO school.

This is such a great point that really doesn't get made enough on SDN. There is so much randomness built into this whole game. Nothing can be taken for granted. We're lucky to have every opportunity that comes to us.

This is gonna sound corny, but I've found I'm a lot happier when I focus on being grateful for what I've achieved than on the ways I've been screwed over.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[GypsyHummus]

Should have gotten an A in Orgo 1 and 2!

Undergrad GPA stays with you for the rest of your life. I was told to always have it on my CV and resume.

I get your perspective. Here’s mine.

I had a 34 mcat (in my year, a 94th percentile score which I worked my a** off to get). I had a 3.2 UG gpa. I had great ECs and clinical work. Applied to all DO schools. 1 interview, with a rejection. I did a 1.5 year SMP/MBS affiliated with a medical school, with a 4.0 GPA and tied with 2 other people in my SMP class of 90 for #1 class rank. Again, I worked my a** off to do that well.

I didn’t have any red flags, save an underage drinking misdemeanor from a decade before.

When I applied, I got 6 interviews total and a single acceptance at a DO school. I asked for feedback afterward and it was always positive. I did everything right, except for have a low undergrad GPA. The other 2 people from my SMP had lower MCATs than me and both had multiple MD acceptances. According to SDN, I should have had at least my pick of the DOs.

But that’s not how med school admission works. It frustrates me a lot that I’ll always be branded as a subpar slacker for having a DO degree, despite all the work I put in “just” to have an admission to a single DO school.

 

[Lawpy]

Actually, I just make objective statements. (Like the average USMD applicant don’t end up in a program that has many IMGs). As you can see I try very carefully to avoid personal attacks because I am pretty sure it’s against the TOS.

Unlike you.

The whole discussion started because some students seem to think that there is absolutely no difference between a DO and a MD education (i.e separate but equal)

I respectfuly refute that. The DO and MD educations are different and not precisely equivalent, using my experience as someone who has been more than 4 years out of med school. This sentiment is echoed by other people as well.

The COCA and AOA clearly side with me, so is the match outcome data every year.

Again, I absolutely do not want to make any personal attack or speak ill of any specific indivdual.

Yeah I have to agree with this, which is why I always say, if you are given an option between US MD and US DO, always go US MD. Always. There is zero reason to hamstring yourself and eliminating some career options before starting school.

Program directors at competitive residencies and at competitive specialties care about where you go for medical school. They have no reason to pick a good DO applicant when there are already many good MD applicants to select. Program directors are much more familiar with USMLE, NBME shelf exams, quality of MD rotations etc. Why should they spend the time understanding how COMLEX works, how to assess DO rotation quality etc. on someone they might not even interview? Program directors at competitive places have to deal with significantly more applications than spots available, so the competition becomes a seller’s market and things like MD vs DO do matter very much.

The same extends for any specialty and any residency. Generally an MD applicant is viewed stronger than a comparable DO applicant because program directors know it’s harder to get into MD schools than DO schools and take that into account. They also know LCME standards are stricter than COCA standards. But at less competitive places, these differences may not matter as much even if program directors have preference for MD applicants.

US MD and US DO are two separate education pathways that are structurally different. US MD students have access to more resources, networking, clinical opportunities etc because these are required by LCME standards for any MD school that’s accredited. And program directors know that.

Yes it’s unfortunate that those who went to DO because that’s their only option of becoming a doctor are getting screwed over by program directors at competitive places on mere grounds of going DO. But this is the nature of competition and cognitive biases unfortunately do play a role on who gets interviewed and matched. And this is why you apply broadly to less competitive places to avoid going unmatched.

This is why I maintain that there is no reason for continued differences and separation between the two pathways, and the best measure is for DO to be reabsorbed and reintegrated into MD, with OMM as an elective for anyone interested. COMLEX and DO shelves will be phased out and students will have access to good opportunities. The ACGME AOA residency merger is the start of the process. Unfortunately, as long as AOA/COCA continue to demand for DO separation due to historical and political reasons, such as protecting its “unique identity” (whatever that means), the structural problems will continue to persist.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Yeah I have to agree with this, which is why I always say, if you are given an option between US MD and US DO, always go US MD. Always. There is zero reason to hamstring yourself and eliminating some career options before starting school.

Program directors at competitive residencies and at competitive specialties care about where you go for medical school. They have no reason to pick a good DO applicant when there are already many good MD applicants to select. Program directors are much more familiar with USMLE, NBME shelf exams, quality of MD rotations etc. Why should they spend the time understanding how COMLEX works, how to assess DO rotation quality etc. on someone they might not even interview? Program directors at competitive places have to deal with significantly more applications than spots available, so the competition becomes a seller’s market and things like MD vs DO do matter very much.

The same extends for any specialty and any residency. Generally an MD applicant is viewed stronger than a comparable DO applicant because program directors know it’s harder to get into MD schools than DO schools and take that into account. They also know LCME standards are stricter than COCA standards. But at less competitive places, these differences may not matter as much even if program directors have preference for MD applicants.

US MD and US DO are two separate education pathways that are structurally different. US MD students have access to more resources, networking, clinical opportunities etc because these are required by LCME standards for any MD school that’s accredited. And program directors know that.

Yes it’s unfortunate that those who went to DO because that’s their only option of becoming a doctor are getting screwed over by program directors at competitive places on mere grounds of going DO. But this is the nature of competition and cognitive biases unfortunately do play a role on who gets interviewed and matched. And this is why you apply broadly to less competitive places to avoid going unmatched.

This is why I maintain that there is no reason for continued differences and separation between the two pathways, and the best measure is for DO to be reabsorbed and reintegrated into MD, with OMM as an elective for anyone interested. COMLEX and DO shelves will be phased out and students will have access to good opportunities. The ACGME AOA residency merger is the start of the process. Unfortunately, as long as AOA/COCA continue to demand for DO separation due to historical and political reasons, such as protecting its “unique identity” (whatever that means), the structural problems will continue to persist.

I think the reason why I started posting on this thread is the revisionist view taken by some students. They believe that there is zero difference between a MD and a DO education. This is not a correct view, and reality in the away elective selection, residency and fellowship matches, even employment argue against that view.

Merger is a good thing going forward because it eliminate some clearly not up to par AOA residencies where people could have “backdoored” into being a dermatologist by working for private offices for free.

The next logical step will be eliminating COCA and AOA and bring everything under ACGME and LCME with osteopathic medicine becoming its own ACGME subspecialty.

 

[Lawpy]

I think the reason why I started posting on this thread is the revisionist view taken by some students. They believe that there is zero difference between a MD and a DO education. This is not a correct view, and reality in the away elective selection, residency and fellowship matches, even employment argue against that view.

Merger is a good thing going forward because it eliminate some clearly not up to par AOA residencies where people could have “backdoored” into being a dermatologist by working for private offices for free.

The next logical step will be eliminating COCA and AOA and bring everything under ACGME and LCME with osteopathic medicine becoming its own ACGME subspecialty.

And I definitely support this, even though it probably won't happen because of historical and political reasons on part of AOA/COCA.

 

[Cath Up]

I think the reason why I started posting on this thread is the revisionist view taken by some students. They believe that there is zero difference between a MD and a DO education. This is not a correct view, and reality in the away elective selection, residency and fellowship matches, even employment argue against that view.

Merger is a good thing going forward because it eliminate some clearly not up to par AOA residencies where people could have “backdoored” into being a dermatologist by working for private offices for free.

The next logical step will be eliminating COCA and AOA and bring everything under ACGME and LCME with osteopathic medicine becoming its own ACGME subspecialty.

And I definitely support this, even though it probably won't happen because of historical and political reasons on part of AOA/COCA.

Were this to happen in the distant future, what areas of medicine could osteopathic physicians practice in in your ideal world? Family medicine? PM&R? I am curious where you think that should go.

...both of you.

 

[Goro]

Can you knuckleheads, for once, stop making this into a DO vs MD dick measuring contest and stick to the OP's question?????

Or is that just too much to ask?

 

[Chibucks15]

Can you knuckleheads, for once, stop making this into a DO vs MD dick measuring contest and stick to the OP's question?????

Or is that just too much to ask?

Literally every thread devolves to this now

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

Can you knuckleheads, for once, stop making this into a DO vs MD dick measuring contest and stick to the OP's question?????

Or is that just too much to ask?

Thank you Goro

 

[Lawpy]

Were this to happen in the distant future, what areas of medicine could osteopathic physicians practice in in your ideal world? Family medicine? PM&R? I am curious where you think that should go.

...both of you.

If by osteopathic you mean having some way to practice OMM, it's probably primary care fields like family medicine, general IM and general peds. Maybe this is good for PM&R and sports medicine.

Can you knuckleheads, for once, stop making this into a DO vs MD dick measuring contest and stick to the OP's question?????

Or is that just too much to ask?

Literally every thread devolves to this now

Idk the discussion is related to the merger and what will happen in the future. And I don't see this as a debate or a "dick measuring contest", because there is nothing to debate. We're just discussing the reality of the situation, which some apparently find it frustrating to accept.

People can complain that PD's are being mean and unfair against DO's but from what I'm seeing, much of the current problems are due to historical and political stubbornness on part of AOA/COCA. And I don't see anyone here defending their stubbornness.

 

[Carbon090]

Can you knuckleheads, for once, stop making this into a DO vs MD dick measuring contest and stick to the OP's question?????

Or is that just too much to ask?

Was going to post something just like this. But SDN gon SDN.

 

[Cath Up]

If by osteopathic you mean having some way to practice OMM, it's probably primary care fields like family medicine, general IM and general peds. Maybe this is good for PM&R and sports medicine.

Oooh you guys were just suggesting that allopathic medicine consume DO medicine via future merger, then having some sort of osteopathic principles & practices specialty to retain some aspect of osteopathic medicine. I misunderstood.

 

[Lawpy]

Oooh you guys were just suggesting that allopathic medicine consume DO medicine via future merger, then having some sort of osteopathic principles & practices specialty to retain some aspect of osteopathic medicine. I misunderstood.

A standalone osteopathic specialty is possible but I have no idea how it would work. I think the principles work well with already existing specialties.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Or just put omm in physical therapy where it belongs.

 

[Peach Newport]

Should have gotten an A in Orgo 1 and 2!

Undergrad GPA stays with you for the rest of your life. I was told to always have it on my CV and resume.

Haha actually I had As in the orgos. My Cs were in pottery, differential equations, and “not having an undiagnosed genetic disease.”

 

[SLC]

A standalone osteopathic specialty is possible but I have no idea how it would work. I think the principles work well with already existing specialties.

There already is a stand-alone OMM specialty.

 

[A-A-RON]

As someone who works in Navy medicine, I just wanted to remind you all that the military has it's own match system that merges MD/DO together. This has been the case for decades without any issues for either party. There's no need to make mountains out of mole hills people. Stop being so neurotic, you will be fine.

 

[ortnakas]

I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.

5 pages in, going to give my thoughts on the original question:
1) Better overall GME quality. There's some shady AOA residencies out there. Losing the spots is rough, but graduating better doctors is a good thing in the long run.
2) Not having to pick between matches. As it stands, many of us end up with interviews in both systems and then have to make a tough call. A lot of the time, this means giving up your reach programs to feel more secure in your safety programs, and never knowing if you would have gotten the reach one or not (with zero data to back it up I believe that a lot of DO students choose the AOA match now just to be risk averse).
3) A voice and a vote with the ACGME. Until now, many DOs were being trained in the ACGME residencies but without any representation in the powers that be.
4) Fellowship eligibility. DOs would have lost eligibility to ACGME fellowships without the merger. I admittedly know very little about the quality of the current AOA fellowships, but I know that the quantity isn't there, so this would have been a hug hit to the DOs who want to be specialists.

The merger is still painful right now-- it's even harder to choose what match to do, some of the specialty programs are closing/getting squeezed out, and there's fewer AOA FM/other PCP spots out there for the students who really needed the safety net-- but for the majority of us who fall in the area between gunning for ortho and struggling to pass, I think it will be a benefit in the long run.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Except these DO residencies will still require OMM

So I talked to a few merged FM programs at my schools hosp day. The ones I have talked to indicate that as the 'OMM' certification is a separate thing now, they will only require DO's to do OMM, but then we get to choose whether we want to pay extra for that OMM cert (lol, sure) but would also be the only one eligable. So I don't think it will actually be a barrier. They may get some DO 'philosophy but in the end the requirement doesn't seem to actually be panning out.

 

[Neopolymath]

So I talked to a few merged FM programs at my schools hosp day. The ones I have talked to indicate that as the 'OMM' certification is a separate thing now, they will only require DO's to do OMM, but then we get to choose whether we want to pay extra for that OMM cert (lol, sure) but would also be the only one eligable. So I don't think it will actually be a barrier. They may get some DO 'philosophy but in the end the requirement doesn't seem to actually be panning out.

So these guys are going to force DOs to continue to do OMM in this program even if they don't want the future cert, but not the MD students that might end up there??? I'm guessing I'm misunderstanding.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So I talked to a few merged FM programs at my schools hosp day. The ones I have talked to indicate that as the 'OMM' certification is a separate thing now, they will only require DO's to do OMM, but then we get to choose whether we want to pay extra for that OMM cert (lol, sure) but would also be the only one eligable. So I don't think it will actually be a barrier. They may get some DO 'philosophy but in the end the requirement doesn't seem to actually be panning out.

Our programs are requiring MD applicants do have 200 hours or something like that similar to what the DO students will have. This includes our competitive surgical programs. Basically a way to tell MDs, “thanks but no thanks.” (Direct quote from one of our surgery PDs)

 

[BorntobeDO?]

So these guys are going to force DOs to continue to do OMM in this program even if they don't want the future cert, but not the MD students that might end up there??? I'm guessing I'm misunderstanding.

Nope, you understood correctly.

Our programs are requiring MD applicants do have 200 hours or something like that similar to what the DO students will have. This includes our competitive surgical programs. Basically a way to tell MDs, “thanks but no thanks.” (Direct quote from one of our surgery PDs)

We may have only 200 hours of lab and class time, but I doubt any DO is able to pass without studying it at all, seems like a small barrier compared to what we go thru. If programs really wanted to tell the MDs no thanks they would require COMLEX also.

Ironically that would probably be seen as 'unfair' and yet DO's have it done to them all the time with residencies forcing them to take USMLE.

 

[Neopolymath]

Nope, you understood correctly.

We may have only 200 hours of lab and class time, but I doubt any DO is able to pass without studying it at all, seems like a small barrier compared to what we go thru. If programs really wanted to tell the MDs no thanks they would require COMLEX also.

Ironically that would probably be seen as 'unfair' and yet DO's have it done to them all the time with residencies forcing them to take USMLE.

Considering a huge majority of DO's are trying to avoid OMM once they graduate, I can't imagine many people being happy to hear that lol.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Our programs are requiring MD applicants do have 200 hours or something like that similar to what the DO students will have. This includes our competitive surgical programs. Basically a way to tell MDs, “thanks but no thanks.” (Direct quote from one of our surgery PDs)

So what is it? Do you want a unified GME system where everyone is on the even place or a special protectionist system?

The current system have people screaming “we must not be treated any differently” while demanding separate and different treatment.

My understanding of the DO distinction system is that everyone is allowed to apply. If MDs match they will take a OMM course.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My understanding of the DO distinction system is that everyone is allowed to apply. If MDs match they will take a OMM course.

Doesn’t mean programs can’t throw those apps out for not having OMM training.

So what is it? Do you want a unified GME system where everyone is on the even place or a special protectionist system?

I see no reason why former DO programs can’t throw out applications of MD applicants. MD programs do it all the time. I want a system where if I have the same application as the guy next to me that I am given the same consideration that he is. I want the system that you pretend that we have. You guys like to pretend that “oh the clinical rotations” or “oh the students just aren’t academically equal, look at the entrance stats” are reasons and the truth is that is simply complete crap. Harvard could have a DO degree and programs would still throw their apps away simply because of the letters. When the idea that, “if we have a DO it makes our program look worse” is done away with and that crap ends, yeah we can have an equal system.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Doesn’t mean programs can’t throw those apps out for not having OMM training.



I see no reason why former DO programs can’t throw out applications of MD applicants. MD programs do it all the time. I want a system where if I have the same application as the guy next to me that I am given the same consideration that he is. I want the system that you pretend that we have. You guys like to pretend that “oh the clinical rotations” or “oh the students just aren’t academically equal, look at the entrance stats” are reasons and the truth is that is simply complete crap. Harvard could have a DO degree and programs would still throw their apps away simply because of the letters. When the idea that, “if we have a DO it makes our program look worse” is done away with and that crap ends, yeah we can have an equal system.

Oh ok. Sounds like you are fine with the existing system then, where DOs are shut out of competitive specialities and programs and MDs won’t be able to do optho in a 2 person program where surgical volumes needed to be augmented with international experiences.

Either way, if I end up in the graduate medical education business as expected, I will certainly propose to ACGME that DO residencies who isn’t actually matching any MD at all to be violating the spirit of the merger and their graduates should not be elligible to train in ACGME fellowships (the stipulation that started the current merger).

 

[SLC]

Oh ok. Sounds like you are fine with the existing system then, where DOs are shut out of competitive specialities and programs and MDs won’t be able to do optho in a 2 person program where surgical volumes needed to be augmented with international experiences.

And out come the true colors! (They’ve been out for a while, but this is pretty flagrant)

Either way, if I end up in the graduate medical education business as expected, I will certainly propose to ACGME that DO residencies who isn’t actually matching any MD at all to be violating the spirit of the merger and their graduates should not be elligible to train in ACGME fellowships (the stipulation that started the current merger).

And I’m sure you’ll do the same for MD institutions not matching any DO’s, yes?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

And out come the true colors! (They’ve been out for a while, but this is pretty flagrant)



And I’m sure you’ll do the same for MD institutions not matching any DO’s, yes?

Before you point fingers, I am not ok with the existing system as indicated by my post history. I argued for a single, unified medical school system just earlier in this thread.

I am more than happy to advocate the same, as in banning MD resident grads from partaking in DO fellowships if the MD residency do not take DOs. It’s only fair.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Either way, if I end up in the graduate medical education business as expected, I will certainly propose to ACGME that DO residencies who isn’t actually matching any MD at all to be violating the spirit of the merger and their graduates should not be elligible to train in ACGME fellowships (the stipulation that started the current merger).

I am more than happy to advocate the same, as in banning MD resident grads from partaking in DO fellowships if the MD residency do not take DOs. It’s only fair.

Your ignorance lately is downright astounding. It’s like you don’t even research before you post horse manure. “DO fellowships”? It’s all ACGME now, and there are exceptionally few “DO” fellowships. If you were actually trying to advocate the same you would propose that any program that isn’t giving actual consideration to DOs punished heavily.

The point of the merger was to get all programs on the same accreditation level and up to the same standards. The spirit of the merger was never “to make DO programs consider MDs.” Never. They have no obligation to even look at a single MD application. Not one bit. It’s the exact same concept that you all defend that we say is dumb when programs simply screen out all DO applications. Our ortho program will never match an MD because the PD says that he knows that even the most stellar DOs don’t get honest consideration at a lot of MD programs and they are going to continue to make it possible for those students to get into the field they deserve.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Oh ok. Sounds like you are fine with the existing system then, where DOs are shut out of competitive specialities and programs and MDs won’t be able to do optho in a 2 person program where surgical volumes needed to be augmented with international experiences.

Either way, if I end up in the graduate medical education business as expected, I will certainly propose to ACGME that DO residencies who isn’t actually matching any MD at all to be violating the spirit of the merger and their graduates should not be elligible to train in ACGME fellowships (the stipulation that started the current merger).

No what he’s saying is unless our MD counterparts are going to give each applicant the exact same chance, MD or DO, then there is nothing wrong with a handful of former DO residencies saying no to MDs. I’m sure he feels, and correct me if I’m wrong AnatomyGrey, that if MD residencies start taking qualified DOs at the same rate as qualified MDs for ALL specialties then those former AOA residencies should stop denying MD applicants.

Side note, the merger was not started by the notion of not being allowed to train in ACGME fellowships. It was started due to the federal government no longer wanting to fund two separate graduate medical education organizations. The ACGME simply saw an opening to pressure the AOA into the merger quicker by threatening them with the fellowship restrictions.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ortnakas]

Either way, if I end up in the graduate medical education business as expected, I will certainly propose to ACGME that DO residencies who isn’t actually matching any MD at all to be violating the spirit of the merger and their graduates should not be elligible to train in ACGME fellowships (the stipulation that started the current merger).

I actually agree with you that
MD PDs can not look at DO applications if that’s their choice— I don’t like it, but we’re not a protected class, so they can draw the line there if they choose to— but it’s a double standard to say DO PDs can’t do the same thing.

And even if a program were found to have actually discriminatory application review practices, banning their residents from fellowship doesn’t seem like a fair or appropriately targeted punishment.